From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 7:47 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #178 krnet-l-digest Wednesday, November 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 178 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:22:36 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: KR: Getting an AC is easy for homebuilt airplanes. In a message dated 97-11-25 09:17:24 EST, you write: << I would wonder how far down you would have to strip it to where it loses its identity; obviously, you can't dismantle the boat, and if you took it down to that stage, you would be right on the thin "50%" line for claiming to be the new builder, if you kept the firewall forward and wings. Looks like you'd have to scrap a lot of stuff. I think you should just register and fly- after all, what can the original owner do to you? >> For it to lose it's identity you would only have to strip the nameplate and n-number off it to make it into parts. From there you have to add your own nameplate and n-number and a good dose of courage because you'll be flying in an airplane about which you know nothing about the construction. This response is straight from a local DAR who was doing an Airworthiness Inspection on a Hummelbird. The FAR's only say that 51% has to be amateur-built, not that you have to be that particular amateur that built it. By putting your name as the manufacturer, you are saying that the parts are sufficient to do the job in your opinion as the manufacturer of an experimental airplane. We put many, many, preformed and preassembled parts on our planes, and airframe parts are no different. If you sell this plane, and you don't want the liability of being listed as the manufacturer, you only need to remove the n-number and nameplate from it and then it's just parts as far as the DAR is concerned. You keep the Airworthiness Certificate, nameplate, registration, and all documentation, and then any pilot that flies it without getting an Airworthiness Certificate has violated the FAR's and that would be the first thing the FAA puts at the top of the accident investigation findings "THIS AIRCRAFT WAS FLOWN WITHOUT AN AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE AND THUS WAS NOT AIRWORTHY. Even if someone could prove it was airworthy at a prior date, and had an AC just prior to the date of sale, it doesn't produce any liability for you because it did not have an AC on the day the pilot flew it if you kept the AC. If you really want to insulate yourself, unscrew every nut and bolt and dismantle it then take a picture of it on the date of sale with you and the buyer picking up his "project". Anything that needs work is a project and a project is not ready to fly. Many people are extremely confused on the differences between getting an Airworthiness Certificate as Experimental Amateur-Built versus getting the Repairman's Certificate. They are two distinct items, the Repairman's Certificate being much harder to obtain since records of you building it are required. For the Airworthiness Certificate all you have to produce is an airworthy airplane, and a Registration (N-number). You cannot even get the Repairman's certificate from a DAR, only from the FAA itself, and you apply for it separately from the AC. The only thing about the completed airplane that you have to prove is that it is either on the FAA's 51% list for amateur-built airplanes OR that an amateur(s) did 51% of the work on it. I think everyone can attest to the fact that not only is the KR-2 on the 51% list, but that it also takes a little more ;-) than 51% of the time required to complete all aspects of the kit even if you have purchased all the RR premolded parts. In fact, it probably takes 99% of the time required to complete the kit when you consider the time it took to fabricate the RR parts. This 51% rule only really requires documentation of your building time when you're trying to certify as experimental amateur-built a kit that may have been so highly prefabricated at the kit factory that it only takes a few hours ( like 50-100) to complete it, such as the trike ultralight types. I am not keeping track of my building time and don't plan to. When I'm done only then will I be able to know how far along I was at any time in the past. So when I'm done, I'm done. I think if I knew I had 1500 hours in it and was only 45% done I would just shoot myself. I prefer to think it will only take ME 600 hours and I already have 200 in it after a year and a half, so I have another three years to go. I don't consider head-scratching time to be part of the building time, that's part of my learning curve which is the other thing I will have when I'm done: An Education. All the head-scratching doesn't take nearly the same energy as building. This brand of mathematics is called Motivational Mathematics. If you do the math right, you get motivated to keep going. If you use regular math, it's much harder to keep going. (tongue planted firmly in cheek). - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:22:52 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: Re: NLF: A modest proposal Oscar Zuniga wrote: >Or is everybody just going to call it "the Langford wing", as in "the >Diehl gear" or whatever? You're obviously a man of great wisdom and intellect, Oscar! But I didn't design the thing. I just found it and applied it the KR2S. (Maybe I should wait until somebody flies it and survives before I say that). The real credit should probably go to a USAF aerodynamicist that I had a long-running email conversation with at the end of '95 and early '96. I made his acquaintance after he emailed me as webmaster for Griffon Aerospace. He's the one that asked in January of 96 "have you considered the new NLF(1)0115 airfoil?" after I told him I was planning to use a 63215. In response to my revelation that I planned to make my horizontal stab adjustable he said: "As for incidence, it seems to me that for stability and trim, what counts is the difference between the wing and tail. I'd take a stab at my cruise angle of attack, and the the wing incidence so as to minimize the drag on the fuselage. Then I'd set the tail incidence at what was required for trim. As you say, the latter is frought with all manner of uncertainties, so it is best to make it changeable." His opinion, and that of Lionheart's designer Larry French, reinforced my notion that I was on the right track with my "adustments". Bottom line is that maybe we should call it the "Web airfoil", since it truly is a product of the web. It's dispersal and proving in the wind tunnel will be a direct result of the Internet. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:35:20 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: rudder blocks RudderBlockHeads, I just finished drilling out the Nylon (copyright!) blocks for mounting my rudder pedals. I've long dreaded doing that because of an article in a past Newsletter that Monte wrote. He detailed his frustration at trying to drill out Nylon (R) using a drill press, even though he used a new bit and a drill press vise. I recall him saying something about "pitching them out in the street, since the garage door was open". It was with trepidation that I took the afternoon off to tackle this job, but the good news is it works great and probably took 15 minutes to drill all four holes. I even started with a handicap: I used Nylon that was only 3/8" thick. That means that when drilling the 5/8" holes for the rudder bars, I had only 1/8" of "meat" on each side of the hole. It worked great, and I really don't know what his problem was. Just thought I'd let you rudderblockheads get a good night's sleep, at last. I'm now in the process of figuring out the proper geometry for the brake cylinder acutation using my stretched rudder bars and my 10-1/2 shoe. That's probably why I have 1500 hours in and I'm only half way done. I stand around and scratch my head four hours for every hour that I work... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:46:01 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: Re: Getting an AC is easy for homebuilt airplanes. Tom wrote: > I think if I knew I had 1500 hours in it and >was only 45% done I would just shoot myself. Tom, I wrote my previous post prior to receiving your insight into the building process. My very thoughtful wife hid the guns about three years ago... And don't worry. This critter's gonna fly someday. : ) Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: spoilers Let's consider the effect spoilers would have on approach path. Unfortunately you would have to raise the nose higher for a given descent rate. Floating would be far less of a problem over the runway. Flaperons on the other hand pitch the nose down and increase lift, which lowers the descent rate for a given pitch angle. I thought of a new aileron control setup which would accomodate the flaperons easily. Have you ever seen the push-pull aileron cable pushrods that TEAM aircraft use? It's about a 3/8" diameter cable in a tight fitting tube with very little play in the tube. Make a gentle, sweeping 90 degree turn within the stub wing and run them straight to the aileron brackets. The beauty of the idea is that it's simple, plus the ailerons can be drooped by changing the position of the inner tubing mount. A simple bellcrank can slide the two inner tubing mounts away from each other about 1/2" each, and the ailerons will be drooping, yet maintaining center. All this hardware can be attached to the rear of the main spar under the sling seats. The only question is this: Will the TEAM Aircraft cables allow flutter in an aircraft that goes twice as fast as the Minimax designs? All the Minimax builders swear by them even though they sound sticky and flimsy. Does anyone have direct experience with these cable? Even if you don't use the flaperon idea, they are far simpler than cables, pulleys, nicopresses, and bellcranks and then pushrods. For all you folks interested in cheap tricks, Team Aircraft states that reflexing their ailerons UP a few degrees results in a 2 knot increase. Of course the Team airfoil is a huge flat-bottomed airfoil which could really use a little streamlining anyway, but maybe there's something to this? - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:55:48 -0700 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Re: The Langford Mods >I wrote my previous post prior to receiving your insight into the building >process. My very thoughtful wife hid the guns about three years ago... > >And don't worry. This critter's gonna fly someday. : ) > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL Frankly Mark, I am anticipating your flights with baited breath. Or maybe it is Bad Breath. Regardless, the mods you are making have the potential for substantively increasing the top speed compared to a comparable stock KR. Time will tell Ron Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:11:45 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: NLF: A modest proposal At 08:22 PM 11/25/97 -0600, you wrote: Bottom line is that maybe we should call it the "Web airfoil", since it >truly is a product of the web. It's dispersal and proving in the wind >tunnel will be a direct result of the Internet. > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL HOw about the: Cyberfoil-WebWing :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:05:08 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Re: how much to build a boat? At 08:21 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >Just how many hours does it take to finish the boat? I have not kept track of my hours but I estimate it's 200 hours. I've already bought the engine and all other RR parts except for bellcranks and pulley brackets. >-Tom > > I had my basic boat built in two weeks, and it is built from spruce and certified AC plywood so it wasn't cheep! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:56:18 -0600 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Elevator Trailing Edge Question At 11:37 PM 11/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >Say... this is a good idea! But FLOX may be tougher. > >I think at the pointy end of the trailing edge, you might have >trouble with delamination, and you can't get the glass to go around >a sharp edge. (There was some discussion that you don't really want >knife edges on trailing edges... but I digress). > >You might have great luck glassing one side with the balsa, removing >it and floxing later, or dremeling out the end etc... > > -- Ross > >JEHayward@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 97-11-11 15:27:16 EST, you write: >> >> << I had LOTS of problems with the trailing edge. I ended up >> building up a large blob with FLOX, then sanding it to shape. >> There was one tip here to use a mylar strip over a streight piece >> of metal/wood to get a true trailing edge, that sounded like a >> good idea. >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone had tried using a triangular piece of balsa wood >> and covering that with fiberglass and fairing it into the wing. >> >> Jim Hayward > If you are interested, I used a small wood dowel on the trailing edge after glassing one side. Before glassing the second side, I bonded the wood dowel and cut out about 1/2" of the foam in front of the dowel and applied flox to this area and glassed over the second side. Bobby Muse(N122B) bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:52:45 -0800 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: rudder blocks Mark Langford wrote: snip > I just finished drilling out the Nylon (copyright!) blocks for mounting my > rudder pedals. > I just want to point out that nylon blocks are not required as a mount. The next size larger tubing, with a 0.058 thick wall, will serve quite well. This is what is done on old-fashioned tubing fuselages. The bearing tube should be about 1 inch long, with a flange welded to it, and should have a small hole drilled in the top so you can add a drop of oil. This is what I have done for my pedals, stick, flap torque tube, and canopy latch torque tube. The steel has a hard surface and will not bind or gaul. There is only a small amount of relative motion at a slow speed, so it makes an acceptable bearing. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:03:52 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Hotwiring foam >I have the templates made to hot wire the foam core and UPS just >delivered the foam :-) Ordered enough blue foam from Wicks to hot wire the >tail cores for my KR-2S also. So, the model is officially under >construction and I can also officially say that I have started my KR >:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-) > >Steve > Hi, Steve My question (dumb), since I've never hotwired anything except automobiles- to core out the hollows inside the wing core, does one just slice down into the wing, then later patch the cut made through the top or whatever? And, doesn't the hotwired core kind of melt back onto itself, or do you whack it with something to get it out? Or am I missing something? I've never even seen a video of hotwiring... Thanks Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:03:58 -0800 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: spoilers TomKR2S@aol.com wrote: snip > For all you folks interested in cheap tricks, Team Aircraft states that > reflexing their ailerons UP a few degrees results in a 2 knot increase. Of > course the Team airfoil is a huge flat-bottomed airfoil which could really > use a little streamlining anyway, but maybe there's something to this? > -Tom All airfoils have what is called a pitch moment. In a symmetric airfoil, like on the tail, the pitch moment about the aerodynamic center is zero. In a typical airfoil, the pitch moment about the aerodynamic center is a negative number. This means that while the airfoil is creating lift, it is trying to pitch nose down. In a conventional layout (wing in middle and elevator in the tail), this nose down force must be couneracted by the tail pushing down harder. The faster you go, the harder the pitch down force is and the harder the tail has to push down to compensate. Reflexing the trailing edge of the ailerons or flaps up will decrease the pitch moment of the airfoil. The tail will not need to push down as much and the overall drag will decrease. Since the drag decreases, the plane flys faster. The definition of the aerodynamic center is to point in the airfoil at which the pitch moment is constant. The pitch moment is also expressed in terms of the 1/4 chord, but is this case, it is not constant, unless it is a symmetric airfoil. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:19:51 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: missing something Well my company has unknowingly paid me to read the plans from cover to cover and I seem to be missing a couple of things. I dont recall seeing a parts list that includes specifications. I just have the general descriptions along with how much it costs to buy it from RR. Specifically I'm interested in things like what weight BID to use, and I'd also like to have the Specs on the foam. Did I miss something? I thought I'd bother you all with these silly questions before I call RR. Who actually works (at their paying jobs) the day before thanksgiving? (especially when the plans arrived yesterday) Richard Parker KR2S #861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:13:28 EST From: KR2 616TJ Subject: KR: Web Page Update. I finally got the geocites site uploaded. You can click on the link on http://members.iclub.org/kr2616tj/ or go directly to it at http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ I'll me changing the geocities site more often and I will always have more pictures there also. The new pictures are on the flying page and misc. page, check out the upside down Maule on the misc. page. John, I've got your jeb page link at geocities. Remember if I've got you linked, return the favor and put the geocities add. on yours. Thanks. Back to that XSX!!???SSXXX wiring harness. Dana Overall kr2616tj http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:26:23 -0500 (EST) From: Horn2004@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: KR: Another look at Dual ignitions In a message dated 11/26/97 3:13:28 AM, you wrote: <> I used to own a 1993 Ford Ranger pick-up which had the 4 cylinder engine with dual plugs. Reason for dual plugs was more complete burn of air/fuel mixture to both increase efficiency and reduce emissions. Can't remember the exact set-up since I never had to go under the hood. It was an excellent engine. And yes, most racing engines these days are running dual plugs. A call to a good speed shop might yield some inside information regarding the set-up. Steve Horn Horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:34:15 -0500 (EST) From: Horn2004@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: KR: spoilers In a message dated 11/26/97 5:24:58 AM, you wrote: <I'm using split flaps on my stub wings, as well as my outboard wings. >These provide almost as much lift as the stock flaps system, but will >provide more drag to slow you down and "plant" you once in ground effect. But Mark, what if during departure one of your flaps deploy and you find yourself doing aileron rolls on departure? I think your crazy! It will never work! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca.>> Might be better than getting hit by a truck. You never really know....;0) Steve Horn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:55:25 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: rudder blocks At 08:52 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote: >Mark Langford wrote: > snip >> I just finished drilling out the Nylon (copyright!) blocks for mounting my >> rudder pedals. >> > >I just want to point out that nylon blocks are not required as a mount. The >next size larger tubing, with a 0.058 thick wall, will serve quite well. Well then,..I guess I would like to point out neither of the above methods are required, as you can use phenalic (spelling) blocks like I did! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:01:15 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Hotwiring foam At 06:03 AM 11/26/97 PST, you wrote: >My question (dumb), since I've never hotwired anything except >automobiles- to core out the hollows inside the wing core, does one just >slice down into the wing, then later patch the cut made through the top >or whatever? And, doesn't the hotwired core kind of melt back onto >itself, or do you whack it with something to get it out? Or am I >missing something? I've never even seen a video of hotwiring... > Oscar, my name is not Steve but I play him on TV. NO really,.. you hot wire up into the core from the bottom and go around the inside of the lightning hole template and back out the same place you entered the core. You don't need to worry about the cut at all. Just micro over it and install glass as you normally would. When me and Brad hot wire my cores should I video tape it? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:11:51 -0700 From: Bob Bryenton Subject: RE: KR: Hotwiring foam Please I would be interested in seeing this "Sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield" Bob Bryenton Project Leader Synapse Publishing 8308 - 114 Street P.O. Box 52146 Edmonton, AB Canada T6G 2T5 Phone: (403) 492 - 7937, (403) 453 - 1799 Fax: (403) 492 - 7253 E-Mail: bob.bryenton@medlib.com -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims [SMTP:mikemims@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 9:01 AM To: krnet-l@teleport.com Subject: Re: KR: Hotwiring foam At 06:03 AM 11/26/97 PST, you wrote: >My question (dumb), since I've never hotwired anything except >automobiles- to core out the hollows inside the wing core, does one just >slice down into the wing, then later patch the cut made through the top >or whatever? And, doesn't the hotwired core kind of melt back onto >itself, or do you whack it with something to get it out? Or am I >missing something? I've never even seen a video of hotwiring... > Oscar, my name is not Steve but I play him on TV. NO really,.. you hot wire up into the core from the bottom and go around the inside of the lightning hole template and back out the same place you entered the core. You don't need to worry about the cut at all. Just micro over it and install glass as you normally would. When me and Brad hot wire my cores should I video tape it? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:06:33 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: missing something At 09:19 AM 11/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >I dont recall seeing a parts list that includes specifications. I just have >the general descriptions along with how much it costs to buy it from RR. > >Specifically I'm interested in things like what weight BID to use, and I'd >also like to have the Specs on the foam. > >Did I miss something? Nope you didn't miss anything Homer! The Wicks catalog has a pretty nice breakdown of all the KR parts. Welcome to the world of RR Plans! I don't really want to kick that horse again! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:21:36 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Hotwiring foam On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > >I have the templates made to hot wire the foam core and UPS just > >delivered the foam :-) Ordered enough blue foam from Wicks to hot wire > the > >tail cores for my KR-2S also. So, the model is officially under > >construction and I can also officially say that I have started my KR > >:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-) > > > >Steve > > > Hi, Steve > > My question (dumb), since I've never hotwired anything except > automobiles- to core out the hollows inside the wing core, does one just > slice down into the wing, then later patch the cut made through the top > or whatever? And, doesn't the hotwired core kind of melt back onto > itself, or do you whack it with something to get it out? Or am I > missing something? I've never even seen a video of hotwiring... > > Thanks > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Oscar, A must read for anyone building a homebuilt is Tony K's web chronical of the building of his Europa. It doesn't cover the actual hot wiring but you can get a good idea of what the cores look like from his pictures. He covers in great detail all of the trials and tribulations of building with hot wired flying surfaces. I am putting a web page together this weekend covering the construction of the wind tunnel airfoils for the nlf(1)0115 project. You will be able to see the hot wiring process as I use it. You will see some of the methods for cutting cores out of the wing section. I am building two wind tunnel models. One with 20% chord ailerons and one with 30% slotted flaps. You can get to Tony's web page at: Tony Krzyzewski tonyk@kaon.co.nz Managing Director Ph 64 9 520 4631 Kaon Technologies Fx 64 9 520 3321 Auckland New Zealand Networkers visit www.kaon.co.nz Aviators visit www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272index.html and www.kaon.co.nz/saanz/ Tony is a frequent contributor the the europa mail list. I think you can get info on the Europa list on his web page. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: missing something In a message dated 97-11-26 11:33:05 EST, Richard wrote: << I dont recall seeing a parts list that includes specifications. I just have the general descriptions along with how much it costs to buy it from RR. Specifically I'm interested in things like what weight BID to use, and I'd also like to have the Specs on the foam. Did I miss something? I thought I'd bother you all with these silly questions before I call RR. Who actually works (at their paying jobs) the day before thanksgiving? (especially when the plans arrived yesterday) >> Richard: Nah, you understand perfectly. The info you seek comes from KRNet and the archives. RR will likely refer you to one of the builders for any questions you have. So I suggest you cut out the middlewoman and go straight to the KR building source: KRNet. Lurk here for a while and we'll all help fill in the blanks. Heck, we had some of the same questions! Have a good Thanksgiving and stay tuned. Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:17:36 -0500 (EST) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: FAA Accident Report KRNetheads: Sorry for the off topic, but htis one was too good not to share. Have agood turkey day. Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excerpt from Recent FAA Accident Report Eyewitness Statement AIRCRAFT: CESSNA 172 PILOT: 30 YRS OLD, CFI, IR FATALITIES: None DAMAGE: Substantial DATE OF ACCIDENT: July 10 1982 WITNESS: Line attendant at *** airport Pilot came to airport at 9 AM 10 Jul 1982. Line boy reports padlock on his hangar door was so rusted he had to break it off with a 10# ball-peen hammer. Also had to inflate all 3 tires and scrap pigeon droppings off wind-screen. After several attempts to drain fuel strainers--pilot finally got what looked like fuel out of the wings sumps. Couldn't get the oil dipstick out of the engine but said it was okay last time he looked. Engine started okay -- ran rough for about 1/2 minute. Then died. Then battery would not turn prop. Used battery cart and although starter was smoking real good, it finally started and the prop wash blew the smoke away. Line boy offered to fuel airplane up but pilot said he was late for an appointment at a nearby airport. Said it wasn't far. Taxied about 1/2 way out to active runway and the engine stopped. Pushed it back to the fuel pumps and bought 3 gallons for the left wing tank. Started it again. This time, he was almost out to the runway when it quit again. Put a little rock under nose wheel; hand propped it; and was seen still trying to climb in the airplane as it went across the runway. Finally got in it; blew out the right tire trying to stop before the cement plant. When he taxied back in to have the tire changed, he also had the line boy hit the right wing with 3 gallons of gas. Witness, who saw the take-off, said the aircraft lined up and took off to the north. Takeoff looked fairly normal -- nose came up about 300 ft down the runway. At midfield nose came down. Engine coughed twice -- then cut power and applied the brakes which made both doors fly open and a big fat brown book fell out on the runway and released probably a million little white pages with diagrams on them. Looked like sort of a snow storm. After several real loud runups at the end, he turned her around and took off in the other direction going south into the wind. Only this time he horsed her off at the end and pulled her up real steep like one of them jet fighter planes -- to about 300 ft -- then the engine quit! Did a sort of a slow turn back toward the airport -- kinda like that Art School guy -- and about 30 ft off the McDonald's cafe she started roaring again. He did sort of a high speed pass down the runway; put the flaps down to full and that sucker went up like he was going to do an Immelman! The engine quit again and he turned right and I thought he was coming right through the front window of the F.B.O.; but he pulled her up -- went through the TV antenna and the little rooster with the NSE&W things - -- over the building then bounced the main wheels off the roof of 3 different cars in the lot -- a Porsche, a Mercedes and Dr. Brown's new El Dorado. When he bounced off the El Dorado the engine roared to life and he got her flying. Came around toward the runway and set her down -- once on the overrun, once on the runway and once in the grass beside the runway. He taxied into the ramp -- shut her down -- and ordered 3 more gallons of gas. Said it was for safety's sake. Then he asked where the phone booth was as he had to call his student and tell him he was going to be a little bit late. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:17:40 -0500 (EST) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: Loving your first airplane... KRNetheads: Boy I'm full of 'em today. I just came across this and thought you folks would appreciate the feeling it evokes. Randy Stein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You love a lot of things, if you live around them, but there isn't any woman, and there isn't any horse, not any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane. And men, who love them, are faithful to them, even though they leave them for others. Man has one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it is a lovely airplane he loses it to, there is where his heart will forever be. Ernest Hemingway ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:33:15 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: Hotwiring foam I would pay for the hot wiring tape John F. Esch Salem, OR Micheal Mims wrote: > At 06:03 AM 11/26/97 PST, you wrote: > >My question (dumb), since I've never hotwired anything except > >automobiles- to core out the hollows inside the wing core, does one > just > >slice down into the wing, then later patch the cut made through the > top > >or whatever? And, doesn't the hotwired core kind of melt back onto > >itself, or do you whack it with something to get it out? Or am I > >missing something? I've never even seen a video of hotwiring... > > > > Oscar, my name is not Steve but I play him on TV. NO really,.. you > hot > wire up into the core from the bottom and go around the inside of the > lightning hole template and back out the same place you entered the > core. > You don't need to worry about the cut at all. Just micro over it and > install glass as you normally would. When me and Brad hot wire my > cores > should I video tape it? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:00:18 -0800 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: missing something Richard Parker wrote: > Specifically I'm interested in things like what weight BID to use, and I'd > also like to have the Specs on the foam. > Richard Parker > KR2S #861 Any of the cataloges are a good source of info. In A/C Spruce, they say that 5.85 oz/sq yd boat cloth, thread count 18 X 18 per inch, part number 7533-60. I have used the 5.79 oz/sq yd cloth, part number 3733-60. It has the same thread count, but it is listed as having a more uniform strength, 250 X 225 lb/inch/ply vs 250 X 200 lb/inch/ply for the KR style. It is also a little bit cheaper. The strength numbers mean breaking strength along the direction of the weave. A sample 1 inch wide and one ply thick will support approx 250 lbs. Use the 2 lb/cubic foot foam. Urethane if you are looking for fuel resistance and styrofoam if you want to hot-wire parts. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:49:05 -0500 From: "Richard E. Parker" Subject: Re: KR: missing something > From: Donald Reid > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: missing something > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 9:00 PM > > Richard Parker wrote: > > Specifically I'm interested in things like what weight BID to use, and I'd > > also like to have the Specs on the foam. > > Richard Parker > > KR2S #861 > > Any of the cataloges are a good source of info. In A/C Spruce, they say > that 5.85 oz/sq yd boat cloth, thread count 18 X 18 per inch, part number > 7533-60. I have used the 5.79 oz/sq yd cloth, part number 3733-60. It has > the same thread count, but it is listed as having a more uniform strength, > 250 X 225 lb/inch/ply vs 250 X 200 lb/inch/ply for the KR style. It is also > a little bit cheaper. The strength numbers mean breaking strength along the > direction of the weave. A sample 1 inch wide and one ply thick will support > approx 250 lbs. > > Use the 2 lb/cubic foot foam. Urethane if you are looking for fuel > resistance and styrofoam if you want to hot-wire parts. > > -- > Don Reid > mailto:donreid@erols.com What I have a really hard time uderstanding is why cant I find this in the plans? Thats what you shell out the $245 for isnt it? I would at least expect a detailed materials list. When I was younger and first caught the flying bug I bought a set of VP-1 plans and they had a very good materials list. The VP-1 still intrigues me due to its simplicity ( the $45 for the plans is worth it just for the great reading) Rich Parker (only 1 more business trip away from starting glueing) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:58:18 -0800 From: wolfpacks@juno.com (Linda & Paul Martin) Subject: KR: Motivation flights If things are going slowly in the garage/workshop and you just can't seem to get going on your project, get some airtime. Oscar was kind enough to take me up in a SuperCub at the local field a few weeks ago and I got excited all over again. The project moves forward! Oscar's a perfectionist - because one wheel drifted close to centerline from a 20 knot cross wind gust, he wasn't satisfied and did it perfect on the go around. We both learned not to use the north 1/4 of the strip (cross wind obstructions) in strong side winds. May have saved me from messing up my shorts in the KR sometime soon. Just wait 'till I get him up in the glider. I'll show him how those spoilers work. Yes, I too asked Jeanette if anyone had put long wings on a KR2 and heard "it's not stressed for long wings". How about carbon spars? Streach it 3'? Throw in a T-tail? Hummmm... Paul (Still looking for a 2 seat motor glider under 10K) Martin Ashland, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:35:53 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Hotwiring foam At 11:33 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote: >I would pay for the hot wiring tape > >John F. Esch >Salem, OR You don't have to do that! I will make a tape and you guys can pass it around. Don't be holding your breath though, It may be after Christmas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:47:16 -0500 (EST) From: MikeTnyc@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps > In his book he did some modifications on his mustang to his >flaps to increase the angle to 60 degrees and he also modified his >AILERONS to droop down and act as wing lifting devises along with his >flaps. With both of these modifications he decreased his stall speed by >4 mph. > The modification he did to his ailerons was to put a large thumb >wheel on the push-pull tubes. By turning the thumb wheel he could >increase or decrease the length of the push-pull tubes, and that would >make both ailerons droop down at the same time. Is this how flaperons work? I've always wondered how planes that use these activate the mechanism and whether, if you could drop both ailerons on a KR at landing, you'd need any other kind of drag-inducing device at all. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #178 *****************************