From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 2:24 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #196 krnet-l-digest Friday, December 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 196 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:53:45, -0500 From: YCGB97A@prodigy.com (MR JEAN R VERON) Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity If you are going to reduce the travel of the elevator i would reconsider. You will need the full designed travel in certain loading and flight conditions. When low and slow with a forward CG is not the time to discover you need more elevator. Although a bit sensative many a low time pilot has taught himself to fly one. I personally needed about 4 hrs. to transition. Luckily i live in the KR-2 capitol and hangar with Marty Roberts. Consider if you flew a C-150 that operated about gross and used all of the CG range during a flight during a flight you would probibly have different feelings about it too. Rick Junkin said that they fly just like a F-4 Phantom. So just strap one on and you too can pretend you are chasing a viet cong in a Mig. Jean N4DD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:43:43 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: surplus run This will be the second time my brother and I have gone. I was thinking of aluminum u-channel and L-stock and maybe some honeycombe sheets. A few more long drill bits is also on the hit list John F. Esch Salem, OR MARVIN MCCOY wrote: > John F. Esch wrote: > > > > I probably will doing a Boeing Surplus Store (Seattle, WA) run in > > January and was wondering if you guys can give me some ideas of what > I > > should be looking for. I will be starting on my -2S here soon, so > any > > ideas of tools that I could probably use for building would help. > > > > John F. Esch > > Salem, OR-------------------- > > John: > The Boeing surplus store is different all the time. Some > times > you find good stuff at bargain prices. But you need to be careful. > They price a lot of things by the pound. And some things when weighed > > are just to expensive. Everytime I go there I find something to buy. > Lately they have had some good safety wire twisters for only > $10.00. I have got large C-clamps for $1.00 an inch. But you never > know what they have until you get there. There is always lots of > aluminum, titanium, etc. > Good luck and have fun. > > Marvin McCoy > Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field > Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net > ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:38:29 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR micheal, i only say that as someone couldn't understand that you are only inproving your kr, as many of us want to do the same thing, even if it goes so far as to change the whole plane. hopefuly we will all have a better kr if thas what you want to call it. well i will go back to sleep and wait for the new wings to get tested. tandem2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:43:51 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos you can't hunt me down, i am sleeping, so is area 51 some big secret and if it is why do you talk about it so much, just a ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:04:46 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 david, thanks. robert, how funky our we talking about? tandem2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:46:02 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos ok,ok, sorry i asked. did not know it was so secret ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:19:18 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 >david, thanks. >robert, how funky our we talking about? > >tandem2 I am not sure, as I didn't see it in person, but I think it is a retractable tri-gear with a composite body, or at least composite sides. Maybe a different than standard engine as might be used commonly for the type. The plane was stolen from the aliens, who used it originally to escape the real hangar 51. They didn't like the food, or Randy's jokes. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:21:47 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Transcontinental KR/was Urethane foam In a message dated 97-12-18 18:27:41 EST, you write: >Subj: KR: Transcontinental KR/was Urethane foam >Date: 97-12-18 18:27:41 EST >From: taildrags@hotmail.com (Oscar Zuniga) >Sender: owner-krnet-l@teleport.com >Reply-to: krnet-l@teleport.com >To: krnet-l@teleport.com > > >Micheal wrote to Mike T: >>> >> >>Yep at least two! I fly over and help you! :o) >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Micheal Mims >>Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship >> >Hey, Micheal- > >You realize that Mike T. is in the Big Apple? > >Keep in the back of your mind a record attempt for KRs- L.A. to N.Y.C.- >you could put in an aux. tank and a relief tube, throw in some Twinkies >and orange juice, and make like Rutan! > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:21:39 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Transcontinental KR >>You realize that Mike T. is in the Big Apple? >> >>Keep in the back of your mind a record attempt for KRs- L.A. to N.Y.C.- >>you could put in an aux. tank and a relief tube, throw in some Twinkies >>and orange juice, and make like Rutan! >Trust me I know where Mike lives! :o) Hey I could plan it just right to >catch the jetstream with my turbo fired fuel injected inverted V, >BMW/Hispano flapper snark! The record books would require editing for sure! > >PS Yes thats the powerplant of the week! You could land it right on 14th Street in Greenwich Village -- just time it so the light's red, and bring lots of bail money. A guy landed a Cessna 140 on a deserted downtown Manhattan street once as a bet. They didn't catch him until he tried to do it the second time. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:27:28 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: video Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 07:13 PM 12/17/97 EST, you wrote: > >Well there pard'ner, Video Bob has lots of footage. I'm not sure how good > it is, but I suspect we'll see construction video(s) in the near future > dedicated to particular subjects.>>>> > > If the audio on the composite portion is poor I would be willing to dub in > (record a voice over on what we did) to make it work. Bob?? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims Can you do Jimmy Stewart? We could call it "It's a wonderful life." -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:31:05 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Re: HELP! reaction to epoxy?? MikeT nyc wrote: > > >1) use a respirator (or forced-air, if you can afford it.) I believe > >there's a system called "HobbyAir" that came out last year. Supposed > >to be inexpensive and decent, but I can't afford a garage, let alone > >a project right now, so I can't tell you from personal experience. > > > >2) Make sure the mask fits! (a bigger problem than you might think) If > >you take the mask off after a long period of wear and you don't have a > >continuous red "ring" where the mask was... get a smaller size. > > I have no idea what a proper respirator costs, but today I was in an NYC store > that sells a lot of NATO surplus, etc., when I saw a bunch of new surplus gas > masks for about $20. Are these equivalent to respirators and are the > cannisters (which unscrew) available.commercially? > > Mike Taglieri I don't know. I think I'd run down to Sears and buy a Craftsman resperator. The cannisters are removable, and I don't think you end up paying too much more than the $20 .. well maybe $30-40. But I've had my Craftsman mask for about 10 years now, and I've been through three cannisters. The elastic is finally starting to show some age. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:32:48 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Re:~ vs - (Bla bla bla) Austin Clark wrote: > > Not much done on the KR the past two weeks. My Aircraft Manufacturing > Facility has become Santa's Workshop. I finally managed to put up a web > page though with some pictures of my project along with a few 'builders > tips' that might help some just getting started. Rich Parker, KRnetter from > New Hampshire, dropped by a couple weeks ago. (Really enjoyed the visit > Rich and can you believe 8" of snow a few miles north of here? It's not > supposed to do that this far south!) Anyway, my web page is at > > http://www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > You guys have a Merry Christmas and keep the holidays safe while I try to > figure out how to cure epoxy in this kind of weather! > > Oh, and the ~ is not a - it's a ~ > ~ = Tilde (WEBHEAD) = en-ya (my wife... spanish interpertation) - = dash = hyphen -Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:35:46 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: surplus run John F. Esch wrote: > > I probably will doing a Boeing Surplus Store (Seattle, WA) run in > January and was wondering if you guys can give me some ideas of what I > should be looking for. I will be starting on my -2S here soon, so any > ideas of tools that I could probably use for building would help. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR Look for safety glasses $1.00 each. Wire strippers. I got a nice set for about $10 or less, look carefully, they have a LARGE bin, and some of the strippers are trashed. These are the really nice $100 variety which peel and strip and do everything but build the airplane in one squeeze. Look for files (with no handles) at $1.00 or so a POUND! Look for work gloves at $1.00 a pair. Look for clecos... by the pound? OK, we are not building RV's but what the heck. The have large aluminum sheets too, but you have to buy a truckload. They also had a lot of office furniture, and some 220VAC wiring boxes from the factory floor, but the prices on that stuff wasn't too hot. Lots and lots of JUNK and stuff that makes you wonder where in a 777 it came from. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:51:25 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 Actually, I suspect that there is an even more secret base in Oregon. Everyone knows about Area 51 so how secret is that? I belive area 52 is actually in Oregon some place, and it is difficult to find because of all the rain and fog. But with the super stealthy aircraft that are invisible and silent this doesn't make much difference. - -- Regards Ross David Moore wrote: > > At 12:09 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: > >what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is > and > >i will go back to sleep. > > > >tandem2 > > Area 51 is the top secret military base outside Las Vegas, north of Nellis > Air Force Base, where it is said alien space craft are tested. > It is also the Top Secret testing grounds for military aircraft, like the > F-117, F22. > > David Moore > Turnkey1@MSComm.Com > Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:53:50 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 (fwd) Steve, I mailed my check for $110. That should take you to $770. Say when we are all done, lets get an article into Sport Aviation! - -- Regards Ross Steven A Eberhart wrote: > > I meant to include the names of the contributors in the last post. > > So far I have received checks from the following visionaries: > > Randy Stein > Troy Johnson > Rex Ellington > Oscar Zuniga > Mark Langford > Ronald Lee > John Esch > Robert Cornelius > Robert Moreland > Richard Mole > > I haven't deposited the checks yet will probably do so this week. > > Thanks guys, we should all be proud of our contribution to sport aviation. > > Steve Eberhart > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:34:11 -0600 (CST) > From: Steven A Eberhart > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 > > I have received checks totaling $660.00 we still need to get to $1,000 > before we go into the wind tunnel. Looks like early January will be when > we get the wind tunnel time. Ashok needs to complete the design of the > new airfoil specifically tailored to the Reynolds numbers our wings will > be working in and I need to make the wind tunnel model for it before we go > into the tunnel. Looks like a buisy next few weeks but the results should > be more than worth it. > > The NLF(1)0115 wind tunnel model should be complete next week, the spars > should arrive tomorrow or Thursday and the wing section is ready to have > the spars bonded in. > > This is really starting to be fun - we should all be proud of the > contributions we are making to Sport Aviation. Sure wish I had a plane > ready for one of the new wings!! > > Steve Eberhart > newtech@newtech.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:55:52 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: surplus run John, Plenty of DRILL Bits... I forgot about that section of the store. -- Ross John F. Esch wrote: > > This will be the second time my brother and I have gone. I was thinking > of aluminum u-channel and L-stock and maybe some honeycombe sheets. A > few more long drill bits is also on the hit list > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR > > MARVIN MCCOY wrote: > > > John F. Esch wrote: > > > > > > I probably will doing a Boeing Surplus Store (Seattle, WA) run in > > > January and was wondering if you guys can give me some ideas of what > > I > > > should be looking for. I will be starting on my -2S here soon, so > > any > > > ideas of tools that I could probably use for building would help. > > > > > > John F. Esch > > > Salem, OR-------------------- > > > > John: > > The Boeing surplus store is different all the time. Some > > times > > you find good stuff at bargain prices. But you need to be careful. > > They price a lot of things by the pound. And some things when weighed > > > > are just to expensive. Everytime I go there I find something to buy. > > Lately they have had some good safety wire twisters for only > > $10.00. I have got large C-clamps for $1.00 an inch. But you never > > know what they have until you get there. There is always lots of > > aluminum, titanium, etc. > > Good luck and have fun. > > > > Marvin McCoy > > Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field > > Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net > > ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:07:16 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 Hope we didn't make too much noise at the airport last night Ross. Those black helicopters (that what they look like at night) tend to bug people when they keep going in circles. Just getting flight time at night. John F. Esch Salem, OR Ross Youngblood wrote: > Actually, I suspect that there is an even more secret base in Oregon. > > Everyone knows about Area 51 so how secret is that? > > I belive area 52 is actually in Oregon some place, and it is difficult > > to find because of all the rain and fog. But with the super stealthy > aircraft that are invisible and silent this doesn't make much > difference. > > -- Regards > Ross > > David Moore wrote: > > > > At 12:09 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: > > >what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me > what it is > > and > > >i will go back to sleep. > > > > > >tandem2 > > > > Area 51 is the top secret military base outside Las Vegas, north of > Nellis > > Air Force Base, where it is said alien space craft are tested. > > It is also the Top Secret testing grounds for military aircraft, > like the > > F-117, F22. > > > > David Moore > > Turnkey1@MSComm.Com > > Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:12:26 +0900 From: mouse@heiwa.com Subject: Re: KR: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 (fwd) Steve, I mailed a check today for the amount of $100. May take a week or so getting there from here, but its on its way. Your welcome, Tim Schuy KR-2S builder in Japan KR>Steven A Eberhart wrote: KR>> KR>> I meant to include the names of the contributors in the last post. KR>> KR>> So far I have received checks from the following visionaries: KR>> KR>> Randy Stein KR>> Troy Johnson KR>> Rex Ellington KR>> Oscar Zuniga KR>> Mark Langford KR>> Ronald Lee KR>> John Esch KR>> Robert Cornelius KR>> Robert Moreland KR>> Richard Mole KR>> KR>> I haven't deposited the checks yet will probably do so this week. KR>> KR>> Thanks guys, we should all be proud of our contribution to sport aviation. KR>> KR>> Steve Eberhart KR>> KR>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- KR>> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:34:11 -0600 (CST) KR>> From: Steven A Eberhart KR>> To: krnet-l@teleport.com KR>> Subject: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 KR>> KR>> I have received checks totaling $660.00 we still need to get to $1,000 KR>> before we go into the wind tunnel. Looks like early January will be when KR>> we get the wind tunnel time. Ashok needs to complete the design of the KR>> new airfoil specifically tailored to the Reynolds numbers our wings will KR>> be working in and I need to make the wind tunnel model for it before we go KR>> into the tunnel. Looks like a buisy next few weeks but the results should KR>> be more than worth it. KR>> KR>> The NLF(1)0115 wind tunnel model should be complete next week, the spars KR>> should arrive tomorrow or Thursday and the wing section is ready to have KR>> the spars bonded in. KR>> KR>> This is really starting to be fun - we should all be proud of the KR>> contributions we are making to Sport Aviation. Sure wish I had a plane KR>> ready for one of the new wings!! KR>> KR>> Steve Eberhart KR>> newtech@newtech.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:53:04 -0800 From: Tom Crawford Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity brian whatcott wrote: > > At 16:46 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > I have read about the super pitch sensitive stick in the KR series of > >planes and I talked with a RANS S-6 builder/pilot... about the same > problem on the S-6. I had a > >simple fix for this I thought but it is so simple I'm sure that it wouldn't > >work.... My fix goes like this.. if you reduced the distance from the > >pivot point of the control stick to the connection to the elevator push-pull > >tube then you would in effect give the stick greater tolerance to pitch > >inputs (i.e. fore/aft movement) > ... > >Jeremy Casey jrcasey@mindspring.com > > When faced with a 'sensitive stick' in pitch, some folks guess > the solution is to increase the stick displacement per elevator > deflection, and other folks think the way to go is to increase > the stick force per elevator deflection. > Of the two options, the latter is likely to be more successful > but it must be agreed that they are both bandaids on the basic > problem that, when you push the tail down, it wants to keep going, > or put another way, it doesn't want to return to its previous > position strongly enough. That behavior is described by two > measurements called static and dynamic pitch stability. > One easy way of getting bad behavior like this is to place the > CG too far aft. The corresponding solution is easy to see as well. > > If it is just a 'control feel' issue, something like a strong > centering spring would improve matters, but its the safety issue > that's more worrying: if a gust permits the aircraft to adopt a > new pitch attitude, then that's a 'nervy' machine. > Another cause of 'nervousness' is the effect of pulling G on the > stick force - you would like the stick force to increase as > G force increases - so that a sneeze didn't take you to the edge > of the envelope. > > Well, I could drone on some more - but I won't > > Regards > brian whatcott > Altus OK My test program continues. It seems I fly 30 or 40 min. then tear the plane apart, change some thing, and it is 2 weeks before I am able to fly again. Ah well. I now have a total of 5 flight hours on N262TC, and yes, it is once again torn apart and I am waiting on parts. During my flight yesterday, the oil temp sending unit bit the dust. Also need to send the prop out for some adjustment. Looks like I am down thru the holidays. The wife will like that. The above note made me think- if I was to do it all over again- the first thing I would do is to balance the elevator. In my opinion, this is probably all that needs to be done on the "pitch sensitivity issue." Tom Crawford tomc@afn.org Gainesville, FL N262TC- FLYS! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:33:06 From: "Troy Johnson" Subject: KR: Phoenix bound gang Okay guys, Heard from Don Ball last night, he made it into town okay and is anxious to hook up with some KR Netters/builders. I am going to see if I need to reserve any space at the Deer Valley airport restaraunt for either the evening of the 27th (I have to work during the day) or the afternoon of the 28th. If anyone has any objections let me know. If you want to get a hold of Don he is at 602-872-7264 and if you want to contact me I am at 602-416-2158.....Troy ************************************************************* If at first you don't succeed.....so much for skydiving! Troy A. Johnson WYLE Electronics 1955 E. Sky Harbor Circle North Phoenix, AZ 85034 (602)-495-9953 (602)-416-2158 (direct) ************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:51:46 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Respirators >I have no idea what a proper respirator costs, but today I was in an NYC store >that sells a lot of NATO surplus, etc., when I saw a bunch of new surplus gas >masks for about $20. Are these equivalent to respirators and are the >cannisters (which unscrew) available.commercially? > >Mike Taglieri > Mike; I am on the safety committee here at my company, and so we get into this somewhat. I would say about the surplus unit, if it is comfy after a couple of hours, go for it. Otherwise, get a new commercial item. (How you gonna try it out? Dunno! Ask the guy if you can wear it a couple hours and bring it back if you don't like it. Then get ready for the funny looks from people while you go about your routine in an Israeli Commando scud-buster mask). Some have mentioned their Sears Craftsman units; I have a 3M unit that I use when running the weed trimmer (I like the smell of 2-stroke, but not the dust and pollen), we have various others here at work... any safety supply can show you their line of "good-better-best" which will run you roughly $25-$50-$80 respectively. All have replaceable canisters, which are available for specific fumes or irritants to be filtered, and way preferable to the "one canister does it all" genericos. All are available in small-med-large; get a good fit. Yeah, it's gotta leave a red ring after about 30-45 min., and it won't be fun to wear, but consider the alternative. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:48:07 -0500 From: "Bob Vermeulen" Subject: KR: Seminar videos Yes gang, there is a seminar tape in the workings. It will cover the composite, woodworking, antenna, and finishing seminars. It will require considerable editing because I need to fit it on a 2 hour videotape. BTW, the seminar audio you heard on the Gathering video was only from the on camera mic. The audio on the Seminar video will be much better, as each seminar leader was wearing a good wireless mic. The bases were all covered, it's just that it is taking so long to complete. Sorry about the delay. Video Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:57:21 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Felix props Netters; Just to make Randy and the others happy, I have been reading some more. This time, it's the Felix Prop as featured in last month's Sport Aviation. Anybody have any experience with this carved wood prop with the double-airfoil x-section? It's supposed to be marginally more efficient than standard airfoil section, but much quieter. They were developed, I think, for airboats. The fellow runs an ad in the back of SA, and I will probably send for more info unless anybody has heard bad of this prop. I have always thought I'd like my plane to have quiet mods of any type I can, since my ears have heard too many .357s and such over the years, and my hearing is going south. Thanks Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:40:50 -0800 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity brian whatcott wrote: > > I have read about the super pitch sensitive stick in the KR series of > >planes and I talked with a RANS S-6 builder/pilot... > >My fix goes like this.. if you reduced the distance from the > >pivot point of the control stick to the connection to the elevator push-pull > >tube then you would in effect give the stick greater tolerance to pitch > >inputs (i.e. fore/aft movement) > ... > >Jeremy Casey jrcasey@mindspring.com > > When faced with a 'sensitive stick' in pitch, some folks guess > the solution is to increase the stick displacement per elevator > deflection, and other folks think the way to go is to increase > the stick force per elevator deflection.snip > brian whatcott Here is my contrabution to the effort. You are looking at a combination of static stability, dynamic stability, and control forces. The static stability is a function the distance between the CG and the neutral stability point. If the CG is at the neutral point, the a/c will respond in pitch just like it does in roll. You would establish a pitch force, let the a/c change to the desired attitude, remove the pitch force, and the a/c will remain at that attitude. You could fly this way, but it would not be any fun. In a KR-2, the neutral stability point is at approximately 35% of the mean aerodynamic chord, which is the published aft cg limit. The fix for this is to us a real-world cg range that maintains some static margin. 30% is a good aft limit. The dynamic stability is how quickly the a/c returns to the trimmed condition following a distubance. This is a function of the a/c design. Once you have built your plane, this is difficult to change. The usual way of comparing the a/c is with something called the volume coefficient. It is a non-dimensional number that is given by VHT = (area of horiz tail X distance from CG to the aero center of the tail) divided by (wing area X the length of the mean aerodynamic chord) The standard range for light aircraft is about 0.3 to 0.6. The higher the number, the more dynamically stable the a/c will be. If you can find it, read a series of articles in Sport Aviation, beginning in Feb 1990, by John Roncz. Several places have this on the web, but you have to go and search for it. The control forces can be fine-tuned during the testing process by changing the lever arms (mounting points). This is largely a matter of personnal preference. Just remember, as the stick movement gets smaller for a given elevator movement, the amount of force you need to apply through your hand/arm will get higher. Full range of motion must be possible, both hand and elevator. Any changes during the tesing period should be small and adequately tested before flight. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:02:21 -0800 From: Alessandro Pecorara Subject: Re: KR: Limbach Robert.Johnson1@ipaper.com wrote: > > Dose anybody out ther know where to get parts and information for this engine. > Address phone number email etc. I have inherited a kr2 with one of these engine > in it. It is a 2000 cc mount with 80 hp at 3500. LIMBACH should have at least a service station in your Country, but I don't know it. If may help, their european adrress is: LIMBACH Flugmotoren - Kotthausener Strasse 5, D-53639 Konigswinter - Germany phone: (0 22 44) 92 01 0 fax: (0 22 44) 92 01 30 I don't know of Email or www sites. Merry Chistmas to all the Netters! Alessandro Pecorara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:18:50 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity At 09:40 PM 12/19/97 -0800, you wrote: >The dynamic stability is how quickly the a/c returns to the trimmed >condition following a distubance. This is a function of the a/c design. >The standard range for light aircraft is about 0.3 to 0.6. The higher the >number, the more dynamically stable the a/c will be. FYI just incase anyone is interested when you run the numbers on a KR2 , KR2S and some other aircraft, here is how they stand (well close anyway and I think you will get the point) KR2 = 0.27 F-86 Fighter Jet = .28 KR2S = .31 RV6A = .38 My Project = .39 A-36 Bonanza = .42 Piper Seminole = .43 (light twin) C-172 = .56 (YUK!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:12:26 -0500 From: smithr Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity Tom Crawford wrote: > The above note made me think- if I was to do it all over again- the > first thing I would do is to balance the elevator. In my opinion, this is probably all that needs to be done on the "pitch sensitivity issue." > > Tom Crawford > tomc@afn.org > Gainesville, FL > N262TC- FLYS! I'm not sure that balancing the elevator would help. I suppose it would be a force to return it to neutral. But isn't the relative wind already a strong force to do this? The plane would still be quick to respond to any stick input. Bob Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:06:54 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity At 13:12 12/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >Tom Crawford wrote: > >> The above note made me think- if I was to do it all over again- the >> first thing I would do is to balance the elevator. In my opinion, this is probably all that needs to be done on the "pitch sensitivity >issue." >> >> Tom Crawford >> tomc@afn.org >> Gainesville, FL >> N262TC- FLYS! > >I'm not sure that balancing the elevator would help. I suppose it >would be a force to return it to neutral. But isn't the relative wind >already a strong force to do this? The plane would still be quick to >respond to any stick input. > >Bob Smith > > Balancing control surfaces is a great, cheap insurance against flutter, which can destroy a wing in seconds and spoil your whole day. Ailerons are a must. Elevator is good too... between 2/3 and 110% mass balance is the desired band. It helps dynamic stabilty too in the gust case... (Another DS fix is an UP trailedge elevator tab, balanced by a down t.e. spring. The spring has constant force, but the tab pushes harder the faster you go = pull back on the stick = stabilizing...) brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:17:21 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity brian whatcott wrote: > > At 13:12 12/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Tom Crawford wrote: > > > >> The above note made me think- if I was to do it all over again- the > >> first thing I would do is to balance the elevator. In my opinion, this > is probably all that needs to be done on the "pitch sensitivity > >issue." > >> > > > >I'm not sure that balancing the elevator would help. I suppose it > >would be a force to return it to neutral. But isn't the relative wind > >already a strong force to do this? The plane would still be quick to > >respond to any stick input. > > > Balancing control surfaces is a great, cheap insurance against flutter, > which can destroy a wing in seconds and spoil your whole day. > Ailerons are a must. Elevator is good too... between 2/3 and 110% > mass balance is the desired band. > It helps dynamic stabilty too in the gust case... Brian, I believe that they're speaking of aerodynamic balancing, not mass balancing. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:26:31 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity At 02:17 PM 12/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >Brian, I believe that they're speaking of aerodynamic balancing, not >mass balancing. > >Patrick >-- Gosh I hope not, wouldn't that make things a little worse? :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:54:52 -0600 From: Jim Faughn Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity Micheal Mims wrote: > At 09:40 PM 12/19/97 -0800, you wrote: > >The dynamic stability is how quickly the a/c returns to the trimmed > >condition following a distubance. This is a function of the a/c design. > > >The standard range for light aircraft is about 0.3 to 0.6. The higher the > >number, the more dynamically stable the a/c will be. > > FYI just incase anyone is interested when you run the numbers on a KR2 , > KR2S and some other aircraft, here is how they stand (well close anyway and > I think you will get the point) > > KR2 = 0.27 > F-86 Fighter Jet = .28 > KR2S = .31 > RV6A = .38 > My Project = .39 > A-36 Bonanza = .42 > Piper Seminole = .43 (light twin) > C-172 = .56 (YUK!) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Happy Holidays to all!!! > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims According to an F-18 pilot I took up in my KR, the KR was more sensitive than his plane. I don't know, for some reason he wouldn't return the ride so I could see for myself. I guess I'll have to work the reciprocal ride out next time ahead of time. Also, Steve Alderman told me that when he balanced his elevator it made the plane more sensitive. Have a great holiday. - -- Jim Faughn N8931JF St. Louis, MO (314) 652-7659 or (573) 465-8039 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:31:31 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: KR: NLF update Just received the precision machined 4130 steel spars from John Roffey for the wind tunnel wing. Wow John, if you are building your plane as nice and as strong as the shipping crate for the spars you are going to have one nice airplane. The work on the spars is beautiful machine work. THis keeps getting "much more funner" all the time. I am still amaized, we were able to get over $1000 committed in less than 24 hours and when we needed precision machined spars - one post to KRNet and john was working on them. Thanks all, Steve Eberhart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:51:36 -0500 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity/Antiservo Tab I've got an idea to use the trim tab as a mini antiservo tab as well. This system would essentially be the same as moving the trim tab simultaneously opposite to any elevator movement, and instantaneously moving the trim tab back again when neutralizing elev control. Using 1/16" pull-pull cables on the trim tab,(similar to the elevator horn), CROSS the cables THROUGH the elevator section, and mount the cable tubes slightly above and slightly below the rear stab spar ON THE STAB. I haven't figured out the appropriate height for these mounts yet, but I would like for the antiservo action to be about equal to the full range of the trim tab, so that when the elevator is pulled all the way back, the trim tab will be sticking up about equal to full up trim. Run these two 1/16" cables to either a trim lever or drum in the cockpit and voila! you have trim control integrated with antiservo action. If you think about the interactions with trim position, they work out well also. With the aft CG position, the trim tab is up. When pulling on the elevator in this position, the trim tab moves even more up, providing more force feedback. (Of course, some guys may want to actually feel less control force which is typical of an aft CG position. This is the problem we want to get away from though, so I'm assuming more force is better with the aft CG position since the plane is going to still be more sensitive in the aft CG position of 30%.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:18:55 -0600 (CST) From: flesner Subject: Re: KR: X-wind landings Fellow Netters, builders, and flyers, I am prompted to reply to the recent post concerning x-wind landings and the ability of tri-gear vs. conventional gear aircraft to handle the x-wind. This seems to be one of the more misunderstood portions of flight. I will offer my understanding on the subject and try to keep it as short as possible. (as you will see, the short part didn't happen !!) First of all, there are several factor to consider so let's take them one at a time to better understand them. Keep in mind that during a landing they are all in effect to some degree. The most critical factor is where the main gear is located in relation to the center of gravity (C.G.) of the aircraft. In a nose wheel aircraft the C.G. is located ahead of the main gear and in a tail- wheel aircraft the C.G. is located behind the mains. To understand what effect this has, take a bar and pivot it at it's center. This bar is the fuselage and the pivot is the main gear. We will have this bar in motion and then bring it to a stop. First time, place a weight ahead of the pivot point to simulate a nosegear configuration. Now rotate the bar on the pivot so it is 45 degrees off parallel from the direction of motion. Place the bar in motion. As the bar comes to a stop, the weight (C.G.) ahead of the pivot point will cause the bar to swing back parallel to the direction of travel. Repeat with the weight moved to the rear of the bar (tailwheel configuration). This time the tail will tend to swing around to the front until the bar is parallel with the direction of travel. In flight this direction of motion is our track over the ground and and the off-parallel alignment is our crab into the wind. The aircraft will react just as the bar does. This off-parallel angle also places a side load on the gear as the fuselage tries to align with the direction of travel. Our direction of travel at touchdown must be parallel with the runway and our fuselage must be parallel with our direction of travel. If they are not all parallel, you will either A. leave the runway B. with a nosewheel, place side loads on the gear as the fuselage comes back parallel to the direction of travel or: C. with a tailwheel, ground loop as the tail swaps ends with the nose. (remember our weighted bar ?) We can get our direction of travel parallel with the runway by crabing into the wind. This was the only maneuver the Ercoupe (sp?) had available without independent rudders so they gave it a nosewheel and built the gear to handle the side loads. It in fact lands in a crab condition. With an independent rudder we have a better maneuver available. This is the side slip. In a side slip, we move the wing down on the side the wind is blowing from and slid sideways into the wind the same amount the wind is blowing us across the ground sidways so they cancel each other out. The problem is when you lower the wing, the aircraft wants to turn in that direction. SO....we hold opposit rudder to keep the fuselage parallel to our direction of travel. Presto..... the direction of travel is parallel to the runway and the fuselage is parallel to the direction of travel. As long as you maintain this configuration, you should roll straight ahead. The ability of any aircraft to handle crosswinds depends on how far it can lower a wing to side slip and the ability of the rudder to hold a heading during this maneuver. At some point you run out of ability with one or the other or both. This is entirely dependent on aircraft design, control surface size, etc. Now to add to the confusion, the wind is acting on the aircraft unequally along the length of the fuselage. (Remember that in the air our pivot point is the center of lift, and on the ground it is the main gear) The effect(side pressure)is usually the greatest at the tail due to the greater distance from the pivot point. This effect causes the aircraft to weathervane or turn into the wind. In the air at flight speeds we can easily overcome the effect with opposit rudder. The effect at lower speeds is much harder to handle as we lose the effect of rudder and vert. stabilizer. At that point, we only have nose or tailwheel steering and/or individual braking action to counter. During an actual landing, these variables are in a constant state of change as our airspeed or groundspeed change. Only a good understanding of what forces are acting on the aircraft, the manuevers required to counteract them, and plenty of practice will keep you from bending or splintering your bird. I think the tri-gear airplane is easier to land and lets the pilot get away with being less competent by virtue of it's design. If the fuselage is not parallel to the ground track at touchdown, it tends to straighten itself out. If the ground track is not parallel to the runway at that point, a touch of rudder sets you straight. With a tailwheel, that is the first of several places it can and will bite you between there and the chocks!!! As to which type of landing is best in a taildragger, wheel or three- point, I think it is personal preference. This has already turned into a short novel so I will close by giving you some things to consider. The wheel landing can be made at a higher airspeed so would give you more rudder, elevator, and aileron control......... The full stall landing has you touching down at a slower ground speed as long as you can keep everything parallel............. In my opinion, one should never land a tri-gear in a three point landing (if that is possible). The nose gear is generally not designed to handle such heavy loading.............. If the nose is forced down on a tri-gear while you still have flying speed, the additional lift of the tail with elevator down can raise the mains off the ground and damage the nose gear, it's attach point, firewall, etc...OR....... Send you riding your nosewheel like a wheelborrow to the nearest weed patch............ Any and all of these nosewheel tricks have been tried and proven already so do not attempt this at home..!!!!!!!! Crosswind landings can be done safely and well but you must understand them and practice them. If you don't understand them , get with a good instructor and then practice them until you get comfortable. You should be able to tell when the aircraft you are flying has reached the crosswind limits on landing by what you see happening outside the window. Once you can no longer make the airplane do what you know it needs to be doing to land safely, you have reached the limit for that airplane and you best have a back-up plan!!!!! Just my humble opinion............. Larry (yes, my kids say I ramble too) Flesner larryfle@midwest.net ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #196 *****************************