From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:53 AM To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #169 krnet-l-digest Thursday, October 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 169 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:18:08 -0500 From: "R.W. Moore" Subject: Re: Re(2): KR: New KR website address Depends what kind of a patent R. W. Moore N115RM - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sharkey To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 12:39 PM Subject: Re(2): KR: New KR website address >krnet-l@teleport.com writes: >> >>How long is a patent good for? > >I believe it's a copyright, not a patent. As far as I know, a copyright is good >for ever. > >Mike Sharkey >http://www.softarc.com/~msharkey > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:41:42 PST From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR: Post Curing Blues Lately for small peices my wifes kitchen works well. If its attached to my airplane a drop light will give off enough heat to keep a small area warm. insulate the area and create a "stovepipe" with flame proof material (cotton) check the temperature and keep rechecking to make sure nothing is going to cook too much or combust. Also last winter I used a propane space heater that I have. Its the same as the contractors often use. They are referred to as bullet heaters around here. Some also run on kerosene. They can be rented or bought through Northern Hydraulics. They do generate fumes and have a open flame so dont fall asleep or play with solvents around it. I'm not worrying about post curing until the whole thing is done then I'm going to put the whole plane in my attic. Richard E. Parker Jaffrey, NH 20 -30 F tonight (You southern guys dont know how lucky you have it.) >From: AeroManx@aol.com >Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:47:34 EST >To: krnet-l@teleport.com, Fishnet-list@SportFlyer.com >Subject: KR: Post Curing Blues >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >Is there any way to enhance curing and post curing in a "colder" (Ohio) >environment? I was considering Aeropoxy which they say doesnt have a post cure >requirement but I dont have enough info - > >Thanks for the assist > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:48:30 EST From: AeroManx@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Post Curing Blues Rich Thanks - Someone else had mentioned a propane bullet. Even in moderate heat (60-70) in the spring and fall there is no problem. My garage faces Southwest and after 1pm it is easily 150degrees in there. I also know I wont be doing much work when it gets to sub zero (curing or not!) I read somewhere that Aeropoxy doesnt require post curing because of its high cure temp. Im trying to sort through all the data before i press ahead. Thanks for your info CAVU to you St ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:54:03 -0600 From: "Dean Collette" Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) Rich, The Diehl gear legs are 24" long. Keep in mind that several people that use these legs have expressed interest in longer legs (like up to 30") however, Dan won't sell them that long. Dean - -----Original Message----- From: Richard Parker To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:11 PM Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) >So back to my original question, how high is it? > >>From: "WARRON GRAY" >>To: >>Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) >>Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:06:35 -0400 >>Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com >> >>Rich, I am using the diehl main gear and nose ggear on my "s" it goes >>together nicely and fairly easily. My hangar buddies, steve makish and >bob >>lester liked it so much that they are both switching to the main gear >setup >>for their butt draggers :0) I think you will like it over the alum. >,my >>cheap opinion Warron in flat lawdy dale >>I forgot to add that i was testing with a 56 inch warp drive with no >problem >>on ground clearance. i will be using a 52 inch prop in the end as tests >show >>i can run up my soob to 5600 on a 52 60 but that is static. probably >a66inch >>pitch for best use. sorry got carried away with engine talk. buy the >diehl >>gear.... > >>>Richard Parker wrote: >>>> >>>> Anyone know how high the Diehl gear is? (for a nosedragger) > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:59:38 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re(2): KR: New KR website address/copyright >>How long is a patent good for? > >I believe it's a copyright, not a patent. As far as I know, a copyright is >good >for ever. A typical utility patent lasts for 20 years generally. Maintenance fees and other considerations may extend or lessen this time. For original works created after Jan.1, 1978, and not as a "Work For Hire", copyright is good for the life of the holder plus 50 years, after which it would generally revert to the public domain. In the case of a work created in an arrangement by joint authorship also not for a work-for-hire situation, it last for 50 years after the last surviving author's death. "Work For Hire" is a different case, I think around 75 years or so. Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:41:56 -0600 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: KR: Anodizing Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a book or two. Thanks! Ed Janssen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:16:16 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Dan Diehl Nose Gear Anyone who may have bought a DD nose wheel assembly recently do you remember how much it cost? The price list I have from RR is about 2 years old so I wanted to check if it has gone up at all. Thanks! Also if anyone knows of one for sale email me direct. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:13:56 +0100 From: "Stefan den Boer" Subject: KR: Mosler engine solld Hai guys, a few days ago I ask You about the Mosler engine, I got there a lot of info over, but i calld the guy who selld the engine yesterday. He tolld me that his engine already gone was. So I have too look for an other one. Bad writing dutch guy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 05:07:39 PST From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing Its not anything you want to do at home. Too many chemicals acids etc. Find a local vendor in the Thomas register or yellow pages and ask them if they will throw your parts with one of there other jobs. Rich Parker >Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:41:56 -0600 >To: krnet-l@teleport.com >From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) >Subject: KR: Anodizing >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing >aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a >book or two. > >Thanks! > >Ed Janssen > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:19:10 EST From: AeroManx@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Mosler engine Keep an eye on TEC engines (now Team 38) I spoke with them yesterday, they are going to be selling off the last of thier VW conversions to clear out the hanger - probably in the next few weeks.It may be an opportunity to pick up some bargin basement hardware. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:26:29 -0500 From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing At 10:41 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing >aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a >book or two. As a matter of fact, checkout this web site. www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/main.html There are 2 articles there that look real interesting. Enjoy, WD Wayne DeLisle Sr. Email:support@sestar.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:14:52 -0500 From: Robert McDonald Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing At 10:41 PM 10/27/98 -0600, Ed Janssen wrote: >Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing >aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a >book or two. Check out rec.crafts.metalworking there was a thread on this earlier this year. Maybe a Deja News search would turn up something. Rob McDonald - ----------------------- Robert J. McDonald, P.Eng. ----------------------- Industrial Automation M.Sc. - Computation Real Time Embedded Software B.Tech.-Mechanical Engineering Scientific & Engineering Software Voice: 519-372-9916 Fax: 519-372-9356 - ------------------------- rob.mcdonald@forth.org ------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:08:23 -0500 From: msharkey@softarc.com (Mike Sharkey) Subject: KR: Borrowing Ideas (was: New KR website address) krnet-l@teleport.com writes: >OK, Copyright, Can't patent an airplane anymore as the Wright Bros should hold >the >Patent. But you can copyright a set of plans. So I guess like most 650 >airplanes >out their they all have a fuselage, wings and a tail, they just look a little >different from each other. > >So did the designer of the KR not use anybody elses ideas or wing shape? I have >only designed model airplanes form wing shapes, Airfoils that were in Model >Airplane News and Airtrails long ago. Funny I built a Canard Type model long >before >Rutan came out with the real thing, but the Wright Bros had it first. But, not >being a aero engineer I also built some that crashed on first flight, models >that >is. No computers back in the late 50's and 60's You can borrow ideas and designs from copyrighted plans, you just can't reproduce them verbatim. Think of a Copyright as a protection for the authors against duplication as in Xerox'ing. If you take a KR aircraft, for example, draw it in CAD (or manually if you still do that), make some changes to it and re-distributed it, for example, I don't think you'd be violating the copyright laws, so long as none of the original plans are contained in the new plans, that is to say that none of the drawings or information is "exactly" the same, as if Xerox'ed. The plan-set is what's copyrighted, that is to say the content printed on the paper, not the design. If you want to protect a design, you have to get a patent, which would be hard to do on an aircraft. You may be able to patent a component if it's unique enough, but not the whole plane. I think every aircraft has design details that are "borrowed" from some other aircraft, well, perhaps with the exception of the Wright Brother's plane. Mike Sharkey http://www.softarc.com/~msharkey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:11:45 -0800 From: Gordon Brimhall Subject: Re: KR: New KR website address I have a Challanger Movie coming to watch. Gordon JEHayward@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/27/98 5:20:05 AM Mountain Standard Time, tomkr2s@t- > three.com writes: > > << Gordon, > You might be able to fly off 407' with an ultralight with at least 40hp and > FAR 103 weight. > -Tom >> > > My Challenger 2-place gets off in less than 200' with 2 on board. > It has a 50 hp Rotax 503 and weighs about 330 lbs. It's quite a machine! > > Jim Hayward > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:00:21 -0800 From: Gordon Brimhall Subject: Re: KR: Borrowing Ideas (was: New KR website address) Thanks Mike That clears it up alot. Makes sinse also. Still waiting for my books on homebuilt aircraft to arrive so I can learn more on design. Gordon Mike Sharkey wrote: > krnet-l@teleport.com writes: > >OK, Copyright, Can't patent an airplane anymore as the Wright Bros should hold > >the > >Patent. But you can copyright a set of plans. So I guess like most 650 > >airplanes > >out their they all have a fuselage, wings and a tail, they just look a little > >different from each other. > > > >So did the designer of the KR not use anybody elses ideas or wing shape? I have > >only designed model airplanes form wing shapes, Airfoils that were in Model > >Airplane News and Airtrails long ago. Funny I built a Canard Type model long > >before > >Rutan came out with the real thing, but the Wright Bros had it first. But, not > >being a aero engineer I also built some that crashed on first flight, models > >that > >is. No computers back in the late 50's and 60's > > You can borrow ideas and designs from copyrighted plans, you just can't > reproduce them verbatim. Think of a Copyright as a protection for the authors > against duplication as in Xerox'ing. > > If you take a KR aircraft, for example, draw it in CAD (or manually if you > still do that), make some changes to it and re-distributed it, for example, I > don't think you'd be violating the copyright laws, so long as none of the > original plans are contained in the new plans, that is to say that none of the > drawings or information is "exactly" the same, as if Xerox'ed. The plan-set is > what's copyrighted, that is to say the content printed on the paper, not the > design. If you want to protect a design, you have to get a patent, which would > be hard to do on an aircraft. You may be able to patent a component if it's > unique enough, but not the whole plane. I think every aircraft has design > details that are "borrowed" from some other aircraft, well, perhaps with the > exception of the Wright Brother's plane. > > Mike Sharkey > http://www.softarc.com/~msharkey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:10:31 EST From: AeroManx@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Borrowing Ideas (was: New KR website address) Rule of thumb for pattent and copyright activity is that under patent law the desing must show "singnificant difference or improvement by a degree of not less than 10 percent of the original design to be considered for unique patent" (Title 21, US Code) As far as copyright, there is no law preventing transfer of copyrighted information as long as the original author is either a) compensated and has a release agreement or b) is reference appropriately if the work is research oriented. (Title 19, US Code) There have been several landmark cases in patent law which site the 10% rule. Copyright is not so clear and Im not aware of any challenges in the civil system although there have been numerous challenges in the criminal system (such as George Harrison being sucessfully sued over "My Sweet Lord" which the writer of the The Ronnettes song "Hes So Fine" said was a direct copy musically of thier song. Despite the fact that the words were 100% difffernt, the writers of the song sued and won a big chunk of change based on the music alone. So, what do we say about the EZE and the Velocity? The 737 and AirBus? The Cessna and Piper? Heres one for you, The new Plymouth Prowler is a direct copy of a George Berris designed 1/24 scale hot rod model from the 1960s! Berris has not challenged the design even tho the Plymouth designer has admitted he copied it from Berris' original model So go figger!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:37:54 EST From: SRMAKISH@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Mosler engine I knew the Taylors too, I would appreciate if you could e mail me their address or phone number. Thank you. SRMAKISH@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:39:54 EST From: SRMAKISH@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Heads-up Display and Fuel Management Board Ron:Please mail me some info if you can Steve Makish 11418 chipmunk Dr. Boca Raton Fl. 33428 Thanks . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:43:10 EST From: SRMAKISH@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance One was a 78mm scat, the other 2 were stock 2 liter cranks. The last one had steve's forcr one hub in it. It seemed to be ok when I sold the engine. I have not heard from the kr builder I sold it too, so I don't know how it held up. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:06:34 -0500 From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance At 05:43 PM 10/28/98 EST, you wrote: >One was a 78mm scat, the other 2 were stock 2 liter cranks. The last one had >steve's forcr one hub in it. It seemed to be ok when I sold the engine. I have >not heard from the kr builder I sold it too, so I don't know how it held up. What kind of crank was the scat? Cast, welded, or other? What kind of prop hub were you using? Something bolted to the pulley end of the crank?? Did the cranks all break in the same place?? Thanks for the info, I'd like to know as much as I can about this problem. WD Wayne DeLisle Sr. Email:support@sestar.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:04:17 -0700 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: KR: TEAM Z-Max Aircraft for sale Ok, this is a little off subject, but since many on the list are not KR "purist" I thought I would post it anyway. Please reply directly to william Metcalf listed below if this piques your interest. Jeff - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Circumstances are forcing the sale of my TEAM Z-max project .Many of you have seen it. I would say it's about 80% complete. All Sitka spruce and Canadian white pine. Only aircraft-grade components. Dual wing tanks, wheelpants, brakes, electric trim,,Temperfoam seat material, full aerobatic harness. Suzuki 530 water-cooled engine and full instrument panel. Does not include covering and paint. Over $8000 invested. Sell for $5000 with engine, $4000 without. Includes plans for both open and closed cockpit versions and materials for completion. Trailer available. Contact William Metcalf at "mailto:wmetcalf@roadrunner.com" Pictures of this project can be seen on the EAA chapter 691web under the "Member Projects" heading at http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/launchpad/9727 Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kjeffs.html http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:26:38 -0700 From: jscott.pilot@juno.com (Jeffrey E Scott) Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) With my 30" Diehl gear legs, the ground clearance is 23 1/2 inches at the bottom of the main spar. With the 24" gear legs that Dan sells, they sit about 4" lower than mine. I use a 60" prop and have lots of clearance. I could have easily run a 66 inch prop without any problems. BTW, the reason for not selling the longer gear legs is that Dan is concerned about the amount of torque applied to the aluminum castings inside the wing. I understand that he did alot of drop testing of the KRs with the 24" gear legs. None with the longer legs. As best I understand it, Larry Flesner and I have the only sets of 30" Diehl gear legs. You could say that I have drop tested mine several times with no failures yet. :o) Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213W construction and first flight at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kjeffs.html http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:54:03 -0600 "Dean Collette" writes: >Rich, >The Diehl gear legs are 24" long. >Keep in mind that several people that use these legs have expressed >interest >in longer legs (like up to 30") however, Dan won't sell them that >long. > >Dean >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Parker >To: krnet-l@teleport.com >Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:11 PM >Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) > > >>So back to my original question, how high is it? >> >>>From: "WARRON GRAY" >>>To: >>>Subject: Re: KR: gear height (the price of tea) >>>Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:06:35 -0400 >>>Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com >>> >>>Rich, I am using the diehl main gear and nose ggear on my "s" it >goes >>>together nicely and fairly easily. My hangar buddies, steve makish >and >>bob >>>lester liked it so much that they are both switching to the main >gear >>setup >>>for their butt draggers :0) I think you will like it over the alum. >>,my >>>cheap opinion Warron in flat lawdy dale >>>I forgot to add that i was testing with a 56 inch warp drive with no >>problem >>>on ground clearance. i will be using a 52 inch prop in the end as >tests >>show >>>i can run up my soob to 5600 on a 52 60 but that is static. probably >>a66inch >>>pitch for best use. sorry got carried away with engine talk. buy >the >>diehl >>>gear.... >> >>>>Richard Parker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Anyone know how high the Diehl gear is? (for a nosedragger) >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:11:19 -0400 From: "WARRON GRAY" Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance Wayne this is nosey Warron , i have a photo of the crank I'll send it to ross with other stuff. I think that was his forged crank . - -----Original Message----- From: Wayne DeLisle Sr. To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:08 PM Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance >At 05:43 PM 10/28/98 EST, you wrote: >>One was a 78mm scat, the other 2 were stock 2 liter cranks. The last one had >>steve's forcr one hub in it. It seemed to be ok when I sold the engine. I have >>not heard from the kr builder I sold it too, so I don't know how it held up. > >What kind of crank was the scat? Cast, welded, or other? What kind of prop >hub were you >using? Something bolted to the pulley end of the crank?? > >Did the cranks all break in the same place?? > >Thanks for the info, I'd like to know as much as I can about this problem. > >WD >Wayne DeLisle Sr. >Email:support@sestar.net > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:51:32 -0600 From: Bobby Muse Subject: Re: KR: New KR website address At 09:03 PM 10/27/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/27/98 5:20:05 AM Mountain Standard Time, tomkr2s@t- >three.com writes: > ><< Gordon, > You might be able to fly off 407' with an ultralight with at least 40hp and > FAR 103 weight. > -Tom >> > > My Challenger 2-place gets off in less than 200' with 2 on board. >It has a 50 hp Rotax 503 and weighs about 330 lbs. It's quite a machine! > >Jim Hayward > > > FYI. My KR2(N122B) got off of the ground in 132'(measured) as part of the Spot Landing Contest @ Perry,OK.. But that was with only one on board and an empty weight of 629 lbs. It's quite a machine! Also, it cruises at 160 mph and has a range of almost 600 miles. It's quite a machine! Wow, this feels good. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:23:34 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance At 08:06 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >What kind of crank was the scat? Cast, welded, or other? >>> I don't think there is no such animal as a cast type 4 crank. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:23:36 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: New KR website address At 09:51 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >FYI. My KR2(N122B) got off of the ground in 132'(measured) as part of the Spot Landing Contest @ Perry,OK.. But that was with only one on board and an empty weight of 629 lbs. It's quite a machine! Also, it cruises at 160 mph and has a range of almost 600 miles. It's quite >a machine! > >Wow, this feels good. > > Bobby Muse Yeah Bobby a lot of these guys don't really have a grasp of what a KR does. To put it bluntly, they kick as_! :o) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:45:13 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance At 08:06 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >What kind of crank was the scat? Cast, welded, or other? What kind of prop hub were you using? >>> I hate to ramble on about these things but I did a lot of research and I feel the need to share! :o) I am sure SRMAKISH will back me on this so here goes. There seems to be two or three modes of failure with the stock type four VW crank. One mode is where the nose of the crank just breaks off and your prop and prop hub departs your flying machine. This is probably caused by harmonics and bending loads imposed on the crank by the prop or the fact the person did not deep drill the crank and use the long hub bolt or they torqued the bolt to tight. (this is what has happened to two of my friends with 1835 type1s) Yes I said too tight, this will cause a premature failure of the crank snout. The second mode is when the crank cracks in half right in the middle between the two center crank throws (or general area). From what I can tell this is caused by a couple of things, one the oil passages in the crank create a week area, two the prop spinning on one end and the flywheel spinning on the other create harmonic problems. The third mode is because the thrust bearing is at the aft end of the crank and the prop is pulling on the forward end. This is what I call the accordion effect, the prop pulls the crank stretches, the prop unloads and the crank shrinks, do this a couple of thousand times and whala! Crank snapith in halfa! The SCAT crank is the big $$$ crank Mark and I have referred to a few times. It is forged out of a VERY hard steel and I doubt it would break. But the $1500 to $2000 price tag is kinda hard to swallow. Also I believe the SCAT crank is beefed up around the previously mentioned oil passages in mode two. The cranks used in the Revmasters are similar to this crank and with Revmasters prop hub I don't think there have been many, if any cranks break. Revmaster also moved the thrust bearing to the front of the engine. Now the old cast Revmaster crank is another story! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:40:35 -0700 From: Adrian Carter Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing Ed Janssen wrote: > > Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing > aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a > book or two. > > Thanks! > > Ed Janssen Hello Ed and KRnetters, This is relatively simple procedure. Main thing is to make sure you acid etch well. You can get this acid at the same place usually as the anodizing liquid. Procedure is to etch anywhere from five to fifteen mins by just painting the acid onto the piece and then wash off with water, do a good job here you want to get rid of all the acid. After you do a few pieces you will know how well the etch is. Then let dry, I used a heat gun, make for a faster job then air dry. Then you can paint or spray on the anondine and let dry. I still have pieces that I did 15 years ago. There are many other ways I'm sure but this is simple. Good luck! - -- Adrian VE6AFY Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:09:20 -0800 From: Gordon Brimhall Subject: Re: KR: New KR website address Was discussing this with an old Navy Buddy when he was out on my property, he said to build a carrier style runway with catapult & landing wire. No, I don't think so. how about a KR with more wing area? Low wing airplanes just don't make great STOL aircraft do they? Gordon Bobby Muse wrote: > At 09:03 PM 10/27/98 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 10/27/98 5:20:05 AM Mountain Standard Time, tomkr2s@t- > >three.com writes: > > > ><< Gordon, > > You might be able to fly off 407' with an ultralight with at least 40hp and > > FAR 103 weight. > > -Tom >> > > > > My Challenger 2-place gets off in less than 200' with 2 on board. > >It has a 50 hp Rotax 503 and weighs about 330 lbs. It's quite a machine! > > > >Jim Hayward > > > > > > > FYI. My KR2(N122B) got off of the ground in 132'(measured) as part of the > Spot Landing Contest @ Perry,OK.. But that was with only one on board and > an empty weight of 629 lbs. It's quite a machine! > Also, it cruises at 160 mph and has a range of almost 600 miles. It's quite > a machine! > > Wow, this feels good. > > Bobby Muse > mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com > Wimberly, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:43:58 -0800 From: Gordon Brimhall Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing years back I was messing around with Drano and it anodized alum quite well. Gordon Adrian Carter wrote: > Ed Janssen wrote: > > > > Anyone out there in KR land have some info on getting started in doing > > aluminum anodizing - for aircraft parts.? Could use a suggestion from a > > book or two. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ed Janssen > > Hello Ed and KRnetters, > This is relatively simple procedure. Main thing is to make sure you acid > etch well. You can get this acid at the same place usually as the > anodizing liquid. Procedure is to etch anywhere from five to fifteen > mins by just painting the acid onto the piece and then wash off with > water, do a good job here you want to get rid of all the acid. After you > do a few pieces you will know how well the etch is. Then let dry, I used > a heat gun, make for a faster job then air dry. Then you can paint or > spray on the anondine and let dry. I still have pieces that I did 15 > years ago. There are many other ways I'm sure but this is simple. > Good luck! > -- > Adrian VE6AFY > Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca > http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:38:47 EST From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Anodizing In a message dated 98-10-28 08:31:03 EST, you write: << Its not anything you want to do at home. Too many chemicals acids etc. Find a local vendor in the Thomas register or yellow pages and ask them if they will throw your parts with one of there other jobs >> There is a process called alodining that you can probably do in a shop. It does use phospohoric acid which need to be disposed off properly as it may damage sewer systems. Or it may be illegal to dispose in the sewer system. I have used it when I was in school for space hardware as a substitute for anodizing. I think AS&S sells the required chemicals. All you need is a metal cleaner and the alodining solution. Haris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:12:51 -0500 From: William Thelen Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance I see in HOT VW Magazine the SCAT ad has 2 types of forged cranks listed. Priced from ~$600 to ~$750 I can't find a $1500.00 crank listed from them. Is the higher price you are quoting because of the deep drilling? Or is the higher priced crank re-sold via someone else? Thanks, Bill Thelen Micheal Mims wrote: > At 08:06 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote: > >What kind of crank was the scat? Cast, welded, or other? What kind of prop > hub were you using? >>> > > I hate to ramble on about these things but I did a lot of research and I > feel the need to share! :o) I am sure SRMAKISH will back me on this so > here goes. There seems to be two or three modes of failure with the stock > type four VW crank. > > One mode is where the nose of the crank just breaks off and your prop and > prop hub departs your flying machine. This is probably caused by harmonics > and bending loads imposed on the crank by the prop or the fact the person > did not deep drill the crank and use the long hub bolt or they torqued the > bolt to tight. (this is what has happened to two of my friends with 1835 > type1s) Yes I said too tight, this will cause a premature failure of the > crank snout. > > The second mode is when the crank cracks in half right in the middle between > the two center crank throws (or general area). From what I can tell this is > caused by a couple of things, one the oil passages in the crank create a > week area, two the prop spinning on one end and the flywheel spinning on the > other create harmonic problems. > > The third mode is because the thrust bearing is at the aft end of the crank > and the prop is pulling on the forward end. This is what I call the > accordion effect, the prop pulls the crank stretches, the prop unloads and > the crank shrinks, do this a couple of thousand times and whala! Crank > snapith in halfa! > > The SCAT crank is the big $$$ crank Mark and I have referred to a few times. > It is forged out of a VERY hard steel and I doubt it would break. But the > $1500 to $2000 price tag is kinda hard to swallow. Also I believe the SCAT > crank is beefed up around the previously mentioned oil passages in mode two. > > The cranks used in the Revmasters are similar to this crank and with > Revmasters prop hub I don't think there have been many, if any cranks break. > Revmaster also moved the thrust bearing to the front of the engine. Now > the old cast Revmaster crank is another story! > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > Irvine Ca > Fax 949.856.9417 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:45:10 -0800 From: Tom Crawford Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance SRMAKISH@aol.com wrote: > > One was a 78mm scat, the other 2 were stock 2 liter cranks. The last one had > steve's forcr one hub in it. It seemed to be ok when I sold the engine. I have > not heard from the kr builder I sold it too, so I don't know how it held up. Steve, From your post it sounds like the first crank to break was a stroker. What sort of prop hub did it have? It sounds like the second to break was a stock crank without a F1 hub. Correct? It sounds like the stock crank with the F1 hub never broke. Is this what you are saying? There are people on this net who are trying to make engine decisions, and need accurate information from people like you who have been there and done that. Thanks for your help. Tom Crawford tomc@afn.org Gainesville, FL N262TC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 06:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Bennett Subject: [none] A couple month ago there was discussion about a spreadsheet to calculate weight and balance for the 2S. Could someone who has a copy of the spreadsheet attach it to an e-mail to at jbennett@sdenet.alsde.edu. Thanks much Jake Bennett _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:27:14 EST From: AeroManx@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Jake, If that surfaces, send it my way. It will be a handy thing to have. Thanks Steve Majercik, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:09:06 EST From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: RE: Force One Hub In a message dated 98-10-29 08:36:17 EST, you write: << It sounds like the stock crank with the F1 hub never broke. Is this what you are saying? >> For those of you who are not aware of what the force one prop hub is or does, I have pictures of my engine rebuild on my engine page. Steve at GP is very anamate about not over torquing your prop hub to the crank...............do as you are told here folks. For those of you who are considering a VW engine, a lot has already been said on this subject here so I won't expound too much. If you are going to put any VW in your airplane that is above an 1835, my recommendation is to go ahead and drop the bucks and go with the Force 1 and the billet forged crank. You can also see the stock crank beside the stroker crank on my engine page. I'm going out on a limb here, but I have heard that there have been no known instances of crank failure, at least in the 2180, when someone properly installed the 4340 crank along with the Force 1 hub. BTW, I upgraded my 1835 to the 2180 with F1 for under $1,600.00. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:03:19 EST From: HAshraf@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: Nose Heavy in Chino Hey Mike. Before you do major surgery on the airplane maybe you should consider the option of either going with a smaller engine (O-200) or moving the gear forward a little more. Yeah it costs extra money but losing 5 kts speed and couple hundered miles of endurance has a price too. Haris (the tortoise) Ashraf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:53:18 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: RE: Mark Stephens High Performance William Thelen wrote: > > I see in HOT VW Magazine the SCAT ad has 2 types of forged cranks listed. > Priced from ~$600 to ~$750 I can't find a $1500.00 crank listed from them. > Is the higher price you are quoting because of the deep drilling? Or is the > higher priced crank re-sold via someone else? > > Thanks, > > Bill Thelen > Are you looking at the SCAT crank for type 1s or type 4s? I havent looked into this in over 2 years so maybe the prices have changed. The price you quoted must be for a type one though. Mark knows more about this so maybe he will pipe up? - -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building ailerons and firewall now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Irvine Ca Fax 949.856.9417 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #169 *****************************