From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Sunday, June 21, 1998 1:21 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #101 krnet-l-digest Sunday, June 21 1998 Volume 02 : Number 101 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:04:43 EDT From: Robert7721@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Kansas City Mike Cochran, EAA Chapter 91 fly-in is on June 27th at Lee's Summit Airport. Should be a good time to see a bunch of exp. aircraft. Send me a email if you need additional information on the Fly-in. I have just received the wood for my KR2S project so nothing to see there. Rob Schmitt robert7721@aol.com Lee's Summit, MO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:05:17 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: header tanks leaking/u-foam burning In a message dated 98-06-19 20:16:56 EDT, you write: << he hit the ground pretty damn hard and was sitting > inverted. This sounds like a crash that could and would kill almost > anyone regardless of aircraft type. >> Guys the first rule of thumb is be able to get out of the $#%$ thing, second is plan ahead. I guess I'm kind of the local "sucker" but in the last 6 weeks or so, I've test flown a Kitfox, Pulsar, ultralight MX, ultralight Weedhopper and one other ultralight that is of the homebuilt variety. None of these fall in the catagory of the KR unless you throw in the Glasair where I had to use a phone book from the FBO to see over the panel last fall. It sure sounds like to me (and I'm sorry it happened) that the reason the guy died is the plane flew while taxi testing and, like Mike said, hit pretty damn hard. Know what you are going to do in case something, or anything, happens. The Kitfox owner was taxi testing and used my flying stall speeds to increase his taxi speed to the point where he tried to drive the tail into the ground as the end of the runway approached, he ended up (you guessed it) flying. He failed to consider the difference in flight attitude and increasing/decreasing airspeed. By the time he got it back on the ground he was off the runway and ended up clipping a fence post. Luckily he only had to patch the bottom of his wing. I won't even go into the MX owner who got if off the ground without an airspeed indicator. All he had to say was that when it got off the ground he forgot where the throttle was. If you haven't downloaded Rick Junkin's flight test plan do it now, I've used it everytime since he has posted it, especially in marking the runway decision points, it works. The gas may have been the determining factor in his death but the reason was avoidable. Doc, I was waiting for your response on this one. Nuf said. Flame suit on (Rick sent me one) :-)) Short, Stubby, Responsive, Standard KR coming at ya Melody Mountains.:-)) Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.co, http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:27:39 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: leading edge volume Tom Andersen wrote: > Maybe Mark (The CAD Cing) could tell me how many square inches > are ahead of the main spar on a > RAF48 106% root profile? Tom, The area of a leading edge cross section scaled up by 1.06 would be 60 sq inches. With a half inch offset for foam, the number drops to 48 square inches, which says that each inch of tank span is worth .208 gallons, or almost 5 gallons per side of your stub wing, not counting air space, baffles, etc... Of course, now that I've done it, I should have used 1.03 as the average between your larger root and the standard root airfoil, but you get the idea. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:45:57 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: header tanks leaking/u-foam burning Dana, Why don't you see the Pulsar in the same category as the KR-2? What other aircraft do you see in the same category? Sonerai? Teenie Two? Midget Mustang? Not the Mustang II, I wouldn't think. The NTSB report states that no fatal injuries were received other than the pulmonary edema, which was caused by the cyanide-laced smoke in the cockpit. He couldn't get out because he was inverted, not because he was dead from the impact. - -Tom KR2616TJ@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-19 20:16:56 EDT, you write: > > << he hit the ground pretty damn hard and was sitting > > inverted. This sounds like a crash that could and would kill almost > > anyone regardless of aircraft type. >> > > Guys the first rule of thumb is be able to get out of the $#%$ thing, second > is plan ahead. I guess I'm kind of the local "sucker" but in the last 6 weeks > or so, I've test flown a Kitfox, Pulsar, ultralight MX, ultralight Weedhopper > and one other ultralight that is of the homebuilt variety. None of these fall > in the catagory of the KR unless you throw in the Glasair where I had to use a > phone book from the FBO to see over the panel last fall. It sure sounds like > to me (and I'm sorry it happened) that the reason the guy died is the plane > flew while taxi testing and, like Mike said, hit pretty damn hard. Know what > you are going to do in case something, or anything, happens. The Kitfox owner > was taxi testing and used my flying stall speeds to increase his taxi speed to > the point where he tried to drive the tail into the ground as the end of the > runway approached, he ended up (you guessed it) flying. He failed to consider > the difference in flight attitude and increasing/decreasing airspeed. By the > time he got it back on the ground he was off the runway and ended up clipping > a fence post. Luckily he only had to patch the bottom of his wing. I won't > even go into the MX owner who got if off the ground without an airspeed > indicator. All he had to say was that when it got off the ground he forgot > where the throttle was. If you haven't downloaded Rick Junkin's flight test > plan do it now, I've used it everytime since he has posted it, especially in > marking the runway decision points, it works. > > The gas may have been the determining factor in his death but the reason was > avoidable. Doc, I was waiting for your response on this one. > > Nuf said. > > Flame suit on (Rick sent me one) :-)) > > Short, Stubby, Responsive, Standard KR coming at ya Melody Mountains.:-)) > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > mailto:kr2616tj@aol.co, > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:10:21 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: header tanks leaking/u-foam burning At 10:45 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >The NTSB report states that no fatal injuries were received other than the pulmonary edema, which was caused by the cyanide-laced smoke in the cockpit. >>>> I got two more things to say about this: One, dead is dead Two, MARTIN BAKER MK IV EJECTION SEAT. $1000. . This seat is from the co-pilot's side of a Handley Page Victor and still has the seat chute intact, but is missing the cushions. Otherwise complete. Contact Brent Tyrell in Ancaster, Ontario, Canada. Telephone: (905) 648-9021. -- Posted: 3/29/98 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:21:55 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: leading edge volume Mark, Thanks! This will work well for me to incorporate. I though 106% would be correct because it's halfway between 100% and 112%, but actually, volume doesn't work that neatly, it's exponentially tied to length and height increases. The 112% airfoil is in 12% larger in length and height, rather than area. I'm guessing that 110% would be an average to multiply span by. Out of those 5 gallons per side, probably 1 gallon per side will go to the landing gear brackets, so four gallons per side would be a conservative estimation. How much of the rear area of the stub tank would I close off to equal those four gallons? I'm thinking eight inches? It would be good to keep fuel out of that shallow, upward sloping area since it makes a poor sump for a pickup during cruise, and would allow fuel to run behind the CG. - -Tom Mark Langford wrote: > Tom Andersen wrote: > > > Maybe Mark (The CAD Cing) could tell me how many square inches > > are ahead of the main spar on a > > RAF48 106% root profile? > > Tom, > > The area of a leading edge cross section scaled up by 1.06 would be 60 sq > inches. With a half inch offset for foam, the number drops to 48 square > inches, which says that each inch of tank span is worth .208 gallons, or > almost 5 gallons per side of your stub wing, not counting air space, > baffles, etc... Of course, now that I've done it, I should have used 1.03 > as the average between your larger root and the standard root airfoil, but > you get the idea. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:22:11 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Bernie Warnke On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:33 -0700 Micheal Mims writes: >At 09:23 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:, > ><"almost constant speed" may have been marketing hype... anyone know >the real story?>>>> > >I think they were call this because there was little RPM variation >from >static runup, climb, and cruise. > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims Clark Lydick of Performance Propellors learned the trade from Bernie and uses the same basic design and the same 1/16" laminate blanks. His prop on my C-85 currently turns 2450 static, 2475 during climb, and tops out at 2575 at full throttle cruise. With a variation or 125 rpm between static and full throttle cruise (~150 mph), that is what I would consider to be "almost constant speed". - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:16:17 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: KR: Re: Insurance??? In general, the insurance companies will not sell you HULL insurance until the plane has completed the first 10 hours of flight testing. Some companies have other requirements for certain modifications or flight times if you are flying a Subaru as well as some other auto conversions. I haven't heard of any restrictions placed on the VW. Most of these restricitons have to do with changing pully sizes and things like that due to the high revs many of the auto conversions are turning. The insurance companies will sell you liability and medical insurance from day 1. I have carried $1,000,000 liability and $100,000 per seat medical on my KR since just prior to the first flight last year. With Avemco, this costs me $411 per year. Experience in the logbook will get you a discount as well. If your plane is a taildragger, taildragger time in you log book counts double toward the insurance discounts. When a partner and I bought a Champ a few years ago, he had 1200 hours in his loggbock with all of it in tri-gear. I had 775 hours with 725 of it in taildraggers. I was the less expensive one to insure. If I remember correctly the price breaks come at 500 hour intervals. Jeff - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:17:10 -0700 Micheal Mims writes: >At 07:54 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Can you get insurance on a KR-2??? >> >>Just wondering.. >> > >Insurance is a tricky thing with homebuilts. Someone told me the other day >that AVEMCO would not insure a homebuilt in its flight testing phase if it >was running a Subaru. Unless that Subaru came from certain vendors. I >wonder what their position is on VW engines that are built up by the owner >and not from GP or TEC? What about Lycomings and Continentals that are >built by non A&Ps? This could get interesting if you couldn't get insurance >at the time you may need it most. But the answer to your question is YES >you can get insurance on a KR-2. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:09:06 -0700 From: "Bruce Knorr" Subject: KR: Re: nice straight trailing edges - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Thursday, June 18, 1998 9:18 PM Subject: KR: nice straight trailing edges >If you guys want I could post some drawings on how the Rutan method works. >Let me know. Please do ! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:18:39 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: nice straight trailing edges At 06:09 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >Please do ! > > > I did at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/trailing.jpg zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:08:23 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: tie down spacing? Anybody know what the "standard" spacing for wing tie downs is? I'm about to close out my outer spars and I'd like to glue in an extra block to run the bolts thru for the tie down/jack point connection. Thanks, Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:20:18 EDT From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: wing tanks Ross: Your'e quite correct. The schematic shows the overflow line being a separate line. Bob Lasecki Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:38:28 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing? >Anybody know what the "standard" spacing for wing tie downs is? I'm about >to close out my outer spars and I'd like to glue in an extra block to run >the bolts thru for the tie down/jack point connection. > >Thanks, > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama I don't think it matters much does it, being that ropes/chains are used anyway to get to the ground points? I was planning on sticking mine on the outer stub spar points. (or vicinity). :) I seem to remember liking Bobby Muses's setup, but don't remember his spacing exactly. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:09:16 EDT From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing? Mark: Dan Diehl in his instructions for his skins says to mount the tie downs about 15 inches in from the end of the spar. That is where I installed mine and they look about right. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:04:31 -0500 From: "Dean R. Collette, MD" Subject: KR: Firewall Modifications > Keep in mind the firewall has been reinforced since that happened. > >Marvin McCoy >Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field >mr.marvin@worldnet.att.net Does anyone know more about the firewall changes that were made and, more specifically, WHEN they were made? Were these changes part of the the "KR2S" plans (even when they were first released)? The reason that I ask is that the plans for a KR2S that I have are fairly old - circa 1992. Was anything in the plans changed after this? Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:30:46 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing?/skins >Mark: > >Dan Diehl in his instructions for his skins says to mount the tie downs about >15 inches in from the end of the spar. That is where I installed mine and >they look about right. That sounds like it would look right. I like the cool setups where the tiedown ring retracts. Is Dan Diehl still selling wing skins for the KR-2S? (Price?) Thanks anyone, Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:39:45 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: RE: KR: tie down spacing? > Dan Diehl in his instructions for his skins says to mount the tie > downs about > 15 inches in from the end of the spar. That is where I installed mine and > they look about right. IN or OUT? While I realize that it would structurally better to put them on the stub wings, I have fuel tanks there, and I'd have thought the regular airport tiedowns would be a little farther apart. I hope you mean 15 inches OUT from the spar inside the outboard wings. Let me know. I could easily put them in the gap between the stub and outer wing and fasten it to the WAFs but my wheels just happen to be right there too. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:05:30 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: RE: KR: tie down spacing? >> Dan Diehl in his instructions for his skins says to mount the tie >> downs about >> 15 inches in from the end of the spar. That is where I installed mine and >> they look about right. > >IN or OUT? >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama I took that to mean in from the outer wingtip myself, somewhere on the outer spar. If using the stub wings I would put them nearest to the ends as possible, unless other stuff is in the way as you say. Mark, you do work for NASA at times, don't you? Use Tractor Beams for tiedowns. ;) Robert Covington side two and glueglueglue ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:30:22 PDT From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: foam Can anybody tell me what brand name of extruded polystyrene and urethane foams AS+S and wicks is distibuting? I'm wondering whats different than the pink stuff I can get at my local lumberyard. Richard E. Parker Jaffrey, NH richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:08:59 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing?/skins Robert, I recently bought Dan's wing skins, here's the breakdown: Skins for outer wing panels $1500 Crating: $50 Vinylester Resin, gal $30 1 hr video $30 Total = $1610 Shipping was $157 additionally. I picked them up from the shipper myself in my '86 Mustang GT. Boy was that a pain. The box is 9 feet long x 4 feet wide. I probably need another gallon of vinyl ester resin. In the video, Dan and four helpers put the wing skins on a KR 1.5 inside of a weekend, and the fellow even had time to install his VOR antenna in the wing. You don't even flip the plane over to put the skins on. You put the bottom skin on first, and finger fillet all the ribs and spars with flox. When that is cured, you load on piles of flox on the tops of the ribs and spars, and clamp them on with some simple clamps made from 1" sticks. You don't do the leading edge at that stage, you do that last, after everything is cured, you just push apart the joggle and slip some flox in there, then tape it together with strapping tape. You have to take all the gloss off the wings with about #200 grit sandpaper. It pains me to think about that... Dan is getting ready for a price increase, if you want them, get them now. It seems all aircraft part price increases are exceeding inflation many times over. Buy the parts you want ASAP. - -Tom Robert Covington wrote: > >Mark: > > > >Dan Diehl in his instructions for his skins says to mount the tie downs about > >15 inches in from the end of the spar. That is where I installed mine and > >they look about right. > > That sounds like it would look right. I like the cool setups where the > tiedown ring retracts. > > Is Dan Diehl still selling wing skins for the KR-2S? (Price?) > > Thanks anyone, > > Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:22:20 -0800 From: "Parley T. Byington" Subject: Re: KR: cracks Darrin I found the same type cracks in the end of my spars awhile back, I filled them with flox and put a piece of 3/32 plywood over them to help seal them from the elements. This was about six years ago and I have not had any problems. I believe that these cracks are from the wood shrinking and drying out and that the cracks are not deep. I am working on a design (ultrasound) to allow me to do non destructive testing or looking into the internal structure of spars. I am sure when I get it completed I won't have any trouble selling it to home builders especially if I can keep the price within reason. Good luck Parley On 17 Jun 98 at 22:10, Darrin West wrote: Hey netters, I was looking over my boat stage project today and discovered a possible problem with my main spars. I bought a project in the boat stage which appears pretty old. I found a crack in the end of the main spars and can't determine how deep they are. Are these kind of "cracks" normal in older wood or a major problem? With all this talk about wings falling off, I don't want to take any chances! Is it feasable to replace the spars or would I be better off cutting my losses and starting from scratch? Darrin West KR-1 mailto:dwest@rose.net ......... . / .---------crack . / . ......... . . . . . . . . . . ......... . / .----------crack . / . ......... END OF SPAR STUB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:59:57 EDT From: XZOSTD1@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: foam From Wicks I received Styrofoam brand Extruded Polystyrene Insulation. 1"= R5 I'll have a nice warm plane??? Bill From Green Bay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:53:17 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Firewall Modifications At 03:04 PM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know more about the firewall changes that were made and, more specifically, WHEN they were made? Were these changes part of the the "KR2S" plans (even when they were first released)? > I don't think there has been a revision to the S plans. The firewall is a little bit larger and there are plywood pieces on the sides of the fuselage that helps tie the lower shelf into the main structure. If your plans show that then that's all there is to it. Some have installed a third shelf down by the rudder pedals to help tie in the lower portion. Troy Petteway's is a fine example. I think it can be seen on Mark Langfords page somewhere. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:55:43 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: RE: Insurance??? At 07:54 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Can you get insurance on a KR-2??? > >Just wondering.. > >Thomas Gatliff >KR-2 Owner Wannabe.. >gatliff@mindspring.com > > yes! Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:55:45 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: RE: Insurance??? At 06:02 PM 6/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Yes, I am currently with Costello Associates at about $750/year with hull >insurance. (800-528-6483). > >If anyone has a cheaper agent...jump in. > >Ron Lee > > >At 07:54 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Can you get insurance on a KR-2??? >> >>Just wondering.. >> >>Thomas Gatliff >>KR-2 Owner Wannabe.. >>gatliff@mindspring.com >> >> > I'm with Costello Associates Insurance also. I purchased $1M liability insurance only for $375/year(I think). I did not buy Hull insurance. I figured that if I broke my KR and lived that I could fix it. Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:08:21 EDT From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing? The instructions clearly say to put them "about 15 inches in from the outer end of the forward spar." His wing skins don't use the foam extensions to the spar, so it would be 15 inches in form the end of the wood section. The same shows up on his construction video. I'd be happy to loan you a copy of either the text or the video for reference. Bob Lasecki Chicago - checking for vertical room to flip. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:25:03 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing? At 02:08 PM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody know what the "standard" spacing for wing tie downs is? I'm about >to close out my outer spars and I'd like to glue in an extra block to run >the bolts thru for the tie down/jack point connection. > >Thanks, > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html > > I went out to the airport and measured a couple of airplanes. I found if matched what I found that the wing spar was too thin where the tie down points would be. I moved in to 16" to 18" from the outboard tip of the 'wood' spare to place my tie downs. I drilled a 5/16" hole thru the the bottom spar cap and bonded a hex nut(welded to a small steel plate with holes drilled in the plate to make it look like cheesecake)to the top of the bottom spar. I used a eyebolt from the Home Depot. Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:07:49 -0700 From: Darrin West Subject: KR: new web page It ain't much but I'm adding as I learn. I am having pictures of my kr scanned next week. Check it out!! mailto:dwest@rose.net http://home.rose.net/~dwest/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:00:36 CST From: "dboll" Subject: [none] > Can anyone tell me if West Systems 105 epoxy resin can be used as a sui= table > substiture for bounding wood to wood as in spar caps to web. > Thanks Don, ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:02:13 CST From: "dboll" Subject: KR: T--88 > Can anyone tell me if West Systems 105 epoxy resin can be used as a sui= table > substiture for bounding wood to wood as in spar caps to web. > Thanks Don, ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:21:15 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: KR: Re: On Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:00:36 CST "dboll" writes: > > Can anyone tell me if West Systems 105 epoxy resin can be used as a >suitable > substiture for bounding wood to wood as in spar caps to web. > Thanks Don, > Mine are glued together with it. - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:24:39 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: foam In a message dated 98-06-20 17:30:50 EDT, you write: << Can anybody tell me what brand name of extruded polystyrene and urethane foams AS+S and wicks is distibuting? I'm wondering whats different than the pink stuff I can get at my local lumberyard. Richard E. Parker >> Richard, I obviously don't know what the name of the stuff you can get at your local lumber yard but Mark Langford turned me onto to a company where you can buy the pink stuff that is used in residential and commercial construction. I justed looked for the number but cannot find it. Get hold of Mark, maybe he still has the number. It's much cheaper that AS&S, just don't tell them you're building an airplane with it. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:47:02 +0200 From: aabbcc01@infonie.fr Subject: KR: spars cracks hi , kr builders I have a doubt about the design of the connections of outers to the center spars it's very archaic (but it's not the problem) What my mind can't accept, it's why they need to make a drilling inside this vital organs and specially at the end of it.(where the craks are many probability to occur). For me this is not a logic and serious design normally, the grinder flange must stay undrilled(except for metallic spars)but only some reinforcements parts inside the spar must be drilled for to allow the attaching of the two parts spar together. so, the spar don't become weakened (i have also some interrogations to myself about the attaching of landing gear but, this is least problematic of this two because easy to solve). For my concern i don't like to make a such spar. I hope somebody can to discuss really about this problem and they don't try to praise only the quality of the actuel spar design . If ever some people have experience in design of spar or some documents them suggestions are welcome. I think is an other road for to increase the performance of kr2s with more strong wing reqired for an always more speed airplane. and make it more beside the perfection. E.D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:51:29 From: * Flesner * Subject: Re: KR: tie down spacing? At 02:08 PM 6~20~98 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody know what the "standard" spacing for wing tie downs is? I'm about >to close out my outer spars and I'd like to glue in an extra block to run >the bolts thru for the tie down/jack point connection. >Mark Langford, ======================================= Mark, When I was at that stage I stepped off the distance at the local airport and as I recall it was right at 20 feet or so. I guess that is why I installed my tiedowns at the outboard end of the standard length wings( 20ft 8in) at the end of the spars. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:42:13 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: flip-o-matic In a message dated 98-06-19 22:46:41 EDT, you write: << Why don't you see the Pulsar in the same category as the KR-2? >> It's not as "quick". Yesterday used Mike's flip-o-matic (patent pending). I'll end up keeping this thing tucked away somewhere, it works that good. For you guys who are worried about finishing everything on the bottom at one time...............don't. If you want to jump around like me, this thing is sturdy enough use time and time again. I took Mike's recommendatin and made it as wide as possible. Even with my bird as heavy as it is now, it was a piece-o-cake. We used one person on a rope (as opposed to soap on a rope :-)) tied to the tailwheel, two to push it up and over, one kid on each wing tip to keep it from pivoting over the top and two on the down side. It went over so easy we thought about about doing it again just for the fun of it. Now my neighbors really think I'm nuts with the thing upside down in the driveway, I'm telling them they better get used to this view, just higher :-)). Smooth Prime (poly-fiber) the real deal, will finish up the stub wings, horizontal stab and elevator today. Will apply my final coal of vinyl ester resin to the inside of my header tank today.............I know, I'm just adding fuel to the fire :-)). Thanks Mike, pretty cool idea for flippin' the thing. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:13:38 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks aabbcc01@infonie.fr wrote: > > hi , kr builders > > I have a doubt about the design of the connections of outers to the center > spars it's very archaic (but it's not the problem) > What my mind can't accept, it's why they need to make a drilling inside > this vital organs and specially at the end of it.(where the craks are many > probability to occur). This design of spar attachment is well designed and in accordance (more or less) with available reference material, such as ANC-18, Design Of Wooden Aircraft Structures. When designing a removable spar that is joined end-to-end, there are a limited number of ways to perform the design. There are other methods that involve overlapping material but they all involve bolt(s) through the grain of the wood. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:18:29 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: flip-o-matic At 08:42 AM 6/21/98 EDT, you wrote: >Will apply my final coal of vinyl ester resin to the inside of my header tank >today.............I know, I'm just adding fuel to the fire :-)). > >Thanks Mike, pretty cool idea for flippin' the thing. > I cant take 100% credit for the flip-o-matic because I saw something similar in an old KR newsletter. I can take credit for having access to a MUCH larger audience to share it with though. (not just KRNet but the entire www). I think I will push my project out of the hanger today and flip her back over. I am getting tired of working on the belly and like you said its just too easy to flip to leave it like this (inverted). I floxed my fuel cap neck and vent tubes in last night with EZpoxy. All that's left to do to the belly now is some touch up filling (Smooth Prime mixed with micro balloons) and final color application. I took a few pics of the project yesterday and should have them up on the web sometime this week. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:25:40 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks At 02:47 PM 6/21/98 +0200, you wrote: >For my concern i don't like to make a such spar. I hope somebody can to discuss really about this problem and they don't try to praise only the quality of the actual spar design.>>>> I know its not what you want to hear but the KR spar design is pretty common on two piece wood spars for homebuilts. It is very strong and there has NEVER been a spar failure in a KR. The wing attach fittings have been thoroughly thought out by REAL engineers (at Rand Robinson and here on KRNet) and they are much, much stronger than they first appear. The only way I can see getting around some sort of fitting that doesn't have bolt holes drilled into the spar is to build a one piece spar. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:09:40 +0200 From: aabbcc01@infonie.fr Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks - ---------- > De : Donald Reid > A : krnet-l@teleport.com > Objet : Re: KR: spars cracks > Date : dimanche 21 juin 1998 16:13 > > > When designing a removable spar that is joined end-to-end, there are a > limited number of ways to perform the design. There are other methods > that involve overlapping material but they all involve bolt(s) through > the grain of the wood. > > -- > Don Reid > Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com > KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm > Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html of course the bolt(s) must to go through the grain wood i'm ok but not at random place and certainly not go through the ginder flange. this is what i learned from the design of my first all wood airplaine the bolts go through the spar but the ginder flange stay undrilled only some reinforcements in the middle of the two ginder flange are drilled for to allow the bolts to fasten the spar to the fuselage my problem is to apply this to the kr2 at end to end parts spars. E.D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:20:32 +0200 From: aabbcc01@infonie.fr Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks ok mike i agree with your advise about the strength of spar what is more important is the experience of many hours of fly without problem because it's difficult to innovate in a design of a spar so may be this spar is good but i'm very fearful . - ---------- > De : Micheal Mims > A : krnet-l@teleport.com > Objet : Re: KR: spars cracks > Date : dimanche 21 juin 1998 18:25 > > At 02:47 PM 6/21/98 +0200, you wrote: > >For my concern i don't like to make a such spar. I hope somebody can to > discuss really about this problem and they don't try to praise only the > quality of the actual spar design.>>>> > > I know its not what you want to hear but the KR spar design is pretty common > on two piece wood spars for homebuilts. It is very strong and there has > NEVER been a spar failure in a KR. The wing attach fittings have been > thoroughly thought out by REAL engineers (at Rand Robinson and here on > KRNet) and they are much, much stronger than they first appear. The only > way I can see getting around some sort of fitting that doesn't have bolt > holes drilled into the spar is to build a one piece spar. > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > Irvine Ca > Fax 949.856.9417 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #101 *****************************