From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 6:42 AM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #86 krnet-l-digest Tuesday, May 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 086 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:04:22 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Subscribing to KR-Net Mike, What you get is an accurate description of what it takes to join KRNET-L. Unfortunatly, you don't have to be of sound moral character to join KRNET-L, but you do have to have a working email address. My mailbox gets filled up by subscribers who don't exist if I don't have the "closed" policy set up. The second quality of KRNET members is patience. You have to sift through a lot of email, and you have to wait for me to approve your email. Based on previous flames, and my dislike of playing policeman, moral character has no bearing on your membership. So lucky for you... I am adding you tonight :) - -- Regards Ross MikeT nyc wrote: > I'm in the process of subscribing to this list on Juno,and I agree the hoops > you have to jump through for this list are trickier than most. After you > send a subscribe message, Majordomo tells you to send a confirm message to an > address it gives, which is SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT from the one it's writing from, > so hitting "reply" doesn't work. > > I figured that one out, but then I got a message that my name: > > "has been forwarded to the owner of the "krnet-l" list for approval," possibly > because I "might have asked to subscribe to a "closed" list, where all new > additions must be approved by the list owner. " > > Haven't gotten an answer yet, so I guess this means Majordomo (or Ross?) is > investigating me now to see if I'm of sound moral character. Assuming I make > it, I plan to dump AOL, since every other list I want to keep is already on > Juno. > > There is an address they give for questions about the KR-Net admissions > process: "krnet-l-approval@lists.teleport.com" I'm hoping I won't need > this. > > Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:10:03 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: Foam and Fuel MikeT nyc wrote: > >>Is that blue foam you used fuel proof? I remember you telling me at Chino > >Kosh > >>that you plan to install wing tanks. > > Interesting having to pick between making your wings out of a foam that > dissolves in gasoline compared to making them out of a foam that liberates > cyanide gas if the plane has a fire. Which way would you want to go if you > had a choice? > > Mike Taglieri I love this group! I would call this an engineering trade-off. - -- Regards Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:14:30 -0700 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup Tom Crawford wrote: > So, what will work for your plane? First you go get a chicken. Then you > cut off it's head and swing it around while chanting to the KR Gods. The > answer will come to you. > > Tom Crawford > tomc@afn.org > Gainesville, FL > N262TC I need to do this soon. I plan to use a rubber chicken and ketchup, and I will let everyone know how this works. -- Regards Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:03:00 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup Ross, I think your voodoo engineering is somewhat watered down as compared to Tom. Near as I can tell, voodoo engineering is as good as any other. :o) See how fast his airplane is.... - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com On Sun, 24 May 1998 20:14:30 -0700 Ross Youngblood writes: >Tom Crawford wrote: > >> So, what will work for your plane? First you go get a chicken. Then you >> cut off it's head and swing it around while chanting to the KR Gods. The >> answer will come to you. >> >> Tom Crawford > > I need to do this soon. I plan to use a rubber chicken and ketchup, and I will >let everyone know how this works. > > -- Regards > Ross > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:23:52 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup At 08:14 PM 5/24/98 -0700, you wrote: > I need to do this soon. I plan to use a rubber chicken and ketchup, and I will let everyone know how this works. > > -- Regards > Ross I had to do a little voo doo engineering today but substituted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in a plastic baggy for the chicken. The strawberry jam spraying about while I swung the baggy overhead was quite dramatic! It works,... shortly afterwards I grabbed my japanese pull saw and started cutting. Now my stub wing trailing edges are identical. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 714.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 98 05:11:43 GMT From: mathewrz@iafrica.com (Rob Matthews) Subject: Re: KR: Fw: Trim Tab Hi Tom I have a friend who is designing a PC Board for me with a 12 - 6 volt impulse relay and this is coupled to a variable rheostat. As one turns the rheostat to the left so the servo moves up and vice versa. I thought of having a mid point mark on the rheostat which is center. One won't have to have any indication as you can pick it up off the rheostat marks. I am using the strongest R/C servo i could find which has some thing like 4 kilo grams of torque (+/- 10 pounds of torque). I am sure that this is quite fine. I am just not sure the amount of deflection is required to trim everything so that one is straight and level. I am sure that this will be a trial and error basis. I wonder if we shouldn't start thinking of having a complete moving elevator as the Cherokee 160's etc have. Maybe this will sort out the the problem of angles mounting of the fixed portion of the elevator. HA HA HA. Regards - -- Rob Matthews Have a nice day South Africa email mathewrz@iafrica.com KR 2 ZS-VCM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:46:24 EDT From: KR2 616TJ Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup << Tom Crawford wrote: > So, what will work for your plane? First you go get a chicken. Then you > cut off it's head and swing it around while chanting to the KR Gods. The > answer will come to you. > > Tom Crawford >> I'm with Mike here Tom, thanks for the info but I couldn't find a chicken so I used the neighbors dog, it really works (only kidding guys don't anyone go off :-)). After catching him and and slinging him around out in the driveway I threw the master switch........the toilet didn't flush, the car lights didn't come on, the kid's stereos didn't explode (I was hoping for this one) but more importantly no wires melted and stuff came on............trim servo works, fuel pump, wing tip lights, radio, intercom, starter...........and more importantly Meatloaf's-Paradise By the Dashboard (instrument panel) Lights sounded great thru the headset on CD. I thought it was rather appropriate. You had to be there. WOO HOO !!!! Things are startin' to happen, 90% done 30% to go. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:54:32 EDT From: KR2 616TJ Subject: Re: KR: Fw: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-25 01:10:33 EDT, you write: << I wonder if we shouldn't start thinking of having a complete moving elevator as the Cherokee 160's etc have. Maybe this will sort out the the problem of angles mounting of the fixed portion of the elevator. HA HA HA. Regards -- Rob Matthews >> Hey Mike aren't you going to make your entire elevator trimable? I know I've seen several posts over the last couple of years. For you guys who are not past the point of cutting out a trim tab this could really be the way to go................any ideas out there???? Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:38:17 From: Flesner Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup , Ross, If the voodoo is any good you shouldn't need ketchup !!!!!!!!!!!! Larry Flesner =================================================================== >>Tom Crawford wrote: >> >>> So, what will work for your plane? First you go get a chicken. Then >you >>> cut off it's head and swing it around while chanting to the KR Gods. >The >>> answer will come to you. >>> >>> Tom Crawford >> >> I need to do this soon. I plan to use a rubber chicken and ketchup, >and I will >>let everyone know how this works. >> >> -- Regards >> Ross >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:56:13 -0700 From: "Bruce S. Campbell" Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 08:14 PM 5/24/98 -0700, you wrote: > > I need to do this soon. I plan to use a rubber chicken and ketchup, and > I will let everyone know how this works. > > > > -- Regards > > Ross > > I had to do a little voo doo engineering today but substituted a peanut > butter and jelly sandwich in a plastic baggy for the chicken. The strawberry > jam spraying about while I swung the baggy overhead was quite dramatic! It > works,... shortly afterwards I grabbed my japanese pull saw and started > cutting. Now my stub wing trailing edges are identical. I've been using an old bag of chicken bones to forecast the weather for years. I can see that I need to upgrade my technology to a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in a plastic baggy. :o) Thanks Mike Bruce S. Campbell Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:15:50 -0400 From: eugene gargasz Subject: KR: kr elevator has there ever a complete moving elevator instaled on a KR? What would the result be,would there be better pictch control with less drag? How much smaller could it be? I haven't heard much about the subject on the net. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:24:44 -0400 From: "Anthony D. Zuress" Subject: KR: Lessons Hello, Student pilot w/ checkride in about 3 weeks looking for KR-2 flying lessons. I live in Atlanta, but am willing to drive. Willing to pay for gas etc... Tony zuress@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:38:32 EDT From: HAshraf Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-23 20:25:35 EDT, you write: << Sorry Dana, but I'll have to argue this point with you. You can compensate for a horizontal stab with an incorrect incidence with a larger trim tab, but the problem is still the incidence of the tail. I have lots of trim added to the bottom side of my elevator to compensate for the horizontal stab being mounted at an incorrect angle...as per plans. With the additional trim wedges permanently affixed to the bottom of the elevator, my stock trim tab does a fine job of handling every load and CG condition I can get this plane into. As a matter of fact, that was a requirement I made during the test phase. The plane should flyable from cruise to landing with trim only in all legal load configurations. The stock trim tab passed that test with plenty of trim to spare once I added the additional wedges to the bottom of the elevator. I know from talking to others that this has been a fairly common problem, especially if you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. The incidence of the horizontal stab when set per plans does not work well if you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. If it's too late to change the incidence on your tail, then an extra big trim tab is one of your options. Just realize that you are doing it to compensate for an incorrect tail incidence and that it will be creating extra drag. As for pitch sensativity, that is a completely separate subject and in my opinion is unrelated to the lack or trim or incorrect tail incidence. BTW, I turned 100 hours on my KR this morning since the first flight nearly a year ago. :o) Regards, Jeff ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm >> Jeff & Dana, What is the correct incidence, in your opinion, for the stock stabalizer. I am planning to do some calculations and that information will be helpful. Thanks, Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:46:48 EDT From: HAshraf Subject: Re: KR: Fw: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-24 14:35:37 EDT, you write: << Hello Rob, What are you using to control your R/C servo? I'm considering using a servo driver box like the kind used to test servos during installation. Kraft Midwest makes one for $25. I was even considering connecting up a PAL to this setup to give wing leveling and pitch leveling. The PAL is $79, two giant servos $35 each, and two servo drivers are $25 each. Not bad for two-axis electric trim and two-axis autopilot. I saw and R/C servo on a TEAM Minimax, he removed the amplifier board and connected a 9V battery directly to the motor, and is using a double pole, double throw switch to reverse the current flow. The 9V battery can't dump a lot of current due to internal resistance, so no resistors are used. He could turn his head around to check the position of the trim tab so no indicator was necessary. No current flows unless he presses the trim switch, so an alkaline 9V battery lasts a long time and can be replaced or backed up from the cockpit. -Tom >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:57:42 EDT From: HAshraf Subject: Re: KR: Fw: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-24 14:35:37 EDT, you write: << Hello Rob, What are you using to control your R/C servo? I'm considering using a servo driver box like the kind used to test servos during installation. Kraft Midwest makes one for $25. I was even considering connecting up a PAL to this setup to give wing leveling and pitch leveling. The PAL is $79, two giant servos $35 each, and two servo drivers are $25 each. Not bad for two-axis electric trim and two-axis autopilot. I saw and R/C servo on a TEAM Minimax, he removed the amplifier board and connected a 9V battery directly to the motor, and is using a double pole, double throw switch to reverse the current flow. The 9V battery can't dump a lot of current due to internal resistance, so no resistors are used. He could turn his head around to check the position of the trim tab so no indicator was necessary. No current flows unless he presses the trim switch, so an alkaline 9V battery lasts a long time and can be replaced or backed up from the cockpit. -Tom >> Unless you want to later have some form of propotional control a PAL is unnecessary. You can get rid of the pulse decoder PCB. Although, if you plan to use the system for stability etc. It is probably a good idea. I was thinking of getting a RC gyro and use it to try to experiment with pitch sensitivity problem. I works pretty well on RC helicopters as yaw damper. If a PAL can be used to generate the proper pulse train to control the servo as gyro can go in series with the servo and gyro gain could be adjusted for proper damping. If you wish I we could collabrate on the project. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:04:29 EDT From: HAshraf Subject: Re: KR: Fw: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-25 01:10:33 EDT, you write: << I wonder if we shouldn't start thinking of having a complete moving elevator as the Cherokee 160's etc have. Maybe this will sort out the the problem of angles mounting of the fixed portion of the elevator. HA HA HA. Regards -- Rob Matthews Have a nice day South Africa email mathew >> All commercial transports (737+) have a adjustable elevator that is controlled by hydraulics on the ground for stability.. Note that when you fly commercial. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:01:16 EDT From: KR2 616TJ Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-25 14:41:31 EDT, you write: << Jeff & Dana, What is the correct incidence, in your opinion, for the stock stabalizer. I am planning to do some calculations and that information will be helpful. Thanks, Haris >> Haris, there's a lot more people that are a whole lot more educated than me on this matter....Jeff, Mark, Steve, Don seriously you guys may want to grab this one. I'm really not proficient enough here, all I know is that I've had several people tell me they would not shim under the horizontal spar. Of course that was after I did mine "per plans". Good Luck Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:41:14 -0400 From: Harold P Subject: Re: KR: Limbach Temperatures This is for KR-flyers who have a LIMBACH up front : I would like to know the min/max temperatures you obtain: - - CHT - - OIL Do you have problems with temps ? Regards and thanks Harold Pfleiderer KR-2 CGKAV Montreal, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:45:19 -0400 From: Harold P Subject: Re: KR:Landing lights Some of you guys mentioned the WALMART spot lights: I had those on my plane when I bought it, but the former owner had installed them under the fuselage. Aerodynamic plane--just ruined by these things--- so I just finished installing them into the lower cowl and I am pleased with the outcome. Regards Harold Pfleiderer KR-2 CGKAV Montreal, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:52:11 -0700 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab What would be the suggested incidence? I will be getting close to working in that area here about 2-3 weeks. John F. Esch HAshraf wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-23 20:25:35 EDT, you write: > > << > Sorry Dana, but I'll have to argue this point with you. You can > compensate for a horizontal stab with an incorrect incidence with a > larger trim tab, but the problem is still the incidence of the tail. > I > have lots of trim added to the bottom side of my elevator to > compensate > for the horizontal stab being mounted at an incorrect angle...as per > plans. With the additional trim wedges permanently affixed to the > bottom > of the elevator, my stock trim tab does a fine job of handling every > load > and CG condition I can get this plane into. As a matter of fact, > that > was a requirement I made during the test phase. The plane should > flyable > from cruise to landing with trim only in all legal load > configurations. > The stock trim tab passed that test with plenty of trim to spare once > I > added the additional wedges to the bottom of the elevator. > > I know from talking to others that this has been a fairly common > problem, > especially if you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. > The > incidence of the horizontal stab when set per plans does not work > well if > you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. > > If it's too late to change the incidence on your tail, then an extra > big > trim tab is one of your options. Just realize that you are doing it > to > compensate for an incorrect tail incidence and that it will be > creating > extra drag. > > As for pitch sensativity, that is a completely separate subject and > in my > opinion is unrelated to the lack or trim or incorrect tail incidence. > > BTW, I turned 100 hours on my KR this morning since the first flight > nearly a year ago. :o) > > Regards, > > Jeff > ------- > Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM > jscott.pilot@juno.com > See N1213W construction and first flight at > http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: > //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm > >> > > Jeff & Dana, > > What is the correct incidence, in your opinion, for the stock > stabalizer. I am > planning to do some calculations and that information will be helpful. > > Thanks, > > Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:23 -0600 From: Adrian Carter Subject: KR: Spruce Hi Krnetter, Have noticed over the years that some builders have problems aquiring aircraft grade spruce. I have refrained from mentioning this before for the fear that it is a commercial however, I am going to go ahead with this anyhow. If I get flamed for this "tough titty" won't faze me a bit. We have a fellow here in Calgary who has been supplying aircraft spruce from his mill for the last 30 years, I'm sure he must have a Phd in aircraft wood. He only sells quality wood and is very knowledgeable in aircraft spruce. He has been running an ad in Sports Aviation for the past 25 years. And, has his wood in practically every Falco flying in North America. He has shipped wood to many countries around the world and just shipped two kits to Australia. His Name is: Jean Peters Western Aircraft Supplies 623 Markerville Road N. E., Calgary, Alberta T2E 5X1 Ph: (403) 276-3087 His KR prices are: KR2 $650.00US plus $30.00 crating cost. KR2S $690.00US plus $30.00 crating cost. He only ships via air freight, which is about one third the cost of truck and no hassles with customs. Usally ships via Delta to the nearest point near to you. This is where I purchased my wood for my KR2, he does excellent workmanship, spars are tapered fore and aft and longerons are full length. Hope this helps someone who looking for quality wood! - -- Adrian VE6AFY Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:25:49 -0500 From: "ronald.freiberger" Subject: KR: Spruce, Certified for aircraft To start, the tree is felled in a special way to prevent the compression fractures which can occur when the tree falls. I'm a Tech Counselor, and I sure can't tell you if the wood was abused along the way. We did once cut up an old T-craft spar to build a kayak, and some of the pieces fell apart due to a compression fracture. These are not visually checkable. Some parts of your Ac will have multiple redundant parts, like 'glass layups, and a little shortcut will be OK. In some cases, you'll build for handling ease, and not something that's "just strong enough". In those areas where one chain in the link carries your butt along, Yur need to be as sure as possible. Substituting Fir for Certified Spruce capstrips in rib build up, for instance, is pretty safe and commonly done. You can probably leae out all those little corner blocks in the boat buildup. But you better know your Spars are GOOD STUFF. Ron Freiberger KR2S on the gear in Fort Myers and Building the Panel in Kokomo, IN.....{;o)= - -----Original Message----- From: owner-krnet-l@teleport.com [mailto:owner-krnet-l@teleport.com] On Behalf Of Ross Youngblood Sent: Sunday, May 24, 1998 9:52 PM To: krnet-l@teleport.com Subject: Re: KR: Spuce Trent, Well, if you order your spruce from the lumber yard, there is no guarentee that it will be "Aircraft" quality. There is a government standard on this dating back to WWII. It deals with the grain slope and size of knots etc. Aircraft Spruce and Wicks are generally expected to be shipping aircraft grade, and most likely have somone on staff familiar with the standard. If you buy the wood from a local source, get a local EAA technical counselor (familiar with wood aircraft ) to come with you and assist in selecting the wood, or at least see if you can become familiar with the standard to make the selection yourself. There are several books available on the topic, but I don't have them handy to post. - -- Ross Trent Flemming wrote: > Hi Group, > > I have recieved my plans for the KR-2S (no thanks to UPS). I checked my > local lumber yards (McCoys and Lowes) and they say that they can order the > Spruce that I need. Is there any difference in the quailty or otherwise of > the Spruce between the lumber yards and AS&S. I haven't recieved a price of > the Spruce from the lumber yard yet. May not be worthwhile at all if the > lumber yards price is to high. > > Thanks > > Trent > > mailto:tflemming@texramp.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:42:26 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Rubber Chicken's and Ketchup I've got to get one of you good Voodoo Engineers out here to work over my bird. I added wheel pants, had some pitch taken out of the prop so it turns right at red line (2550 rpm) in cruise, and the plane slowed down. I couldn't believe it. I took the plane out this weekend loaded as lightly as I could make it and confirmed my suspicions. It slowed down 5 mph in return for my efforts. :o( Of course with the cut down prop it does climb like a homesick angel. :o) Maybe one of you guys will mail me the rubber chicken for a proper ceremony when you're done. :o) - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:32:13 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab Unfortunately, I'm familiar with the problem and only have an opinion about the solution. Since I haven't remounted the horizontal stab, I don't have an answer. If any engineers want to figure it out, I have a 3/4" thick by 36" long wedge under the trailing edge of the elevator to make my trim fully effective through out the CG range. This also puts my trim into a neutral position during cruise, which would be ideal if the stab was mounted at the correct incidence instead of compensating with draggy trim wedges. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm On Mon, 25 May 1998 15:52:11 -0700 "John F. Esch" writes: >What would be the suggested incidence? I will be getting close to >working in that area here about 2-3 weeks. > >John F. Esch > > >HAshraf wrote: > >> In a message dated 98-05-23 20:25:35 EDT, you write: >> >> << >> Sorry Dana, but I'll have to argue this point with you. You can >> compensate for a horizontal stab with an incorrect incidence with a >> larger trim tab, but the problem is still the incidence of the >tail. >> I >> have lots of trim added to the bottom side of my elevator to >> compensate >> for the horizontal stab being mounted at an incorrect angle...as >per >> plans. With the additional trim wedges permanently affixed to the >> bottom >> of the elevator, my stock trim tab does a fine job of handling >every >> load >> and CG condition I can get this plane into. As a matter of fact, >> that >> was a requirement I made during the test phase. The plane should >> flyable >> from cruise to landing with trim only in all legal load >> configurations. >> The stock trim tab passed that test with plenty of trim to spare >once >> I >> added the additional wedges to the bottom of the elevator. >> >> I know from talking to others that this has been a fairly common >> problem, >> especially if you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. >> The >> incidence of the horizontal stab when set per plans does not work >> well if >> you are flying in the forward part of the CG range. >> >> If it's too late to change the incidence on your tail, then an >extra >> big >> trim tab is one of your options. Just realize that you are doing >it >> to >> compensate for an incorrect tail incidence and that it will be >> creating >> extra drag. >> >> As for pitch sensativity, that is a completely separate subject and >> in my >> opinion is unrelated to the lack or trim or incorrect tail >incidence. >> >> BTW, I turned 100 hours on my KR this morning since the first >flight >> nearly a year ago. :o) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jeff >> ------- >> Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM >> jscott.pilot@juno.com >> See N1213W construction and first flight at >> http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: >> //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm >> >> >> >> Jeff & Dana, >> >> What is the correct incidence, in your opinion, for the stock >> stabalizer. I am >> planning to do some calculations and that information will be >helpful. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Haris > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:11:45 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: as5048 spar dimensions AirfoilHeads, Dean's busy setting the world on fire with his composite fuselage, so I figured I'd give him some dimensions to work with for the 18% AS5048 airfoil. See http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as5048.jpg for the following discussion... Assuming that we put the 18% AS5048 airfoil in the same location as the stock RAF48, and assuming we use .5 degrees of incidence rather than 3.5, the main spar will have to be 8.16" tall and the aft spar will be 4.81 inches tall. The aft spar will either have to be spaced up 1.6" above the lower longeron, or the lower longeron will have to be recontoured. Still waiting on a few other opinions before I say for sure, but .5 is currently the only game in town (thanks to Mark Lougheed)... Mark Langford mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:31:38 EDT From: HAshraf Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab In a message dated 98-05-25 17:02:24 EDT, you write: << Haris, there's a lot more people that are a whole lot more educated than me on this matter....Jeff, Mark, Steve, Don seriously you guys may want to grab this one. I'm really not proficient enough here, all I know is that I've had several people tell me they would not shim under the horizontal spar. Of course that was after I did mine "per plans". Good Luck Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ >> I actually wanted to address the problem. We have identified that the stab. incidence may need to be decreased. It would be nice to conduct some calculations and experiments and come to a consesus. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:33:58 -0600 From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab & AS5048 Aft spar You dudes are onto something here. Looking at these two postings, we may put everything together. If the incidence is only 0.5 degrees instead of 3.5 deg, would that reduce or eliminate some of the "nose down when flying level"? As far as the horizontal stabilizer, I just cannot figure out what is happening with Jeff's wedges. Seems that the horizontal stab needs to be modified but I can't figure out the direction. Has someone already suggested a better incidence for the horizontal stab...with or without the new airfoil? Ron Lee At 08:32 PM 5/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >Unfortunately, I'm familiar with the problem and only have an opinion >about the solution. Since I haven't remounted the horizontal stab, I >don't have an answer. If any engineers want to figure it out, I have a >3/4" thick by 36" long wedge under the trailing edge of the elevator to >make my trim fully effective through out the CG range. This also puts my >trim into a neutral position during cruise, which would be ideal if the >stab was mounted at the correct incidence instead of compensating with >draggy trim wedges. >Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM See http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as5048.jpg for the following discussion... Assuming that we put the 18% AS5048 airfoil in the same location as the stock RAF48, and assuming we use .5 degrees of incidence rather than 3.5, the main spar will have to be 8.16" tall and the aft spar will be 4.81 inches tall. The aft spar will either have to be spaced up 1.6" above the lower longeron, or the lower longeron will have to be recontoured. Still waiting on a few other opinions before I say for sure, but .5 is currently the only game in town (thanks to Mark Lougheed)... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:35:40 -0000 From: "Brian J Bland" Subject: KR:New wep page I just wanted to let everyone know that my web page will now be located at: http://www.flight2000.com/hangar/KR-2S If anybody is needing space for a web page or needs more room please check out http://www.flight2000.com As of right now they do not limit your space and it is dedicated to aviation sites. There is not much yet available at my new address but I will be adding to it soon. It will be layed out totally different than my old web site. Brian J. Bland Claremore, OK KR-2S@flight2000.com http://www.flight2000.com/hanger/KR-2S http://www.busprod.com/bbland/kr2s.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:10:43 EDT From: BSHADR Subject: KR: Stump Puller review (almost) Well folks, Sunday I flew out with a couple of EZ guys to Chino to check out Mike's SP. Mike wasn't there, in fact the whole airport was almost dead except for the banner towing guys dive bombing and dropping off the banners. Kind of fun to watch once or twice, boring after that. Anyhow, since Mike was not home and we had no one else to pester, we did what comes natural and went rooting in the dumpster outside Mike's hanger. The EZ builders were impressed with Mike's hotwire discards. They thought the scrap looked pretty good. They said Mike knows how to hot wire! These guys built and fly pristine Long EZ's, so Mike - Consider this the highest compliment. After seeing the scraps, these two were drooling to get into the hanger to see what the "keeper parts" looked like and what they were attached to. Next trip out I'll have to remember to bring my "Sawzall" hanger door opener. ;) Randy Stein Flames to: BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:20:00 EDT From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab ><< I wonder if we shouldn't start thinking of having a complete moving >elevator as > the Cherokee 160's etc have. Maybe this will sort out the the problem of >angles > mounting of the fixed portion of the elevator. HA HA HA. > Regards > -- > Rob Matthews >> > >Hey Mike aren't you going to make your entire elevator trimable? I know I've >seen several posts over the last couple of years. For you guys who are not >past the point of cutting out a trim tab this could really be the way to >go................any ideas out there???? In theory, this is a great idea. However, just looking at page 17 of the plans, I see a problem that the front and back spars for the horizontal stabilizer are VERY solidly mounted to the boat with plywood webs. etc. To have an adjustable stabilizer, you'd have to add hinges on one and a screw device on the other, but the rigidity of the stabilizer should be as great as the original and without play. Also, you couldn't have the usual glassed-on fairing if the stabilizer was going to move. Once you designed a strong-enough moveable stabilizer, actual adjustment could be done easily by putting a pully around the belly of a turnbuckle or jackscrew and have a cable going to a crank in the cockpit. I suppose springloading the stabilizer would prevent play and the screw you used would be a high wear item, so you'd want to be able to replace easily it every couple of years. Does anyone know if this is the way Cubs, etc., handle the wear problem? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 05:55:43 -0600 From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: KR: Stump Puller review (almost) How inconsiderate of Mike not to be there for a surprise visit and on hand to receive that high praise. Ron lee At 02:10 AM 5/26/98 EDT, you wrote: > >Well folks, Sunday I flew out with a couple of EZ guys to Chino to check out >Mike's SP. Mike wasn't there, in fact the whole airport was almost dead >except for the banner towing guys dive bombing and dropping off the banners. >Kind of fun to watch once or twice, boring after that. Anyhow, since Mike was >not home and we had no one else to pester, we did what comes natural and went >rooting in the dumpster outside Mike's hanger. > >The EZ builders were impressed with Mike's hotwire discards. They thought the >scrap looked pretty good. They said Mike knows how to hot wire! These guys >built and fly pristine Long EZ's, so Mike - Consider this the highest >compliment. After seeing the scraps, these two were drooling to get into the >hanger to see what the "keeper parts" looked like and what they were attached >to. > >Next trip out I'll have to remember to bring my "Sawzall" hanger door opener. >;) > >Randy Stein >Flames to: BSHADR@aol.com >Soviet Monica, CA > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:43:08 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Trim Tab KR2 616TJ wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-25 14:41:31 EDT, you write: > << Jeff & Dana, > What is the correct incidence, in your opinion, for the stock stabalizer. This is a fairly involved process, that depends in large part on your design flight conditions. Usually you select the anticipated cruise conditions at some realistic altitude and weight. If your calculations are correct, the stab is set perfectly for this case and for no other. You want the stab set correctly to minimize the cruise drag. It will still fly more or less properly, but if the elevator is displaced to create the correct trim force, the resulting drag will be higher. This is why stabilators are a more "natural" solution, at least from the standpoint of drag. Another way to go is to make an easily adjustable stabilizer, either ground adjustable or moveable in flight. A Piper stabilizer jack screw would work great. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #86 ****************************