From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com] Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 5:51 PM To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #163 krnet-l-digest Monday, October 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 19:58:27 -0700 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions Dean How were the T-88 joints? John F. Esch KR-2S Salem, OR Dean R. Collette, MD wrote: > >> One thing I have wondered about for those using West Systems on the > > wings, or other kinds... > >I stayed away from West Systems mostly because to this day it is not > >allowed to be used in the construction of composite planes such as > the > >LongEZ, Dragonfly, Quickie, etc. (got to be something there) > Secondly > >because I had used safe-t-poxy in the past and really liked and I > have a > >pump that is calibrated for it. Oh well enough on West Systems! :o) > > Here's a "for what it's worth." > I never understood the anti - West Systems thing until recently when I > had > the unique opportunity to disassemble a KR. This project was > constructed > with T-88 and West Systems for wood joints and there were some lay-ups > done > with the West System and some done with Safe-T-poxy (Schizoid builder > ??) > > Bottom line - The West Systems lay-ups were no where as strong as the > others. The wood joints basically fell apart and in several places I > could > pull the fiberglass layers apart. The fiberglass that was done with > the > safe-t-poxy was fine. Where the builder used flox to join wood pieces > - now > those were stout. > > Keep in mind that the plane got to meet my Sawzall because of poor > workmanship throughout - So I really can't tell you that it was the > epoxy > and not the builder. But, there was a couple of gallons of West epoxy > that > was included in the deal - I tossed 'em. > > Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:30:17 -0500 From: "Dean R. Collette, MD" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions > How were the T-88 joints? > > Jim Hayward > Rapid City, SD > I was actually, surprised at how well the T-88 joints worked out. I was able to cut out several pieces of wood and then break the T-88 joint. It's just like they say - the wood lets go before the glue line does. Where things were gusseted - MUCH stronger (makes sense.) So I guess all of this just begs the question - "What would I change or do differently knowing what I know now?" I would add a little flox to the aft portion of the fuselage where the stern post is at - kind of small fillet along the inside of the stern post - especially where the longerons meet. I would also use "too much glue" (so that it squishes out between the pieces being joined, and then wipe off (sand off) the excess. (I did find a couple of joints that were inadequately glued.) This guy did the scarf joints right. They were as strong as the rest of the plywood. I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have no idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in the aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment (enough to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft cross members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, when I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how large the force was. Also, I would add a little flox to the firewall where it meets the longerons. This project had a bad joint here. A little flox (not a lot) would have gone a long way to protecting this crucial area. Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:34:14 -0600 From: Wayne and Kathy Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions Dean R. Collette, MD wrote: > > >> One thing I have wondered about for those using West Systems on the > wings, or other kinds... > >I stayed away from West Systems mostly because to this day it is not > >allowed to be used in the construction of composite planes such as the > >LongEZ, Dragonfly, Quickie, etc. (got to be something there) Secondly > >because I had used safe-t-poxy in the past and really liked and I have a > >pump that is calibrated for it. Oh well enough on West Systems! :o) > > Here's a "for what it's worth." > I never understood the anti - West Systems thing until recently when I had > the unique opportunity to disassemble a KR. This project was constructed > with T-88 and West Systems for wood joints and there were some lay-ups done > with the West System and some done with Safe-T-poxy (Schizoid builder ??) > > Bottom line - The West Systems lay-ups were no where as strong as the > others. The wood joints basically fell apart and in several places I could > pull the fiberglass layers apart. The fiberglass that was done with the > safe-t-poxy was fine. Where the builder used flox to join wood pieces - now > those were stout. > > Keep in mind that the plane got to meet my Sawzall because of poor > workmanship throughout - So I really can't tell you that it was the epoxy > and not the builder. But, there was a couple of gallons of West epoxy that > was included in the deal - I tossed 'em. > > Dean My KR-2 Is done completely in West System and is fine. When I first started the project I was told that I should not use this product as it was not "certified" for aircraft use. However no one could tell me what was wrong with the product. None or the boats I built with it ever fell apart and one ( a26ft.sailboat ) was run into the rocks. The boat was destroid but the wreckage should no signs of failure. I've done some home-made backyard tests so I don't know how good these are, but it was inferior inonly one area. Under high temperatures it would bend and take a set more readily than others, but the strength was good. Because of the wood spars in the wings I think West is O.K. Wayne Tokarz ktokarz@incentre.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:01:53 -0500 From: "Dean R. Collette, MD" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions >> Dean >My KR-2 Is done completely in West System and is fine. When I first >started the project I was told that I should not use this product as it >was not "certified" for aircraft use. However no one could tell me what >was wrong with the product. None or the boats I built with it ever fell >apart and one ( a26ft.sailboat ) was run into the rocks. The boat was >destroid but the wreckage should no signs of failure. I've done some >home-made backyard tests so I don't know how good these are, but it was >inferior inonly one area. Under high temperatures it would bend and take >a set more readily than others, but the strength was good. Because of >the wood spars in the wings I think West is O.K. > > Wayne Tokarz Like I said before, This entire project had to be destroyed due to poor workmanship - The guy's fiberglassing technique may have changed, he could have cured things differently . . . Hard to say. I'm just reporting what I found - no endorsements, or product bashing. To give you a clue about this project - If you lifted the plane off of the gear legs by the firewall, you would get to hear this sickly "clunk" sound. That was the main spar falling down to the lower longerons. And that was just the start of it. Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:15:14 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Cowling Cowling heads, I am ready to start carving a cowling for the stump puller. I have an interesting dilemma in that I have an engine that is wider than the firewall! So my plan was to build a cowling ala T-18. You can go to the URL below to see a T18. Basically the cheeks are open at the rear to allow cooling air to exit. This seems to be my only option short of making a coke bottle shaped cowling and I think that would look gross! Any thoughts on this idea? http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/t182.jpg PS I already have the nose bowl (forward 1/3 of cowling) you see in the picture. I need to build the rest from scratch. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 04:50:48 -0400 From: "Dale Baldwin" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions - ---------- > From: Dean R. Collette, MD > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions > Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 11:30 PM > > > > How were the T-88 joints? > > > > Jim Hayward > > Rapid City, SD > > > > I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a > picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate > skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have no > idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are > skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in the > aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was > started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment (enough > to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft cross > members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, when > I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how large > the force was. > a long way to protecting this crucial area. > > Dean Dr. Collette. The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the staples wouldn't drive home. Dale Baldwin, KR-2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 06:06:15 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Skinning (was Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question) At 04:50 AM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the staples wouldn't drive home. > >Dale Baldwin, KR-2 > I also skinned the boat after building a spruce skeleton and I agree, applying enough pressure was the biggest problem. I thickened my t88 with a little flox to keep it all from running off during the long process. I ended up stapling and then going over all the staples with a tack hammer to drive them home. This of course put a dent in the plywood that I later filled with micro. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:32:40 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: Skinning (was Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question) If you need to fill a little gap somewhere, I wait until the end of a glueing session when the T-88 is a little thicker - helps keeps it from running. I absolutely attest to the strength of T-88. I'm building a TEAM Eros ( while still needing to finish repainting my KR-1) - about a thousand wood pieces in the ribs alone- and the wood always breaks somewhere other than at the joint on a test piece. Ed Janssen >I also skinned the boat after building a spruce skeleton and I agree, >applying enough pressure was the biggest problem. I thickened my t88 with a >little flox to keep it all from running off during the long process. I >ended up stapling and then going over all the staples with a tack hammer to >drive them home. This of course put a dent in the plywood that I later >filled with micro. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:22:04 +0200 From: "Stefan den Boer" Subject: KR: Flaps Hallo over there I am almost so far that we will start on the flaps. On the drawings we can't find how manny travel the have. Is sambody over ther who is having the degrees and steps of the flaps.(* we are building the kr 2) How many deegrees is having the first step ? How many the second and the third. Is there maby also a fourt step. Thanks a lot Stef den boer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:42:20 -0400 From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins Has anyone tried using an electric stapler to install the skins. They arn't very expensive and i would think that it would simplify the process. WD At 04:50 AM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >---------- >> From: Dean R. Collette, MD >> To: krnet-l@teleport.com >> Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions >> Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 11:30 PM >> >> >> > How were the T-88 joints? >> > >> > Jim Hayward >> > Rapid City, SD >> > > >> I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a >> picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate >> skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have >no >> idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are >> skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in >the >> aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was >> started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment >(enough >> to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft >cross >> members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, >when >> I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how >large >> the force was. >> a long way to protecting this crucial area. >> >> Dean > > >Dr. Collette. > >The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with >a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the >staples wouldn't drive home. > >Dale Baldwin, KR-2 > Wayne DeLisle Sr. Email:support@sestar.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:19:53 EDT From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Flaps I have the standard flap handle from Rand Robinson as shown on the plans for the -2S which has three steps of 15 degrees each. Bob Lasecki Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:59:59 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Cowling Micheal Mims wrote: > I have an interesting dilemma in that I have an engine that is wider than > the firewall! So my plan was to build a cowling ala T-18. You can go to > the URL below to see a T18. Basically the cheeks are open at the rear to > allow cooling air to exit. This seems to be my only option short of making > a coke bottle shaped cowling and I think that would look gross! Any thoughts > on this idea? The O-200 that I will soon be installing has the same problem. The firewall size is really a bit to small for "real" aircraft engines. I was planning almost the same thing, except that I will add foam and glass above and below the cheek exits so the the fuselage sides will be built up to fit the engine/cowling better. I have seen at least one web site where someone did this to the bottom of the fuselage. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:56:25 EDT From: JEHayward@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins In a message dated 10/18/98 8:31:29 AM Mountain Daylight Time, support@sestar.net writes: << Has anyone tried using an electric stapler to install the skins. They arn't very expensive and i would think that it would simplify the process. WD >> That was the ONLY way to go for me! Jim Hayward Rapid City, SD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:33:37 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins When stapleing skins, I try to bear down firmly on the skin to allow a little "squish" time (a second or so) before firing the staple. Working time for T-88 is supposed to be about 1/2 hour, so when it starts to thicken up, it seems to help ensure good close contact between the skin and the spruce. Ed Janssen ><< Has anyone tried using an electric stapler to install the skins. > They arn't very expensive and i would think that it would simplify the >process. > > WD >> > > That was the ONLY way to go for me! > > Jim Hayward > Rapid City, SD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:51:52 EDT From: Mdoby34371@aol.com Subject: KR: one piece wing Anyone out there have any comments one building a one piece wing? It seems that once you put it all together there's no practical way to get it apart easily, and once you move it to the airport why would you need to? I think the KR2S is a great looking plane and will be just the thing for me and my son to get around in. My wife doesn't want to fly in anything smaller than a 737! Also, any input on using a twin-cam Saturn engine? I've got one and just love it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:33:33 -0600 From: Henning Mortensen Subject: KR: KR3 Hello all, Well I did it. I went and picked up my 1/2 finished kr2. This plane was = started in 1976 so it is about time the plane got finished. Interesting = thing is, the plans include a brochure for the kr3, an amphibious kr2. = Anyone now what became of this plane, were any built, plans ever = offered? Does anyone know of plans to convert an existing kr2 to kr2s. Have the = 2s plans but figure others must have done the retrofit.=20 Also any ideas of what to do with the original retract gear after I get = the deihl (sp?) gear. I don't like the drum brakes or the retract. Maybe = my son gets a kick-ass go-kart (hyphens galore). Henning Mortensen mailto> mortensen@cableregina.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:44:48 -0400 (EDT) From: jeroffey@tir.com (jeroffey) Subject: KR: West System and skins Dean, I am assuming you cut up the project you picked up at my place. You had a great oppertunity to put the West System issue to bed here and I'm glad you did. I glued all my side trusses with the West System and did a couple of distructive test pieces to satisfy myself that the stuff was acceptible. After your visit I had some doubts and it's always been my philosophy that "when in doubt, throw it out". I switched to T88 for the ply wood and set the trusses down on the ply with T88 coating both sides of the joint and applied much weight to the trusses with some steel tubing and other asorted "stuff". The result was enough epoxy "squished" out of the joints to form a nice fillet "weld" around all the spruce. I am now fitting the tail post to the sides and there is tremendous pressure at the tail post when the sides are bent to fit. There is no sign of of distress in any of the West System joints in the spruce and I'm happy with the trusses as they are. As this is the recomended procedure, I am not overly concerend with the integrity of the structure as there is plenty of joint area to support the stress. To summarize, I am finnished with West System just because of the doubt and the T88 is proven material. By the way, I widened the side to tail post joint so the END of the tail post measures 1 3/4 as suggested by Mike Mims and I like the results. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:08:01 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: one piece wing At 12:51 PM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote: >Anyone out there have any comments one building a one piece wing? Wished I had one! The three piece wing of the KR has become somewhat of a problem now that the wing attach fittings are over $500! The weight of the WAFs and all those bolts is another motivator. Besides the funky dihedral break at the stub is very bad aerodynamically. >It seems that once you put it all together there's no practical way to get it >apart easily, and once you move it to the airport why would you need to? Agreed 2000%! Besides I don't have a garage to bring it home to anyway. I did not cut my outer wings off for this reason. The airplane is at that airport and it will STAY at the airport. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:39:07 -0600 From: Adrian Carter Subject: Re: KR: Flaps Stefan den Boer wrote: > > Hallo over there > I am almost so far that we will start on the flaps. On the drawings we > can't find how manny travel the have. Is sambody over ther who is having > the degrees and steps of the flaps.(* we are building the kr 2) > How many deegrees is having the first step ? > How many the second and the third. > Is there maby also a fourt step. > Thanks a lot > Stef den boer Hi Stef, Nope, only 3 steps, 15 deg, 30 deg, and 45 deg. Do a mock up of the flap on the wing with a piece of cardboard and see how far you are from the surface. Don't know what kind of landing gear your using but, if it is on a retract it can place the flap pretty close to the ground. Good Luck! - -- Adrian VE6AFY Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:10:14 -0500 From: N4DD Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions Dean R. Collette, MD wrote: > > > How were the T-88 joints? > > > > Jim Hayward > > Rapid City, SD > > > > I was actually, surprised at how well the T-88 joints worked out. I was able > to cut out several pieces of wood and then break the T-88 joint. It's just > like they say - the wood lets go before the glue line does. Where things > were gusseted - MUCH stronger (makes sense.) > > So I guess all of this just begs the question - "What would I change or do > differently knowing what I know now?" I would add a little flox to the aft > portion of the fuselage where the stern post is at - kind of small fillet > along the inside of the stern post - especially where the longerons meet. I > would also use "too much glue" (so that it squishes out between the pieces > being joined, and then wipe off (sand off) the excess. (I did find a couple > of joints that were inadequately glued.) > > This guy did the scarf joints right. They were as strong as the rest of the > plywood. > > I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a > picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate > skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have no > idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are > skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in the > aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was > started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment (enough > to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft cross > members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, when > I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how large > the force was. > > Also, I would add a little flox to the firewall where it meets the > longerons. This project had a bad joint here. A little flox (not a lot) > would have gone a long way to protecting this crucial area. > > Dean I thought I might add to this springing wood thread. Dan Diehl is now into restoring old wooden boats. He ics currently restoring a 1958 Criss Craft. When he unscrewed the side planking it went almost flat. Still springy after 40 years!!!!!!! Jean N4DD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:02:19 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR: KR3 The KR-3 prototype was indeed essentially finished but crashed on initial (I think) takeoff and was destroyed. Can't remember what they think the cause was. I have a picture of it with Ken Rand looking over the crumpled wreckage. Don't think the amphib idea was pursued much after that. Ed Janssen n.At 11:33 AM 10/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Well I did it. I went and picked up my 1/2 finished kr2. This plane was started in 1976 so it is about time the plane got finished. Interesting thing is, the plans include a brochure for the kr3, an amphibious kr2. Anyone now what became of this plane, were any built, plans ever offered? > > >Henning Mortensen > >mailto> mortensen@cableregina.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:21:51 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: KR3 At 10:02 PM 10/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >The KR-3 prototype was indeed essentially finished but crashed on initial (I think) takeoff and was destroyed. Can't remember what they think the cause was. I have a picture of it with Ken Rand looking over the crumpled wreckage. Don't think the amphib idea was pursued much after that. > Slow speed control reversal or so they said! Sounds like a stall to me. :o) I don't know if it was rebuilt or if the test performed on water were done before the crash but there were big concerns that the engine was just not powerful enough. I have seen the same picture you mention and it is amazing the pilot (pilots) survived! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:57:14 EDT From: miketnyc@juno.com (Michael C. Taglieri) Subject: KR: Re: Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions >I would advocate >> skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I >have >no >> idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides >are >> skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load >in >the >> aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. >The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up >with >a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the >staples wouldn't drive home. I've been thinking about this for some time. Has anybody ever tried using SCREWS instead of staples to put the plywood on the boat? The advantage would be that a screw would pull itself into the wood without requiring any force from the back, so you could skin an assembled boat structure easily. You'd probably have to predrill the plywood or at least make holes with an awl, but a screw could self-start in a softwood like spruce, and an electric screwdriver could put them all in then take them all out just as easily. A course-pitch screw like a drywall screw would be the ideal design, but smaller and MUCH thinner. I don't know if screws of that kind exist. Also, the holes left would certainly be larger than staple holes and would need to be filled. Mike Taglieri - ------------------------------------------------------- "May your life be full of lawyers" -- Mexican curse - ------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:15:40 EDT From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: 0-200 ENGINES FOR SALE This off of the DFly list. Reply to the Email address included if interested. Randy Stein Soviet Monica, CA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TWO CONTINENTAL O-200A's. Both zero time since major overhaul done by A/P. Crank Magaflux/Runout OK 0.010 under. New rings, bearings, valves, etc. Pickled with 3 gallon of storage oil and dehydrator plugs. Includes mags, carb (MA-3SPA), pull starter, alternator and vacuum pump core. Have all logs and overhaul manual. Can e-mail/send photos. $5500/each. Contact: planeman23@hotmail.com /407-861-3338 Located in Merritt Island, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:14:27 -0500 From: "Brian J. Bland" Subject: KR: Stapling skins and West Sytems All I have to say about stapling the skins is to just get a stapler and some safety wire and staple those skins on!! I had no trouble stapling my skins on after framing up the boat. K.I.S.S. The staples work and it is a cheap, simple way to do it. As for the West Systems VS T-88 thread. If you are gluing wood together just use T-88 and forget it! I have used West Sytems for glass lay-ups and it works great. It is just as strong as any other epoxy I have used. Brian J Bland Claremore, OK Mail to: bbland@gateway.net http://www.flight2000.com/hangar/KR-2S/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:11:59 -0700 From: "Martin Mulvey" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins Hi There, I tried both the electric and manual and found the manual by far the best to use for accurate bonding. BRGDS Marty - -----Original Message----- From: Wayne DeLisle Sr. To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: 18 October, 1998 07:31 Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins >Has anyone tried using an electric stapler to install the skins. > >They arn't very expensive and i would think that it would simplify the process. > >WD > >At 04:50 AM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>---------- >>> From: Dean R. Collette, MD >>> To: krnet-l@teleport.com >>> Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions >>> Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 11:30 PM >>> >>> >>> > How were the T-88 joints? >>> > >>> > Jim Hayward >>> > Rapid City, SD >>> > > >>> I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a >>> picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate >>> skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have >>no >>> idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are >>> skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in >>the >>> aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was >>> started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment >>(enough >>> to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft >>cross >>> members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, >>when >>> I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how >>large >>> the force was. >>> a long way to protecting this crucial area. >>> >>> Dean >> >> >>Dr. Collette. >> >>The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >>was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with >>a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the >>staples wouldn't drive home. >> >>Dale Baldwin, KR-2 >> >Wayne DeLisle Sr. >Email:support@sestar.net > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:18:19 -0400 From: "WARRON GRAY" Subject: Re: Skinning (was Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question) I also skinned sides after wife helped with staples , but i used a thing called "C" clamps with small pieces of wood between the teeth to keep the skins safe. Warron, in flat lawdy dale fl. - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Sunday, October 18, 1998 9:05 AM Subject: Skinning (was Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question) >At 04:50 AM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >>The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >>was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with >a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the >staples wouldn't drive home. >> >>Dale Baldwin, KR-2 >> > >I also skinned the boat after building a spruce skeleton and I agree, >applying enough pressure was the biggest problem. I thickened my t88 with a >little flox to keep it all from running off during the long process. I >ended up stapling and then going over all the staples with a tack hammer to >drive them home. This of course put a dent in the plywood that I later >filled with micro. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:10:00 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: KR: Re: Cowling Mike; You will recall that I asked you for your ideas about quick release attachments for the cowling, and at the time you were unsure what I was talking about. I now know the name of the things, Dzuz cowling attaches. The ones I got from RR are about .6 of an inch deep, so I was concerned about the thickness of the cowling and how people were making the thing go together. But back to your question, there is no doubt but that the skill levels grow with this project about proportional to the needs. The cowling was one of the toughest parts so far for me. Remember that I'm installing a Saturn engine on mine, so I had to build from scratch a cowling like none you've ever seen. Not bad really. It's long and narrow, rather than stubby and horizontal, so it makes the bird look rather long nosed. There's a bump on the bridge of this nose too, to accommadate the valve covers on that Saturn. Interesting looking for sure. Best of luck with yours. Jim - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: October 18, 1998 3:18 AM Subject: KR: Cowling >Cowling heads, I am ready to start carving a cowling for the stump puller. >I have an interesting dilemma in that I have an engine that is wider than >the firewall! So my plan was to build a cowling ala T-18. You can go to >the URL below to see a T18. Basically the cheeks are open at the rear to >allow cooling air to exit. This seems to be my only option short of making >a coke bottle shaped cowling and I think that would look gross! Any thoughts >on this idea? > >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/t182.jpg > >PS I already have the nose bowl (forward 1/3 of cowling) you see in the >picture. I need to build the rest from scratch. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:15:37 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: KR: Re: one piece wing I am using the Saturn DOHC engine in mine, and although I'm not done I agree with you it is a sweet engine set-up. Empty weight was 174 lb. which is less than the O-200. Good luck with your project, Jim - -----Original Message----- From: Mdoby34371@aol.com To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: October 18, 1998 2:02 PM Subject: KR: one piece wing >Anyone out there have any comments one building a one piece wing? >It seems that once you put it all together there's no practical way to get it >apart easily, and once you move it to the airport why would you need to? > I think the KR2S is a great looking plane and will be just the thing for >me and my son to get around in. My wife doesn't want to fly in anything >smaller than a 737! >Also, any input on using a twin-cam Saturn engine? I've got one and just love >it. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:13:28 -0700 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR: Cowling Mike, The T-18 was only 40 inches wide (about the same as your KR2S) is it possible you could use a T-18 cowl? Or was it wrapped Alum.? Dave Moore At 11:15 PM 10/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Cowling heads, I am ready to start carving a cowling for the stump puller. >I have an interesting dilemma in that I have an engine that is wider than >the firewall! So my plan was to build a cowling ala T-18. You can go to >the URL below to see a T18. Basically the cheeks are open at the rear to >allow cooling air to exit. This seems to be my only option short of making >a coke bottle shaped cowling and I think that would look gross! Any thoughts >on this idea? > >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/t182.jpg > >PS I already have the nose bowl (forward 1/3 of cowling) you see in the >picture. I need to build the rest from scratch. >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >SP290,..Putting the engine back together now! >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Irvine Ca >Fax 949.856.9417 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > David Moore mailto:dgmoore1@gte.net Henderson, Nevada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:25:18 -0400 From: "WARRON GRAY" Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins Wayne , i used an electric stapler and a hand stapler. The electric one worked great but it was real fun trying to get them out had to make a thin tool to grab the sob,s without ruining skin. tried a string under staple as i tacked in place but the material i used was to weak to pull out staples . maybe a stronger string would work but it was to late by then Warron - -----Original Message----- From: Wayne DeLisle Sr. To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Sunday, October 18, 1998 10:31 AM Subject: Re: KR: Re:Stapling skins >Has anyone tried using an electric stapler to install the skins. > >They arn't very expensive and i would think that it would simplify the process. > >WD > >At 04:50 AM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>---------- >>> From: Dean R. Collette, MD >>> To: krnet-l@teleport.com >>> Subject: Re: KR: Re:Fiberglass question/Thanks,more questions >>> Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 11:30 PM >>> >>> >>> > How were the T-88 joints? >>> > >>> > Jim Hayward >>> > Rapid City, SD >>> > > >>> I am not building a KR according to the plans - (You might have seen a >>> picture of my fuselage on Mark Langford's web site) but I would advocate >>> skinning the sides AFTER the boat frame is put together. Granted, I have >>no >>> idea how difficult this is, but I can tell you that when the sides are >>> skinned flat and then bent into shape, there is a considerable load in >>the >>> aft fuselage that wants to spring the sides back apart. This project was >>> started in '94 and then sat for awhile in a very humid environment >>(enough >>> to rot the bottom.) Despite time and humidity, when I cut the top aft >>cross >>> members, the top of the fuse tail sprang apart almost six inches. Then, >>when >>> I cut the bottom, she FLEW apart to almost flat. I was amazed at how >>large >>> the force was. >>> a long way to protecting this crucial area. >>> >>> Dean >> >> >>Dr. Collette. >> >>The only draw back I found to skinning the boat structure assembled >>was that during the stapling I had to had the wife back the spruce up with >>a bucking bar otherwise there was too much spring in the wood and the >>staples wouldn't drive home. >> >>Dale Baldwin, KR-2 >> >Wayne DeLisle Sr. >Email:support@sestar.net > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #163 *****************************