From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 1997 10:21 AM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #183 krnet-l-digest Thursday, December 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 183 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:23:18 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Peel ply and hot wired cores At 10:14 AM 12/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >Needless to say, I was impressed with the procedure and will use it on my >full size KR flying surfaces. > >Steve > > Hal-a-luya Brother!! Someone has seen the light!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:30:23 EST From: rdewees@juno.com (Ron DeWees) Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:23:14 -0800 Micheal Mims writes: >At 10:00 PM 12/2/97 EST, you wrote: >>>Thanks for the info.. Are there any pilots still flying the retracts >now >>or are they essentially "recalled" because of problems? I don't know >>which plans I will be getting when the folks I got the projects get >>around to sending them. Do more recent plans or the newsletters tell >how to >convert to fixed conventional or tri gear? >> Thanks ron >> >> > >There are quite I few KRs out ther buzzing around with the retracts. >The >retracts work fine for most operations. > >As far as converting to any other gear,.. there seems to be a >different >philosophy at RR in that you don't get the plans to tell you how to do >things until you buy the part. When you buy the fixed gear you get >the >plans that shows you how to install them, when you buy the turtledeck >you >get the plan that show you how to install them etc. > > The "new" plans is kind of a mis use of wording as the plans haven't >really >changed since about 1980 and those changes were minor. This is an old >horse >here on the KRnet. You will find some people think the plans are a >joke and >then you will find people who think there great. I am somewhere in >the >middle, yes you can build an airplane from the plans and yes compared >to >other plans they are a joke. Oh well this horse stinks and my gas >mask just >failed! Later! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > Hi Michael... Thanks for the tips. Maybe I am expecting too much from the plans, but not having them at all makes even bad ones a treat. I am really looking forward to the old back issues of the newsletter but they have been almost 3 weeks getting here, so any info will be helpful. In the meantime I can start on the shop space expansion which I need in any case. Are you a KR driver and if so what is your selection of models? see you Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 14:11:03 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: Peel ply and hot wired cores Great stuff Steve! A couple questions(please keep in mind that I'm not second guessing - I just know very little about using carbon fiber), Steven A Eberhart wrote: > > Just finished putting the carbon fiber skin on the wind tunnel airfoil > for the NLF(1)0115 tests. After following several threads on other mail > lists I decided to peel ply the skins and have been very favorably impressed. > > THe procedure followed was: > > 1. hot wired the cores as shown in http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html Neat machine for cutting the cores! Any photos of the layup process? > 2. with the core nested in the lower shell applied a slurry micro epoxy > coat to the core to seal the foam. > > 3. applied three layers of carbon fiber to the top surface of the core > wrapping the carbon fiber around the leading edge about 1". THese layers > were wet out with West Systems epoxy using a rubber squeege. I thought one advantage of carbon fiber was the ability to use fewer layers. Don't the plans call for 2BID glass from the main spar fwd and 1BID glass from the main spar aft? Is 3 layers carbon fiber overkill? What was your opinion of the West epoxy? Ease of application? Odor? > 4. applied a layer of peel ply, dacron dress lining material, and wet out > with epoxy same as was done for the carbon layers. > > 5. placed the top shell back on the core and weighted down to prevent > warpage. > > 6. the whole mess was left to cure. After cure the top shell was broken > off the peel ply and then the peel ply was pulled off of the surface. > The resulting core almost looked as if it had been vacuum bagged with the > exception of having the textured finish of the peel ply. Could you have used a release film(polyethylene sheet maybe) to protect and save the shell? Would it have been worth the extra trouble to have it available for "8" below? > 7. the one inch of carbon fiber that was wrapped around the leading edge > was sanded to a taper in preparation for applying the carbon fiber to the > bottom surface. > > 8. the process was repeated for the bottom with the exception of nesting > in teh top shell as it was destroyed in the above steps. After curing > the peel ply was removed and the resulting core was about as perfect as > you can get without using a mold. THe surfaces are ready, without any > extra work for the final micro coat. I will be using the fish line > technique for applying the micro and will detail that on the web page for > the NLF wind tunnel model. Maybe I was being naive, but I thought with peelply you could sand the "texture" finish flat and be ready for primer without having to use micro? > Needless to say, I was impressed with the procedure and will use it on my > full size KR flying surfaces. Will you also use carbon fiber for your KR? I'm gonna build a 2S horizontal tail group to get my feet wet. Since I'll probably wind up building more than one, maybe I'll try carbon fiber on one of them. Thanks Steve! Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:34:52 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions At 01:30 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: >Are you a KR driver and if so what is your selection of models? >see you Ron > > Well I wouldn't consider myself a "KR" driver but I have flown one or two (regular KR2 models) and a plethora of other aircraft. I am building a KR2S with "minor" mods, longer fuselage, larger tail, less incidence, NACA 23016 airfoil, wider-larger cockpit (its BIG),scratch built windshield canopy, hotwired wing cores with tri-ply uni glass, 145hp Lycoming, and other "minor" stuff! :o) See it at my web site if you have access. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:44:12 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Peel ply and hot wired cores On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Patrick Flowers wrote: > Great stuff Steve! A couple questions(please keep in mind that I'm not > second guessing - I just know very little about using carbon fiber), After you use carbon you won't want to go back to glass. It is a little stiffer than a satin weave glass to work around a tight radius but I like it. > > Steven A Eberhart wrote: > > > > Just finished putting the carbon fiber skin on the wind tunnel airfoil > > for the NLF(1)0115 tests. After following several threads on other mail > > lists I decided to peel ply the skins and have been very favorably impressed. > > > > THe procedure followed was: > > > > 1. hot wired the cores as shown in http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html > > Neat machine for cutting the cores! Any photos of the layup process? > Will get some shortly, and put on the page. > > 2. with the core nested in the lower shell applied a slurry micro epoxy > > coat to the core to seal the foam. > > > > 3. applied three layers of carbon fiber to the top surface of the core > > wrapping the carbon fiber around the leading edge about 1". THese layers > > were wet out with West Systems epoxy using a rubber squeege. > > I thought one advantage of carbon fiber was the ability to use fewer > layers. Don't the plans call for 2BID glass from the main spar fwd and > 1BID glass from the main spar aft? Is 3 layers carbon fiber overkill? You are correct for the plane. Dr. Selig requested a thicker carbon fiber skin for the wind tunnel airfoil. Selig wants the wind tunnel to be built like a brick s**t house. The wind tunnel time is so expensive that they don't want any problems with the airfoils. > > What was your opinion of the West epoxy? Ease of application? Odor? > No odor and it is a pleasure to work with plus it sands easy. IMHO it is the only epoxy to use with micro. > > 4. applied a layer of peel ply, dacron dress lining material, and wet out > > with epoxy same as was done for the carbon layers. > > > > 5. placed the top shell back on the core and weighted down to prevent > > warpage. > > > > 6. the whole mess was left to cure. After cure the top shell was broken > > off the peel ply and then the peel ply was pulled off of the surface. > > The resulting core almost looked as if it had been vacuum bagged with the > > exception of having the textured finish of the peel ply. > > Could you have used a release film(polyethylene sheet maybe) to protect > and save the shell? Would it have been worth the extra trouble to have > it available for "8" below? > It would have been a very good idea. Next time I will use "Visqueen" (SP). There actually was a roll of Visqueen sitting within arms reach when I did the layups - wasn't thinking I guess. > > 7. the one inch of carbon fiber that was wrapped around the leading edge > > was sanded to a taper in preparation for applying the carbon fiber to the > > bottom surface. > > > > 8. the process was repeated for the bottom with the exception of nesting > > in teh top shell as it was destroyed in the above steps. After curing > > the peel ply was removed and the resulting core was about as perfect as > > you can get without using a mold. THe surfaces are ready, without any > > extra work for the final micro coat. I will be using the fish line > > technique for applying the micro and will detail that on the web page for > > the NLF wind tunnel model. > > Maybe I was being naive, but I thought with peelply you could sand the > "texture" finish flat and be ready for primer without having to use > micro? > You might be able to but it would be very easy to go through the thin epoxy layer and get into the glass/carbon. Nice thing about carbon fiber is you get black sanding dust when you get into it. The wind tunnel airfoil has to be accurate to .005" I undercut the cores and will build up a micro coat that I can profile to the exact surface contour. Dr. Selig is providing machined templates to use for the final contouring. > > Needless to say, I was impressed with the procedure and will use it on my > > full size KR flying surfaces. > > Will you also use carbon fiber for your KR? I don't know, I think I will go with a single layer of carbon BID on the tail but use two layers of glass UNI on the wings. At 19.00 a yard a wing would start to get expensive quickly. > > I'm gonna build a 2S horizontal tail group to get my feet wet. Since > I'll probably wind up building more than one, maybe I'll try carbon > fiber on one of them. > I am going to build the tail first also. It will be sparless hot wired foam with carbon fiber skins. Play with some sample layups first and you should be able to fly the first one you make. I made a short 6" section of the airfoil and finished it completely. Did screw up the first hot wired core. The Feather Cut machine does let one person do the job but the cutouts for the flap really require two using the old fashioned method. I did it my self and took a diagnal cut out of the aileron leading edge :-( glued on some new foam and continued. > Thanks Steve! > Patrick > -- > Patrick Flowers > Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:54:11 EST From: rdewees@juno.com (Ron DeWees) Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:34:52 -0800 Micheal Mims writes: >At 01:30 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: >>Are you a KR driver and if so what is your selection of models? >>see you Ron >> >> >Well I wouldn't consider myself a "KR" driver but I have flown one or >two >(regular KR2 models) and a plethora of other aircraft. > >I am building a KR2S with "minor" mods, longer fuselage, larger tail, >less >incidence, NACA 23016 airfoil, wider-larger cockpit (its BIG),scratch >built >windshield canopy, hotwired wing cores with tri-ply uni glass, 145hp >Lycoming, and other "minor" stuff! :o) > >See it at my web site if you have access. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > Wow Michael... I suppose if those mods are minor you could convert one into a Boing 777 before calling it Major mod. I will try to see your progress on the Webb. I am still looking for a local KR person to look at what I have to give ideas of possibilities. Keep us posted on your progress Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:27:48 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions At 03:54 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: >Wow Michael... I suppose if those mods are minor you could convert one >into a Boing 777 before calling it Major mod. Was meant as a joke, I was once introduced to another builder by Janetter as "A person who is building a KR with all sorts of major mods" and that was before I decided to use the Lyc or the 23016! In all likelihood I will not be using the Lycoming as it is just too big (size wise, there is no such thing as too much HP!) :o) I am looking at a DD Turbo Subaru EA-81 (for the second time) right now but as anyone who has been on this list will tell you, I have changed my mind on what engine to use more times than Clinton made fund raising phone calls from the White House. :o) I have a VW type 1, and a Lycoming at the hanger and they will be joined next week by a EA-81 Subaru. Then I guess its time to pick an engine,..any engine! Right now the VW is "dead" last on the list and Subaru first but hey,..who knows?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:06:52 +0000 From: Bruce Toscano Subject: Re: KR: Re:Useless retract information in manual It does just seem a little strange to take that attitude with all of the plans that have been sold (thousands?) and not taking the attitude of "doing it right"? Oh well, enough said. There are quite a few of us out here "doing it right" one plane at a time! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:16:16 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: KR: nlf can anyone help? tried to get into http://www.newtech.com/nlf.html and could not find, did i do something wrong or what? thanks for your help. i can also receieve voice e-mail at tandem2@aol.com tandem2 vw type 4 rules ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:19:32 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Thin air sniffers For any one who ventures up in the area of needing oxygen.. (or just likes to have good vision at night) I have a brand new never been used Mountain High EDS single place oxygen system. It includes a kevlar 40 cubic foot cylinder, altitude compensating delivery computer and all the cannulas, facemasks, seat back carry cases etc. The demand controller computer enables you to get about 40 hours out of an O2 bottle that you would typically only get about 3.5 hours out of in a blow by system. You can see the specs on the unit at their website www.mtn-high.com Its worth $1500 but I'm looking for $1000 or if someone has anything really interesting they might be willing to trade for it to further the building of my KR-2s I will consider a trade. Richard Parker 1-800-525-2857 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:43:46 -0800 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR: KR questions Ron, Click on Mike's Web page and click on the map, now where are you?, click on your state and it will show you the people who are in your state who are building KR's. Not only KR2 but 2s and 1's. Hope this helps you with your search. Dave Moore At 03:54 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: > >On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:34:52 -0800 Micheal Mims >writes: >>At 01:30 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: >>>Are you a KR driver and if so what is your selection of models? >>>see you Ron >>> >>> >>Well I wouldn't consider myself a "KR" driver but I have flown one or >>two >>(regular KR2 models) and a plethora of other aircraft. >> >>I am building a KR2S with "minor" mods, longer fuselage, larger tail, >>less >>incidence, NACA 23016 airfoil, wider-larger cockpit (its BIG),scratch >>built >>windshield canopy, hotwired wing cores with tri-ply uni glass, 145hp >>Lycoming, and other "minor" stuff! :o) >> >>See it at my web site if you have access. >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Micheal Mims >>Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship >> >>mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >>http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims >> >> >Wow Michael... I suppose if those mods are minor you could convert one >into a Boing 777 before calling it Major mod. I will try to see your >progress on the Webb. I am still looking for a local KR person to look at >what I have to give ideas of possibilities. >Keep us posted on your progress Ron > > David Moore Turnkey1@MSComm.Com Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:07:57 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: nlf At 08:16 PM 12/3/97 EST, you wrote: >can anyone help? tried to get into http://www.newtech.com/nlf.html and could >not find, did i do something wrong or what? > >thanks for your help. i can also receieve voice e-mail at tandem2@aol.com > >tandem2 Try: http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:35:00 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: Re: nlf > can anyone help? tried to get into http://www.newtech.com/nlf.htm It's http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:22:54 -0500 (EST) From: jeroffey@tir.com (jeroffey) Subject: Re: KR: Peel ply and hot wired cores >Just finished putting the carbon fiber skin on the wind tunnel airfoil >for the NLF(1)0115 tests. After following several threads on other mail >lists I decided to peel ply the skins and have been very favorably impressed. > >THe procedure followed was: > >1. hot wired the cores as shown in http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html > >2. with the core nested in the lower shell applied a slurry micro epoxy >coat to the core to seal the foam. > >3. applied three layers of carbon fiber to the top surface of the core >wrapping the carbon fiber around the leading edge about 1". THese layers >were wet out with West Systems epoxy using a rubber squeege. > >4. applied a layer of peel ply, dacron dress lining material, and wet out >with epoxy same as was done for the carbon layers. > >5. placed the top shell back on the core and weighted down to prevent >warpage. > >6. the whole mess was left to cure. After cure the top shell was broken >off the peel ply and then the peel ply was pulled off of the surface. >The resulting core almost looked as if it had been vacuum bagged with the >exception of having the textured finish of the peel ply. > >7. the one inch of carbon fiber that was wrapped around the leading edge >was sanded to a taper in preparation for applying the carbon fiber to the >bottom surface. > >8. the process was repeated for the bottom with the exception of nesting >in teh top shell as it was destroyed in the above steps. After curing >the peel ply was removed and the resulting core was about as perfect as >you can get without using a mold. THe surfaces are ready, without any >extra work for the final micro coat. I will be using the fish line >technique for applying the micro and will detail that on the web page for >the NLF wind tunnel model. > >Needless to say, I was impressed with the procedure and will use it on my >full size KR flying surfaces. > >Steve >Hi Steve. Just a short update on the metal spars, I threaded the small stub today and will do the large one tomorrow. I have the tubing at work and will thread it when the stubs are done so I can use them as guages. You will have them by the end of next week. Johon Roffey jeroffey@tir.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 06:55:53 -0600 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions Mike, I've owned two different KR-1s and both had a positive pin lock mechanism on the retract. Didn't have any problems with either - just had to remember to lower the gear before landing :-). There have been some instances where guys have either slightly bent the pin(s) or otherwise slightly jammed the mechanism somehow while in the air or on a rough field takeoff and found themselves unable to lower the gear. You might want to engineer your pin system to guard against that potential problem. One guy I knew used to include a long handled screwdriver (for prying) in his tool kit, should his gear ever hang up. One of my KR-1s had a microswitch operating a light on the instrument panel (activation was springloaded to close the switch when the throttle was backed off) and that seemed to work well as a reminder. Ed J .At 05:20 AM 12/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >My KR-1 is retractable. It doesn't have the original RR system on it >though. This system is a positive pin locked type that looks as though it >should be pretty sturdy. I'm hoping so anyway. I hope to have it flyin' in >the spring, so I guess I'll know more then. Is anyone else on the list >using this modified retract system & how does it work for you? I know there >were a lot of problems with the original RR retract design. > > >Blue Skies, > >Mike >redbaronflyrs@centuryinter.net > >---------- >> From: rdewees@juno.com >> To: krnet-l@teleport.com >> Subject: Re: KR: Cockpit width/KR questions >> Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 9:00 PM >> >> >> On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:52:26 -0800 Micheal Mims >> writes: >> >At 01:19 PM 12/2/97 EST, you wrote: >> > >> >>>I surmized the same thing but never saw it written down anywhere. It >> >>struck me as odd that the retract was standard and the option was >> >fixed >> >>gear. With the little plan's speed it would appear that retracts >> >would be >> >>beneficial if thwy were practical and safe. >> > >> >The retracts are not an option (or standard equipment)any longer as RR >> >doesnt stock the parts to build it, I don't know why they are still in >> >the >> >plans? It would be nice to trade the 10 or 15 pages of useless >> >retract >> >information that is in the plans an explain how to do other things, >> >like >> >size an instrument panel! >> > >> >Thanks for the info.. Are there any pilots still flying the retracts now >> or are they essentially "recalled" because of problems? I don't know >> which plans I will be getting when the folks I got the projects get >> around to sending them. Do more recent plans or the newsletters tell how >> to convert to fixed conventional or tri gear? >> Thanks ron > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:07:21 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Pulsar XP = all composite KR2S A friend of mine just bought a quick build Pulsar XP kit from Stystar. Saw it last night. It is essentially an all composite KR-2S (a little longer) Fuselage and wings are complete. The fuselage just needs BID tape on the Foggles . The Composite spars slide through the cockpit and are attached with just a couple of pins, making them removeable in about 5 mins. I was wondering if anyone has investigated making composite spars for the KR? and running them throught for quick removal Unfortunately I dont know how much of a quick build it is going to be. The plans are missing hundreds of pages and Skystar is telling him not to touch anything yet. Richard Parker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:11:11 -0600 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR: Re: nlf I admit that I haven't been following this wind tunnel thing too closely, but is there a chance in getting to see this operation? I'm pretty close to the U of I campus. Anyone know? Ed Janssen At 08:35 PM 12/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >> can anyone help? tried to get into http://www.newtech.com/nlf.htm > >It's http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >email at langford@hiwaay.net >KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford > >- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:12:01 EST From: JEHayward Subject: Re: KR: Headset kit In a message dated 97-12-03 14:14:58 EST, you write: << Spent many nites listening to crackling static and whiny SSB; learned code and what a BFO does! Hey- how about a 2 meter rig in your KR? Oscar Zuniga >> Hey Oscar... that's what I plan to do with my 2-S. 73's........ Jim Hayward KB0BUT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:28:25 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Re: nlf On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Ed Janssen wrote: > I admit that I haven't been following this wind tunnel thing too closely, > but is there a chance in getting to see this operation? I'm pretty close to > the U of I campus. Anyone know? > > Ed Janssen Ed, I looks like we are five or six weeks from getting the wind tunnel time for the evaluations. There shouldn't be any problem in monitoring some of the tests. As I understand it the tests will be run over about a weeks time. I plan on being there for part of the tests. Where are you located? I pass through Urbana atleast two or three times a month. Steve > > At 08:35 PM 12/3/97 -0600, you wrote: > >> can anyone help? tried to get into http://www.newtech.com/nlf.htm > > > >It's http://www.newtech.com/nlf/nlf.html > > > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > >email at langford@hiwaay.net > >KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >- > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:50:52 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil Just applied the dry micro to the trailing edge joggle and discovered I should have put the joggle on the top convex surface rather than the bottom concave surface. It would have been easier to sand the dry micro to final profile on a convex surface rather than the concave surface. Oh well, live and learn. The Rutan method of forming trailing edges with the joggle makes TE construction simple if you don't complicate the issue by putting the joggle on the wrong surface. Will put pictures on the NLF web page later in the week to illustrate what I did and what I should have done. These ramblings about the construction of the wind tunnel model are to illustrate a building method that I find well suited to one off construction. Rutan developed these methods after Ken designed the KR and would probably have been included in later revisions of the KR if the design hadn't been frozen with his crash. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:17:14 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: KR: Engine Choices Micheal Mims wrote: > > ...I was once introduced to another builder by Janetter as > "A person who is building a KR with all sorts of major mods" and that was > before I decided to use the Lyc or the 23016! In all likelihood I will not > be using the Lycoming as it is just too big (size wise, there is no such > thing as too much HP!) :o) > > I am looking at a DD Turbo Subaru EA-81 (for the second time) right now but > as anyone who has been on this list will tell you, I have changed my mind on > what engine to use more times than Clinton made fund raising phone calls > from the White House. :o) > > I have a VW type 1, and a Lycoming at the hanger and they will be joined > next week by a EA-81 Subaru. Then I guess its time to pick an engine,..any > engine! Right now the VW is "dead" last on the list and Subaru first but > hey,..who knows?? Hey Mike, how does the O-235 compare to the O-290? I was in dream-on mode the other day, when I started thinking about picking up an out-of-annual or windstorm thrashed Traumahawk. If you got it for the right price and could salvage the engine, fuel system, avionics(likely too big and heavy, but maybe good trade fodder for newer) and instruments, then sell the carcass to a scrap yard... Dreamin' again, Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:47:03 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Locating other builders >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:43:46 -0800 >To: krnet-l@teleport.com >From: David Moore >Subject: Re: KR: KR questions >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >Ron, >Click on Mike's Web page and click on the map, now where are you?, click on >your state and it will show you the people who are in your state who are >building KR's. Not only KR2 but 2s and 1's. >Hope this helps you with your search. > >Dave Moore > Yep- that's how I found Paul Martin and his KR-2 project, before I even knew about KRNet. That little map thingie is pretty cool... Thanks, Mike Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:55:11 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Engine Choices At 10:17 AM 12/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Mike, how does the O-235 compare to the O-290? I was in dream-on mode............. Well the KR2S is supposed to have the O-235 listed as an option and I like your idea. Unfortunately I don't have a 235 handy for comparison! :o) All the text I have read has said that the O-290 and O-234 share the same case with the 290 having larger jugs and longer stroke but I don't think that's right. I have a 290 sitting right next to a 320 and they are VERY close to (almost exactly) the same size! If I had the 235 as an option I think I would do it over any other engine. Its a good one but not cheep! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:00:39 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Locating other builders At 07:47 AM 12/4/97 PST, you wrote: >Yep- that's how I found Paul Martin and his KR-2 project, before I even >knew about KRNet. That little map thingie is pretty cool... Thanks, >Mike > >Oscar Zuniga >Medford, Oregon Yea it is pretty cool and I wish I could take credit for its design but It was done by a KRnetter about a year ago (maybe more) by the name of Carlos Sa. He passed it on when he signed off the KRnet because it proved a useful tool in locating builders and flyers. I really need to update it so if your a builder and or flyer see if your on the map, if not and you want to be send me the info. The map is located at: http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims/krmap.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 09:17:23 -0800 From: hjfine@wave.net Subject: Re: KR: Tiedown rings At 11:09 PM 12/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >Oscar wrote: I looked at the tiedowns on Paul Martin's KR-2, and >> they are made from flat strap aligned with the airstream. While >>simple, light, and certainly almost zero-drag, I wouldn't use them >>without a metal link between them and the tiedown rope, because >they >would seem to be sharp enough to slice the rope > >I plan to use small, spring loaded, aluminum carabiners (like rock >climbers use) with the rope already tied on them. I can just "clip" onto >the wing and tie the loose end to the ground. Simple, small, light, & >strong. > >I'll let you know how it works even sooner if I can trick Oscar and Hank >into "practice building" in MY garage. > >Paul (skiing my driveway) Martin >Ashland, OR > >Paul: I'd like to drop by today about 4:30 or 5;00 to check out the work Oscar and I will be expected to accomplish! Hank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:35:58 -0500 From: t48715@twobit.dehavilland.ca (Kevin Oickle) Subject: Re: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil Steven A Eberhart wrote: "...should have put the joggle on the top convex surface rather than the bottom concave surface..." My only concern with doing this is the sensitivity of the airfoil to a "step" in the airfoil contour (read as an imperfection in the 2D airfoil shape). I know that for the wind tunnel model you're building you're going to micro over, and ensure that there is no "step", but when people build it in the garage they probably won't go to the extremes that you have to ensure that there is no step. The problem is that the upper surface is a lot more sensitve to any surface imperfections than the lower surface, especially for a NLF airfoil. I suggest, and Selig probably has already planned to do this, that you investigate this by placing a step imperfection at various locations from the leading edge. We do a very similar thing in our wind tunnel testing. Anyway, just a thought. BTW, our postal strike is just ending, so I should be able to get you a check to help your initiative out. PLEASE keep us informed, as I personnally am very curious about all of the itty-bitty details. Thanks again Steven... Kevin - --- Kevin B. Oickle Phone: (416) 375-7634 (W) de Havilland Inc. - DASH 8-400 FAX: (416) 373-7361 (W) Stability & Control Group e-mail: koickle@dehavilland.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:41:35 -0500 (EST) From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil NLFHeads: Has anyone discussed with Video Bob about the wind tunnel tests? Got your ears up Bob? A short clip of the tunnel testing and an overview of the whole process may make for an interesting Friday evening program item at KRKosh 98! Anyone have any thoughts (or flames) to add? Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA PS - Steve, the check is in the mail (oh sure) - I was a bad boy and forgot to send it sooner. The thought of the upcoming Turkey day overpowered me and I lost focus... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:09:28 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Kevin Oickle wrote: > Steven A Eberhart wrote: > "...should have put the joggle on the top convex surface rather than the > bottom concave surface..." > > > My only concern with doing this is the sensitivity of the airfoil to > a "step" in the airfoil contour (read as an imperfection in the 2D > airfoil shape). I know that for the wind tunnel model you're building > you're going to micro over, and ensure that there is no "step", but > when people build it in the garage they probably won't go to the > extremes that you have to ensure that there is no step. > This is why I put the joggle on the bottom surface in the first place. I am not so sure that minor imperfections that far back on the airfoil are going to hurt that much. We will only have laminar flow back to about 50% or 60% of the chord anyway. You are right about builders having to finish the joggle properly. > The problem is that the upper surface is a lot more sensitve to any > surface imperfections than the lower surface, especially for a NLF > airfoil. I suggest, and Selig probably has already planned to do this, > that you investigate this by placing a step imperfection at various > locations from the leading edge. We do a very similar thing in our > wind tunnel testing. I know he will be testing for sensitivity to rain and bug guts on the leading edge with various textured tapes. There is a 20% chord aileron on the wing section. I am using the standard piano hinge method of attaching the aileron and will be sealing the hinge gap. THis will have a disruption of the top surface but is what all flying airfoils will have. I am trying to keep the contour as close as possible across the hinge. The reason for the aileron is Selig wants to verify the control forces and to get an idea of flap characteristics. > > Anyway, just a thought. BTW, our postal strike is just ending, so > I should be able to get you a check to help your initiative out. > PLEASE keep us informed, as I personnally am very curious about > all of the itty-bitty details. All help is greatly appreciated. Hope to get the web page updated this weekend with more construction details. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:18:41 -0500 From: t48715@twobit.dehavilland.ca (Kevin Oickle) Subject: Re: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil >I know he will be testing for sensitivity to rain and bug guts on the leading edge...> We've gotta get those "bug guts" tests on the Video !!! :) - --- Kevin B. Oickle Phone: (416) 375-7634 (W) de Havilland Inc. - DASH 8-400 FAX: (416) 373-7361 (W) Stability & Control Group e-mail: koickle@dehavilland.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:21:19 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: NLF wind tunnel airfoil On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 BSHADR@aol.com wrote: > > NLFHeads: > > Has anyone discussed with Video Bob about the wind tunnel tests? Got your > ears up Bob? A short clip of the tunnel testing and an overview of the whole > process may make for an interesting Friday evening program item at KRKosh 98! > > Anyone have any thoughts (or flames) to add? > I don't know if Dr. Selig would be interrested but it might be nice if he would be able to give a talk at KRKosh 98 about the new airfoil. We should be able to get enough contributors to cover his expenses. Would make for some interresting discussions about KR aerodynamics with a person of Dr. Selig's stature present. Steve > Randy Stein > BSHADR@aol.com > Soviet Monica, CA > > PS - Steve, the check is in the mail (oh sure) - I was a bad boy and forgot > to send it sooner. The thought of the upcoming Turkey day overpowered me and > I lost focus... > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #183 *****************************