From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 12:42 PM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n083' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #83 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Friday, August 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 083 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:51:02 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Howdy Sports Fans... I have my prop bolts, and they are a bit too long. I didn't estimate the width of the spinner backup plates too well. I was originally going to order the correct length prop bolt as opposed to using washers. My thoughts that with washers, and a wooden prop the bolts might have more of a tendancy to loosen. Since there are more materials expanding and contracting with heat between the bolt head and the nut. On the other hand, I think I have to order more washers anyway so I probably should order bolts while I'm at it. Any thoughts? -- Ross KRNET Admin mailto:rossy@teleport.com KRNET Website http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:12:01 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: KRNET Website Improvment Project Ohhh I knew I forgot somthing. PLEASE email me your latest KRNET website links. My page is woefully out of date, and I have to sift through hundreds of emails to find them all. Send them to me directly mailto: rossy@teleport.com. I want to add WEBPAGES to the DIRECTORY. -- Ross - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:18:40 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Gap seals Ron Lee wrote: > > At 21:30 97/8/26 -0700, you wrote: > >I deceided to make gap seals for the rudder and elevator and I wanted to > >share the method. It is looking really good and gives a nice finished > >look and should help reduce drag. > > > >I layed up two plies of 6 oz cloth on a piece of mylar (waxed paper would > >probably work as well) After it cured, I had a thin and flexible strip > >of rigid tape. I cut it to 1.75 inches wide and sanded the edges smooth. > > These were then glued to the horizontal and vertical stabilizers so that > >there was a 0.75 inch overlap on the rudder and elevator, both sides. > >Then I feathered with dry micro. > > > Pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!! Por favor. Sounds interesting. I would have never > thought of using BID (I assume) in such a manner. I also assume that the > micro went on the FORWARD side of the strip (the stationary surface) > > Ron You are correct about BI, I should have said so. Yes, the micro is on the front. Unfortunatly, no e-camera or scanner yet. The extra money goes into the plane. - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:27:48 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Wing Incidence Donald Reid wrote: > > JEHayward@aol.com wrote: > > << I have been advised by a very reliable source > > to not change the 3.5 deg difference. Be advised that lowering the wing > > incidence will reduce your overnose visibility. > > > I thought I remembered seeing a post a while back about KR's flying nose > > low at cruise/high speed because the incidence was set where it was. Did I > > misunderstand something? > > > > Jim Hayward > > This is a for what it is worth. I ran some numbers on the KR wing > incidence ... I found my calc notes and here are the actual numbers that I came up with, your mileage may vary. At a 900 # gross weight, calculated fuselage level cruise speed altitude TAS 1000 ft 132.5 mph 3000 ft 136.5 mph 5000 ft 140 mph 7000 ft 145 mph 5000 ft, 180 mph -1.5 degree nose low 1000 ft, 180 mph -1.8 degree mose low 100 ft, 200 mph -2.3 degree nose low - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:35:40 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: KR: KR Gathering Blues Well I guess it was bound to happen. I just found out that I will not be able to get to the Gathering until Friday afternoon. I was informed at work that I will be attending a gen fam course for the =46okker F-100 September 15-19 and I can't change it. So I guess I won't make it to the Gathering until about 5:00 PM on Friday. I guess attending some is better than nothing. My wife and I will be driving to Perry after work and then we will drive up again on Saturday morning. Hope this doesn't ruin my chances to get a ride in a KR!! I updated the people who will be attending on the Gathering web page. As of now there are 29 people that are planning to attend and this is only the people that are online and I guess that there are plenty of people who are attending that aren't online. I can't wait to meet everyone and to see some KR's. Brian J Bland bbland@busprod.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9904 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:46:26 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Blues At 01:35 AM 8/28/97 GMT, you wrote: I guess that there are plenty of people who are attending that aren't online. I can't wait to meet everyone and to see some KR's. > I am willing to bet 95% of the KR family is NOT online. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:25:36 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Wing Trim At 09:46 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >What are people using to attach the trim pieces that cover the crack >between the wing and the wing stub? > >I made trim pieces out of 2 layers of 5oz. BID 3" wide. I would like to >find something that does not create drag, and is not permanant, but will >hold reliably. Seems that I heard someone mention using silicone to glue >them down. Anyone had good luck doing this? > >Tom Crawford >tomc@afn.org >Gainesville, FL > I made my wing gap seals out of two layers of 6oz. bid fiberglass cloth and they are held on GE Household Silicone. I glued small wood blocks, that fit between the wing and wing stubs, to the inside side of the wing gap seals to help keep the alignment while the silicone dried. Also I use a 'pop' rivit at rear end of the seal on the top and one on the bottom. I have been flying with the same siliconed sealed wing gap seals for four years....no problems at all. The first KR Gathering that I flew to I used vinyl tape to cover wing gap, but after about 10 hours of flight time it would start to separate from the wing. At least I made to the GATHERING. Bobby Muse(N122B) bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:24:48 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Wing Gap Seal Tip(Thanks) Bobby, Thanks for the wing gap seal tip. I was thinking of trying vinyl tape which I think is what Sailplane jockeys use, but they seal up much smaller gaps I think. I think I will make seals similarly out of 2-BID as you have done... when I get to that point. -- Ross Bobby Muse wrote: > > At 09:46 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: > >What are people using to attach the trim pieces that cover the crack > >between the wing and the wing stub? > > > >I made trim pieces out of 2 layers of 5oz. BID 3" wide. I would like to > >find something that does not create drag, and is not permanant, but will > >hold reliably. Seems that I heard someone mention using silicone to glue > >them down. Anyone had good luck doing this? > > > >Tom Crawford > >tomc@afn.org > >Gainesville, FL > > > > I made my wing gap seals out of two layers of 6oz. bid fiberglass cloth and > they are held on GE Household Silicone. I glued small wood blocks, that fit > between the wing and wing stubs, to the inside side of the wing gap seals to > help keep the alignment while the silicone dried. Also I use a 'pop' rivit > at rear end of the seal on the top and one on the bottom. I have been > flying with the same siliconed sealed wing gap seals for four years....no > problems at all. > > The first KR Gathering that I flew to I used vinyl tape to cover wing gap, > but after about 10 hours of flight time it would start to separate from the > wing. At least I made to the GATHERING. > > Bobby Muse(N122B) > bmuse@mindspring.com > Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:22:12 -0400 (EDT) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Wing attachment fittings In a message dated 97-08-27 11:05:50 EDT, you write: << A real concern to me in this area is the tendency for everyone to over torque the wing attach fitting. It's real easy to overtighten these bolts due to the fact that they are so close together. By the time you tighten the whole row and then go back to the start..the first one is loose. JUST GO SLOW! >> Anybody have any guess what the torq should be in this application? Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Santa Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:45:18 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Wing Gap Seal Tip(Thanks) At 08:24 PM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >Bobby, > Thanks for the wing gap seal tip. I was thinking of trying vinyl >tape which I think is what Sailplane jockeys use, but they seal up >much smaller gaps I think. I think I will make seals similarly out >of 2-BID as you have done... when I get to that point. > -- Ross Ross I think it was Adrean Carter who made his gap covers by applying duct tape to an area just inboard of the gap and laid up a ply or two on top of it, when cured he peeled it off and had a seal that fit perfectly! I think I will give this a try when the time comes or I may just wedge some foam in the gap and glass over it to permanently seal the whole thing. A few builders have done this and in my opinion it looks mucho better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:25:56 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: Ross is a pilot Ron, I found some unanswered email in my inbox... from July! At any rate, if I'm ever crossing into your area.. probably in the KR, I will look you up. -- Regards Ross Ron Lee wrote: > > At 13:08 97/7/26 -0700, you wrote: > But I'm now a pilot, > > > > > -- Regards > > Ross > > YEA! (psst Ross...just between you an me, could you let me know > if you will ever be flying around Colorado Springs? I need a vacation > and that would be a good time) > > Ron - -- Ross Youngblood KRNET-L administrator mailto:rossy@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:40:14 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Need Advise On Cutting Finished Skin This is a response to an old thread... but I had to add my 2 cents. I too am part of the "can't live without a Dremel tool" club. Cutting disc's on the Dremel make short work of cutting plywood. -- Ross Tom Crawford wrote: > > Ron Lee wrote: > > > > I need to make some mods to 133RM and am curious about the > > best way to cut the side plywood. I will use a fine jig saw > > blade, probably use masking tape on the outside, but need to > > avoid splintering the inside surface. > > > > Ron "Repair it with duct tape" Lee > > Ron, > > I would try a Dremel tool with the cutting disc. > > Tom "cant live without my Dremel tool" Crawford > tomc@afn.org > Gainesville,FL > N262TC - -- Ross Youngblood KRNET-L administrator mailto:rossy@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:33:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Krwr1@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Gap seals Hi I had a friend that made gap seals with layers of glass,cut to size,and screwed to the wing for aileron seals. After a period of time he came close to loseing the KR because the seals warped, and on take off it was all he could do to get the aircraft back on the ground . This happened over a two week period when he diden't fly,on the bottom of the wing. Be a good idea to keep a good check on any such seals. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:19:48 -0600 From: "jeb" Subject: Re: KR: Wing Gap Seal Tip(Thanks) Looks are one thing but, what about inspections? I like the idea of checking torque on attach fittings > > Ross I think it was Adrean Carter who made his gap covers by applying duct > tape to an area just inboard of the gap and laid up a ply or two on top of > it, when cured he peeled it off and had a seal that fit perfectly! I think > I will give this a try when the time comes or I may just wedge some foam in > the gap and glass over it to permanently seal the whole thing. A few > builders have done this and in my opinion it looks mucho better. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com > http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand > > \ / > _\/\/_ > _____/_//\\_\_____ > > F-117 > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:58:50 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Re: krnet Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Ross Youngblood > It's been some time since I updated my KR webpage and I thought since > it shows up in "Landings" now, we should spiff it up a bit. > > > Please send me via EMAIL or SNAILMAIL the following stuff: > > 1) A MUG shot of yourself. I break mirrors! > Also I would appriciate comments & suggestions on how to clean > up the website. Does anyone else get frustrated with the "FORMS" > method? Also state what type of browser you use. I am a Netscape > fan, so AOL & MS Explorer users may not be getting their moneys worth. > One of your pages has a blue, left side border, which looks reaaly neat. I can't read the writing below it. Try a lighter shade of blue. (I should talk. I don't even try to embellish my own site.) - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:10:00 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Ross Youngblood > > I have my prop bolts, and they are a bit too long. I didn't estimate > the width of the spinner backup plates too well. I was originally going > to order the correct length prop bolt as opposed to using washers. > My thoughts that with washers, and a wooden prop the bolts might have > more of a tendancy to loosen. Since there are more materials expanding > and contracting with heat between the bolt head and the nut. > On the other hand, I think I have to order more washers anyway so > I probably should order bolts while I'm at it. Any thoughts? > My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At Oshkosh, I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit is a bad idea? or is it? Anyone know of a good place to get 'em, price etc... - - Cary - (ps: I used steel bolts to hold the prop on while I fitted everything up. I wasn't intending to use them for a real installation, but did I ever hear from the local builders about using them. Good to know they care.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:47:26 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Prop Bolts Cary, ACS (Aircraft Spruce) didn't have the Prop bolts I needed as "Prop bolts", then they also didn't have the drilled head & shank bolts either. I think I finally went to Columbia Aeromotive, and had them drill some AN-5 bolts in the head for me. But.. they are a smidge too long. -- Ross Cary Honeywell wrote: > > Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca > Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ > KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml > > ---------- > > From: Ross Youngblood > > > > I have my prop bolts, and they are a bit too long. I didn't estimate > > the width of the spinner backup plates too well. I was originally going > > to order the correct length prop bolt as opposed to using washers. > > My thoughts that with washers, and a wooden prop the bolts might have > > more of a tendancy to loosen. Since there are more materials expanding > > and contracting with heat between the bolt head and the nut. > > On the other hand, I think I have to order more washers anyway so > > I probably should order bolts while I'm at it. Any thoughts? > > > > My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At Oshkosh, > I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that > they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit > is a bad idea? or is it? > > Anyone know of a good place to get 'em, price etc... > > - Cary - > > (ps: I used steel bolts to hold the prop on while I fitted everything up. I > wasn't intending to use them for a real installation, but did I ever hear > from the local builders about using them. Good to know they care.) - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:21:21 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 01:10 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At Oshkosh, >I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that >they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit >is a bad idea? or is it? > >Anyone know of a good place to get 'em, price etc... > >- Cary - > >(ps: I used steel bolts to hold the prop on while I fitted everything up. I >wasn't intending to use them for a real installation, but did I ever hear >from the local builders about using them. Good to know they care.) > > I think aviation approved (FAA PMA) prop bolts are just AN bolts that are hardened to greater than 145,000 psi. I don't think the hardness (should be standard an5 or better) of the bolt is as important as having the right length here, Too short and you are placing shear loads on the threaded portion and if there are no drive lugs on the hub the bolts will shear! As for a place to get them, what's wrong with AS&S or Wicks? BTW does anyone out there know what the bolt pattern is for the Rotax Prop Hubs? (Rotax 914) ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:52:12 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Micheal Mims wrote: > > I think aviation approved (FAA PMA) prop bolts are just AN bolts that are > hardened to greater than 145,000 psi. I don't think the hardness (should be > standard an5 or better) of the bolt is as important as having the right > length here, Too short and you are placing shear loads on the threaded > portion and if there are no drive lugs on the hub the bolts will shear! As > for a place to get them, what's wrong with AS&S or Wicks? ACS advertises "PROP bolts" which have additional holes for safety wire drilled, these can be $$$. One step down from this is AN-5 bolts with both head & shank drilled. These can be difficult to get. Wicks did not have the length and ACS also had to back order them. Since I don't have a jig to drill safety wire holes, a local Aircraft bolt place did it for me. However if they drill the bolt heads, it is not acceptable for standard aircraft. Since I was building an experimental they said they would go ahead and do it for me. -- Ross - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:26:14 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 11:52 AM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >ACS advertises "PROP bolts" which have additional holes for safety >wire drilled, these can be $$$. One step down from this is AN-5 bolts >with both head & shank drilled. These can be difficult to get. On a real airplane they screw into the hub and the heads are safetied, on half the experimentals at Chino the bolts heads are on the back side of the hub protruding forward. The prop is slid on the bolts along with the crush plate then the lock nuts. No safety wire is used. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:02:07 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: KRNET Howdy KR Netters. I have updated my website a bit. I tried to clear up the pages concerning joining KRNET, and subscribing to the regular newsletter. Also, I have included the"Yearbook" of thumbnail people & project photos with links to members webpages. If you are missing... let me know! If I don't get to it this week I may not be able to for some time. -- Ross KRNET Admin rossy@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:15:53 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: New Web feature Check out http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm Click on KR net members (in the left pane), or the KRNET YEARBOOK in the main window. Be patient, it's worth the wait. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:18:12 -0400 (EDT) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question In a message dated 97-08-28 13:25:37 EDT, Cary wrote: << My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At Oshkosh, I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit is a bad idea? or is it? >> Don't cut and rethread AN bolts. The threads (I believe) are "rolled" originally, not cut. Field cut threads on an AN bolt will likely lead to a premature failure, especially on prop bolts. This would turn your KR into a propless, very quiet, KR glider (hopefully not worse). The only sound you would then hear is that of your own puckering... Fly without a fancy interior or a cheap paint job, but don't cut cost on prop bolts. In helicopters, the rotor bolt is called a Jesus bolt (you can guess why - if it fails, you could get to meet the gent)! Prop bolts come under that same classification. Randy (the chicken) Stein BSHADR@aol.com Santa Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:01:15 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question BSHADR@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-28 13:25:37 EDT, Cary wrote: > > << My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At > Oshkosh, > I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that > they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit > is a bad idea? or is it? >> > > Don't cut and rethread AN bolts. The threads (I believe) are "rolled" > originally, not cut. Field cut threads on an AN bolt will likely lead to a > premature failure, especially on prop bolts. > > Randy (the chicken) Stein > BSHADR@aol.com > Santa Monica, CA This is correct in both statements. The threads are rolled so as not to introduce a stress riser (a place to break), and if you cut new threads, they will fracture at the grip/thread interface. - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:03:10 -0400 From: kim kroes Subject: Re: KR: New Web feature Ross Youngblood wrote: > > Check out http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > > Click on KR net members (in the left pane), or the KRNET YEARBOOK > in the main window. > > Be patient, it's worth the wait. > > -- Ross Ross, Really liked the page with the mug shots. It's really nice to put a face with the names I keep reading. I didn't realize until I saw the pictures that Mark Langford and Cary Honeywell are twins :) Will try to send a picture of myself and my project for the book......Nice Work kim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:08:17 -0400 From: kim kroes Subject: Re: KR: New Web feature Ross Youngblood wrote: > > Check out http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > I went back and looked some more. There seems to have been a lot of inbreeding among the KR crowd. These people all look the same! By the way, I have a jacket just like that one! kim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:25:55 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: New Web feature At 09:08 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > I went back and looked some more. There seems to have been a lot of >inbreeding among the KR crowd. These people all look the same! By the way, I have a jacket just like that one! >kim > And even if you take his picture down "He'll be Back!" I sent the picture to Ross telling him it was me! Yes Arnold is building a KR! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:47:23 -0500 From: Ernest Koppe Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 01:10 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca >Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ >KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml > >---------- >> From: Ross Youngblood >>> >My original prop bolts were too short for the new installation. At Oshkosh, >I found some AN-5 bolts that I thought would do the job. Problem is that >they extend 2" longer than I want. I assume re-cutting the threads to suit >is a bad idea? or is it? > Hi Guys, I was "lurking" in on the messages and I haven't seen a reply to the "bad idea" question above...It is a bad idea! Cutting new threads on a bolt creates all sorts of nasty stress points. Prop bolts in particular are subject to extreme amounts of vibration and stress. If the right length for your prop is not available, go for the longer size and use washers to take up the difference. I think it's great that the KRs still attract the kind of people that take the time to help other builders...I joined EAA in the early 70's and have been around a lot of builders and planes...none compare to the KRs and their builders. Makes me think about getting back to sanding foam and mixing epoxy....Naaah, I think I'll leave that to the current crop of KR builders... Looking forward to the KR Gathering! Ernie Koppe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:34:13 -0400 (EDT) From: JEHayward@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Wing attachment fittings In a message dated 97-08-28 09:11:59 EDT, you write: << < A real concern to me in this area is the tendency for everyone to over torque the wing attach fitting. It's real easy to overtighten these bolts due to the fact that they are so close together. By the time you tighten the whole row and then go back to the start..the first one is loose. JUST GO SLOW! >> Anybody have any guess what the torq should be in this application? Randy Stein >> Tony Bingelis' book "Sportplane Construction Techniques" has a table on page 27 for the different sizes. Looks like it's around 95 to 110 but he has a qualifier on the next page saying "Tighten the nut until you see the washer slightly emboss itself into the wood. Stop right there. Do not continue to tighten the nut until the washer sinks all the way into the wood surface!" He also lists his source as the FAA. Jim Hayward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:51:40 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Pictures Well I convinced my wife to come over and help me drag the project out of the garage for the first time and of course I brought along my digital camera. You can go to the home page and: http://pw2.netcom.com/~mimsmand/fuselage3.html to see the latest. I haven't really worked on the KR for three or four weeks, but now with the cooler temperatures in the evenings its time to get back to work! Woo Hoo! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:40:19 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: Wing attachment fittings Randy Stein wrote: > Anybody have any guess what the torq should be in this application? The plans say 23-25 inch pounds. If were on the Shuttle, it'd say "23-25 IN-LBS ABOVE RUNNING TORQUE" which I can't measure with my torque wrench, so I just used 25. This compensates for the friction of turning the locknut. I think they should be torqued several times, to allow the wood to "creep". I torqued them three or four times before they all stayed "tight" and then retorqued the next day. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford - ---------- > From: BSHADR@aol.com > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: Wing attachment fittings > Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 11:22 AM > > In a message dated 97-08-27 11:05:50 EDT, you write: > > << A real concern to me in this area is the tendency for everyone to over > torque the wing attach fitting. It's real easy to overtighten these bolts > due to the fact that they are so close together. By the time you tighten > the whole row and then go back to the start..the first one is loose. JUST > GO SLOW! > >> > > Anybody have any guess what the torq should be in this application? > > Randy Stein > BSHADR@aol.com > Santa Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:41:17 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: KR: Sanding foam & mixing epoxy >Hi Guys, > >I was "lurking" in on the messages and I haven't seen a reply to the = "bad >idea" question above...It is a bad idea! Cutting new threads on a bolt >creates all sorts of nasty stress points. Prop bolts in particular are >subject to extreme amounts of vibration and stress. If the right length >for your prop is not available, go for the longer size and use washers = to >take up the difference.=20 > >I think it's great that the KRs still attract the kind of people that = take >the time to help other builders...I joined EAA in the early 70's and = have >been around a lot of builders and planes...none compare to the KRs and >their builders. Makes me think about getting back to sanding foam and >mixing epoxy....Naaah, I think I'll leave that to the current crop of KR >builders... > >Looking forward to the KR Gathering! > >Ernie Koppe > > =20 Ernie, Do you think it is a good idea for you to attend the gathering? It might just make you get back to sanding foam and mixing epoxy!!!! :) I hope to see you there. Brian J Bland Claremore, OK bbland@busprod.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9904 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:46:09 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:26:14 -0700 Micheal Mims writes: >At 11:52 AM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >>ACS advertises "PROP bolts" which have additional holes for safety >>wire drilled, these can be $$$. One step down from this is AN-5 bolts >>with both head & shank drilled. These can be difficult to get. > >On a real airplane they screw into the hub and the heads are safetied, on >half the experimentals at Chino the bolts heads are on the back side of the >hub protruding forward. The prop is slid on the bolts along with the crush >plate then the lock nuts. No safety wire is used. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. The problem with this method is that the fiberlock self locking nuts are only supposed to be used a limited number of times (I think 3) before they are no longer considered to be good for self locking purposes. It is also common to see the application as Mike describes above with drilled shanks on the bolts and castillated nuts, then a single loop of safety wire through all six bolts or six separate cotter pins pinning the nuts to the bolts. That's the way my '39 J-4 Cub and my first Champ were done. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:27:22 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Rotax 914 Bolt pattern Page 208 of the LEAF catalog says 1/4" or 8 mm holes 1" center sfaht, 75 mm bolt pattern (6 holes) 8mm holes use 1.25 mm threads and 1/4 " uses NF threads. email : leaf@kktv.com phone: 1-719-683-5323 (I can see them from my house) Ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:55:34 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: KR2S Cowling If anyone out there has the KR2S cowling could you measure the distance from the firewall to the opening for the prop hub for me next time you get a chance? Thanks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:25:10 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 11:52 AM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Micheal Mims wrote: >> >> I think aviation approved (FAA PMA) prop bolts are just AN bolts that are hardened to greater than 145,000 psi. As for a place to get them, what's wrong with AS&S or Wicks? > >ACS advertises "PROP bolts" which have additional holes for safety >wire drilled, these can be $$$. One step down from this is AN-5 bolts >with both head & shank drilled. These can be difficult to get. Wicks >did not have the length and ACS also had to back order them. Since I >don't have a jig to drill safety wire holes, a local Aircraft bolt place >did it for me. However if they drill the bolt heads, it is not >acceptable for standard aircraft. Since I was building an experimental >they said they would go ahead and do it for me. > > -- Ross > Why are wanting to purchase prop bo;ts with the bolt head or the shank drilled for safety wire? Safety wire and cotter pins are used whenever the bolt or nut is subject to rotation. The prop bolts are not subject to rolation in the bolt hole. Just purchase the proper size AN bolt and a self-locking nut and use standard graduated torque procedures. Be sure to radius the prop flange and/or prop plate holes to accept the radius under the head of the of the prop bolt to insure that the head of the prop bolt sets flat without binding. Never use a self-locking nut on a bolt that has has a drilled shank. I replace the self-locking nut each time the prop is removed and during each Annual. Bobby Muse(N122B) bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:51:49 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Donald Reid > BSHADR@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-28 13:25:37 EDT, Cary wrote: > > > Don't cut and rethread AN bolts. The threads (I believe) are "rolled" > > originally, not cut. Field cut threads on an AN bolt will likely lead to a > > premature failure, especially on prop bolts. > > This is correct in both statements. The threads are rolled so as not to > introduce a stress riser (a place to break), and if you cut new threads, they > will fracture at the grip/thread interface. > Thanks all. Now I have to find the right bolts. Bit of a pain up here in Canada. Most FBOs (etc) don't stock these items and I don't have the books for A,S&S or Wicks. My Wag Aero mag doesn't give lenghts either. Sigh! - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:48:12 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Re: KR: New Web feature Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: kim kroes > Ross Youngblood wrote: > > > > Check out http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > > > > Click on KR net members (in the left pane), or the KRNET YEARBOOK > > in the main window. > Really liked the page with the mug shots. It's really nice to put a face > with the names I keep reading. I didn't realize until I saw the pictures > that Mark Langford and Cary Honeywell are twins :) Will try to send a > picture of myself and my project for the book......Nice Work > kim > > Jeez Ross! Ok Mark. The gig is up now. I thought we agreed that you wouldn't wear the sunglasses. Now I have to take all tha padding out and get rid of the accent! Think of all the movie contracts that we will never get. Oh, well. I guess I'll be able to fit 2 people in the cockpit now... Who's going to tell Maria? Those Kennedys can be a real pain when they're riled. :-) - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:02:50 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Re: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: BSHADR@aol.com > This would turn your KR into a > propless, very quiet, KR glider (hopefully not worse). The only sound you > would then hear is that of your own puckering... > > Fly without a fancy interior or a cheap paint job, but don't cut cost on prop > bolts. In helicopters, the rotor bolt is called a Jesus bolt (you can guess > why - if it fails, you could get to meet the gent)! Prop bolts come under > that same classification. > Well said. Mind you, if the Jesus bolt failed on me, my language would be somewhat less than religeous in context and would not endear me to the gentleman referenced. - - Cary - ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #83 ****************************