From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 9:16 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #115 krnet-l-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 115 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:32:02 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Re: KR: Re: Bummer... 1/2 Compu-Fire dead Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca or ve3ev@rac.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Micheal Mims > > I get to fly a Revmaster powered Dragonfly now and then and it doesnt > shake at all on one mag. The RPM just drops a bit. This engine has the > dual mag, one drive setup that is standard on most R2100s. If yours is > shaking that bad something could be wrong. > That was my thinking too. My problem is trying to get at the bottom plugs on the Revmaster. I don't know where the plug socket it and all my other sockets don't fit in the hole. Will probably just find another plug and test the leads one at a time with it until I see something odd. - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:35:20 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Re: KR: Re: Bummer... 1/2 Compu-Fire dead Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca or ve3ev@rac.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml - ---------- > From: Bobby Muse > > At 11:35 AM 7/8/98 -0400, you wrote > >> From: Ross Youngblood > > > >You could have come to a bad end. A real bummer there. > > Yada > > > > Cary, > I have a 2100d Revmaster and I when which from Right to Left, I can > barely tell a difference and I'm idling at about 600rpm. Maybe you're > idling too slow? or have bad plugs or ignition wires? > Check wire routing. I have all my left mag wires going to the top > plugs and the right mag wires ging to the bottom plugs. > > The wiring was setup by Revmaster and they used a new set of wires. I'm thinking it may be a pair of bad plugs: one on top and one on the bottom as the shaking is equally real on both sets. Will pull them this weekend and have a looksee. Thanks. - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:00:19 -0400 From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: KR: Glassing while in pane. Email (repy) to cary@storm.ca or ve3ev@rac.ca Web page http://www.storm.ca/~cary/ KR2 area http://www.storm.ca/~cary/kr2.shtml I glassed my left aileron last night, or at least I tried to. I had the fibreglass cut and trimmed to fit, the object clamped for quick application of epoxy, the jig waiting and properly waxed to allow for removal, the brushes, stir sticks and containers waiting, and the 2 part epoxy ready to mix. As I reached for the epoxy, the phone rings. I don't answer it, but wifey does. Its my doctor. You know? The guy who does my annual medical? I have to talk to him in case my planned weekend flight is illegal for me to fly. He wants me to test out his new fax! My medical is ok. I test his fax. Its ok. Back to the epoxy. I start to mix. (outside temperature is around 76 degrees F. Pot time about 7 minutes. The phone rings. Doctor wants to thank me. Asks what I'm doing. Panic is setting in. I tell wifey "No more calls." I start applying the epoxy. That done, I line up the glass and apply to aileron. More application of epoxy. Next, I unclamp the aileron and move it over to the jig. The jig has warped due to the humidity and heat. The aileron won't fit. One hand on the aileron, the other re-jigs the jig. Now I set the aileron into the jig. The phone rings. I don't pay much attention to it for the moment. While clamping the jig I notice that one side doesn't come near the skin of the aileron. The control mount is in the way. I didn't account for it sticking out. I unclamp the jig. As I do so, it springs up and out like a freightned elk, taking the glass with it. I quickly don my rubber gloves and replace the glass which is now starting to get quite warm. Wifey opens the door. Long distance call for me. Important. From the guy who I am flying for on the weekend. Urgent! I utter several oaths. Wifey retreats uttering similar oaths. In a few seconds, the aileron is re-glassed and back in the jig. I reach for the epoxy pot to finish the job. The pot and brush now make an excellant hammer if I need to tenderize meat. Next day, I remove the jig and examine my work. The glass job looks like a topographical map of the Mississipi delta at low tide. I ready the sand paper. Sigh! - - Cary - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:44:37 PDT From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR: Front Deck Questions >Austin, > >I sent out pictures of how I did it to someone to scan, but I cant >recall who I sent them to. Can someone refresh my memory? > >Tom Crawford >tomc@afn.org >Gainesville, FL >N262TC You sent them to Rich Parker and they are up on my page. Richard E. Parker Jaffrey, NH richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:38:19 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: RE: Glassing while in pane. Cary wrote: > looks like a > topographical map of the Mississipi delta at low tide. That was excellent! Don't know what kind of epoxy you're using, but it sure sound vinyl esterish. Maybe you need a prescription for a little Aeropoxy... When I start something like that, I don't answer the phone, the door, or the call to nature. I'm sure you know that now too. Skip the sand paper. You need a reciprocating saw... Mark Langford mailto:langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:48:15 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: elevator trim feedback ServoHeads, You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a good thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried some kind of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. I mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume knob, but the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume to for about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set my stereo volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so I could see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, don't you trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. And if you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I don't think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do exactly whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might save a little complexity and weight not to worry about indication feedback. I hope somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are having, so I can implement it on mine soon... Mark Langford mailto:langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:38:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: elevator trim feedback I think there are two scenarios, 1) trimming for cruise, climb, final, etc. where you are trimming by the seat of your pants. And 2) where you want a preset amount of trim, i.e. takeoff, neutral, etc. THe coolie hat or trim buttons on the control stick are hard to beat. I think the solution we are zeroing in on is a small microprocesser controller that will have both a slave mode that will drive in either direction when a switch is depressed but that also accepts presets. Another feature would be for auto pilot inputs. THis would be for all three axis. It wouldn't be that difficult to directly accept inputs from solid state gyros and let the controller provide the auto pilot function as well. Not counting the cost of the solid state gyros the whole controller could be build for about $100 in components. Add in the cost or the solid state gyros that are used for R/C planes and helicopters and you are still looking at probably less than $300 in components. Assuming we come up with a reasonable design I can do the printed circuit boards and packaging. All that we need is someone who in previous lives has worked as an aircraft instrument systems technician, Electronic engineer, computer designer, electronic packaging engineer, software engineer and all around tinkerer that loves airplanes. Interresting, I just wrote my complete resume in one sentence :-) Seriously though, take a look at my old Aircraft Glass Panel web page at http://www.evansville.net/~newtech THere were a group of us trying to get projects like this going several years ago. Most of the original participants are still around and are just waiting for the right prodding to get started. Rutan's son was even monitoring the old glass panel mail list. If we started out just designing a dedicated trim/auto pilot controller it would be a managable doable project. The only thing I would have to take exception to in the original use described above for the coolie hat trim button is that I am going to use mine as a mouse for the on-board computer with panel mounted display. As you will see in the archives from the old glass panel list I was a big proponent of using a UNIX computer system but NT has probably matured enough to be considered now. A KR-2S witn the new Ashok/Selig wing and a full glass panel is really taking the KR into the 21st Century. Steve (always dreaming) Eberhart On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mark Langford wrote: > ServoHeads, > > You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a good > thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried some kind > of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of > indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. I > mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume knob, but > the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume to for > about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set my stereo > volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so I could > see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, don't you > trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or > somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. And if > you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I don't > think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do exactly > whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might save a > little complexity and weight not to worry about indication feedback. I hope > somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are having, so I > can implement it on mine soon... > > Mark Langford > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > - ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. When once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always be. --Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:04:03 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: elevator trim feedback Mark, I thought that somewhere I saw a requirement for a trim position indicator if you could not see the trim position from the cockpit. If you had your trim tab improperly set for takeoff it could cause a trim stall, no? Without a trim indicator, couldn't you get yourself in trouble blindly trimming out some kind of a problem? I want to be able to see the same trim position every time for solo, dual, solo with full fuel, dual with full fuel. I'll be marking trim settings and noting differences as an indication of CG changes or problems. I'm just that an*l about trimming. Anyway, I like the mechanical trim position indicator because of the backup service. If that cheapo servo motor burns out, the gears can still be moved manually with enough force. That brings to mind another point. You really don't want to use a coreless motor servo for this task. Generally, they turn very smoothly, and that could be too smooth to hold position with no voltage to the motor as the usual R/C operation will provide. So the cheaper the servo, the better for this application. I would think that a ball-bearing output shaft would be nice though for durability. I really like the 1/4 Mega by Hitec. Extra large servo gears, arms, everything. It's hard to turn the gears by hand too. Huge 249 in/oz torque. I use one on my radio-control lawnmower to steer the front wheel. Pics coming someday. - -Tom Mark Langford wrote: > ServoHeads, > > You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a good > thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried some kind > of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of > indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. I > mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume knob, but > the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume to for > about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set my stereo > volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so I could > see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, don't you > trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or > somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. And if > you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I don't > think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do exactly > whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might save a > little complexity and weight not to worry about indication feedback. I hope > somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are having, so I > can implement it on mine soon... > > Mark Langford > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:13:22 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: elevator trim feedback Steve, I just want to save money by not buying the $169 trim system. You're talking about inventing something new and marketing it, right? - -Tom Steven A Eberhart wrote: > I think there are two scenarios, 1) trimming for cruise, climb, final, > etc. where you are trimming by the seat of your pants. And 2) where you > want a preset amount of trim, i.e. takeoff, neutral, etc. THe coolie > hat or trim buttons on the control stick are hard to beat. I think the > solution we are zeroing in on is a small microprocesser controller that > will have both a slave mode that will drive in either direction when a > switch is depressed but that also accepts presets. Another feature would > be for auto pilot inputs. THis would be for all three axis. It wouldn't > be that difficult to directly accept inputs from solid state gyros and > let the controller provide the auto pilot function as well. Not counting > the cost of the solid state gyros the whole controller could be build for > about $100 in components. Add in the cost or the solid state gyros that > are used for R/C planes and helicopters and you are still looking at > probably less than $300 in components. Assuming we come up with a > reasonable design I can do the printed circuit boards and packaging. > > All that we need is someone who in previous lives has worked as an > aircraft instrument systems technician, Electronic engineer, computer > designer, electronic packaging engineer, software engineer and all around > tinkerer that loves airplanes. Interresting, I just wrote my complete > resume in one sentence :-) > > Seriously though, take a look at my old Aircraft Glass Panel web page at > http://www.evansville.net/~newtech THere were a group of us trying to > get projects like this going several years ago. Most of the original > participants are still around and are just waiting for the right prodding > to get started. Rutan's son was even monitoring the old glass panel mail > list. > > If we started out just designing a dedicated trim/auto pilot controller > it would be a managable doable project. > > The only thing I would have to take exception to in the original use > described above for the coolie hat trim button is that I am going to use > mine as a mouse for the on-board computer with panel mounted display. As > you will see in the archives from the old glass panel list I was a big > proponent of using a UNIX computer system but NT has probably matured > enough to be considered now. > > A KR-2S witn the new Ashok/Selig wing and a full glass panel is really > taking the KR into the 21st Century. > > Steve (always dreaming) Eberhart > > On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mark Langford wrote: > > > ServoHeads, > > > > You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a good > > thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried some kind > > of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of > > indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. I > > mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume knob, but > > the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume to for > > about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set my stereo > > volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so I could > > see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, don't you > > trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or > > somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. And if > > you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I don't > > think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do exactly > > whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might save a > > little complexity and weight not to worry about indication feedback. I hope > > somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are having, so I > > can implement it on mine soon... > > > > Mark Langford > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > http://www.newtech.com/nlf > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > easier to get. > > When once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes > turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always be. > --Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:33:47 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: RE: KR: elevator trim feedback Tom Andersen wrote: > Without a trim > indicator, couldn't you get yourself in trouble blindly > trimming out some kind > of a problem? I want to be able to see the same trim > position every time for > solo, dual, solo with full fuel, dual with full fuel. I'll > be marking trim > settings and noting differences as an indication of CG > changes or problems. Tom, Of course, you guys are right, especially if it can be done inexpensively. Just let me know the final design so I can have it too. And it sounds like you guys are closing in on an elegant solution, like the knob on the dash thing. Let me know when it's cooked... mailto:langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:52:16 EDT From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: insurance (pretty long) Rick: I think the idea is more than worthwhile - it is something long overdue. I commend you for your efforts and enthusiasm and I definitely am willing to participate. Count me in! I like the idea of a checklist for the tech counsellor to use. The cost issue is something that will need to be sorted out but i believe the benefits attained would be much greater than the cost incurred. The training in type alone could easily save one future accident. Bob Lasecki Enthused in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:05:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: elevator trim feedback On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Tom Andersen wrote: > Steve, > I just want to save money by not buying the $169 trim system. You're talking > about inventing something new and marketing it, right? > -Tom NO NO NO NO NO, been there done that. It doesn't work mixing your avocation with your vocation, NO NO NO NO. Thanks for the reality check. THe mind just started running away with what could be done. What might make sense would be to look at using a commercial single board computer that would accept analog and digital inputs and outputs. Would be nice if it directly supported a real time operating system that could be stored in non volitile memory or a flash card or something so that we could develop the software and people could use an off the shelf computer board for their system. Size should be around 2" x 6" x 10". Just thinking out loud. I still like the idea of being able to easily support multi axis trim and get an auto pilot by simply adding the cheap solid state gyros. With a little thought it could also monitor engine functins and drive an annunciator display. Steve > > Steven A Eberhart wrote: > > > I think there are two scenarios, 1) trimming for cruise, climb, final, > > etc. where you are trimming by the seat of your pants. And 2) where you > > want a preset amount of trim, i.e. takeoff, neutral, etc. THe coolie > > hat or trim buttons on the control stick are hard to beat. I think the > > solution we are zeroing in on is a small microprocesser controller that > > will have both a slave mode that will drive in either direction when a > > switch is depressed but that also accepts presets. Another feature would > > be for auto pilot inputs. THis would be for all three axis. It wouldn't > > be that difficult to directly accept inputs from solid state gyros and > > let the controller provide the auto pilot function as well. Not counting > > the cost of the solid state gyros the whole controller could be build for > > about $100 in components. Add in the cost or the solid state gyros that > > are used for R/C planes and helicopters and you are still looking at > > probably less than $300 in components. Assuming we come up with a > > reasonable design I can do the printed circuit boards and packaging. > > > > All that we need is someone who in previous lives has worked as an > > aircraft instrument systems technician, Electronic engineer, computer > > designer, electronic packaging engineer, software engineer and all around > > tinkerer that loves airplanes. Interresting, I just wrote my complete > > resume in one sentence :-) > > > > Seriously though, take a look at my old Aircraft Glass Panel web page at > > http://www.evansville.net/~newtech THere were a group of us trying to > > get projects like this going several years ago. Most of the original > > participants are still around and are just waiting for the right prodding > > to get started. Rutan's son was even monitoring the old glass panel mail > > list. > > > > If we started out just designing a dedicated trim/auto pilot controller > > it would be a managable doable project. > > > > The only thing I would have to take exception to in the original use > > described above for the coolie hat trim button is that I am going to use > > mine as a mouse for the on-board computer with panel mounted display. As > > you will see in the archives from the old glass panel list I was a big > > proponent of using a UNIX computer system but NT has probably matured > > enough to be considered now. > > > > A KR-2S witn the new Ashok/Selig wing and a full glass panel is really > > taking the KR into the 21st Century. > > > > Steve (always dreaming) Eberhart > > > > On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mark Langford wrote: > > > > > ServoHeads, > > > > > > You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a good > > > thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried some kind > > > of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of > > > indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. I > > > mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume knob, but > > > the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume to for > > > about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set my stereo > > > volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so I could > > > see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, don't you > > > trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or > > > somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. And if > > > you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I don't > > > think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do exactly > > > whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might save a > > > little complexity and weight not to worry about indication feedback. I hope > > > somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are having, so I > > > can implement it on mine soon... > > > > > > Mark Langford > > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > > KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > http://www.newtech.com/nlf > > > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > > easier to get. > > > > When once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes > > turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always be. > > --Leonardo da Vinci > > > > - ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. When once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always be. --Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:37:33 -0400 From: "Alan Moat" Subject: Re: KR: Count ME In, Purchased the Spruce old mailing list people dont die they just fly away. :) Alan M. - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 12:48 AM Subject: Re: KR: Count ME In, Purchased the Spruce >At 11:24 PM 7/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Hello Haris >> >>Glad to here that i'm not the only one just getting started. Some of the >>fellow are almost done. I didn't want the mailing list to die with them. > > >Humm,...I am not sure how I like " I didn't want the mailing list to die >with them" ! Nobody said anything about having to die! :o) >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,.. Filling and sanding now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:39:10 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Count ME In, Purchased the Spruce Hi, I live in Manhattan Beach, CA which is near LAX (10 miles SW of LA downtown). I plan to build my KR2S at Chino Airport. I am going to get 1/2 a hangar there. It will be next one to Mike Mims hangar. There will be a wire screen seperating our hangars. It will be nice to have him around for advice. I do not have a time table but hopefully I'll be able to put 20 hours/week on average on the construction. I do not plan to make any major changes and plan to use as much premolded parts as possible so progress should be quick. Haris Ashraf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:45:44 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: RC Servo trim motor In a message dated 98-07-09 07:05:32 EDT, you write: << There's another unit, the BTA from Israeli developers who actually mention in their ads it has been used in experimental aircraft. It's much more sophisticated and has three-axis control with solid state gyros. It's cost is about $350. I think the PAL system on the ailerons only would be nice as a wing leveler, and with the elevator trim connected, you could fly even a regular KR-tail hands off! -Tom >> Is this unit advertised (BTA) regurlarly in RCM? Haris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:02:47 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Elevator size and pitch sensitivity. In a message dated 98-07-09 07:20:36 EDT, you write: << Haris, No doubt a longer tail by about 14" would be good on the KR-2S. Unfortuanately, I didn't understand all these facts when I started my plane, I was trying to be a good little builder and follow the plans exactly. With the 14" extension, a KR-2S would be 28 inches longer in the tail and about 5-6" longer in the nose. Many threads have been written about reducing elevator travel, but the problem there seems to be getting sufficient control at lower speeds. There is more authority than is necessary on such a short-coupled airplane. It's a stretch to compare the KR to the Cherokee, since the Cherokee has three times the weight and a thicker airfoil. Look at the tail on the Teenie Two and the new Sonex. Granted, the Teenie two has only 59 sq ft of wing, but the elevator is very small, probably only 30-40% of the size of the KR-2. -Tom >> My point was that the problem does not lie in tail size or elevator travel. It lies in lack of pitch damping. The reason I mentioned the Cherokee is that it has the same tail volume as KR. Tail volume is dimensionless quantity depending upon the geometry of the airplane not its size and weight. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:08:36 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: RC Servo trim motor Haris, See RCM page 25, May 1998. It's $300 through their distributor. They have run a 1/5 page ad for many years in RCM but I don't see one here. See 11/94 RCM for the full review. - -Tom HAshraf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-09 07:05:32 EDT, you write: > > << There's another unit, the BTA from Israeli developers who actually mention > in > their ads it has been used in experimental aircraft. It's much more > sophisticated and has three-axis control with solid state gyros. It's cost > is > about $350. > I think the PAL system on the ailerons only would be nice as a wing leveler, > and with the elevator trim connected, you could fly even a regular KR-tail > hands off! > -Tom >> > > Is this unit advertised (BTA) regurlarly in RCM? > > Haris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:11:52 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: Re: KR: Count ME In, Purchased the Spruce Haris, If you really want to build fast, get yourself a set of wing skins from Dan Diehle. I did, and it will save hundreds of hours of labor, plus produce a set of wings unmatchable with standard foam and glass construction. They're 20lbs lighter and only $1500. If you still want to do it the old-fashioned way, I have a lot of foam for sale:). - -Tom HAshraf@aol.com wrote: > Hi, > > I live in Manhattan Beach, CA which is near LAX (10 miles SW of LA downtown). > I plan to build my KR2S at Chino Airport. I am going to get 1/2 a hangar > there. It will be next one to Mike Mims hangar. There will be a wire screen > seperating our hangars. It will be nice to have him around for advice. > > I do not have a time table but hopefully I'll be able to put 20 hours/week on > average on the construction. I do not plan to make any major changes and plan > to use as much premolded parts as possible so progress should be quick. > > Haris Ashraf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:21:45 -0400 From: Tom Andersen Subject: KR: DT-100 pictures on my site! Netters, To see the direct drive turbo Subaru EA-81 produced by Air-Ryder for Bob Lasecki, go to my second web page at http://home.att.net/~tomkr2s/dt100.htm. Bob furnished these pictures today, and even better ones are on their way. Thanks Bob! Enjoy your 100HP 209lb all up, turbo intercooled, fire-breathin, dragon-slayin, haul-ass SOOOOOOB! 200mph easy! 100hp all the way up to 19,000ft!!! Starter, 40amp alternator, built-in adrenaline injection. - -Tom I can't sleep now... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:23:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Elevator size and pitch sensitivity. On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 HAshraf@aol.com wrote: [snip] > My point was that the problem does not lie in tail size or elevator travel. It > lies in lack of pitch damping. > > The reason I mentioned the Cherokee is that it has the same tail volume as KR. > Tail volume is dimensionless quantity depending upon the geometry of the > airplane not its size and weight. > If I have my airplanes correct the Cherokee's have a full flying stabilator rather than a horizontal stabilizer and elevator. for the same stability you can reduce the size of a stabilator by 10% over a stab/elevator combination. So, if both have the same tail volume the stabilator has greater stability in pitch. Steve Eberhart - ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. When once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always be. --Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:28:22 -0700 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: DT-100 pictures on my site! ooooo I like the looks of that. Now you got me going John F Esch KR-2SSW Salem, OR Tom Andersen wrote: > Netters, > To see the direct drive turbo Subaru EA-81 produced by Air-Ryder for > Bob > Lasecki, go to my second web page at > http://home.att.net/~tomkr2s/dt100.htm. Bob furnished these pictures > today, and even better ones are on their way. Thanks Bob! Enjoy your > > 100HP 209lb all up, turbo intercooled, fire-breathin, dragon-slayin, > haul-ass SOOOOOOB! 200mph easy! 100hp all the way up to 19,000ft!!! > Starter, 40amp alternator, built-in adrenaline injection. > -Tom > I can't sleep now... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:32:31 -0700 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: elevator trim feedback Just had a thought and have one of these. How about a R/C gear retract servo. They are hard to move by hand when no power is applied, but that might be a bad idea though. I think they have a 108 degree of travel too and loads of torgue. John F. Esch Salem, OR Tom Andersen wrote: > Mark, > I thought that somewhere I saw a requirement for a trim position > indicator if > you could not see the trim position from the cockpit. If you had your > trim tab > improperly set for takeoff it could cause a trim stall, no? Without a > trim > indicator, couldn't you get yourself in trouble blindly trimming out > some kind > of a problem? I want to be able to see the same trim position every > time for > solo, dual, solo with full fuel, dual with full fuel. I'll be marking > trim > settings and noting differences as an indication of CG changes or > problems. I'm > just that an*l about trimming. > Anyway, I like the mechanical trim position indicator because of the > backup > service. If that cheapo servo motor burns out, the gears can still be > moved > manually with enough force. That brings to mind another point. You > really > don't want to use a coreless motor servo for this task. Generally, > they turn > very smoothly, and that could be too smooth to hold position with no > voltage to > the motor as the usual R/C operation will provide. So the cheaper the > servo, > the better for this application. I would think that a ball-bearing > output shaft > would be nice though for durability. I really like the 1/4 Mega by > Hitec. > Extra large servo gears, arms, everything. It's hard to turn the > gears by hand > too. Huge 249 in/oz torque. I use one on my radio-control lawnmower > to steer > the front wheel. Pics coming someday. > -Tom > > Mark Langford wrote: > > > ServoHeads, > > > > You guys are gonna hate this, but it simplifies things a bit ( a > good > > thing). When Jim Hill and I visited Troy Petteway he had buried > some kind > > of Hi-tec servo in his h/s for his elevator. The subject came up of > > > indication of where it was set and we had the following discussion. > I > > mentioned that my stupid Pioneer CD player in my car has a volume > knob, but > > the display shows the the level (0-25) that you just set the volume > to for > > about 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't use numbers to set > my stereo > > volume, I use my ears, and I wish that display wouldn't be there so > I could > > see what cool station is playing such fine music. My point is, > don't you > > trim by feel? Granted, it would be nice to set it to nuetral (or > > somewhere ) for takeoff, but that should be part of the preflight. > And if > > you screw up and forget, is it gonna keep you from taking off? I > don't > > think so. Not to put a damper on things. I may very well do > exactly > > whatever you guys decide to do (indications and all) but it might > save a > > little complexity and weight not to worry about indication > feedback. I hope > > somebody publishes the end result of this debate you guys are > having, so I > > can implement it on mine soon... > > > > Mark Langford > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:14:07 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: RC Servo trim motor In a message dated 98-07-09 22:09:33 EDT, you write: << Haris, See RCM page 25, May 1998. It's $300 through their distributor. They have run a 1/5 page ad for many years in RCM but I don't see one here. See 11/94 RCM for the full review. -Tom >> Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:16:17 EDT From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Count ME In, Purchased the Spruce In a message dated 98-07-09 22:12:46 EDT, you write: << Haris, If you really want to build fast, get yourself a set of wing skins from Dan Diehle. I did, and it will save hundreds of hours of labor, plus produce a set of wings unmatchable with standard foam and glass construction. They're 20lbs lighter and only $1500. If you still want to do it the old-fashioned way, I have a lot of foam for sale:). -Tom >> I seriously thinking of going with Dan Diehl of RR for wing skins. Hopefully, by the time I will need them someone would be selling skins for AS 5045:-) Haris ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #115 *****************************