From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:01 AM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n121' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #121 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Thursday, October 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 121 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:25:31 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Re: New web Page - Finally Way...Cool! Screaming Deal... but then it didn't come cheap. Donald Reid wrote: > > jeb wrote: > > > > Nice page Don, ready for engine yet? Got one? > > 3 words: SUE BAR ROO > > that line didn't go over well at the gathering either. > > John - Los Alamos NM > > jeb@thuntek.net / www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm > > O-200, 175 hours since certified rebuild, w/B&C lightweight alternator. > $6500 and attached to a badly dinged Vari-Eze with all VFR instruments. > Event the wife throught it was a good deal. > -- > Don Reid > mailto:donreid@erols.com > http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: EagleGator@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: KR-2 Accident In a message dated 97-10-08 22:13:38 EDT, you write: << tried to jump from the plane without a chute prior to impact and was partially decapitated. >> Jeff, any more details about this would be enlightening, like was he in a spin, stalled, etc. It could be that jumping out of this airplane (with a chute) is a bad idea and I'll need to install a BRS if I go through with spin testing. My bailout criteria may have just changed drastically. Cheers! Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:24:09 -0400 (EDT) From: EagleGator@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Limbach EO 2000 In a message dated 97-10-08 15:17:40 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know the specs and reliability of the Limbach EO 2000 engines? All I know that there is one for sale and it is 80 hp and complete with all accessories. Also, there is a O-200-A Cont. for sale for $3500 w/logs. John F. Esch Salem, OR >> Limbach engines are certified, I believe, so that speaks for their reliability. Please send me the details on the O-200, if you wouldn't mind! Thanks. Cheers, Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:30:52 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: split flaps Top 10 reasons to go for split flaps over slotted flaps: 10) They look cool from behind. 9) They are much easier than retrofitting 747 fowler-flaps. 8) You get to engineer them yourself. 7) You will the first on your block to have them. 6) They keep you in the garage longer. 5) They slow the plane down so much that you fly final approach backwards. 4) They are slightly heavier, (Murphys law, any change to plans adds weight.) 3) The extra holes you have to drill are easy to fill with dry micro. 2) Did I mention the rebate on split flaps? 1) Ross has no clue what he is talking about tonight. smithr wrote: > > Does anyone know the relative advantages/disadvantages of split flaps > versus the RR plans slotted flaps? > > I would expect that the drag on split flaps would be greater. > How much would split flaps affect the stall speed? > Installation seems easier on split flaps. > Split flaps are as of yet unproven. I'm a chicken test pilot. Is it too > risky to just try them? > Is anyone aware of any serious disadvantages of split flaps? > > Bob Smith, KR2S Albany, NY "out front, breaking wind" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: RJMOTLF@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: krnet-l-digest V1 #120 I REALLY ENJOY READING THE DIGEST IS THERE EVER ANY ACTIVE CHATS GOING ON ANY WEB SITES ABOUT KRS sorry about the caps i just started typing i was at perry lots of nice people be there next year of course i was born ther too ralphj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:38:40 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Testing, testing Rex, You are BACK!!!!! It works... Reminds me of a story.... a GADO official at Arlington told this last year. A builder who was known at a Texas strip had been building a Thorp T-18 for about 10 years. He recently had been taxi testing for the past month. The FAA official new the builder, and was in the tower when the pilot was doing high speed taxi tests. At one point the builder decided to make the first flight. After getting clearance from the tower, the T-18 left the ground and the pilot came on over the radio... " I T F L Y S !!!!!!!!! I T R E A L L Y F L Y S !!!!!!!!!" It took several minutes before the tower frequency was clear for other traffic. -- Ross Rex Ellington wrote: > > G'Day All > > Is it working for me yet ?? > > Rex Ellington > Rex T. Ellington > ellingto@gslan.offsys.ou.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:42:45 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Limbach EO 2000 All I know was that it is based on the VW design. Seems like it would work... anyone have more details? -- Ross John F. Esch wrote: > > Ross > > Does anyone know the specs and reliability of the Limbach EO 2000 > engines? All I know that there is one for sale and it is 80 hp and > complete with all accessories. Also, there is a O-200-A Cont. for sale > for $3500 w/logs. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:01:23 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Re: krnet-l-digest V1 #120 Ralph, Actually, I think Mike Mims had a chat setup for a while on his site. You could join krnet-l (instead of the digest), but then... you would have to keep an eye on your mailbox. This in turn fills up my mailbox. Bad news. -- Ross RJMOTLF@aol.com wrote: > > I REALLY ENJOY READING THE DIGEST IS THERE EVER ANY ACTIVE CHATS GOING ON > ANY WEB SITES ABOUT KRS sorry about the caps i just started typing i was > at perry lots of nice people be there next year of course i was born ther too > ralphj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:24:06 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: 2-strokes At 10:21 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mark > >My brother had a Rotax mounted upside down (plugs down) and done >everything right to keep it running properly. When it came time to have >it overhauled and when the case was opened up to replace the main >bearings, they fell to pieces. I think my opinion is that the main >bearings were not getting the proper oil lubrication (his engine was not >oil injected) due the engine being upside down and gravity. Now, I >could be in left field on this idea, but oh well. It is just an idea. Actually your right on the money John. After high school I spent a few years rebuilding 2 stroke engines for snowmobile racing teams, this included everything from boring and re-sleeving cylinders, to rebuilding cranks. I ported and polished, played with rotary valve timing, built tuned pipes, played with after market reeds, reshaped combustion chambers, bored carbs venturis, rebuilt clutches, built up a four cylinder out of a couple of two cylinder Fujis (Polaris) and who knows what else! I worked for a machine shop that specialized in taking someone's money and building them a very cool toy in return! I also did a little oval ice racing on snowmobiles and motorcycles. So I guess you could say I have built them, went fast with them, and I have blown them up! Anyway,...the first time I saw a Rotax (yes I rebuilt of few Rotax's too) mounted upside down I almost crapped my pants! Unless you have oil injection (and it has to be the right kind of oil injection) your main bearings will never last! I guess you could run a blubbering rich oil mixture and pray some oil gets to the bearings but I doubt it will. I don't care what anyone tells you,.. a two stroke gasoline engine does NOT belong in an airplane!! PERIOD!!! I say this based on years of tuning and playing (yes I was factory trained by Yamaha, Polaris and Arctic Cat) with literally hundreds or engines from 25 hp to 200+hp. Notice I said airplane, two strokes have had great success installed in ultralites, they are not worked that hard and in an ultralite you go to full power to fly and retard to idle to land. A 2 stroke gasoline engine is like a switch, its either on or off (idle or 100%). You make one work to hard while powered back off of full throttle with varying outside temps and altitudes and your asking for BIG trouble! Heres some things to think about, lose the stinger off your exhaust and there goes up to 80% of available power, foul a plug on a two cylinder,..same result, 80% power gone! Select one heat range to hot of a spark plug and burn a hole in your piston in a matter of SECONDS, fly through a thermocline (spelling??) and seize and engine, again in a matter of SECONDS. There is no reaction time or warning period. Please don't mis understand me, I love two stokes!! There aint nothing like grabbing a thumb full of throttle when your sitting five inches off the ice and 200 screaming horse power comes to life while 500 little carbide tipped ice picks claw at the frozen lake below you,.. meanwhile the acceleration is so intense you develop tunnel vision because of the gravity forces on the fluid in your eyes. You soon notice your coming up on turn one and you hang off the inside running board with your face inches from the ice below and you slide through the corner at over a 100mph!!! ARHH ARHHHH ARRHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now a two stroke turbo blown diesel is another story! I want one!! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:31:24 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: KR-2 Accident At 01:24 AM 10/9/97 -0400, you wrote: . My bailout criteria may have just changed drastically. > >Cheers! >Rick Junkin >EagleGator@aol.com >St. Charles MO Can you convince the boys at MD to loan you a Advanced Concept Escape System II (ACES II) or the 4th Generation Ejection Seat or maybe you could get one of those old Martin Bakers from a surplus F-4! :o) Check out this page! http://www.ejectionseat.com/4thgnpic.html and this page: http://mineral.uafsme.alaska.edu/ferret/byoc/tci.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:34:44 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: split flaps At 10:30 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >Top 10 reasons to go for split flaps over slotted flaps: > >10) They look cool from behind. > 9) They are much easier than retrofitting 747 fowler-flaps. > 8) You get to engineer them yourself. > 7) You will the first on your block to have them. > 6) They keep you in the garage longer. > 5) They slow the plane down so much that you fly final > approach backwards. > 4) They are slightly heavier, (Murphys law, any change to plans > adds weight.) > 3) The extra holes you have to drill are easy to fill with > dry micro. > 2) Did I mention the rebate on split flaps? > > 1) Ross has no clue what he is talking about tonight. > Have another beer Ross! :o) How about not installing flaps period! A speed brake (belly board) will work just fine! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:42:20 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Flipping over KRs! At 10:06 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mike, > My recommendation, while you've got her belly up.. paint it! > > I thought... well just one more thing, but once I had it flipped, >I wanted to hang the engine... just gets harder to flip back over. > Good Idea Ross! I think while she's upside down I will do all the foam and glass work and belly board (speed brake) of course but will also glass the belly from the firewall back to the main spar with a good wet layup and a layer of glass then paint the entire belly with epoxy,..sand it down and apply the primer. I doubt I will ever flip it upside down again so I better do everything while its there! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:35:03 -0500 From: Mark Pierce Subject: Re: KR: 2-strokes Yes John, I've heard of some of the same symptoms with the same suspected cause.. - -- Mark Pierce markpi@oz.sunflower.org PA22/20 N3817P - SWPC Nieuport 11 N4140C - The Dawn Patrol KR2S (future) http://www.sunflower.org/~dstarks/ John F. Esch wrote: > > Mark > > My brother had a Rotax mounted upside down (plugs down) and done > everything right to keep it running properly. When it came time to have > it overhauled and when the case was opened up to replace the main > bearings, they fell to pieces. I think my opinion is that the main > bearings were not getting the proper oil lubrication (his engine was not > oil injected) due the engine being upside down and gravity. Now, I > could be in left field on this idea, but oh well. It is just an idea. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR > > Ross wrote: > > > Mark, > > Terrific post! Thanks, I enjoyed it. > > -- Ross > > > > Mark Pierce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ... Good, I would like to hear a little about 2-stroke engines. If > > I > > > remember > > > > right, the last time someone tried to talk about 2-strokes it > > didn't take > > > > long for the subject to change. Read some real strong opinions , > > but not > > > > much helpful information.... > > > > > > I'm not a two-stroke guru by any means but I've got time behind (or > > in > > > front of) them both in ultralights and Avid Flyers and lots of guys > > at > > > my airport fly them on a variety of aircraft. I first had a Cyuna > > then > > > Rotax (several). Never had one fail me but then I took extra pains > > with > > > them. My personal rules were: > > > > > > 1. Do not overprop them. Let them run up into the 6000-6250 range > > full > > > bore, and a 5500-5800 cruise (depending on the engine and the ops > > > manual). Main thing is not to lug them down. No explanation, just > > > experience. > > > > > > 2. Always use quality fuel with enough octane (Amoco Gold or Silver > > for > > > example) and assure good mixing (unless you have oil injection). > > Use > > > the right oil and mix according to the specs of the oil. Do not > > think > > > that if 50-to-1 is good, 40-to-1 is better. It is not better. Some > > > > > oils are for liquid cooled engines and some are for air cooled. Be > > sure > > > to use the right one. I used both Quicksilver and Pennzoil Premium > > for > > > air cooled engines with no problems. Other brands gave me more > > varnish > > > and carbon which sticks rings and causes hot spots. > > > > > > 3. Replace spark plugs and fuel filter every 20 hours, period. > > They > > > are cheap and it seems to work. I always had to mount the engine > > with > > > the spark plugs pointed down and assumed that in addition to always > > > being oil soaked, the oil in the combustion mix fouled the plugs a > > > little quicker than in a 4 cycle and the oil in the fuel would foul > > a > > > fuel filter a little quicker than raw gas. > > > > > > 4. Keep them cool, but not too cool. Rotax says head temps up to > > > 425-450F is OK but I would strive for 375-400. Too cool and you'll > > get > > > more carbon and fouled plugs. Too hot and you'll score > > > cylinders/pistons (very quickly). Also, I was always warned about a > > > > > "cold seize" if you don't let a 2 cycle warm up a little. On > > startup, > > > the piston heating up and expanding faster than the cylinder. Never > > > > > happened to me but a couple of guys think it happened to them. > > > > > > 5. Don't let the engine run below the 800-1200 RPM range where the > > gear > > > box "rattles". Gear boxes are almost bullet proof these days but > > they > > > will wear quickly if you run them in the "backlash mode". > > > > > > 6. Don't mess with the lengths and volumnes of the exhaust pipe on > > the > > > engine side of the muffler too much. You will reduce your total > > power > > > output. > > > > > > After removing the Rotax (503) from a Nieuport and installing a VW > > (1835 > > > w/Zenith carb), I could make some direct comparisons: > > > > > > 1. The VW did not have the high frequency vibration of the 2 cycle. > > > > > > 2. Throttle control was more consistent with the VW. The 2 cycle > > would > > > gain 100-200 RPM with the slightest nose down and loose 100-200 with > > the > > > slightest nose up. Not sure why other than just more sensitive to > > loads > > > since it was generating its' power from RPMs rather than CCs. > > > > > > 3. The 2 cycle (w/reduction) had more static pull and climb out but > > the > > > VW could pull away in level flight. > > > > > > 4. The 2 cycle was more sensitive to environmental factors (temp, > > > humidity). Some days it would run good and some it would not. > > Until > > > you convince yourself to use the recommended book sizes for your > > average > > > conditions, you can drive yourself crazy replacing main jets trying > > to > > > chase the smoothest combination. The VW doesn't seem to care what > > kind > > > of day it is. > > > > > > 5. The 2 cycle seemed to need more care and attention than the VW. > > I > > > was always twixing with the Rotax but on the VW I just change oil, > > check > > > valve clearence, and clean the air filter once or twice per year. > > > > > > Emotion: > > > I much prefer the operation, snarl and solid feel of a VW or Subaru > > > better than the whine of a 2 cycle but I would have no fear of > > flying > > > behind a well installed and maintained 2 cycle engine. > > > > > > Mark Pierce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:32:03 -0500 From: Mark Pierce Subject: Re: KR: Limbach EO 2000 The folks that came to the KR Gathering in the brown Cessna twin had a KR with a Limbach engine in it. They are from Kansas City, Johnson County Executive Airport (OJC), but I don't recall their names. Might they be on the resistration list ? I'll ask around to see if I can determine their name & number. - -- Mark Pierce markpi@oz.sunflower.org PA22/20 N3817P - SWPC Nieuport 11 N4140C - The Dawn Patrol KR2S (future) http://www.sunflower.org/~dstarks/ John F. Esch wrote: > > Ross > > Does anyone know the specs and reliability of the Limbach EO 2000 > engines? All I know that there is one for sale and it is 80 hp and > complete with all accessories. Also, there is a O-200-A Cont. for sale > for $3500 w/logs. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 02:01:50 -0500 From: Mark Pierce Subject: Re: KR: 2-strokes Ross wrote: > > Mark, > Terrific post! Thanks, I enjoyed it. > -- Ross > You're welcome. Glad to finally be able to contribute..... - -- Mark Pierce markpi@oz.sunflower.org PA22/20 N3817P - SWPC Nieuport 11 N4140C - The Dawn Patrol KR2S (future) http://www.sunflower.org/~dstarks/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 02:09:34 -0500 From: Mark Pierce Subject: Re: KR: Avionics I have also had very good luck with Cheif Aircraft. They really seem to care if you are satisfied. Have had a bad experience with Aircraft Spruce when I lost $250 and an artificial horizon they refused to stand behind or even discuss. Haven't had contact with them since (as if they missed my pittly little orders...) - -- Mark Pierce markpi@oz.sunflower.org PA22/20 N3817P - SWPC Nieuport 11 N4140C - The Dawn Patrol KR2S (future) http://www.sunflower.org/~dstarks/ Ross wrote: > > Well, > I called Chief Aircraft and ordered the D1 Package, > this includes the TX760D COM, the TRT250D Transponder and > the AT3000 Encoder. All the suppliers (Aircraft Spruce, > Pacific Coast Avionics etc) had the same advertised price > for this package, but I was quoted a price $158 lower than > the price in the current Chief catalog for the D1 package. > It appears that there is a "minimum" price that can be > advertised as all the suppliers advertise the same price. > > Regarding supply. The com radio is available, it seems that > the problem is with the transponder. I ordered the dual tray, > and asked to see if they could throw in an installation manual > for both units so hopefully the transponder will arrive eventually, > and everything will be pre wired. > > I will keep eveyone posted on how the delivery goes. I chose > Chief Aircraft over Aircraft Spruce or Pacific Coast Avionics > (Other West Coast Suppliers) primarily due to my previous experience > with Chief Aircraft. (I've spent about $300 with them previously > so big deal right?). I think Chief does enough avionics busines to > be able to get me a alternate transponder within a year if Terra for > some reason cannot deliver. > > Expect me to be whining in about six months if I haven't got my > transponder. Also, I will definately let you know if there are any > quality issues with the product. I was concerned about this as they > have such a large backlog. In the end, it is the small size, low weight > and power consumption that won me over. I think it will be worth > the wait. > > -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:04:21 -0400 From: "Driessen, Marcel" Subject: AW: KR: Limbach EO 2000 ---------- Von: 'MAIL@CSERVE ' Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Oktober 1997 01:45 An: Driessen; 'MAIL@CSERVE ' Betreff: Re: KR: Limbach EO 2000 Sender: owner-krnet-l@teleport.com Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) with ESMTP id BAA16768 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA23303; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail1.teleport.com (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:40:50 -0700 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA22985 for krnet-l-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from teleport.com (ip-tangent1-24.teleport.com [206.163.120.121]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA22751 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343C6ED5.A773D35F@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:42:45 -0700 From: Ross Organization: KRNET Administration X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: krnet-l@teleport.com Subject: Re: KR: Limbach EO 2000 References: <19971006140937.5352.qmail@hotmail.com> <3439BBCC.37A78FBB@teleport.com> <343B0A21.3C7BF739@cyberis.net> <343BDBBD.45D61DB1@cyberis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-krnet-l@teleport.com Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com Precedence: bulk All I know was that it is based on the VW design. Seems like it would work... anyone have more details? -- Ross John F. Esch wrote: > > Ross > > Does anyone know the specs and reliability of the Limbach EO 2000 > engines? All I know that there is one for sale and it is 80 hp and > complete with all accessories. Also, there is a O-200-A Cont. for sale > for $3500 w/logs. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR Limbach Engines are quite popular here in Europe. They are VW based and they are available either certified or non-certified (for experimental use). Since I'm at work at the moment I will trie so send some specs and prices for the Limbach EO 2000 tomorrow. Marcel Driessen KR2S-Builder (boat on wheels stage) Meerlo, The Netherlands e-mail: driessen@krohne.mhs.compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:57:59 -0700 From: Alessandro Pecorara Subject: KR: LIMBACH engines From a 1995 brochure: Limbach L 2000 E0 is a certified engine (used in many production motor-gliders); single magneto and wet sump pressure lubrication. Suffix is for the type of propeller hub: e.g. E02 - fixed pitch; EC2 - fixed pitch pusher, etc... It was priced DM 18,500; - - Maximum hp (5'): 80 / 3400 rpm - - Continuous hp: 70 / 3000 rpm - - Compression ratio: 8.4 : 1 - - Dry weight approx.: 74 Kg (163 lbs) - - Fuel consumption (approx.) 12 ltrs/hr (3.2 US gals) By the way, Limbach builts both certified and not certified engines, with single and double magneto ignition: the cheapest was the L 2000E.X at DM 9,950. Limbach also supplies of tachometer, pressure and temperature gauges (not included in the price, of course!). Best regards. Alessandro Pecorara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:04:04 -0400 From: "Scott Goodman" Subject: KR: Aircraft Design Greetings to all. I am a new member of the list as well as the KR fan club. I'm a senior in college attending East Carolina University in Greenville, NC, with a major in the Industrial Technology program. For years I have been scanning advertisements and magazines for a kit plane that fit my needs (looks really cool, has a decent range, and respectable cruise). I believe that I've found it. The KR series of aircraft seem to be exactly what I've been looking for. Unfortunately, I don't have nearly enough cash to start a KR project, and even if I did, I don't have the space for it (though I'd probably do it anyways-I'm quite impulsive ; ] ). In order to quench my thirst for flight, I am considering ultralights. I have perused a couple thousand web pages and have concluded that the US Aviation-Cloud Dancer has caused me to salivate more than any other UL design. Following are the specs; please pardon the length: Top Speed, mph ........... 63 Cruise, mph ............ 55 Range, s.m. ............ 250 Rate of Climb, fpm ... 600 Takeoff Distance, ft... 120 Landing Distance, ft.. 170 Service Ceiling, ft. ....15,000 Engine Used .......... Rotax 277, 28hp Fuel Capacity, gal. .. 5 Empty Weight, lb. ... 253 Gross Weight, lb. .... 520 Height, ft. ............... 4.5 Length, ft. .............. 20.0 Wing Span, ft. ........ 40.0 Wing Area, sq.ft. .... 133.0 No. of Seats .............. 1 Landing Gear ......... tailwheel Bldg. Materials ...... sheet metal,tube,fabric Bldg. Time .............160 hrs Kit Cost ................ $9,275 No plans are available for this aircraft, but the specs (if correct) are incredible to me-over 200 miles on 5 gallons of autogas(!) and I can run about as fast as this thing stalls. Being a hands-on type of guy with some design & drafting experience, I would like to emulate this motor-glider with my own design. I have built and flown a dozen or so radio controlled model aircraft, and I've piloted a C172 for about 20 minutes (dont have my PPL yet-graduation present from dad when I finally get out of school). I am confident in my ability to design, build and pilot this craft, but I have never embarked on such a task as this. My goal is to design and build a craft with similar specs to the Cloud Dancer with a minimal budget. I've designed a portion already, including such innovations as a hand laid fiberglass tail boom, full flying elevator and hot-wired foam ribs to name a few. I'm lacking in the areas of load calculations, materials implementation, airfoil selection, covering materials and sources for the materials I'll need while building, among other things. There is a 172 page publication sold by the makers of the VolksPlane-1, Evans Aircraft, entitled 'Lightplane Designer's Handbook' which is advertised to cover aerodynamics, engines, props, properties of wood, aluminum, steel, composites, flight & landing loads, et cetera. If anyone has reviewed or evaluated this text, comments would be helpful before I order. I would appreciate any help on this project that you can supply. If anyone objects to this project being addressed on this list, or if there is another list more closely pertaining to these topics, please let me know. Thanks in advance. Regards, Scott Goodman, Unlicensed Dreamer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:01:19 +0100 From: Antonio Pereira Subject: Re: KR: split flaps Donald Reid wrote: > smithr wrote: > > > > Does anyone know the relative advantages/disadvantages of split flaps > > versus the RR plans slotted flaps? > > > > I would expect that the drag on split flaps would be greater. > > How much would split flaps affect the stall speed? > > Installation seems easier on split flaps. > > Split flaps are as of yet unproven. I'm a chicken test pilot. Is it too > > risky to just try them? > > Is anyone aware of any serious disadvantages of split flaps? > > > > Bob Smith, KR2S Albany, NY "out front, breaking wind" > > According to "Theory Of Wing Sections" by Abbott and Von Doenhoff, split > flaps compare favorably to slotted flaps. The split flap, consisting of > a moveable section of the bottom surface, generally have a lower drag > when retracted (due to the smaller gap area) and a similar, but > slightly lower section lift coefficient. Stall speed should be close. > The split flap will also generally have a higher drag coefficient when > deployed. This means the nose can be lower on approach. On the down > side, it does look like they have a higher pitch moment that slotted > flaps. This means more trim change with deployement. A higher drag > coefficient can also mean a bit more trouble on a go-around. As to > construction, split should be easier. All in all, it looks to me like > personal preference. > -- > Don Reid > mailto:donreid@erols.com > http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Beware that with the increase of the moment coefficient, you may end up with a lower stabilizer authority. In a short coupled airplane like the KR, I would try to find some data on this before going ahead and modifying it. You may find that you need to limit the angle of flap deployment, or build a bigger stab, or a longer tail. These trade-off's may not look as good as they do know. Happy Building Mendes Pereira ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:58:50 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: KR: Limbachs Back in the Covington, TN, KR Gathering days, a fellow showed up from Canada in a very nice Limbach powered KR-2 from Canada. One of the smoothest and quietest (no doubt due to the exhaust treatment) VW type engine I've heard. The following year, I think, he sold the aircraft, started building a Lancair and soon after completion, died in it after a classic engine-out-and-attempt-to-return-to-runway-resulting-in-a-stall accident. Limbachs are significantly higher in price than VW conversions found here in the US. Noticed that at an Oshkosh booth, Limbach reps were particularly agitated by people who make comments like "Isn't that a just VW engine?" Don't know the major mechanical differences tho. Ed Janssen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:45:06 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: split flaps JEHayward@aol.com wrote: > > Hey, Don.... I've had it in my mind about using flaps that would extend > rearward as they went down thereby additionally giving more wing area aft of > the aircraft balance point. I thought it might help a possible near-aft CG > situation at slow speed approaches. I asked about this earlier this year but > never saw any replies. Have you ever seen anything like this done or what > are your thoughts about it? I noticed something like this on some Cessnas. > > Jim Hayward If they move on a track like a Cessna, then they are Fowler flaps. Yes you get more area and increased lift, but they are probable the hardest to build. The theory books show fowler flaps that look almost like window blinds, with multiple flaps/gaps that all retract into a recess and streamline but there is no way I would want to make then, no matter how much extra lift you get. To complicated. If the hinge point is down below and well behind the leading edge of the flap, then they are slotted flaps. They give a bit less increase in area than fowler and the gap is not as effective in controlling the airflow. BTW the gap between the wing and the flap seens to make the difference in section lift coefficient. I think most people use the slotted is because it is a good compromise. Fairly easy to build and decent lift increase. The split flaps are probable the easiest to build, and can be augmented with a belly board. Another BTW is that a belly board is also a split flap, sort of, since the fuselage is an airfoil, sort of, and does create lift. The belly board will increase the lift to a certain degree. Since the fuselage is not a good airfoil, the belly board is also not a really good flap, but a great control for angle of attack on approach. The least effective flap is the plain flap, which is hinged like a typical aileron. It does not increase the wing area, nor make any attempt to control the gap flow. - -- Don Reid Still running on at the mouth in Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:51:36 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Aircraft Design Scott Goodman wrote: > > Greetings to all. > I am a new member of the list as well as the KR fan club. I'm a senior in > college attending East Carolina University in Greenville, NC, with a major > in the Industrial Technology program. Big snip > In order to quench my thirst for flight, I am considering ultralights. I > have perused a couple thousand web pages and have concluded that the US > Aviation-Cloud Dancer has caused me to salivate more than any other UL > design. Bigger snip > materials I'll need while building, among other things. There is a 172 > page publication sold by the makers of the VolksPlane-1, Evans Aircraft, > entitled 'Lightplane Designer's Handbook' which is advertised to cover > aerodynamics, engines, props, properties of wood, aluminum, steel, > composites, flight & landing loads, et cetera. If anyone has reviewed or > evaluated this text, comments would be helpful before I order. > Scott Goodman, > Unlicensed Dreamer I like that one myself, UL motorsailing lookslike a lot of fun. I haven't read that book so I can't comment directly, but even the bad-to-poor reference books I have gotten over the years still have grains of wheat in the chafe. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:19:36 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: 2-strokes Mike (Mims)- Thanks for the post on your experiences. I am still investigating this subject, particularly the AMW 3-cyl, just because WEIGHT seems to play such a big factor in KR design and operation. Plus, one factor that maybe moderates some of the failure peculiarities you mention is WATER COOLING a 2-stroke. The 'instant seize', varying temps and altitudes, etc. are hopefully evened out with water cooling. I would love to hear any further comments on water cooled (drawback: adds weight!) But I'm still planning to use a soob. My experience with 2-strokes comes strictly from air-cooled bikes (burned top of a piston in Yamaha 125; stuck a piston in another one; ran a 250 Yamaha Big Bear for a couple years, resulting in reducing Japan's national debt and boost NGK's stock price by purchase of spark plugs). Then I got me a BSA 441 Victor one-lunger. If I could have kept getting parts for that beast... Thanks Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:28:24 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: cheap GPS Me again, KRNetters My 2 cents' worth on handheld GPS- I bought a Magellan 2000 last year, cost me $138 from Cabela's, after reading an article in Sport Aviation. If you are an 'El Cheapo', renter pilot like me, this baby is all you need to have. I use it when flying Super Cub around here, and I can find anything I need. I have programmed in all local airports, plus some that I fly to occasionally, plus of course my house (so I won't get lost in the fog) and office. It gives me groundspeed (MPH or KTS), heading and nav info, time and distance to station, GOTO nearest airport (airports that I have programmed in, of course; no database cards), even altitude (not too accurate). Forget DME! Forget VOR! Would I love to have a moving map with database? YES, SIR!; I'm a gadget junkie and avionics nut. Get a pair of headphones on me and some black knobs to turn, and I'm a kid again. But for plain, simple, and cheap- well, what can I say? With spare batteries and a case, I paid less than $150. But don't get the Garmin that's the same price- it only goes up to 99 MPH or KTS (they don't want pilots to use it?) Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:33:44 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Flaps KRNetters- Has anybody investigated the use of spoilers, ala Precise Flight, for use in glide path control, rather than flaps? The things I'm thinking of mount to the rear face of the main spar, pop up out of the top of the wing with a scissor action; not spoiler "flaps" on top of the wing like on sailplanes. Hey- I like the idea of the speed brake "belly board" too; a guy could run the PRT (pilot relief tube) right out the bottom. Pop that puppy open a tad when the need arises, and... Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:52:22 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: 2-strokes At 06:19 AM 10/9/97 PDT, you wrote: >Mike (Mims)- > >Thanks for the post on your experiences. I am still investigating this >subject, particularly the AMW 3-cyl, just because WEIGHT seems to play >such a big factor in KR design and operation. The AMW 3 banger is a Fuji Heavy Industry (Polaris) 600, 750, or 900 cc snowmobile engine. I don't know how they have been working out but the first generation 3 bangers (600cc) Centurion Indy engines would ruin lower bearings in a heart beat! Polaris fought with this for about three years until a complete redesign of the crank along with better bearings and oil injection "almost" cured the problem. If the AMW is not oil injected I would approach it with caution! I could never figure out why most of the aviation 2 stroke guys were scared of oil injection. Seems the first thing they do is disconnect it and run pre mix! I can say I have NEVER saw a Mikuni injector pump fail! Don't be afraid to use it, it does a much better job of oiling your engine than pre mix does! We disconnected it on some machines but for the most part I preferred to use it! Yes even while racing! Hey I finished almost every race, DNFs suck! One reason some racers disconnected the oil injection was so they could play with synthetic oils and ratios. Not something you want to do in an airplane in my opinion<--(its worth what you paid for it) ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mimsmand@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~mimsmand ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #121 *****************************