From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 12:42 PM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n084' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #84 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Saturday, August 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:57:51 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Re: Pictures Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Micheal Mims > Well I convinced my wife to come over and help me drag the project out of > the garage for the first time and of course I brought along my digital > camera. You can go to the home page and: > Looking good. Gives me ideas for further retrofit if I get time or money. The canope looks very slick. > > to see the latest. I haven't really worked on the KR for three or four > weeks, but now with the cooler temperatures in the evenings its time to > get back to work! Woo Hoo! Cooler up here means the epoxy takes longer to cure. Thankfully, I'm finished that stage now. I'm trying to get more pictures up on my site by the end of this weekend. The local flying club is re-paving the runway and taxiway in Sept, so my taxi tests will be in October. Just in time for the rains! - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:40:54 -0400 From: smithr Subject: KR: elevator hinges I have asked this one before but still don't have the answer and I consider it to be very important. (loss of elevator = not good) Help me here guys, I'm stuck. 1. Plans call for 9/32 metal (alum.) beyond the 3/16 bolt hole (hinge axis) for the elevator hinge. If I drill a 5/16 hole for the oilite bearing modification, is it OK to leave the same 9/32 beyond the hole or do I need more? (how much more?) 2. I am probably going to have to move the axis hole inward about 1/8 on both hinge pieces (plans call for 7/8 on the 1.25 piece and 5/8 on the 1" piece) to leave enough metal on beyond the axis hole. Does anyone see any problem with doing this? Bob Smith KR2S (made Tenn., made Arkansas, missing OK,... darn) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:11:25 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: New Web feature kim kroes wrote: > > Ross Youngblood wrote: > > > > Check out http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > > > > Click on KR net members (in the left pane), or the KRNET YEARBOOK > > in the main window. > > > > Be patient, it's worth the wait. > > > > -- Ross > Ross, > Really liked the page with the mug shots. It's really nice to put a face > with the names I keep reading. I didn't realize until I saw the pictures > that Mark Langford and Cary Honeywell are twins :) Will try to send a > picture of myself and my project for the book......Nice Work > kim Send a picture of yourself in your Arnold jacket, and a picture of your KR in an Arnold jacket. I will scan them and put them in the webpage. I can't guarentee I won't loose the photos after scanning however. -- Ross - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:18:05 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Ernest Koppe wrote: > I think it's great that the KRs still attract the kind of people that take > the time to help other builders...I joined EAA in the early 70's and have > been around a lot of builders and planes...none compare to the KRs and > their builders. Makes me think about getting back to sanding foam and > mixing epoxy....Naaah, I think I'll leave that to the current crop of KR > builders... > > Looking forward to the KR Gathering! > > Ernie Koppe > > Ernie, Good to hear from you. BTW, thanks for all the newsletters. I really appriciate the work you did for all of us editing the newsletter. I still have to get going and send Monte my subscription $$.. -- Ross Also, although you clipped my name from the post. My problem is too long bolts but I was not the one considering threading them. I was wondering if washers was a good idea for the backside of a wooden prop. Perhaps that post is long gone. At any rate, I think I will order the correct length bolt. -- Ross - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:24:13 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Jeffrey E Scott wrote: > > The problem with this method is that the fiberlock self locking nuts are > only supposed to be used a limited number of times (I think 3) before > they are no longer considered to be good for self locking purposes. It > is also common to see the application as Mike describes above with > drilled shanks on the bolts and castillated nuts, then a single loop of > safety wire through all six bolts or six separate cotter pins pinning the > nuts to the bolts. That's the way my '39 J-4 Cub and my first Champ were > done. > Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM For me, I'm going to use self locking castillated nuts with safetywire and/or cotterpins. - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:31:30 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: KR2S Cowling Micheal Mims wrote: > > If anyone out there has the KR2S cowling could you measure the distance from > the firewall to the opening for the prop hub for me next time you get a > chance? Thanks! Mike, I built my own cowling, and have a Great Plains Engine mount, Deihl accessory case and a type 1 1835 CC engine. I took the lid off of a bucket of dishwashing detergent and bolted it to the prop hub to start the foaming of the cowling. This was based on Tony Bengelis's books, but the dishwashing detergent lid was my short term spinner backplate substitute... At any rate, would my measurement be of any use to you? -- Ross - -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:48:09 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 05:25 AM 8/29/97 -0500, Bobby Muse wrote: >Why are you wanting to purchase prop bolts with the bolt head or the shank >drilled for safety wire? Safety wire and cotter pins are used whenever the >bolt or nut is subject to rotation. The prop bolts are not subject to >rolation in the bolt hole. > >Just purchase the proper size AN bolt and a self-locking nut and use >standard graduated torque procedures. That's what I was trying to say! Thanks Bobby, the local guys here running VWs are using AN bolts with fiberlock nuts, NO safety wire or cotter pins. They are NOT needed! Some guys have run a heavy wire through the heads of the bolts (heads facing forward) so they can torque the nuts without removing the spinner, but that's the only purpose it serves. Also good job pointing out fiberlock nuts should NOT be used on drilled shank bolts! I forgot to mention that. ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:51:52 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Interesting Stuff Things I bet you didn't know......... Before thermometers were invented, brewers would dip a thumb or finger into the mix to find the right temperature for adding yeast. Too cold, and the yeast wouldn't grow. Too hot, and the yeast would die. This thumb in the beer is where we get the phrase "rule of thumb." In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts. So in old England, when customers got unruly, the bartender would yell at them to mind their own pints and quarts and settle down. It's where we get the phrase "mind your P's and Q's." Many years ago in England, pub frequenters had a whistle baked into the rim or handle of their ceramic cups. When they needed a refill, they used the whistle to get some service. "Wet your whistle" is the phrase inspired by this practice. You just never know when this trivia might be needed ?????? ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:50:42 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Bobby Muse wrote: > Why are wanting to purchase prop bolts with the bolt head or the shank > drilled for safety wire? Safety wire and cotter pins are used whenever the > bolt or nut is subject to rotation. The prop bolts are not subject to > rotation in the bolt hole. My thoughts on this are.... 1) They make "prop bolts" with drilled head & shank. These cost $$ therefore someone must want them pretty badly. 2) The bolt is not subject to "rotation" but I think they are subject to a LOT of vibration. I noted that all the capscrews on my ellison TBI are safetied. None of these are subject to rotation, only vibration. 3) The entire assembly is rotating, and vibrating, and possibly enjoying harmonic vibration as well. I have no idea if this is going to tend to loosen or tighten the bolt. Also, I expect that my wood prop will expand and contract slightly over time with changes in humidity/temperature etc. Soo.. I'm thinking castellated elastic stop nut with a cotter pin on the threaded end and safety wire at the head of the bolt. I am planning on installing the bolts head FWD. Odds are, I won't be inspecting the nut end, as it's hard to see, and the head will be hidden by the spinner. At 50HR/100HR inspection time I want to know if anything is moving, and safety wired heads will show this to me... as would red finger nail polish I expect.... Say has anyone done the red fingernail polish on their KR? A dot on every bolt (at least on the engine) to see if anything is moving? In a nutshell, I don't know if it's necessary, but I can't see where overkill here will hurt. -- Ross -- Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:55:09 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: KR2S Cowling At 10:31 AM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > At any rate, would my measurement be of any use to you? > > -- Ross > > >-- Sure! I measured my engine / rear drive setup last night and it comes out to about 30 inches long. That's kinda long! With 3 or 4 inches clearance between the accessory pulley and firewall my prop flange will be about 34 inches from the firewall. I guess I could rename her the "Hose Nose"!! ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:02:22 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Cary, > Thanks all. Now I have to find the right bolts. Bit of a pain up here in > Canada. Most FBOs (etc) don't stock these items and I don't have the books > for A,S&S or Wicks. My Wag Aero mag doesn't give lenghts either. Sigh! > > - Cary - Two items: 1) Everyone should run out right now and buy a bolt gauge if they don't have one. $7 (OK, Everyone should call ACS or Wicks, and give them a phone order for one). Mine is metal, It allows me to measure the grip length I want, then estimate the thread length and pick the right size bolt. It works much better after you have the wrong length. The ACS catalog has GRIP lengths posted so the catalog is worth $5 too. 2) ANOTHER source for aircaft hardware is: Columbia Airmotive Inc (SINCE 1946 same location) (503)665-4896 P.O. Box 428 Troutdale,OR 97060 They are at 1601 S.W Sturges drive, Troutdale, OR. Sturges is not on any of the maps, but it's approx 5mi S of the Troutdale Airport (2mi S of the outlet mall off the freeway) Up on the hill to the right. (Go past the outlet mall and up the hill, you will see a sign.) These guys are really friendly, and they have nuts bolts, AN fittings, cowling fasteners, ... everything except composite supplies. Tell them KRNET sent you. (They will have no clue). -- Regards Ross Ross Youngblood Pager: (800)SKY-PAGE PIN#895-9073 SABER Engineering voicemail: (800)538-6838 x 1632 Schlumberger SABER Bus Line: (541)714-1754 (Note Area code) Corvallis,Oregon Mailto:rossy@San-Jose.ate.slb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:05:03 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 10:50 AM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > My thoughts on this are.... > > 1) They make "prop bolts" with drilled head & shank. These cost $$ > therefore someone must want them pretty badly. Price is only high because spamcans require them. The number one reason safety wire and or cotter pins are not used is,...drum roll please........... If the bolts lose their torque they will shear anyway! Woo Hoo!! KR2S motorglider! ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:23:19 -0500 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 09:51 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca >... I have to find the right bolts. Bit of a pain up here in >Canada. Most FBOs (etc) don't stock these items and I don't have the books >for A,S&S or Wicks. My Wag Aero mag doesn't give lenghts either. Sigh! > >- Cary - > > It is a must to get the Wicks and ASS catalogs. If you can't call them to send you a copy, send me your snail address and I'll mail an old copy. Here is what ASS has to say: (Page66) AN76 prop bolts - similar to AN3-AN8 bolts except heads drilled 3 ways for safety wire. Undrilled shank. Stocked in 3/8in diam. NOTE: AN76 bolts are in low production. If unavailable, AN6H-xxA will be substituted. (My note - you will see that this supposes that prop bolts are all 3/8. They aren't! 5/16 are used often with VWs and 7/16 bolts have been used on firebreathing dragons, I believe.) (My warning - don't let anybody talk you out of vibration-proofing critical nuts and bolts - rotation is not necessary - vibration can take the nut off a bolt FAST!) Regards brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:03:25 -0700 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question At 01:23 PM 8/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:51 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca > >>... I have to find the right bolts. Bit of a pain up here in >>Canada. Most FBOs (etc) don't stock these items and I don't have the books >>for A,S&S or Wicks. My Wag Aero mag doesn't give lenghts either. Sigh! >> >>- Cary - >> >> >It is a must to get the Wicks and ASS catalogs. > If you can't call them to send you a copy, send me your >snail address and I'll mail an old copy. > >Here is what ASS has to say: (Page66) >AN76 prop bolts - similar to AN3-AN8 bolts except heads drilled 3 ways for >safety wire. Undrilled shank. Stocked in 3/8in diam. >NOTE: AN76 bolts are in low production. If unavailable, AN6H-xxA will be >substituted. > >(My note - you will see that this supposes that prop bolts are all 3/8. >They aren't! 5/16 are used often with VWs and 7/16 bolts have been used on >firebreathing dragons, I believe.) > >(My warning - don't let anybody talk you out of vibration-proofing critical >nuts and bolts - rotation is not necessary - vibration can take the nut off >a bolt FAST!) >Regards > Good point, oil filters are not subject to rotation either but the vibration of the engine will cause it to unscrew. A friend lost his C-150 because of not safety wiring his oil filter, he said it gets real quite when the engine quits, except for the pucker factor. Dave Moore >brian whatcott >Altus OK > > David Moore Turnkey1@mscomm.com Hesperia, California ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:58:57 -0600 From: Adrian Carter Subject: Re: KR: Sanding foam & mixing epoxy Brian Bland wrote: > > >Hi Guys, > > > >I was "lurking" in on the messages and I haven't seen a reply to the "bad > >idea" question above...It is a bad idea! Cutting new threads on a bolt > >creates all sorts of nasty stress points. Prop bolts in particular are > >subject to extreme amounts of vibration and stress. If the right length > >for your prop is not available, go for the longer size and use washers to > >take up the difference. > > > >I think it's great that the KRs still attract the kind of people that take > >the time to help other builders...I joined EAA in the early 70's and have > >been around a lot of builders and planes...none compare to the KRs and > >their builders. Makes me think about getting back to sanding foam and > >mixing epoxy....Naaah, I think I'll leave that to the current crop of KR > >builders... > > > >Looking forward to the KR Gathering! > > > >Ernie Koppe > > > > > Ernie, > > Do you think it is a good idea for you to attend the > gathering? It might just make you get back to sanding foam and mixing > epoxy!!!! :) > > I hope to see you there. > > Brian J Bland > Claremore, OK > > bbland@busprod.com > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9904 Hello Ernie, Nice to hear from you young fella. Welcome on board! Give me an email direct. - -- Adrian VE6AFY cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:29:48 -0600 From: Adrian Carter Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question brian whatcott wrote: > > At 09:51 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca > > >... I have to find the right bolts. Bit of a pain up here in > >Canada. Most FBOs (etc) don't stock these items and I don't have the books > >for A,S&S or Wicks. My Wag Aero mag doesn't give lenghts either. Sigh! > > > >- Cary - > > > > > It is a must to get the Wicks and ASS catalogs. > If you can't call them to send you a copy, send me your > snail address and I'll mail an old copy. > > Here is what ASS has to say: (Page66) > AN76 prop bolts - similar to AN3-AN8 bolts except heads drilled 3 ways for > safety wire. Undrilled shank. Stocked in 3/8in diam. > NOTE: AN76 bolts are in low production. If unavailable, AN6H-xxA will be > substituted. > > (My note - you will see that this supposes that prop bolts are all 3/8. > They aren't! 5/16 are used often with VWs and 7/16 bolts have been used on > firebreathing dragons, I believe.) > > (My warning - don't let anybody talk you out of vibration-proofing critical > nuts and bolts - rotation is not necessary - vibration can take the nut off > a bolt FAST!) > Regards > > brian whatcott > Altus OK Hi Fella's, Here is my 2 cents worth. On my aircraft I used AN5-34 because that is what the hub was drilled at and I did not want to releive it any larger Used Steve Bennetts hub which in my opinion is the best one because of the of the 3/8" prop centering pilot. Had a HAPI hub first but did not like the 1/8" pilot. For anyone that wants to lockwire the heads you can get the AN5H-34 this way you can safety wire the front and pin the castillated nuts. It is not good aeronautical practice to use locknuts on this. There is a proper way of doing it or the haywire way. AN bolts are more than adequate for this rather than the high price prop bolts. Remember these are wooden props and not metal props. But, some have more money that I do. My homebuilt props are 2-1/2" thick, with 1/4" for the rear flange and 1/4" for the face plate for 3", the bolt is 3-1/16" grip length so one can use the appropiate thichness washers. Guess everyone is getting excited about the upcoming KR fly-in, sure wish I could join you guys because I have never attended a solely KR fly-in. I think it is going to be very educational and fun. - -- Adrian VE6AFY cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:42:21 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts Ross Youngblood wrote: > > Bobby Muse wrote: > > > Why are wanting to purchase prop bolts with the bolt head or the shank > > drilled for safety wire? Safety wire and cotter pins are used whenever > > the bolt or nut is subject to rotation. The prop bolts are not subject > > to rotation in the bolt hole. > > My thoughts on this are.... > > 1) They make "prop bolts" with drilled head & shank. SNIP > 2) The bolt is not subject to "rotation" but I think they are subject > to a LOT of vibration. SNIP > 3) The entire assembly is rotating, and vibrating, and possibly > enjoying harmonic vibration as well. SNIP > I'm thinking castellated elastic stop nut with a cotter pin on the > threaded end and safety wire at the head of the bolt. I am planning > on installing the bolts head FWD. Odds are, I won't be inspecting the > nut end, as it's hard to see, and the head will be hidden by the > spinner. At 50HR/100HR inspection time I want to know if anything > is moving, and safety wired heads will show this to me... as would > red finger nail polish I expect.... > > Say has anyone done the red fingernail polish on their KR? A dot > on every bolt (at least on the engine) to see if anything is moving? > > In a nutshell, I don't know if it's necessary, but I can't see > where overkill here will hurt. > > -- Ross These all sound like excellent ideas to me. Like Mike Mims said, "spam cans require them". The main reason that they require them is because it works. The engine safety wire is added because of all the vibrations. The polish idea is also great. How else can you spend pennies and possibly save yourself from an off-airport landing. - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:21:43 -0500 From: Ernest Koppe Subject: Re: KR: krnet At 03:56 PM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: > Please send me via EMAIL or SNAILMAIL the following stuff: > > 1) A MUG shot of yourself. > 2) A MUG shot of your empty shop, your plans, project > or tell me and I will snip a "GENERIC" KR1,KR2 or KR2S > thumbnail to represent your project. > > 4) Indicate whether you want me to post your EMAIL address, if you > don't state anything I WILL NOT post your email address. This > is to prevent SPAMMING >> > Also I would appriciate comments & suggestions on how to clean >up the website. Does anyone else get frustrated with the "FORMS" >method? Also state what type of browser you use. I am a Netscape >fan, so AOL & MS Explorer users may not be getting their moneys worth. > > -- Regards > Ross Youngblood > Your Humble Administrator > rossy@teleport.com > http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > >Ross, I am attaching a photo of my plane and a photo of me to this note. The photos aren't particularly good but I think the idea comes across. As for the rest of your request for info...You may post my e-mail address and KR webpage URL if you wish. They are "ekopp@flash.net" and "www.flash.net~ekoppe/krpage/" respectively. I use MS-IE for a browser. I haven't updated the webpage since I put it up. I work disasters for the SBA and have been pretty busy this year what with the floods in ND and SD (even a small one in Wimberly TX) as well as the damage from Hurricane Danny. I'm just hoping that huricane season is a quiet one this year so I can make the "Gathering". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:51:10 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: spar construction page updated I recently promised an excruciatingly detailed explanation of how I built my spars. I'm happy to report that all 17 pages and 32 pictures are now on display at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kwings.html. This is truly nirvana for the anal retentives among us. Fortunately, I left out the details... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:47:09 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: project update KRNetHeads, I've spent the last week rediscovering the joys of vinyl ester resin while glassing my wing tank parts. Vinyl ester is reputed to be fuelproof, with many years of proof available. This is the stuff that you've bought at Walmart to fiberglass your car or boat with, but I paid major bucks for the AS&S version. This is the stuff that gives "fiberglassing" a bad name. I knew when it started bubbling after 30 seconds of stirring that this stuff was a little different. And the odor is, well, noxious. Ventilation is a must. And after about 5 minutes on your hands (gloves), it gets really sticky. Everything you touch wants to go with you. Like the strands of fiberglass in your layup, stirring sticks, cups, etc. I think that's because this cure rate is so temperature dependent. It's past experience with this kind of resin that makes people want to build RVs. The only information on the "label" was the part number, and "mix 1% to 2.5% hardener depending on ambient temperature". That was sure enlightening, so I went to the Walmart version which had a whole paragraph. So, even if you want to mix 1%, how much is that? But this stuff is promoted before shipping (mine sat on the dock for two weeks waiting for UPS so a quarter of its two month life was gone when I got it) so it'll probably cure eventually regardless of mix ratio. Fortunately my electronic scale has a resolution of 2 grams, so I get 200g of resin, and sneak up a drop at a time on it to make sure that I'm on an even number. Then add catalyst with a syringe till I get 2g more. Anyway, seems like I'm getting more pinholes than I did with Safety Poxy, even though I'm laying it up face down on glass. Incidently, for those who haven't tried it, PVA is a great mold release. It's just a spray on water soluble vinyl that you apply after waxing the glass. This way you only have to wash the release off of your parts, rather than having to use nasty chemicals to remove the wax. Tomorrow I'll do an experiment using peel ply. I know it will soak up lots of my desirable excess epoxy, but I'm hoping the surface tension and visual indication that I get after I squeegee it will be helpful to eliminate pinholes. I also have an apparently bad batch of fiberglass, since a few spots seem immune to wetting out with resin, despite being bathed from both sides. So tomorrow we try it another way... My fuselage, tail feathers, canopy, front and aft decks are done and pretty smooth. It all gets a coat of featherfil soon. Stub wings and gear are in the works now, with the wing tanks being the major obstacle. Maybe it'll fly by Gathering time next year. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:39:57 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: project update Sorry Mark, but I'll have to pick this nit just a bit. If I'm wrong, well, I may not be able to afford the Perry bar tab. On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:47:09 -0500 "Mark Langford" writes: >KRNetHeads, > >I've spent the last week rediscovering the joys of vinyl ester resin while >glassing my wing tank parts. Vinyl ester is reputed to be fuelproof, with >many years of proof available. This is the stuff that you've bought at >Walmart to fiberglass your car or boat with, but I paid major bucks for the >AS&S version. This is the stuff that gives "fiberglassing" a bad name. > >I knew when it started bubbling after 30 seconds of stirring that this >stuff was a little different. And the odor is, well, noxious. Ventilation >is a must. And after about 5 minutes on your hands (gloves), it gets >really sticky. Everything you touch wants to go with you. Like the >strands of fiberglass in your layup, stirring sticks, cups, etc. I think >that's because this cure rate is so temperature dependent. It's past >experience with this kind of resin that makes people want to build RVs. - --------------------snip----------------------------- Just a note or two about vinylester and the "Wal-Mart" version. The stuff you usually buy at Wal-mart, and other retail stores for body work is usually polyester, NOT vinylester. They do use the same promotion agents and the same catalyst (MEKP). The working and wet out qualities are very similar. But the finished product definitely has different qualities. Both types are fuel proof. Piper used polyester resin to build some of the fuel tanks in the Cherokee series, many of which have a 30+ year history with fuels. If you care to educate yourselves about the "how to" of working with vinylester, I would suggest looking up your local Glassair builder. I spent a couple of hours with a Glassair builder before I started with the vinylester and left with a wealth of knowledge that I never would have figured out on my own. Hamilton Stoddard also supplies them with tables to help calculate the correct amount of promotors and catalyst for the temperature to produce the desired working time. It usually takes a little experience with vinylester to learn right amounts of catalyst for the temperature, humidity, and age of the promoted resin. With a little practice, it gets to be pretty easy to "read" the resin and get the right amount of catalyst. I should note that the amount of catalyst is not really critical like hardener with epoxies. Too much and the resin will set up much faster than you want. Too little and you may have to put the part out in the sun or under a warm lamp to help it cure, but it will cure properly. If you want to make your jug of promoted vinylester resin last much longer, put it in the refrigerator (that makes the wife really happy). I found that the promoted resin was usually useable for 6 - 8 months when I bought it in the fall and stored it in a cool corner of my garage. When I stored it in the garage over the summer, it was usually starting to get lumpy after 3 - 4 months. I used the lumpy stuff to repair the floorboards in my old Jeep. FWIW, I liked working with this stuff. I could use it in my garage all winter so I didn't have to stop doing glass for the winter. But then again, maybe I just liked the buzz I got from the fumes... :o) > Tomorrow I'll do an experiment using peel >ply. I know it will soak up lots of my desirable excess epoxy, but I'm >hoping the surface tension and visual indication that I get after I >squeegee it will be helpful to eliminate pinholes. It will. I had more problems with pinholes in saf-t-poxy layups. My plane is about half vinylester and half saf-t-poxy. I'll be glad to point out which parts are which in about three weeks. :o) Jeff "Mr. Vinylester" Scott - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:48:44 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Prop Bolts At 07:42 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: These all sound like excellent ideas to me. Like Mike Mims said, "spam cans require them". The main reason that they require them is because it works. Its because they have no other way to lock the bolts into position, the prop flange inserts on a spam can are not of the locking type just plain threaded inserts so safety wire is required. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / _\/\/_ _____/_//\\_\_____ F-117 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:54:52 -0700 From: Robert Covington Subject: KR: Re:KR2S Cowling >At 10:31 AM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >> At any rate, would my measurement be of any use to you? >> >> -- Ross >> >> >>-- > >Sure! I measured my engine / rear drive setup last night and it comes out >to about 30 inches long. That's kinda long! With 3 or 4 inches clearance >between the accessory pulley and firewall my prop flange will be about 34 >inches from the firewall. I guess I could rename her the "Hose Nose"!! > >________________________________ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims Re: "Hose Nose" There seems to be an aesthetic consideration I have noticed with some cowlings on some KR's and it is that they don't seem to match the curve of the lower longeron nowadays on the bottom curve. Not a smooth followthrough because the original curve on the bottom longeron doesn't match the needed radius for every engine setup. I wonder if it is time to straighten out the curve a bit on the lower longeron near the firewall area so that new cowlings can fair into the body better. Otherwise you get a funky look since some cowlings needs to be longer than the current curve (radius) lets you get away with (for some engine installations/ prop extenders). For a VW I think it is fine, but other engine setups might require a slightly shallower curve for best aesthetics. Then the cowling will look like it is part of the plane and not just stuck on there. The longeron curve would flow right on up to the nose then and not straighten out a little ahead of time. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:18:09 +0200 From: "PIERRE & ANTON FOUCHE'" Subject: KR: Fw: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question Hi Ross Anton here in sunny South Africa This is my first contibution but here goes. You Wrote - ---------- > From: Ross Youngblood > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: KR: Prop Bolts Too Long? Question > Date: 28`28, August 28, 1997 2:51 AM > > Howdy Sports Fans... > > I have my prop bolts, and they are a bit too long. I didn't estimate > the width of the spinner backup plates too well. I was originally going > to order the correct length prop bolt as opposed to using washers. > My thoughts that with washers, and a wooden prop the bolts might have > more of a tendancy to loosen. Since there are more materials expanding > and contracting with heat between the bolt head and the nut. > On the other hand, I think I have to order more washers anyway so > I probably should order bolts while I'm at it. Any thoughts? > > -- Ross > KRNET Admin mailto:rossy@teleport.com > KRNET Website http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm The following is from Ronald J.Wanttaja's "KITPLANE CONSTRUCTION" 2nd edition. 'The threaded area develops the bolt's full strength in tension, but is not designed for shear loading. So the threaded length of the shank should start just where the bolt emergres from the material. A little bit ( at most, one full turn of the threads) can still be inside. But you don't want too much coming out ,either. If the bolt is too long, the nut will reach the end of the threads before it applies pressure to the work. Up to 3 washers can be used to compensate for overlong bolts, but a shorter bolt would be lighter. Sometimes, when the bolts are to long you might be tempted to lengthen the threaded area with a DIE (a tool used to cut threads). DON'T. The AN specification calls for "ROLLED" threads, and your home-threading makes sharp-edged ones. It won't be as strong, and it'll be more susceptible to cracking. In addition, cutting new threads removes the cadmium plating, giving corrosion a place to start. The bolt should be long enough that no more than one turn of thread is left within the hole and short enough that no more than 3 washers are necessary to allow the bolt to apply its proper tension.' This is a bit general in terms of bolts but has good rules to live by. Hope it is of help Thanks to all for the good gen Regards from the South Anton Fouche' P-I-F@pixie.co.za ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:26:31 -0400 From: kim kroes Subject: Re: KR: project update Mark Langford wrote: > > KRNetHeads, > > I also have an > apparently bad batch of fiberglass, since a few spots seem immune to > wetting out with resin, despite being bathed from both sides. > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > email at langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford Mark, Where and how are you storing your glass? If it is in an area that gets oil (or wax etc...)splashed in to it, or if it gets handled with oil/grease on your hands, you will get spots that will not wet out. Don't use the outside layer of glass and see if the problem goes away. If it is 'bad glass' then buy from a different source. I have found that glass i buy from the local marina (they do a lot of boat work and encourage/help people work on their own) seems to be much better quality than the Wal-Mat variety. I should point out that this very limited wisdom comes from boat work, my plane is not ready for any glass work yet. kim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:29:14 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: project update kim kroes wrote: > Where and how are you storing your glass? If it is in an area that gets > oil (or wax etc...)splashed in to it, or if it gets handled with > oil/grease on your hands, you will get spots that will not wet out. > Don't use the outside layer of glass and see if the problem goes away. I keep mine in my computer room inside the house, rolled up inside the original brown paper wrapper that I got it from Wicks in. I've been pretty careful not to contaminate it in any way, and constantly vacuum the table where I work. This roll is long enough to do my wings (I've forgotten how much I ordered, but it's a LONG one), so I sincerely hope it's not bad glass. I'm just going to try a different method today, and we'll see if there are any more wetting out problems. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford - ---------- > From: kim kroes > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: project update > Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 7:26 AM > > Mark Langford wrote: > > > > KRNetHeads, > > > > I also have an > > apparently bad batch of fiberglass, since a few spots seem immune to > > wetting out with resin, despite being bathed from both sides. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > > email at langford@hiwaay.net > > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford > > Mark, > Where and how are you storing your glass? If it is in an area that gets > oil (or wax etc...)splashed in to it, or if it gets handled with > oil/grease on your hands, you will get spots that will not wet out. > Don't use the outside layer of glass and see if the problem goes away. > If it is 'bad glass' then buy from a different source. I have found that > glass i buy from the local marina (they do a lot of boat work and > encourage/help people work on their own) seems to be much better quality > than the Wal-Mat variety. I should point out that this very limited > wisdom comes from boat work, my plane is not ready for any glass work > yet. > kim > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #84 ****************************