From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:12 AM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n140' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #140 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Wednesday, October 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 140 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:37:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Interresting question. I got the suppliment and it really relies on the main drawings for most of the information. It does show you the extra bay in the fuselage and the larger tail feathers. I am just starting mine so will deffer judgement to Mike, Mark and the others. I don't regret buying the suppliment though. Steve Eberhart Trying to figure out 3D CAD so I can document what I am going to build. On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Patrick Flowers wrote: > Mark Langford wrote: > > > > TANDEM2 wrote: > > > > >i guess i should just get a set of plans and do what i need to do > > > > That'd be my advice. > > Okay, so the consensus is that support and assistance from RR is nearly > nil and the new plans are Jeanette's equivalent of vaporware. Just buy > the plans and depend on KRnet and other builders. None of this is news, > but bears repeating for the sake of the following question. > > If I build a KR, I will likely follow Mark's lead with a longer fuselage > and the NLF airfoil(except I like the idea of hotwiring sytro cores). > Based on this, is it worth $75 to get the 2S supplement? What's to be > gained? > > Patrick > -- > Patrick Flowers > Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:42:37 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Chat/KRNet At 12:29 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-22 09:15:54 EDT, you write: > ><< My guess is they don't sleep. Probably how they keep spouses happy at > the same time. > > What's the trick guys? >> > >They could tell you...but they then would have to kill you...it is best not >to ask. > >Randy > Has something to do with area 51! > ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:53:00 -0700 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR: Rotary Mazda engines Hey Oscar, Do you have a web site for Ross? Dave Moore At 05:08 AM 10/22/97 PDT, you wrote: > > >>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:10:52 -0700 >>From: Ross Youngblood >>To: krnet-l@teleport.com >>Subject: Re: KR: http://www.krnet.org >>Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com >> >>Sorry, >> >>Can anyone else help? >> >>-- Ross >>TANDEM2@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> ross, do you know if duncan aviation engines is still around or who >is doing >>> the mazda engines now? >>> thanks >>> tandem2@aol.com >>> john >> > >John; > >I got some information from Ross Aero on redrives, and they started >their enterprise on the Mazda rotary engine conversion. Presumably, >that is still something that they do. Drop me a personal e-mail if you >want any info that I have on this (anybody). > >Oscar Zuniga > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > David Moore Turnkey1@MSComm.Com Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:55:45 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Re: Retractable U/C hinge brackets Email (reply) to cary@storm.ca Web Page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/index.shtml KR page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Kobus de Wet > The reason that ZS-WPX has not been airborne yet is because I found two of > the three U/C hinge brackets cracked. These are the brackets that attaches > to the U/C beam and rotates around the bolt in the bracket against the > spar. > Both these brackets are castings of very poor quality. There is no way that > I can determine if these brackets came from RR (USA) or from a local > supplier that was dealing out of Lanseria Airport (Pretoria area) > The bottom line is it does not matter where these come from, what does > matter is that all builders and operators should have a good look at their > U/C hinges. > The cracks runs through the outer two holes in the brackets. > In rebuilding the KR2 that I have, I dod a complete inspection of the U/C brackets and turfed to lot. All had cracks. One was 3/4 the way across. These were RR originals and had seen less than 80 hours of service, including several "hard" landings. Nevertheless, one "hard" landing more on these thinks and they would have separated from the spar and separated the piolt's legs from the pilot. Good idea for all owners to have a good look there. - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:52:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Actually, all the talk of late about the plans should be directed to the Manual. All you have to do is look at the manual for the Cozy or any of Rutan's designs on the Rutan CD to see that the KR manual is extreamly lacking. Especially if you remove the almost 1/3 of it that is directed to the obsolete retract gear installation. Luckily most of what you need is on the plans and the rest gan be gotten here on KRNet. Steve Just my opnion, worth every penny of what you paid for it. Double your money back if not satisfied. On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Micheal Mims wrote: > At 12:23 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >If I build a KR, I will likely follow Mark's lead with a longer fuselage > >and the NLF airfoil(except I like the idea of hotwiring sytro cores). > >Based on this, is it worth $75 to get the 2S supplement? What's to be > >gained? > > > >Patrick > >-- > >Patrick Flowers > >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > > > > Yes,.. as much as I would like to tell you to blow off the KR2S supp. I cant > , You should buy them. Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) > > ________________________________ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:46:42 -0400 From: "Scott Goodman" Subject: KR: Re: Rotary Mazda engines There is a 3 page article in the January '96 Issue of KitPlanes Magazine about Mazda Rotaries. Mostly about David Atkins' Rotary engines, but lots of information. If you cant get your hands on the mag try: Atkins Aviation Co, Inc. 16715 Meridian East, Bldg K-A Puyallup, WA 98443 (206)848-7776 I believe they manufacture rotary enignes and possibly parts for a home-conversion. Hope this helps. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:06:59 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: "Speed with Economy" ok, so what is mike arnolds web site address? thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:27:29 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: KR: Wierd Email Sequel Strange, I've rec'd John's and Mike's response to my 2S Supplement email, but I've never received my original email back. Either teleport's or ibmnet's mail servers must be weirding out. - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:31:09 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Micheal Mims wrote: > > Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) I'm probably taking you too seriously(I should know better), but this is *really* not an option, is it? The KR2 "manual" and plans list for $165 while the 2S Supp is $75. Wonder if they have a discount for just the plans and pass on the so-called "builder's manual"? Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:46:59 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re: Rotary Mazda engines thanks for the info, they are only 30 mins from me, will check them out/ tandem2 in holding ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:48:43 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) well, i will just get the whole thing, that should make RR happy? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:35:16 -0400 (EDT) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Chat/KRNet In a message dated 97-10-22 12:43:50 EDT, you write: << ><< My guess is they don't sleep. Probably how they keep spouses happy at > the same time. > > What's the trick guys? >> > >They could tell you...but they then would have to kill you...it is best not >to ask. > >Randy > Has something to do with area 51! > >> I think that is the shoe size...errrrr...or was that the collective IQ? My brain hurts, so I'm not sure. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:19:32 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Rotary Mazda engines No web site for Ross Aero. They are your basic grassroots, hands-on types. I'll get with turnkey1 and tandem2 privately; fax copy of info. I'll research tonight to see what they have on Mazda rotaries, but I seem to recall it's all too big for KRs, like 150 HP plus? Oscar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:24:57 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Re: KR: Wierd Email Sequel >Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:27:29 -0400 >From: Patrick Flowers >To: krnet-l@teleport.com >Subject: KR: Wierd Email Sequel >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >Strange, I've rec'd John's and Mike's response to my 2S Supplement >email, but I've never received my original email back. Either >teleport's or ibmnet's mail servers must be weirding out. >-- >Patrick Flowers >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > This has been happening to me, too. Thought it was just me and my cheesy, cheapo, freebie choice of e-mail providers. Oscar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:32:50 PDT From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Re: KR: Chat/KRNet >From: BSHADR@aol.com >Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:35:16 -0400 (EDT) >To: krnet-l@teleport.com >Subject: Re: KR: Chat/KRNet >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >In a message dated 97-10-22 12:43:50 EDT, you write: > ><< ><< My guess is they don't sleep. Probably how they keep spouses happy at > > the same time. > > > > What's the trick guys? >> > > > >They could tell you...but they then would have to kill you...it is best not > >to ask. > > > >Randy > > > > Has something to do with area 51! > > >> > >I think that is the shoe size...errrrr...or was that the collective IQ? My >brain hurts, so I'm not sure. > >Randy > Randy, let's just get it over with and cut this thread... does it have anything to do with O*LITE oil-impregnated, bronze bushings? How about anything to do with ET foaming home? How about CUTESY DRIVEL? Still readin' Oscar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:51:21 -0700 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) TANDEM2@aol.com wrote: > > i was wondering about this too, mark said there is nothing in the plans about > the width , sooooooo, is the kr2s plans worth the money? if so, fine, if not > speak up someone. > thanks > tandem2 in holding-------------------- The S supplement also has some good details and info about reinforcing the firewall for a heavier motor. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net - ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:20:10 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: KR: Epoxy sealer On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:44:28 CDT, you wrote: I finally was able to connect with Rex Ellington and got the info sheets on Smith & Co. They are now on my web page: http://www.busprod.com/bbland/kr2s.html Sorry Rex for all the trouble you went through to contact me! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:24:53 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: Re: KR: ICQ from Mirabilis On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:04:56 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone out there running ICQ from Mirabilis? Check it out at: > >http://www.mirabilis.com/ > >If your interested in running a direct PC to PC chat program this is = pretty >cool, it also alerts you when other users are online. If anyone out = there >is running it my UIN is 401497 Check it out! We could hold builder = forums >because multiple users can join in on existing chat sessions. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > I urge everyone to do this. I spent a while last night talking to Mike and it was great to be able to almost instantly get a response. GO GET IT!!! Download it and add me to your contact list! My UIN is 4233793. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:41:53 -0400 From: "Scott Goodman" Subject: Re: KR: "Speed with Economy" Mike Arnold's Web Site (the only one on the web that I know of): http://www.crl.com/~marnold/ Scott - ---------- > From: TANDEM2@aol.com > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: "Speed with Economy" > Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 2:06 PM > > ok, so what is mike arnolds web site address? > thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: ECLarsen81@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Jabiru 2200 engine Guys, while I think it's great that they would like to add a firewall forward pakage to the KR line, I'm a little leary after finding this post at Rec.aviation.homebuilt. I did see this motor at Oshkosh and asked a lot of questions. I like the looks and the wieght (lack of) but it bears some looking into. Ed Larsen Mechanical Designer All the Fun, Half the Money! << Subject: Re: Jabiru 2200 engine From: k4zdz@aol.com (K4ZDZ) Date: 9 Oct 1997 04:10:38 GMT Hi Dale... I've been collecting numerous responses from Aussies since tying such a request into the various "au" avaition interest groups. While hardly scientific in survey terms..., I have heard the following gripes: 1. Numerous burned valves and replaced cylinder heads within 100-200 hours of operation. 2. Numerous broken pushrods (ties in with above). 3. Short life on exhaust/muffler components (rust outs). 4. Inability to develop more than 2900-3100rpm regardless of prop and pitch (eg, only developing 60-70HP?). On the good side, no one has "badmouthed" Jabiru's customer service and willingness to stand behind their product (free replacement parts and several engines repurchased outright!). Remember, while the Jabiru 1600 has been around for a while (30,000 hour+ in service), the Jabiru 2200 is "new" and still having teething problems. As for me, I'm still collecting data and waiting to see whether Chris Heinz of Zenair sticks with the Jabiru (it's the engine of choice in the new Gemini CH620! Jim in Chulouta, FL >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:01:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ECLarsen81@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Jabiru 2200 engine Add this to my previous post. This was added to "rec.aviation.homebuilt" concerning the first post. It is good to see a company stand behind its wares!!! Ed Larsen Mechanical Designer All the Fun, Half the Money! Hi from Australia. I don't have any fixed numbers on the failures but from what I see the Jabiru factory are improving their product all the time. The most significant change I know of was the replacement of the valves, the addition of rotators on both valves and heavier valve springs, all apparently to reduce the possibility of a hot spot developing on the valves. The Jabiru I fly only pulls 2900 rpm on climb and 3050 in max level flight, but this may be a factory limitatition due to the category of aircraft the Jabiru is certified under down here. But it seems to climb very well (a lot better than the 1600 Jab!), and better than a Rotax 912 powered Jab I sampled recently (but much much quieter...). The factory are superb to deal with, way ahead of anyone in aviation (or any other industry I've come across). I saw the engine factory recently and was very impressed with the attention to detail and heavy use of CNC machinery. It would put Mr Lycoming to shame! Regards Phil. >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:07:54 -0600 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Re: KR2 For Sale: WAIT!!!!!!!! One point to consider. If the plane is almost complete, you need to determine how you will get it certified. Unless you can prove you built 51% (whatever PROVE means), you may not get it signed off to fly. Will let others comment on my rambling. Ron Lee >Been on the KRnet for one week. There is a KR2 project just about complete >in Nebraska. Spoke with the owner tonight. He has a HAPPI, turbocharged >1835 engine. $7500 for engine and airframe. Sounds good to me but I don't >know much. Could use advice and counsel on how to proceed. >The knowledge and experience displayed by you guys is quite impressive. >Appreciate any help. Thanks. Hank Feinberg > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:09:42 -0400 (EDT) From: JEHayward@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Vinyl Ester for finish coat In a message dated 97-10-22 08:09:47 EDT, you write: << That doesn't help me finish my two wing tanks that are 95% done, but it IS what I'd expect from AS&S. I'm not going to be real happy if I have to use another type of vinylester to glue the tops on my tanks and seal all of the lines in place. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >> Does Wicks have it. I've not done much business with AS&S mainly due to these type posts but have always gotten good support from Wicks. All my KR stuff has come from them. Jim Hayward ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:57:45 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Just my opinion, but I think the -2S addendum is probably more valuable then the -2 plans if you're planning to build a -2S There are a number of changed dimensions in the addendum that you will need, not to mention a completely different sized tail and some added compression struts in the fuselage sides. with the purchase of the -2 plans, what you are really paying for is the tired old constrction manual that does still contain some good "how to" stuff and a bit of explanation of some of the dimensions. All in all, you really need all the parts of the plans. See Mark Lougheed if you need better and more plans in addition to what RR sends. KRNet and the newsletter has the rest of the information you'll need to get your plane built. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:38:34 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Trim System On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:16:47 -0700 Micheal Mims writes: >For those of you interested in the spring trim system I uploaded two >drawings to the "Ideas" page. You can get there by going to: > >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims/ideas.html > >and scrolling down to the bottom and clicking on the links. Check it out >and send your thoughts! The pulleys are cheep ($3 each) 1.5 inch nylon >units with SS bushings and I made the handle from 2024 t3 X .125 . The two >friction washers are old cutoff wheels from the Dremel tool, the spring is >from my tool box (spare junk). I am using 1/16 cables and trim springs from >AS&S. I had thought of using Nylaflow tubing to route the cables but >decided the pulley arraignment would be much more secure, after all we don't >want one of these units pulling lose do we Randy? :o) >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims Mike, Have you looked at the trim system in a Glassair? It is simple and produces the same sort of trim control you are looking at except that the springs are in compression. It also preloads the elevator control to stiffen it up a bit. You can even control the amount of preload you want on the elevator controls. No external trim tab is used. If I had seen it before mine was done, that's how mine would have been built. As it is, I may very well convert mine to that style in the future. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:09:27 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: KR: Re: KR2 For Sale: WAIT!!!!!!!! FWIW, most of the DARs and FAA inspectors are paper pushers and listening for you to say the magic words, "I built at least 51%." Beyond you saying that, I don't think they care. During my inspection I mentioned that I bought this project and finished it out. The inspector first tried to stop me from saying something he didn't want to hear, then listened for me to say the magic words. Then he just smiled and said, "That's what I wanted to hear." The 51% rule is an FAA requirement, and you should be prepared to offer some sort of proof, but in general, your word is proof enough. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:07:54 -0600 Ron Lee writes: > >One point to consider. If the plane is almost complete, you need >to determine how you will get it certified. Unless you can prove >you built 51% (whatever PROVE means), you may not get it signed >off to fly. > >Will let others comment on my rambling. > >Ron Lee > >>Been on the KRnet for one week. There is a KR2 project just about >complete >>in Nebraska. Spoke with the owner tonight. He has a HAPPI, >turbocharged >>1835 engine. $7500 for engine and airframe. Sounds good to me but I >don't >>know much. Could use advice and counsel on how to proceed. >>The knowledge and experience displayed by you guys is quite >impressive. >>Appreciate any help. Thanks. Hank Feinberg >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:17:36 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Vinyl Ester for finish coat On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:09:42 -0400 (EDT) JEHayward@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 97-10-22 08:09:47 EDT, you write: > ><< That doesn't help me finish my two wing tanks that are 95% > done, but it IS what I'd expect from AS&S. I'm not going to be real happy > if I have to use another type of vinylester to glue the tops on my tanks > and seal all of the lines in place. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >> > > Does Wicks have it. I've not done much business with AS&S mainly due to >these type posts but have always gotten good support from Wicks. All my KR >stuff has come from them. > >Jim Hayward > Last time I checked, Wicks didn't carry Vinyl Ester Resins. Dan Diehl does. Once you get used to one companies promotion method with the vinylester resin, I would advise against changing to another company since most do not use the same amount of promoters in their resin. You need to do some test batches first if you change. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: EagleGator@aol.com Subject: KR: Aircraft Certification I went to my friendly Flight Standards District Office today (they really WERE friendly!) and picked up an Amateur-Built Aircraft Certification Package that contains all the paperwork and directives you need to get your N number and work your way through to getting your airplane certified. For those of you who aren't lucky enough to get this kind of service from your local office, here's what you need to ask them for: 1. AC 20-27D Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built aircraft 2. AC 20-139 Commercial Assistance During Construction of Amateur-Built A/C 3. AC 39-7B Airworthiness Directives 4. AC 65-23A Certification of Repairmen 5. FAA Form 8130-12 Eligibility Statement 6. FAA Form 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness Certificate 7. FAA Form 8610-2 Application for Repairman Certificate 8. FAA Form 8050-2 Bill of Sale 9. FAA Form 8-50-1 Registration Application 10. FAA Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership They also provided some other info, including FAA Certification Tips, EAA Certification Tips, Tips for Flight Testing, Sample Weight and Balance Forms, AD Compliance Sheets, Letter of Intent (used to schedule your certification appointment), and a notice about being consistent on all forms with the make and model of your airplane. I believe Jeff Scott was in the process, at one time, of documenting everything he did to get his airplane certified (sorry Jeff, I think I just nominated you for your next KROnline article.....) so maybe he can lead us through the real chronology of the application and certification process. Cheers! Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO "It looks like an airplane, so my work must just be starting..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:39:14 -0700 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) >Micheal Mims wrote: >> >> Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) > >I'm probably taking you too seriously(I should know better), but this is >*really* not an option, is it? The KR2 "manual" and plans list for $165 >while the 2S Supp is $75. Wonder if they have a discount for just the >plans and pass on the so-called "builder's manual"? > >Patrick >-- >Patrick Flowers >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. If you want every detail spelled out for you, then you will not like the manual. The 2S plans give you more dimensions, the new wing planform, the wing rib patterns, and more details on the wing construction. They also detail (well you know, detail) the stronger firewall, and extra bays. If you want to build a 2S, you need the supplement. My 2S worth. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:57:58 +0000 From: Steve Bennett Subject: Re: KR: New Plans? please keep in mind that most companies that deal in sport aviation are not IBM's. R&D funds etc. are expensive to come by. S. Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:06:29 -0500 From: John Roffey Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Robert Covington wrote: > > >Micheal Mims wrote: > >> > >> Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) > > > >I'm probably taking you too seriously(I should know better), but this is > >*really* not an option, is it? The KR2 "manual" and plans list for $165 > >while the 2S Supp is $75. Wonder if they have a discount for just the > >plans and pass on the so-called "builder's manual"? > > > >Patrick > >-- > >Patrick Flowers > >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > > Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might > not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have > normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. If you want > every detail spelled out for you, then you will not like the manual. > > The 2S plans give you more dimensions, the new wing planform, the wing rib > patterns, and more details on the wing construction. > > They also detail (well you know, detail) the stronger firewall, and extra bays. > > If you want to build a 2S, you need the supplement. > > My 2S worth. > > Robert Covington I feel the way Robert does about the manual and the 2S supplement. I don't think I would know what direction to take in the construction sequence without the manual, but the net is offering a tremendous wealth of clues and questions that are very helpful in the process of building. One thing I find interesting, is that everyone tends to follow the posters who are moving along in thier projects the quickest as they are the ones solving the mysteries for us who are taking our time deciding what and how to do next. A little note on dealing with Wicks, I recieved my spruce last week and just got the shipping notice with the inventory slip in the mail to-day. Included on the packing slip was a charge for $57. for shipping. When the Next Day Freight delivered the box of wood, I paid the driver $53.04 for shipping. Is Wicks double dipping? I'll call them to-morrow and get this straightened out and post the results. By the way, the spruce has gone up a lot this summer, $839 for the 2S kit. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:19:34 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) TANDEM2@aol.com wrote: > > well, i will just get the whole thing, that should make RR happy? You know, the issue(at least to me) is not the money as much as it is the principle. I can't think of any other purchase where I would accept not only lack of support and product development, but also downright antagonism for not building to the letter of the plans. If I were soliciting bids, and a vendor came in with that attitude, they'd be on their butts on the sidewalk out front in less than five minutes! So, unless there is critical info on the 2S supplement necessary to build the aircraft that I have in mind, I can't see paying for them. And the aircraft I have in mind is not a strictly built-to-the-plans 2S. Patrick "I'd feel better if they used their own product" Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:29:43 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Trim System At 06:38 PM 10/22/97 -0600, Jeffrey E Scott wrote: >Mike, > >Have you looked at the trim system in a Glassair? It is simple and >produces the same sort of trim control you are looking at except that the >springs are in compression. For some reason "using a spring in compression" and "simple" don't seem to go together in my mind. Maybe someone should draw a picture! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:56 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) At 06:39 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert Covington wrote: >Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have >normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. Beleive it or not Robert I agree with you 100%, BUT,...and its a big one! No not yours! For what you get I think the price is WAY off. The KR2 plans should be in the neighborhood of $50.00. For the amount of money spent on the KR2 and KR2S plans I would and did expect A LOT more. Take a look at your hanger mates RV plans (blue prints) and compare! Or take a look at the EZ plans or even the Dragonfly plans which have been called a joke by some of the Dragonfly builders, they put the KR plans to shame! I spent $25 on a set of plans for a 25 foot sailboat a few months ago and got REAL BLUE PRINTS along with a manual with ten times the text as the KR plans. Something is wrong with that picture don't you think? Its time to re-do the plans and give the builders something for their money, maybe even a construction video and sample pieces of wood and glue. The guy who is doing the Vison is doing it right. RR could learn a little from this guy! I offered to re-do the manual for free with better pictures and more text to help understand construction in multiple WP formats (MS Word, AmiPro, WordPro etc.). That was a year ago,................waiting and wondering! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:47:57 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) At 10:06 PM 10/22/97 -0500, John Roffey wrote: >Robert Covington wrote: >> >> >Micheal Mims wrote: >> >> >> >> Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) >> > >> >I'm probably taking you too seriously(I should know better), but this is >> >*really* not an option, is it? The KR2 "manual" and plans list for $165 while the 2S Supp is $75. Wonder if they have a discount for just the plans and pass on the so-called "builder's manual"? I was joking! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:49:19 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: New Plans? Steve Bennett wrote: > > please keep in mind that most companies that deal in sport aviation > are not IBM's. R&D funds etc. are expensive to come by. S. Bennett Understood, but few companies have done so little in such a long time as RR. In this case, money is not an issue as Mark is willing to clean up the plans pro-bono. Even though that would not entail design changes, it would be an improvement to their product, which BTW is the plans. Plus, how are they going to conduct R&D themselves when they don't even maintain a test-bed aircraft? Since they don't seem prepared to do it themselves, I would think they would be supportive of builders that are working on well thought out alternatives, such as Mark's selection of the NLF airfoil. I think we all realize the limitations that Jeanette and crew are working under, but they have quite a resource in the sheer number of KR builders. If they just weren't so ultra-defensive in their approach to changes, we might have quite a different aircraft. As I've stated several times, I'm not trying to slam RR. I'm just stating my reasons for having reservations. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:24:54 EDT From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: QUESTION:CarbHeat Plenum & Linkage >Here is your KRNET admin... looking for more hints? > >While I'm down under the engine here. I've got this great carb heat >muff, and a tube that could go someplace, but need some ideas on >fabricating a butterfly valve, or other door that will not JAM up etc >in flight. I can bend metal etc, but I don't have "the" idea on how >I'm going to give my Ellison some Carb heat. I think the valve is >my major stumbling block. Any ideas would be GREATLY appriciated. > > -- Ross Don't you have Tony Bingelis's books? He's got tons of stuff on this. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:31:16 -0400 From: Dennis Ambrose Subject: Re: KR: Rotary engines At 09:27 PM 10/21/97 -0600, you wrote: >There was a RV-3 at Copperstate with a Mazda rotary mounted on it and the >owner making a pitch for selling his book about using rotaries. =A0I didn't >pick up his stuff and don't recall his name, but it seems to me that he >was also featured in Sport Aviation a couple of years ago. =A0If nobody can >come up with his name, I can probably call a friend that's hot to use a >rotary in his RV and get the name of the book and author. His name was probably Tracy Crook and it was probably a RV4 that I have talked about on this net. I have the book and it is great reading. I'll tell you, he convinced me , if the KR could handle a 340 lb. firewall foreward package I would do it in a minute. (actually it would take much longer) but the Mazda would be a suitable repl. for a 320 like his was.=20 The only option a KR pilot has is possibly a 1/2 Mazda conversion. The rotary makes sense and can't fail catistrophically like a recip. engine can and they last FOREVER. Tracey put new seals in his and not much else and he thinks a 2000 hr. T.B.O. will be low!! His ad is in the back of every Kitplanes and he lives in Florida. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:40:17 -0700 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) >At 06:39 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert Covington wrote: >>Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might >not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have >>normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. > >Beleive it or not Robert I agree with you 100%, BUT,...and its a big one! >No not yours! I ain't going there...except to say, no, not yours, too. ;) LOL For what you get I think the price is WAY off. The KR2 plans >should be in the neighborhood of $50.00. For the amount of money spent on >the KR2 and KR2S plans I would and did expect A LOT more. Take a look at >your hanger mates RV plans (blue prints) and compare! Or take a look at the >EZ plans or even the Dragonfly plans which have been called a joke by some >of the Dragonfly builders, they put the KR plans to shame! I spent $25 on a >set of plans for a 25 foot sailboat a few months ago and got REAL BLUE >PRINTS along with a manual with ten times the text as the KR plans. >Something is wrong with that picture don't you think? Its time to re-do the >plans and give the builders something for their money, maybe even a >construction video and sample pieces of wood and glue. The guy who is doing >the Vison is doing it right. RR could learn a little from this guy! I >offered to re-do the manual for free with better pictures and more text to >help understand construction in multiple WP formats (MS Word, AmiPro, >WordPro etc.). That was a year ago,................waiting and wondering! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims I can agree with that for sure. They do seem pricey for what you get. The 2S plans (with KR-2 plans) ought to be what the KR-2 plans cost alone. The KR-2 and KR-1 should be around $80-100 on down I think. Since she won't pay for it, or say,"OK", I think some kind soul should just write a better manual with better pictures and give it to her, with all the reproduction rights she needs to use it. Assuming it is worth using. If you could spell better Mike, I would nominate you. :) PS I'll pay you $10 or do you a new shirt if you change the DragonFly picture wording at the bottom of your WWW page from "I'm not prejudice!" to "prejudiced!" Been a year now! :) Robert Covington ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #140 *****************************