From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 12:48 PM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n103' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #103 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Wednesday, September 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 103 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:34:18 -0500 From: John Roffey Subject: Re: KR: Engines Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 10:41 AM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, quick question. Anybody know much about the Hirth F30 engine? 110 HP > >only weighs 108 pounds? > > > >Thanks, Scott > > > > Noisy, fuel consuming 2 stroke. Leave them in the snowmobiles and boats > where they belong! :o) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com > http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand > > \ / > \ _\/\/_ > / __/_//\\_\_____ > > F-117 > Having structural failure! Mike , don't forget to admonish the two stroke folks with "Friend don't let friends fly Two Strokes." Just had a friend of mine put his Fisher Classic into Lake St.Clair this week. Thank goodnes it went so slow. No-one got hurt, just the bottom wing and landing gear. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:44:32 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Re: Perrykosh Heck, I had Don upset with me within 10 minutes of arriving Friday >morning...I smoothed that over and tried not to make waves the rest of the >event. (Of course with my charm, it wouldn't be hard to PO a guy - heck, ask >Rob Covington how charming I can be!) > A measly 10 minutes to piss him off. You are slowing down Randy. Granted I was not there for the whole event but what I saw was great. My main suggestion is controlling the rides better (numbers?) so that folks don't mob the pilots. Ron >Randy Stein >BSHADR@aol.com >Soviet Monica, CA > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:35:02 -0700 From: enewbold@sprynet.com Subject: Re: KR: A new KR-1 owner! >Congrats Ed. Sounds like you just avoided a little bit of sanding. >John Roffey Thanks, John, except I am *still* working on the KR-2 in my garage. Gotta finish that little beastie so I can fly with my girlfriend too. Besides, what would life be without the foam dust, sawdust, acrid fumes, and all the other ... uh, fragrances ... that come wafting in from the garage each day? Cheers, Ed Newbold Columbus, OH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:15:42 -0700 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: Perry and Incident / brake thingies Tom Crawford wrote: > > > Sounds like maybe he needs those "aluminum bar thingies" on his rudder > pedals to keep his feet off the brakes while trying to use the rudder. > > Tom Crawford > tomc@afn.org > Gainesville, FL------------ Does anyone have any drawings for these rudder/brake pedal thingies??? Thanks Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net - ----------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 03:18:08 -0700 From: Robert Covington Subject: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. Sports Fans, Low Pass fans, Free Pass Fans, High Pass Fans, and High Pass Followed By a Fumble Fans...wait I forgot Ducted Fans, The longerons on my KR-2S sides under construction still have not been trimmed in length. I could easily add an extra 14 inch bay at the rear and keep the standard taper that is already there on the bottom (side one is built, two is halfway). The standard 2S length yields the rudder attach point/tail to be about 11 inches across the hypotenuse with that 7 degree angle. Adding an extra 14 inch bay would make this distance about 10 inches. So: 1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) 2. Would I and where would I need to add extra diagonals, etc. 3. How much would this affect the CG (probably using an 0-200 with electric system.) 4. Does it even need any extra stretch. 5. Would everybody be jealous if I could then pour "Dumb Perry Yawn" without spilling at high warp speeds. (No offense to Perry, merely the victim of a pun champagne setup.) This would be very easy to do at the stage I am at. Apologies in advance if this starts a 400 message thread that goes on until PerryKosh 98. No apologies for the bad puns. Randy needs them to live on. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:45:23 From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. I am NOT an aero engineer but one person either has done it or plans to. Mark Langford hopefully will provide his insights. AS far as stability in pitch, someone has suggested that making the horizontal stabilizer a bit larger (unknown direction) would have the same effect as moving the stabilizer back. Appearance wise it could be great, especially if you lengthen the nose are a little. Ron Lee >The longerons on my KR-2S sides under construction still have not been >trimmed in length. > >I could easily add an extra 14 inch bay at the rear and keep the standard >taper that is already there on the bottom (side one is built, two is >halfway). > >The standard 2S length yields the rudder attach point/tail to be about 11 >inches across the hypotenuse with that 7 degree angle. Adding an extra 14 >inch bay would make this distance about 10 inches. > >So: > >1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) >2. Would I and where would I need to add extra diagonals, etc. >3. How much would this affect the CG (probably using an 0-200 with electric >system.) >4. Does it even need any extra stretch. >5. Would everybody be jealous if I could then pour "Dumb Perry Yawn" >without spilling at high warp speeds. (No offense to Perry, merely the >victim of a pun champagne setup.) > > >Robert Covington > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:19:29 -0700 From: Tom Crawford Subject: Re: KR: Thomasville, Ga. fly-in darrin wrote: > > Hello again fellow kr people from south georgia! I would like to > inform everyone of an airshow planned for Oct.10,11,and 12 in > Thomasville, Ga. I was not able to make it to Perry this year but sure > would like another chance for a ride in a kr!! I will be getting married > that saturday afternoon and would love a short ride as a wedding gift!! > hint, hint > I am working on a kr-1 and would like to at least chat with another > builder face to face. > Yall come now! > > Darrin, want a ride, West Darrin, I had planned to fly up to Thomasville for the fly in, I have heard it is a good one. Unfortunately, I have had some unexpected delays come up, and probably wont make it. Nevertheless, you would be welcome to come down to GNV sometime and talk KR's. Might even have mine flying by then. Tom Crawford tomc@afn.org Gainesville, FL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:00:42 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. Robert Covington wrote: > The longerons on my KR-2S sides under construction still have not been > trimmed in length. > > I could easily add an extra 14 inch bay at the rear and keep the standard > taper that is already there on the bottom (side one is built, two is > halfway). I added six inches to the tail of my -2S by extending one inch in each of the fuselage bays behind the rear spar. This was done to balance the additional 5 inches I added in front of the main spar to allow my feet to end up behind the firewall. To help counterbalance, I have a 3 gallon header tank in the fuselage instead of the normal, large tank. I ran a stress analysis to compare the before and after stresses in the fuselage. In my particular case, the stress levels actually decreased slightly in and around the main spar. With all that is mind, I can provide some general statements. > So: > > 1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) If nothing else were changed, the highest stress level will probably be at the lower longeron at the main spar. The fuselage will tend to twist more due to the air loads on the vertical stab. Diagonal bracing inside the fuselage may be necessary. It will tend to be more stable and have a potentially larger CG range. > 2. Would I and where would I need to add extra diagonals, etc. I did not add any on the fuselage sides in my particular case. I did add two inside the fuselage as described above. Your case will be different. > 3. How much would this affect the CG (probably using an 0-200 with electric > system.) Some, but not much. You can easily set up a "back-of-the-envelope" calc to get a good idea. Imagine a see-saw, one end is the tail and the other is the engine. For a rough calc, use the length from the main wing spar to the front spar of the elevator and from the main wing spar to a distance about 18 inches in front of the fire wall. The CG of an O-200 is about 4.5 inches in front of the engine mount bosses, and the engine mount will need to be at least 12 inches long to get to the accessories. The prop, exhaust, cowling, etc will all move it forward, so 18" is OK for a first guess. I would assume 250 pounds for the engine and all related stuff. Engine weight times moment arm must equal download on the tail times the tail moment arm. Or rearranging, engine weight times engine moment arm divided by tail moment arm equals required tail down load. See how much it changes. Add your extra stretch, and then try moving the engine forward a little to change. After all construction is finished aft of the firewall, you do a weight and balance to deceide how long to make the engine mount. Then it really does balance when you do the final weight and balance at completion. This is a major change to the structure and really should be carefully considered. It really requires more analysis than you can get in this type of forum. If you are serious about it, get a professional engineer or experienced builder to look at it. > 4. Does it even need any extra stretch. Your call. Do you need to risk your life doing something as crazy as building and flying your own aircraft? I do! > Robert Covington - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:29:01 -0700 From: Al Hawkins Subject: KR: Re: Perry I also had a great time in Perry, just got back from Dallas yesterday. It was nice meeting all you guys, and I finally got my 1st ride in Marty's airplane :o). All the best Alastair Hawkins Port Coquitlam,B.C. Canada ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:33:14 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. At 03:18 AM 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) Why would it? You putting a training wheel on the nose anyway! ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:42:33 -0400 From: smithr Subject: KR: KR would ya could ya should ya Bob, When I first decided to build a KR I decided that many changes were needed such as wider fuse, wider hstab etc. That was 2 years ago. The more that I learn and talk to people, the more I seem to realize that maybe many of these changes aren't needed and that the KR2S according to plans may be pretty good. I tried to widen my fuse by 4 inches and could only get 2 inches out of it. Now I'm glad I didn't widen it by 4. I perceived a pitch stability problem as a serious problem that could possibly be corrected by lenthening the fuse or widening the hstab. Now I believe that the real problem to be addressed is maintaining the CG forward. This becomes a big problem with 2 people and forward fuel burnoff. So I decided to scrap the big fuel tank in the nose in favor of a smaller header tank and wing tanks on the CG. So its your call on the fuse length but I believe that the plans length probably isn't too bad. I still believe that a few small changes are needed. Hope this helps! Bob Smith, KR2S, Albany, NY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:41:49 -0400 From: smithr Subject: KR: Forward deck I have a 1/4" foam core front deck and a 1/8" dragonfly canopy. Would anyone that has already doe this have any suggestions as to how to best attach them together with adequate strength? I assume I need a butt joint with maybe 2- 6 oz tapes top and bottom. Don't want to reinvent the wheel here. Plan to cut them apart later. Bob Smith, Albany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:22:46 +-200 From: Kobus de Wet Subject: KR: Progress report ZS-WPX Well guys while you were all having a good time at Perry, I kept myself busy and out of mischief. The final coat of Durathane -K paint went on today. This take 72 Hrs to dry properly, so by Saturday the lines and stickers goes on. So by next weekend she should be at the airfield for engine runs and taxi tests. Will keep you posted by updating the web page. Kobus de Wet It's SPRING in South Africa http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/5101 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:32 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Forward deck smithr wrote: > > I have a 1/4" foam core front deck and a 1/8" dragonfly canopy. Would anyone that has already doe this have > any suggestions as to how to best attach them together with adequate strength? I assume I need a butt joint > with maybe 2- 6 oz tapes top and bottom. Don't want to reinvent the wheel here. Plan to cut them apart later. > > Bob Smith, Albany I used a butt joint with 5-6 plies of 6 oz glass inside and out. I "tapered" the width of plies. The inner most was the thinnest and overlapped the deck by about 1 inch. The next ply was about 1/2 inch wider, and so on. The last ply was the widest of all, so that there was only one raw edge to finish. - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:43:15 -0400 (EDT) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: Perry and Incident / brake thingies In a message dated 97-09-23 23:22:53 EDT, Marvin wrote: << Does anyone have any drawings for these rudder/brake pedal thingies??? Thanks >> Marvin: Just visualize 1/2 rounds attached hortz. to your brake pedals 1/2" or so below the pivot point of your pedals. By resting your feet on the 1/2 rounds, you automatically keep the pressure off of the brakes. To apply brakes, you then rotate up onto the balls/toes of your feet and push the brake (upper) portion of the pedals. Troy Petteway mentioned the reason he used heel brakes was to avoid this very problem. He also felt there was less pressure on the rudder system from people stomping on the brakes. A pretty simple solution either way. I do believe the cause of the mishap was fear by the pilot and his brake application at the wrong time. I did witness Stikers departure Sunday morning and everything looked normal. The repairs appeared to be a success. Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:33:02 -0300 From: Jim Sellars Subject: Re: KR: Gathering Webpage Hello Folks; I seem to be having difficulty getting to the sight for the Perry info. The web address isn't working for me, if you could explain again what the address is or make some suggestions about how to access I'd appreciate. Thanks Jim At 07:26 PM 16/09/97 -0700, you wrote: >Some photo shops will put your photos on CD but this takes about >a week. Kinkos will scan photos for $7.00 or so a page, and you >can get 4 or so pictures to a page. I bought a scanner, but >now think a digital camera is in the future for me. > >Brian Bland wrote: >> >> I have made some small changes to the Gathering webpage. I will be >> posting information about what went on in Perry late Friday and >> Saturday night when I get home from Perry. I will try to post some >> pictures as soon as possible. Anyone know how I can get some pictures >> scanned as soon as I get them developed? I don't have a scanner yet. >> Any ideas? >> >> Brian J Bland >> Claremore, OK >> >> bbland@busprod.com > >-- >Ross Youngblood >KRNET-L administrator >mailto:rossy@teleport.com >http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:22:05 -0500 From: Jim Faughn Subject: KR: Next Gathering Ideas I had an idea that might be shot down or may become unworkable but I thought it would be worth a try. Below are categories for the 1998 Gathering. The purpose of this list is for people on the net to add to it while the gathering is still fresh in our minds. The directions are simple. Add what you want to the Pros and Cons under each category. You can even add another category if you want. Each time you send back the e-mail, strip off all the extra stuff that gets added by returning the e-mail and make it like it is an original message. Make a concerted effort to use the "latest message". Don't take anything away from the message, just add to it. This e-mail can be used as a brainstorm list and after a few weeks we should have lots of ideas for the next gathering. So here goes: Flying Pros: Everyone wants to see them fly, people want to see the performance, Cons: Some pilots need to be tamed, It takes away from forums, Need more control possibly limit # of planes in the air Rides Pros: People want to see what they might get in the end, its an opportunity for people to see how they handle, Cons: Not everyone gets to ride, Some try to ride more than once, The pilots may not even recover their expenses, Pilots are not commercial pilots and paying for rides (sharing expenses) may be a problem, Forums Pros: Great for new builders, Organized way for everyone to get the information rather than the bold that will ask, Cons: Pilots like to fly, Expenses for Gathering Pros: We like to have it free so it doesn't limit attendance, Every year the person tries to out do the last one making a better gathering, Cons: Not everyone goes the the dinner to get an opportunity to contribute, The person running it usually "gets the shaft", Meal Pros: Great opportunity for sharing the excitement of the day, Cons: Not everyone can attend, - -- Jim Faughn N8931JF St. Louis, MO (314) 652-7659 or (573) 465-8039 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:25:25 -0400 From: dennis ambrose Subject: Re: KR: Re: Bungee Trim Systems (formerly Airworthiness Certificate) At 02:21 AM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>He was right concerning the trim tab. I changed mine to a spring setup >>>on the control stick and used a RV type window crank to adjust the >>>tension. It works so good that I did the same thing on the rudder. > >>How about sharing how its done! I myself don't like the plans trim system >>and was just about to flox the piece that I cut out for the tab back in and >>come up with something better! PLEASE share! >the other of the bungee. Below, the trim wheel is being rotated back (Arrow >A), which pulls on the front of the bungee cord, moving the top cable forward >(Arrow B) and pulling the whole elevator (not a trimtab) up. > >A bungee system eliminates a trimtab completely and allows the whole >elevator to be trimmed, so you'd never run out of trim >Mike Taglieri Does anyone have an opinion about how much elevator deflection is required when trimming the whole elevator? The plans call for 20 deg. down and 30 deg. up but what numbers would you use fora trim range. Thanks Dennis( Mid way throught re-designing the trim system) Ambrose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:33:51 -0700 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. >At 03:18 AM 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >>1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) > >Why would it? You putting a training wheel on the nose anyway! > >________________________________ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Just Plane Nutts >mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com > >http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand Not referring to tailwheel ground handling leverage type forces, but the tail forces having more leverage on the fuselage in flight. More arm for bending forces with a bit less total area cross section where it all mounts. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:53:22 -0500 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Re: Bungee Trim Systems (formerly Airworthiness Certificate) At 18:25 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote: ... >>A bungee system eliminates a trimtab completely and allows the whole >>elevator to be trimmed, so you'd never run out of trim >>Mike Taglieri > > > Does anyone have an opinion about how much elevator deflection is required >when trimming the whole elevator? The plans call for 20 deg. down and 30 >deg. up but what numbers would you use fora trim range. > > > Thanks Dennis( Mid way throught re-designing the trim system) Ambrose > I think the way you are asking this question makes it difficult to give a sensible answer. Page 83 of Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft has something to say about the virtues of improving pitch stability with a spring ( using a fixed tab that wants to pull the stick back with increasing speed - that is stabilizing...) So we can say the spring provides a force, not a position change. Then think about the purpose of elevator movement. 1) To set the aircraft position in a steady-state, from stalling angle to steep dive, at most forward and most aft CofG 2) To rapidly change the aircraft attitude - this takes more elevator deflection. It seems to me that the spring trim needs to handle case 1) mostly. That amounts to trimming for hanging on a stall at full power at most forward CofG and trimming to Vne in a dive at most aft CofG Sure this will be less deflection than max - but I don't think anyone can tell you exactly how much less - these are one of a kind planes. Regards brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:53:30 -0500 From: John Roffey Subject: Re: KR: Re: Perry Al Hawkins wrote: > > I also had a great time in Perry, just got back from Dallas yesterday. > It was nice meeting all you guys, and I finally got my 1st ride in > Marty's airplane :o). > > All the best > Alastair Hawkins > Port Coquitlam,B.C. > Canada Al, do you know or have you heard of a guy named Jim Flett in Port Coquitlam? He is into hot rods. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:15:39 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: 97 Gathering page KRNetHeads, For those of you that couldn't make the Gathering, I put some pictures out there at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/k97gathr.html, or you can get to it from the URL below. There's always next year... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:40:22 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: 97 Gathering page Mark Langford wrote: > For those of you that couldn't make the Gathering, I put some pictures out > there at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/k97gathr.html, or you can get to > it from the URL below. There's always next year... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > email at langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford These are excellent quality photos. How did you do them? Real camera and scanner, E-camera, or what? - -- Don Reid donreid@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:19:30 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Gathering comments At 04:43 PM 9/23/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Bobby. > >>I was afraid that I was not going to fly while at next years gathering. >>Instead maybe we should take turns at flying because I thought that's what >>everyone came to see. I'm sorry if the the rules were broken(by mistake I'm >>sure). At next years' gathering we will have advise all KR pilots to not do >>that again.......BUT boy, did we have a gooood time!!!! >>Bobby Muse(N122B) > >I don't think there was any really "dangerous" flying going on, and I've been to >many, many fly-ins at other locations with other groups where the flying, while >a bit lower than the average pattern altitude, wouldn't be considered dangerous. > >I thoroughly enjoyed watching all of the flights. Keep up the good work. > >Ed Newbold >Columbus, OH > > Ed, I agree with you, but just like other postings on this net there is a lot of comments from the 'Peanut Gallery'. That's why we have these gatherings in NON-controlled areas. They need to be up flying to actually see what's going on. I do agree that we need to tone it down a little. But because of the comments here, I would hard pressed to break away from a normal traffic next year for fear of who might be attending. Bobby Muse(N122B) bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:19:37 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Perry and Incident / brake thingies At 02:43 PM 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote: I did >witness Stikers departure Sunday morning and everything looked normal. The >repairs appeared to be a success. > >Randy Stein > Yes he did look O.K., actually he looked great! I am concerned about him because I left in the same direction as he and Randy did and I had to scud-run for the first two hundred miles. Has anyone heard if they got home O.K. from OK. Bobby Muse(N122B) bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:19:36 -0500 From: John Roffey Subject: Re: KR: 97 Gathering page Mark Langford wrote: > > KRNetHeads, > > For those of you that couldn't make the Gathering, I put some pictures out > there at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/k97gathr.html, or you can get to > it from the URL below. There's always next year... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > email at langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford Mark, great job on the pix. The KR2S in some of the last pictures is awsome. That sliding canopy is food for much thought. Do I understand that the fuselage is all composite? Does the nose gear retract forward or rearward? I hope video Bob caught that one in the 97 Gathering tape. Can't wait to see more. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:35:19 -0500 From: Kerry Miller Subject: KR: Mark L.'s pix Great job on the pictures! Especially since my daughter ruined my film... While I'm on the soapbox, I'm glad I got to experience some "real" performance flying in Marty's KR since it might not happen next year... I noticed while we were up that everybody was talking to everybody, and I was also helping to watch for traffic. I've been to fly-ins where there were many more planes in the air and some people were "terrorizing" other planes, and it really scared me. The Perry fly-in didn't feel like that, at least to me. One fly-in I went to in my (agonizingly slow) Aeronca Chief was what I thought was dangerous. I had a guy in a Citabria dive down in front of me before I even knew he was there, and I only missed him by about 50 feet. I didn't see anything like that at Perry. Looking forward to '98! Kerry Miller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:56:52 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: 97 Gathering page Donald Reid wrote: > These are excellent quality photos. How did you do them? Real camera and > scanner, E-camera, or what? Real camera and scanner. They're only 72 dpi though, to save space and bandwidth. Much more than that seems to be the point of diminishing returns. I have a slow modem at home, so I'm keenly aware of these things. It probably doesn't hurt that I've been seriously into photography since I was 12, but I really took these as a means of recording things. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: 98 Gathering Ideas Jim Faugh's Great Brainstorm List for the 98 Gathering: FLYING Pros: Everyone wants to see them fly, people want to see the performance, Cons: Some pilots need to be tamed, It takes away from forums, Need more control possibly limit # of planes in the air, (Randy) Suggests pilot briefings and one designated "Air Boss" for each flying session, on a radio and he/she has ultimate yes/no calls during that session, RIDES Pros: People want to see what they might get in the end, its an opportunity for people to see how they handle, Cons: Not everyone gets to ride, Some try to ride more than once, The pilots may not even recover their expenses, Pilots are not commercial pilots and paying for rides (sharing expenses) may be a problem, (Randy) I didn't have the opportunity to develope the "Fuel Chit" system for all people wanting rides. All requested rides should be recorded on a list, a number given as they sign up and each returning flight gets the current "ready number." If they want a specific plane, they are moved aside until that plane returns. Preferences should be given to current builders/plan holders, FORUMS Pros: Great for new builders, Organized way for everyone to get the information rather than the bold that will ask, (Randy) - What forums do you guys want next year? Cons: Pilots like to fly, Expenses for Gathering Pros: We like to have it free so it doesn't limit attendance, Every year the person tries to out do the last one making a better gathering, (Randy) Can we charge a nominal fee ($3-5) for registration and/or have a Gathering Donation box at the registration? Cons: Not everyone goes the the dinner to get an opportunity to contribute, The person running it usually "gets the shaft", (Randy) I agree, MEALS Pros: Great opportunity for sharing the excitement of the day, (Randy) The BBQ/Fish Fry had nothing but great comments, can we charge to allow the host to live through the evening since we have to eat anyways? Cons: Not everyone can attend, ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:28:32 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. Robert Covington wrote: > Sports Fans, Low Pass fans, Free Pass Fans, High Pass Fans, and High Pass > Followed By a Fumble Fans...wait I forgot Ducted Fans, > > The longerons on my KR-2S sides under construction still have not been > trimmed in length. > > I could easily add an extra 14 inch bay at the rear and keep the standard > taper that is already there on the bottom (side one is built, two is > halfway). > > The standard 2S length yields the rudder attach point/tail to be about 11 > inches across the hypotenuse with that 7 degree angle. Adding an extra 14 > inch bay would make this distance about 10 inches. > > So: > > 1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) > 2. Would I and where would I need to add extra diagonals, etc. > 3. How much would this affect the CG (probably using an 0-200 with electric > system.) > 4. Does it even need any extra stretch. > 5. Would everybody be jealous if I could then pour "Dumb Perry Yawn" > without spilling at high warp speeds. (No offense to Perry, merely the > victim of a pun champagne setup.) > > This would be very easy to do at the stage I am at. > > Apologies in advance if this starts a 400 message thread that goes on until > PerryKosh 98. No apologies for the bad puns. Randy needs them to live on. > > Robert Covington I am building my kr2s with 5 inches added in front of forward spar and 14 inches added behind the rear spar. The cockpit has also been widened to 44 inches. At the 60% level now. Rich McCall ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:32:56 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. Micheal Mims wrote: > At 03:18 AM 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: > >1. Would my tail break off. (extra leverage, 1 inch thinner box section) > > Why would it? You putting a training wheel on the nose anyway! > > ________________________________ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts > mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com > > http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand Hey Michael, be nice now. Some of us happen to like the training wheels up front. Rich McCall ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:38:33 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: A new KR-1 owner! enewbold@sprynet.com wrote: > >Congrats Ed. Sounds like you just avoided a little bit of sanding. > >John Roffey > > Thanks, John, except I am *still* working on the KR-2 in my garage. Gotta finish > that little beastie so I can fly with my girlfriend too. > > Besides, what would life be without the foam dust, sawdust, acrid fumes, and all > the other ... uh, fragrances ... that come wafting in from the garage each day? > > Cheers, > > Ed Newbold > Columbus, OH Congratulations on the "new" KR2. At least you'll be flying while you build. Lucky fellow. Rich McCall Junction City, KS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:41:22 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: KR Perrykosh brian whatcott wrote: > At 15:44 9/23/97 +0000, Steve wrote: > >... Dido's on the cross traffic > >flying / bys, me also thinks this is dangerous. We can have fun, show > >off the aircraft and fly safely. Suggest a pilot briefing each > >morning before begining. Steve Bennett > > > > > I started writing a little note about how two or three witnesses who > call a flight dangerous can start the wheels turning. > But I couldn't bring myself to send it. Such a downer. > > Think your note makes more sense. > Brian > brian whatcott > Altus OK Brian, I must have something in Perry! At any rate, I wanted to let you know I appreciated the lecture you gave. Rich McCall Junction City, KS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:45:28 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: Gathering comments Horn2004@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/22/97 6:55:07 AM, you wrote: > > < attendees (KR "elders" and new enthusiasts) I spoke with and in > conversations overheard. The safety issue. The buzz jobs - of the hanger > and of those close to the crowds and the light poles and the ultra-low > runway passes doesn't demonstrate safe flying to the general public. > Unavoidable accidents can, and do, happen at events like this. However, an > accident resulting from such activity would have been just devastating to > everyone - families, the KR group, the host airport, etc. - and would be > the talk of the aviation community, I'm sure. A couple of highly skilled > pilots (apart from the professional aerobatic people) can spur the lesser > skilled to try the same thing, having tragic results. >> > > I would agree with that point! Those boys should be glad there were no Feds > in the crowd, because their tickets would be history. I am all for flight > demos and high speed passes, but when you have an aircraft on a takeoff roll > and 3 more in the pattern and then another which decides to do a 200 mph pass > down the runway while the guy is still departing, you're gonna get somebody > hurt. Go ahead and have fun, but don't put other folks and their aircraft in > harms way with your student pilot showboating. And if you take offense at > this flame, perhaps you ought to review the regs. > > Other than the temporary loss of good judgement by some, it was an > outstanding event. I'd hate to see it ruined by a few "cowboys." > > Steve (I have my nomex shorts on now) Horn > Horn2004@aol.com I agree, there is nothing better than safe flying. Glad you got my other message. Rich McCall Junction City, KS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:47:23 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Would Ya Could Ya Should Ya. At 10:32 PM 9/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Michael, be nice now. Some of us happen to like the training wheels up >front. > >Rich McCall > > I know but I cant resist beating on Rob! Ask Randy,..its a blast! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand \ / \ _\/\/_ / __/_//\\_\_____ F-117 Having structural failure! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:01:38 -0500 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: I HATE vinylester!!!! Jeffrey E Scott wrote: > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:46:30 -0400 (EDT) MikeTnyc@aol.com writes: > >> My recommendation is to avoid vinylester at all costs, or you too may > have > >>a pair of scissors glued to the inside of your wing tank forever... > >>> > >>>Go ahead, Tell me how wonderful it is. I ain't listenin'. You > people who > >>>haven't made your fuel tanks yet, consider yourselves warned. This is > NOT > >>the stuff to use. > >>> > >> > >>Dude,...been there done that and aint ever doing it again! > >> > >> I would tell you how nice my wing tanks panels are coming along and > how > >>nice it is to flox and tape with Aeropoxy but I am willing to bet you > don't > >>want to hear about it! > > > >I thought I've read that vinylester is the most fuelproof. If true, > doesn't > >that make it worth it? > > > >Mike Taglieri > > > Com'on Mike, as a lawyer, you should surely recognize a good temper > tantrum by now. ;o) This one was complete with everything but the > stamping feet and I think that's just cause we don't have a good way to > express that over the net. > > Jeff > ------- > Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM > jscott.pilot@juno.com > See N1213W construction and first flight at > http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: > //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm Hi Jeff, Get home ok? The cowling made it back to Kansas in the trunk. Thought I'd see if your still kicking. Rich McCall Junction City, KS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:57:38 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: Re: KR: Gathering Webpage On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:33:02 -0300, you wrote: >Hello Folks; > I seem to be having difficulty getting to the sight for the = Perry >info. The web address isn't working for me, if you could explain again >what the address is or make some suggestions about how to access I'd >appreciate. Thanks Jim Jim, http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9904 http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/k97gathr.html These are the only pages that have pictures from Perry so far. I know that there will be more in the future. Let me know if you have any trouble getting to these pages. Brian J Bland Claremore, OK bbland@busprod.com ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #103 *****************************