From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 6:46 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #103 krnet-l-digest Wednesday, June 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 103 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:27:51 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks aabbcc01@infonie.fr wrote: > > I know it's what i dont like on this design for me it's more good to stay undrilled the spar caps.and in all design of spar what i can to see never the spar caps are drilled it's only some reinforcement in vertical members are drilled.>>> > Oh OK Now I get it! Sorry it took so long. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:14:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks Hi, First would you be so kind, to tell us your first name. First initials=20 are so impersonal for a friendly group like this one :-) As I understand what you are saying, this describes the two terminologies: __ Girder Flange (semelle) (Spar Cap) ___/___ || || ||___|| || || || || || || || ||<-- longeron caisson (Spar Web) || || || || ||___|| || || ||___|| I am out of town on business so don't have access to any of my books,=20 TOny Bingales', etc. but perhaps some of the other members can provide=20 some references to wooden spar design practices when drilling through=20 spar caps or girder flanges. Steve Eberhart On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 aabbcc01@infonie.fr wrote: > Hi, >=20 > sorry ,I'm mistake in my writing i mean to say "girder flange" if you wat= ch > in all wooden spars you can to see parts of spruce or douglas pine in up > and down this is called "semelle" in french and girder flange in (english= ) > then every side of the spar have a plywood for to make the box spar what > they call in french "longeron caisson" this plywood is for to give a lim= it > to the elongation of fiber wood (young modulus or linear elasticity) when > the spar is loaded if ever this limit is over the molecular structure > become deteriorated then the cracks or breakage happen. > what is important also is the elasticity modulus (Newton\mm=B2)=20 > the wood have nice characteristics if you compare with metal for me no > metal spar can to vie with a wooden spar because in metal sonner or later > the cracks will appear with tiredness and /or corrosion with wood no > corrosion, good resistance to the tiredness the only problem is to find a > good design and clean wood that why i spoke about the kr2 spar bolts insi= de > the girder flange because for me the resistance become a little weakened = in > this aera (it involves only me) >=20 > Regards > E.DEWET =20 >=20 > ---------- > > De : Micheal Mims > > A : krnet-l@teleport.com > > Objet : Re: KR: spars cracks > > Date=A0: dimanche 21 juin 1998 23:13 > >=20 > > At 07:09 PM 6/21/98 +0200, you wrote: > > >of course the bolt(s) must to go through the grain wood i'm ok but not > at > > >random place and certainly not go through the ginder flange.>>> > >=20 > > What is it that you are calling a "ginder flange"? =20 > > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > > Micheal Mims > > SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > > Irvine Ca > > Fax 949.856.9417 > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >=20 >=20 >=20 - ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:18:20 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: John Denver Accident Report At 05:11 PM 6/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >FuelValveHeads, > <<>> I hate to say it but it sounds like in an effort to make his plane safer he made it much more dangerous. Something to think about guys! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:21:31 EDT From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: OSH Dinner KRNetheads: From Spud over at the DFly list, posted per his request Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Subj: Re: DFLY: Oshkosh Date: 98-06-22 20:08:17 EDT From: DBFNSPUD@aol.com Hello Ron, all the Dragonflyers, Quickie & KR gang, The banquet is scheduled for Friday night downtown at the Hilton (yes, guys there will be a cash bar) as same as last year. sign up and pre-payment will be at the Great Plains aircraft booth. The banquet is open to any & all "homebuilders". More information will be supplied right here and in all the respective newsletters, etc. Please pass the word. Very Best Regards, Spud Spornitz p.s. And yes Ron, we're going to make you the NUMBER # 1 in the "Chow Line" this year just to welcome ya back!!!!!!!! Spudley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:22:42 -0500 From: N4DD Subject: Re: KR: DC from AC dboll wrote: > > I have a Revmaster with Deil case and I can't get any voltage out of it. Can some one help me out. I have a regulator rectifier from gps. I connected the two wires from the case to the ac terminals and ran the DC+ to the bat. Nothing happens. Hellp. > Thanks > Don Don First do you have any voltage out of the stator? I put a new one on my plane and it would not produce any voltage. We checked continuity and found it to not be shorted. Fortunatly for me i am in Dan Diehl's hangar and a replacement was just across the street at his shop. Check these things and give Dan a call. I'm sure he'll make things right if you have defective components. His work no. is (918)299-4445. Jean N4DD ( Progress slowed by motivation & $$$ ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 12:19:03 CST From: "dboll" Subject: Re: KR: DC from AC Thanks Gene, If I understand you correctly, The leads from the case shou= ld not be a open circuit. I will check this and let you know how it wor= ks . If I conect a volt meter to the DC terminal and to ground will i nor= maly get a voltage reading, or do I need to go to the Bat. first. and hoo= k the volt meter from the + terminal to ground ? I must seam kinda in the= dark on this and I guess I am. Thanks Don - ---------- > dboll wrote: > > > > I have a Revmaster with Deil case and I can't get any voltage out of = it. Can > some one help me out. I have a regulator rectifier from gps. I connecte= d the > two wires from the case to the ac terminals and ran the DC+ to the bat. > Nothing happens. Hellp. > > Thanks > > Don > Don > First do you have any voltage out of the stator? I put a new one on my > plane and it would not produce any voltage. We checked continuity and > found it to not be shorted. Fortunatly for me i am in Dan Diehl's hanga= r > and a replacement was just across the street at his shop. Check these > things and give Dan a call. I'm sure he'll make things right if you hav= e > defective components. His work no. is (918)299-4445. > Jean > N4DD ( Progress slowed by motivation & $$$ ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:17:28 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: John Denver Accident Report In a message dated 98-06-22 21:18:11 EDT, you write: << I hate to say it but it sounds like in an effort to make his plane safer he made it much more dangerous. Something to think about guys! >> I think header tanks are just fine. There is no doubt a higher probability of a fire etc. in a crash. But the fuel system is simpler which I am sure has prevented a few crashes. Has anyone done a study of post crash fires in aircraft with wing or header tanks? I would think that after 90 years of flying the feds would have some opinion on this issue. I read NTSB reports quite regularly and the term 'a post crash fires ensued' occurs in all type of crashes. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:41:42 -0700 From: george robertson Subject: Re: KR: spars cracks At 05:59 PM 6/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >aabbcc01@infonie.fr wrote: >> >> hi , kr builders >> >> I have a doubt about the design of the connections of outers to the center >> spars it's very archaic (but it's not the problem) >> What my mind can't accept, it's why they need to make a drilling inside >> this vital organs and specially at the end of it.(where the craks are many >> probability to occur). >> For me this is not a logic and serious design normally, the grinder flange >> must stay undrilled(except for metallic spars)but only some reinforcements >> parts inside the spar must be drilled for to allow the attaching of the two >> parts spar together. >> so, the spar don't become weakened (i have also some interrogations to >> myself about the attaching of landing gear but, this is least problematic >> of this two because easy to solve). >> For my concern i don't like to make a such spar. >> I hope somebody can to discuss really about this problem and they don't try >> to praise only the quality of the actuel spar design . If ever some people >> have experience in design of spar or some documents them suggestions are >> welcome. >> I think is an other road for to increase the performance of kr2s with more >> strong wing reqired for an always more speed airplane. >> and make it more beside the perfection. >> >> E.D >I think I see your point but how else could you build in any diheidral? >Darrin West >mailto:dwest@rose.net >> i know of at least three designs that use the same type of wing attach fittings; the flybaby, the W.A.R. planes and a polish glider. Alex Strojnik (low power laminar aircraft structures pg. 183,186 and low power laminar aircraft technologies pg. 93, 119) talks about this type of wing attach fitting as "typical" but stresses the need to over build due to spar area lost to bolt holes. i know of one kr builder who drilled larger holes then filled them with epoxy so that the bolts "floated" to equalize strain loads. however this increased loss of wood! how about you guys that had the airfoil designed, could you ask the "experts" for their opinion? does anyone know of an "aircraft design text" that talks about wing attach fittings? george ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:14:25 -0700 From: george robertson Subject: Re: KR: [Fwd: LOOKING FOR HELP] At 12:20 PM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: jesch@cyberis.net >Received: (qmail 18325 invoked from network); 22 Jun 1998 15:48:29 -0000 >Received: from ns5.rconnect.com (HELO ns1.rconnect.com) (209.163.30.1) > by qmail.cyberis.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 1998 15:48:29 -0000 >Received: from default (pmsibl1-141.rconnect.com [209.163.2.141]) > by ns1.rconnect.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24028; > Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:40:09 -0500 (CDT) >Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:40:09 -0500 (CDT) >From: aainds@yahoo.com >Subject: LOOKING FOR HELP >Message-Id: >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN charset=US-ASCII > > >I AM LOOKING FOR A TAYLOR MONO PLANE FLYING OR PROJECT >OR A BOWERS FLYBABY > >I WIIL GIVE $100.00 TO THE PERSON OR CLUB THAT LEADS TO THE PURCHASE,OF THE >PLANES OR PROJECT I BUY. > >I KNOW THAT THE TAYLORS ARE HARD TO FIND,BUT WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ONE >BUT FLY BABY WOULD GREAT ALSO > >PLEASE EMAIL OR CALL CALL TOOL FREE 1 888 754 3980 >ASK FOR DAVE > >THANKS IN ADVANCE >DAVE > >dave call jim ylvisaker at (360) 636-0242. he has a flybaby for sale. make the check to eaa chapt. 1111. good luck. george > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:03:53 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: WAF design > does anyone > know of an "aircraft design text" that talks about wing attach fittings? George, "Elements of Sport Airplane Design for the Homebuilder" by P.E. Bird of Vogel Aviation (Los Angeles) has several pages on WAF design, and steps thru the process for you. "Evans Lightplane Designer's Handbook" does the same and has just about anything else you can think of that you'd need to design an airplane as well. The Evans book has reference material that's hard to find in one place. It's available from Wicks or the usual sources. I think there is a government TR on the subject as well, but couldn't tell you the name. Don Reid probably knows. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:02:51 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: WAF design Mark Langford wrote: > > > does anyone > > know of an "aircraft design text" that talks about wing attach fittings? > "Elements of Sport Airplane Design for the Homebuilder" by P.E. Bird of > Vogel Aviation (Los Angeles) has several pages on WAF design, and steps thru > the process for you. "Evans Lightplane Designer's Handbook" does the same > and has just about anything else you can think of that you'd need to design > an airplane as well. The "ultimate" reference that I have is ANC-18, Design Of Wood Aircraft Structures. My copy is from 1951. It is a compilation of all the design studies that preceeded it. The tables of structural properties are as complete as any thing you can possibly find. Drilling holes to attach fittings is covered is extreme detail. There is NOTHING wrong with a properly designed fitting that is attached directly through the spar cap material. Other methods are available. The advantage of the KR style is that it is relatively east to analyze and build. This is the opinion of a licensed professional engineer who has been studying aircraft design and construction for the past five years. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:23:21 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Near Catastrophe-Long In a message dated 98-06-23 01:18:43 EDT, you write: << I think header tanks are just fine. >> Thanks, I needed that. I just finished doing all the inside plumbing (the fuel tank that is-some of us in KY actually have indoor plumbing :-)) over the weekend. Ten gallons of gas in the thing since Sunday......no leaks yet. Off subject but here it is I've moved the airplane from the hangar over the winter into my garage so that I could work on it in a heated environment. Moved the airplane out onto the driveway, put the wings on it and flipped it over using Mike's flip-o-matic (patent pending) in order to Super Fil and Smooth Prime the bottoms of the stub wings. Going to leave the thing in the driveway for exactly one week covered up with a $90.00 UV resistant and waterproof tarp..............ssssoooo what happens. We had the biggest storm in the last couple of years hit last night at 5:45 PM, me in town at the baseball fields, 20 mph driving in 70 mph winds back home, tornado touches down in town, marble size hail. Had to drive under one wire and around probably 6-8 downed trees. I had two neighbors who were braving the elements to keep the thing on the ground. They stayed the entire 45 minutes with one under one wingtip, me under the other one to keep the wings level and one under the tail holding the back of the tarp down. I owe these guys a BIG beer. Man, you talk about having a heart attack!!! Miraculously, no damage. Here it is on the flip-o-matic (patent pending) and resting on it's tail on a piece of rubber and the wings stayed level (inverted). 4:30AM this morning another storm, I slept under the thing until 6:00 AM. OH by the way, there's a tree right next to the driveway also. I don't know if this is an endorsement for the flip-o-matic (patent pending) or just thankful for pure blind luck, but luckily I'm still looking at the end of summer for completion. Sorry about that, just had to share that.........man what a night. Shew-wee Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:39:27 -0800 From: Bruce Toscano Subject: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts What is the opinion of Cadmium Plated vs. Stainless bolts? If you're not buying the bolt set from RR . . . what has most everyone used? Strength being equal . . . Someone give me some input. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:53:53 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: KR: Smooth Prime/Micro Mike didn't you say that you had mixed up a Smooth Prime/micro mix? What did you end up using it to fill? How'd it work? Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:20:58 PDT From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts I bought the set from Wicks and never gave it a second thought. Rich Parker > >What is the opinion of Cadmium Plated vs. Stainless bolts? If you're >not buying the bolt set from RR . . . what has most everyone used? > >Strength being equal . . . > >Someone give me some input. > >Thanks! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:39:11 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Near Catastrophe-Long At 10:23 AM 6/23/98 EDT, you wrote: >I don't know if this is an endorsement for the flip-o-matic (patent pending) or just thankful for pure blind luck, but luckily I'm still looking at the end of summer for completion. > I must add that in no way is the Flip-O-Matic or its designer responsible for any weather (bad or good) that is incurred while in use. :o) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:43:51 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts At 11:20 AM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >I bought the set from Wicks and never gave it a second thought. > >Rich Parker > I think your gona find a high percentage of people bought bolt kits from either Wicks or Aircraft Spruce without thinking twice about it. I have probably bought enough bolts to make 3 or 4 bolt kits! I actually recommend this as you will NEVER buy the right bolts the first time. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:45:32 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Smooth Prime/Micro At 01:53 PM 6/23/98 EDT, you wrote: >Mike didn't you say that you had mixed up a Smooth Prime/micro mix? What did you end up using it to fill? How'd it work? > Yes I did, I filled some weave that was pretty deep as well as some pin holes in the SuperFil. It worked great! It was sandable in about 3 hours. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:54:31 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts Bruce Toscano wrote: > > What is the opinion of Cadmium Plated vs. Stainless bolts? If you're > not buying the bolt set from RR . . . what has most everyone used? I have never seen a strength table on the stainless, I assume they will be similar to plated. I bought a bolt kit from AS & S. Then got a set of small drawers to hold them. When I put together an order, I look in the bins to see what is getting low, then order some more. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:08:27 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts I'll agree with Mike on this. I always tried to keep the bolt bins full of various sizes of AN hardware from A/C Spruce and Wicks so I wouldn't have a week long wait every time I needed something different. I think it was worth doing that way, although I do still have a pretty good supply of bolts left after finishing the plane. Jeff - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:43:51 -0700 Micheal Mims writes: >At 11:20 AM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >>I bought the set from Wicks and never gave it a second thought. >> >>Rich Parker >> > >I think your gona find a high percentage of people bought bolt kits >from >either Wicks or Aircraft Spruce without thinking twice about it. I >have >probably bought enough bolts to make 3 or 4 bolt kits! I actually >recommend >this as you will NEVER buy the right bolts the first time. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:00:17 -0600 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: Fuel systems As Mike said, << I hate to say it but it sounds like in an effort to make his plane >safer he > made it much more dangerous. Something to think about guys! >> In answer to Haris question, I have helped scrape up a number of accident scenes and have NEVER seen a header tank burn. That's not to say that it doesn't havppen, but I have never seen it. That includes a friend that augered his Pitts into the ground. That plane had the engine torn from the mounts, the cockpit ripped in two, but no fire. The only fires I have seen on impact was a friend's Cherokee that had a wing tank torn open while executing an emergency landing on a street. Only one surviver of the four on board. A C-172 that augered in with no survivers, and a couple of twins, one with no survivers and the other with both pilots badly burned, but alive. The theme here is that all of those that burned had wing tanks, but no header tanks. My experience is contrary to the line of thought that seems to exist on the KRNet, but I think others that have been around a number of accident scenes would probably agree. As for the strength of a glass header tank, my Starduster was used for aerobatics up to +7 1/2 and -4 Gs with a 22 gallon glass header tank and never showed any weakness or leaks although it was nearly 20 years old when I sold it. Enough of my opinions, as experience usually doesn't count for much in this forum anyway. Jeff >Has anyone done a study of post crash fires in aircraft with wing or header >tanks? I would think that after 90 years of flying the feds would have some >opinion on this issue. I read NTSB reports quite regularly and the term 'a >post crash fires ensued' occurs in all type of crashes. > > >Haris > - ------- Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net~langford/kjefs.html & http: //www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:37:42 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Fuel systems At 06:00 PM 6/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >In answer to Haris question, I have helped scrape up a number of accident scenes and have NEVER seen a header tank burn. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but I have never seen it. That includes a friend that augered his Pitts into the ground. >>> I have been fortunate enough to only have been to three "bad" accident scenes. I didn't like it! One was a Super Cub that had a stall spin scenario departing the side of a mountain overloaded. It was totally consumed by fire and the pilot died. Two was a Piper Warrior that pan-caked onto the side of a hill (box canyon scenario). The aircraft impacted in a full stall condition and slid backwards about 300 feet down the mountain before stopping. All three occupants got out and the plane then burst into flames from the ruptured tanks. Three was a Beaver that entered a stall spin situation trying to look at a moose and brown bear. All three belly tanks were ruptured but no fire. I guess every crash is different and trying to predict what will happen is impossible. I almost prefer to make the airplane less likely to crash than trying to make it crashable. Maybe this thought process is wrong but it works for me. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:52:54 -0600 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Calling Marty Roberts: Longmont CO Fly-in I was just chatting with someone in Longmont and found out that Marty Roberts is planning on attending a fly-in this weekend. And me nearing completion of my condition inspections fixes, semi-competent in taildraggers and highly desiring a flight in a KR2. What a coincidence!! Is it possible that I might get a ride this weekend? If you are curious, I am at Meadowlake airport (00V) about 10 miles NE of Colorado Springs (104.56 W, 38.95 N, 2073 meters). Ron "Can grovel and beg if I have to" Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:47:18 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Crash Sites At 05:37 PM 6/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >I have been fortunate enough to only have been to three "bad" accident >scenes. I didn't like it! > That really didn't come out right. The key word is "only" , many of my friends have had to clean up a lot more accident sites so I guess I feel fortunate to have only had to do three. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:08:28 -0700 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts Bruce Toscano wrote: > > What is the opinion of Cadmium Plated vs. Stainless bolts? If you're > not buying the bolt set from RR . . . what has most everyone used? > > Strength being equal . . . > - -------------------- My two cents worth: If "strength being equal" I would go with the stainless. Stainless will not corrode. Cad plated will scratch off and can rust. Maybe I am all wet, but I have not seen any stainless aircraft bolts. Or at least stainless bolts with the same strength as the standard aircraft bolts. But then again I bought my bolts from Wicks so you can take this with a grain of salt. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field mr.marvin@worldnet.att.net - ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:19:13 EDT From: KRkip@aol.com Subject: KR: Re:Wing tanks Hello fellow KR neters I recieved an email from Mike Mims about my wing tanks in my KR and he asked if i would share my experiences with them on the KRnet so here goes. First My KR2 is built to plans with only a few mods. I have the retract gear with full clamshell gear doors that cover the wheels like a Super Viking. I use a Revmaster 2100 with a Posa(never had a problem) with a Warnke 52/52 prop.My empty weight is 560lbs. I have a header tank that holds 15gals and wing tanks in both wings that are in the outer wings and they hold 12gals each. They both feed at the same time to a T fitting under the seats and then a facet fuel pump pumps the fuel up to the header tank where it feeds the engine by gravity. I have a switch on the panel that i use to turn the pump on and off with that is also fused so i can overide the pump if it fails. In flight i wait until the header tank is down to at least 1/2 full then i switch on the pump and refill the header tank.I have a sight gage for the fuel level in the header tank so by monitering that i know when the pump needs to be shut off. By only letting the main tank drain to 1/2 before i refill i still have over 1and 1/2 hours of flying left if the pump fails to work. So far i have never had a problem. As for flying with the wing tanks full of fuel, the most i have carried in the wings is 10gals on each side. Because they flow together when the pump is running i have not experienced a out of balence problem. I always put the same amount of fuel in each tank but because of how they are plumbed they will seek the same level after a time. I make it a point to never carry a passenger when i have more than a few gals int he wings because the cg will be too far aft to make for a comfortable flight,but with just myself (200lbs) and a full load of fuel it flys like a dream. On takeoff it takes a little more forward stick to bring up the tail but takoff distance is only a little longer,about 1000ft and it will fly off itself but you could pull it off sooner if you had to. I have also landed with 8gals on each side and 10 in the header tank and othe thatn a longer landing roll the handeling in the pattern did not change. I did this test to see if fuel movement in the tanks would be a problem during the flare but other than causing the tail to settle sooner than usual no problems were encountered. I might add that i usually wheel land my KR as full stall landings usually have a bounce on the KRs with the older retract gear. I hope that this will answer some peoples questions about KR's with wing tanks.Because of mine i made a one stop trip to SNF from northern Maine last year. If i had to do it over again i would do it in a sec.. Richard Parker has graiciously put some pictures of my KR on his web page if anyone would like to see it.I don't have the address her but he posts it at the bottom of his letters to the KRnet If you guys have any more questions feel free to ask and i will try to help anyway i can. KR Kip Kip Lounsbury Lincoln ME w ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:53:00 EDT From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re:Wing tanks In a message dated 98-06-23 23:58:58 EDT, you write: << I recieved an email from Mike Mims about my wing tanks in my KR and he asked if i would share my experiences with them on the KRnet so here goes. >> Kip nice post and Jeff those of us who had "been around" the KR net....................well we won't go into that, but good post. Ex., Five years ago, fellow builder, my home airport, Glass Goose, 3 total hours, engine sputtered over the airport, got it back running, decided the fly somemore, engine quit, tried to make field, pancaked short, survived the impact, needed assistance in putting himself out, died three days later from burnt lungs. Contributing factor (as the FAA said), inadequate fuel flow due too poorly designed fuel system. I'm not going into it because I knew him. Guys don't over complicate these things. As for my header tank, I haven't done it but I know you could stand on the thing. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:29:09 From: * Flesner * Subject: Re: KR: John Denver Accident Report At 05:11 PM 6~22~98 -0500, you wrote: >FuelValveHeads, > >Attached file is the accident report from John Denver's crash in the Long >EZ. Given the recent discussions on KR fuel management, I thought it would >be appropriate to post. This validates my decision to have NO fuel valves >at all. My apologies to those who may have seen it before. > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama Mark, I'm thinking the reg's require a shutoff valve in the fuel system. I may be wrong but you might want to check it out. The only things the report validates for me are: 1. The fuel system (valve) was EXTREMELY poor design 2. The valve was in POOR working order ( using pliers to change settings on the ground and he flew it anyway ?!!) 3. The pilot used POOR judgement and made some bad decissions. (Mirror to check fuel gauges, poor fuel management, not familiar with fuel system, not adding fuel to insure he had enough. - give me a break !!!! ) This accident was TOTALLY preventable and had NOTHING to do with where his tanks were located. My tanks are in the wings but I have a separate shutoff valve for each tank located right between my knees. These two valves (wick's) give me the Left, right, both, off settings I want and the chance of both valves failing at the same time are limited. I doubt if they are any heavier than one massive valve body. Something I have noted over the years is that accidents seldem have a single cause. It is usually several mistakes or events that stack up until you run out of options. I hope I don't make any judgement calls that are that obviously wrong!!! Larry "to each his own, just don't break any rules" Flesner P.S. one more validation: don't hit the water at a high rate of speed!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:43:02 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts Jeffrey E Scott wrote: > it was worth doing that way, although I do still have a pretty good > supply of bolts left after finishing the plane. They aren't leftover, they are waiting for the next project. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:57:48 PDT From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: KR Kip - Kip Lounsbury - Lincoln, ME Kip are you going to Tennesee with me? >Richard Parker has graiciously put some pictures of my KR on his >web page if anyone would like to see it.I don't have the address her but he >posts it at the bottom of his letters to the KRnet Richard E. Parker Jaffrey, NH richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:17:36 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Near Catastrophe-Long At 10:23 AM 6/23/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-23 01:18:43 EDT, you write: > I had two neighbors who were braving the elements >to keep the thing on the ground. They stayed the entire 45 minutes with one >under one wingtip, me under the other one to keep the wings level and one >under the tail holding the back of the tarp down. I owe these guys a BIG >beer. Man, you talk about having a heart attack!!! >Miraculously, no damage. 4:30AM this morning another storm, I slept under the thing until >6:00 AM. OH by the way, there's a tree right next to the driveway also. > > thankful for pure blind luck, but luckily I'm still looking at the end >of summer for completion. > >Sorry about that, just had to share that.........man what a night. > >Shew-wee > >Dana Overall >Richmond, KY >mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ > You're lucky to have such great neighbors..You are very lucly! Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:26:39 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Cad/Stainless Bolts At 02:43 PM 6/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:20 AM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >>I bought the set from Wicks and never gave it a second thought. >> >>Rich Parker >> > >I think your gona find a high percentage of people bought bolt kits from >either Wicks or Aircraft Spruce without thinking twice about it. I have >probably bought enough bolts to make 3 or 4 bolt kits! I actually recommend >this as you will NEVER buy the right bolts the first time. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Given that both bolts have the same physical properties, normally you would use cadium bolt because the cost factor. In areas that could have a lot of moisture, then a stainless bolt should be used. Otherwise it is a matter of choice. Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:45:37 -0500 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: Re:Wing tanks At 07:53 AM 6/24/98 EDT, you wrote: >I >Contributing factor (as the FAA said), inadequate fuel flow due too poorly >designed fuel system. I'm not going into it because I knew him. Guys don't >over complicate these things. >As for my header tank, I haven't done it but I know you could stand on the >thing. > >Dana Overall >Richmond, KY >mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ > How fuel does your header tank hold? My KR header tank(only tank) holds 18.5 gals. and my dad's header tank holds 22.5 gals. KISS Bobby Muse(N122B) mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #103 *****************************