From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 12:11 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: January 30, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Saturday, January 30, 1999. 1. Re: New Tail, pictures. 2. Re:Widening Fuselage 3. Re: New Tail, pictures. 4. Re: New Tail, pictures. 5. Re: New Tail, pictures. 6. Lift/Drag in Laminar Flow 7. RE: Lift/Drag in Laminar Flow 8. AS50xx airfoil characteristics web site 9. retract or not 10. Intercom Kit from RST 11. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 12. RE: retract or not 13. RE: Intercom Kit from RST 14. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 15. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 16. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 17. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 18. Price for Headsup Display 19. Re: Intercom Kit from RST 20. Re: retract or not 21. Aeropoxy question 22. Ellison carby manifold 23. Re: Intercom Kit from RST ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New Tail, pictures. From: Ron Freiberger Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:58:41 -0500 X-Message-Number: 1 Move it forward, I could understand. Move it AFT in counter intuitive. I think we'll need to know why before going forward. -----Original Message----- From: bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com [mailto:bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com] On Behalf Of Mike Mims Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 1:16 AM To: KR-net users group Subject: [kr-net] Re: New Tail, pictures. Doug Peyton wrote: > < Why/how does this new tail configuratuion move the aft CG back by as > much as 50%? >>>> I don't know if anyone answered your question yet but anytime you increase the horizontal tail area you move the allowable CG aft. It basically gives the airplane the ability to handle a further aft CG. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ronald.freiberger@cwix.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re:Widening Fuselage From: Ron Freiberger Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:04:01 -0500 X-Message-Number: 2 What's the banana boat problem? I understant the mechanics of it, but not the problem. CG/Weight an balance ought to be done with a template on the airfoil to know angle of incidence, then work backward to know a dimension wher e you can lay a level on the cockpit sill or other handy place. Widening the top is surely bad for the pre-moded business, but these are easy parts to make anyway. Previous Post Widening the bottom only also helps with banana boat problems. Point is, this is all she endorses in the widening dept. according to my conversations about such a change. Widening the bottom does not change the overall planform of the plane all that much in her eyes I suppose, plus doing the top makes preformed parts all that much harder to use as you surmise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New Tail, pictures. From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:31:51 -0600 X-Message-Number: 3 > Move it forward, I could understand. Move it AFT in counter intuitive. I > think we'll need to know why before going forward. What he meant was that it moves the "allowable" CG range further aft, not the actual CG. It has the effect of allowing you to fly with your CG further aft than otherwise, without getting into instability. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New Tail, pictures. From: David Moore Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:48:54 +0000 X-Message-Number: 4 Netters, Seems like in a newsletter several years ago someone tried this same tail form and it had the opposite affect it actually made the plane more sensitive because of more elevator. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Dave Moore At 11:31 AM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >> Move it forward, I could understand. Move it AFT in counter intuitive. I >> think we'll need to know why before going forward. > >What he meant was that it moves the "allowable" CG range further aft, not >the actual CG. It has the effect of allowing you to fly with your CG >further aft than otherwise, without getting into instability. > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: dgmoore1@gte.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > David G. Moore mailto:dgmoore1@gte.net Henderson, Nevada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New Tail, pictures. From: "Dean Collette" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:04:44 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5 Dave, I searched and searched, but I cannot find the newsletter that had anything like this in it. If you happen to know which issue, I'll gladly look it up. Dean -----Original Message----- From: David Moore To: KR-net users group Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: New Tail, pictures. >Netters, >Seems like in a newsletter several years ago someone tried this same tail >form and it had the opposite affect it actually made the plane more >sensitive because of more elevator. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > >Dave Moore > > > >At 11:31 AM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >>> Move it forward, I could understand. Move it AFT in counter intuitive. I >>> think we'll need to know why before going forward. >> >>What he meant was that it moves the "allowable" CG range further aft, not >>the actual CG. It has the effect of allowing you to fly with your CG >>further aft than otherwise, without getting into instability. >> >>Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >>mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >>see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford >> >> >>--- >>You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: dgmoore1@gte.net >>To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> >> >David G. Moore >mailto:dgmoore1@gte.net >Henderson, Nevada > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: drdean@execpc.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Lift/Drag in Laminar Flow From: Ron Freiberger Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:01:29 -0500 X-Message-Number: 6 I THINK I rememnber that most laminar flow airfoils have a "drag bucket" area in which l/d ration is somewhat lower. Also, following the "can"t fool mother nature " rule, the drag is higher if Load (weight) puts you out of that region. Does this seem correct, and what are the characteristics of "our" new airfoil in this respect? Ron Freiberger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Lift/Drag in Laminar Flow From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:29:59 -0600 X-Message-Number: 7 > I THINK I rememnber that most laminar flow airfoils have a "drag bucket" > area in which l/d ration is somewhat lower. > Also, following the "can"t fool mother nature " rule, the drag is > higher if > Load (weight) puts you out of that region. > > Does this seem correct, and what are the characteristics of "our" new > airfoil in this respect? The new airfoil was optimized for the KR2S, so the drag bucket is located on the expected operating range of a 1000 lb gross KR2S. For our purposes, we assumed a 180 mph cruise. That's one reason why this airfoil is going to be so nice. It's designed specifically for this plane. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: AS50xx airfoil characteristics web site From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:48:29 -0600 X-Message-Number: 8 > Does this seem correct, and what are the characteristics of "our" new > airfoil in this respect? Ron asked about the new airfoil characteristics, and I discovered that my web page didn't have a link to the dissertation that Ashok did on the new airfoil. Tune in to http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~ashok/kr2/airfoils/ for the whole nine yards on this airfoil, and how it will lead to improved performance and efficiency for the KR2S. It's 18 pages of good information (including drag buckets and comparisons with the RAF48), written by the aeronautical engineering graduate student who designed it. Steve Eberhart gets the credit for spearheading the effort to have the new airfoil designed for us KRNetHeads. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: retract or not From: "David McKelvey" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:26:12 X-Message-Number: 9 Hey netters, I set out to biuld my KR1 w/ fixed tri gear. However, I'm thinking that I should stick to the conv. retrac that started it all. The fixed gear is more $$ and I assume it wieghs more. Ofcoarse your going to loose a few knotts with the gear hanging in the breeze too. I have no tail dragger time, but thats easy to fix, it's just the short fuselage that makes me nervous. What do you think? dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Intercom Kit from RST From: "Austin Clark" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:36:19 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 Netters, I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering on my web page. Austin Clark KR2S Pascagoula MS itac@datasync.com www.datasync.com/~itac/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: Patrick Flowers Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:29:12 -0500 X-Message-Number: 11 Austin Clark wrote: > > I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and > was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of > the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits > starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for > the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering > on my web page. I've got one and love it. Can't beat it for the price. The squelch is a little different and takes some getting used to. It doesn't clip off like most intercoms, but fades off after a second or two. Only problem I had putting it together was finding out that my "forty-something" eyes weren't as good as they used to be. Had to get a magnifying glass to read the silk screening on the board. That ain't RST's fault tho'. Patrick -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net The GMC Motorhome Page http://www.gmcmotorhome.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: retract or not From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:13:41 -0600 X-Message-Number: 12 > I set out to biuld my KR1 w/ fixed tri gear. However, > I'm thinking that I should stick to the conv. retrac that > started it all. I think the conventional wisdom is that replacing stock retracts with fixed main gear will get you more speed, and even save a few pounds, not to mention the peace of mind you get when you're 5 feet above the runway. The stock retracts actually hang out into the breeze about 3.5 inches, which is a real drag. The stock retracts also have a way of collapsing on you if you land too hard or hit a big enough bump. But without a doubt, you can save money with retracts. I'll bet several people would give you a set for free... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Intercom Kit from RST From: Ron Freiberger Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:14:46 -0500 X-Message-Number: 13 Some of us have a less than enthusiastic attitude toward RST,due to poor handling of problem issues. In my case it was rudeness and difficult to communicate, rather than a lack of technical expertise. There were some relatively unimportant design issues, which I also thought ought to be addressed, and at least one that needed attention. On that issue, RST planned to make an upgrade modification available on a complaint basis. The problem withthat plan is that the customer would have relatively poor performance, but not know to complain. Of course, with millions of those sets (Ha!) out there, it's a real problem Ron Freiberger. -----Original Message----- From: bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com [mailto:bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com] On Behalf Of Austin Clark Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 6:36 PM To: KR-net users group Subject: [kr-net] Intercom Kit from RST ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: Bob and Grace Welfel Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:34:35 -0500 X-Message-Number: 14 Austin Clark wrote: > > Netters, > > I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and > was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of > the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits > starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for > the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering > on my web page. > > Austin Clark > KR2S > Pascagoula MS > itac@datasync.com > www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: welfel@open.org > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com Hi Austin, I've had 2 RST intercoms and also 4 Headsets with boom microphones and I can say they are hard to beat for the price. I made up all 6 kits and used them in a 1975 Skyhauk 2 and also in a 1954 Tri-Pacer. Go for it, They work great. Either use them on a 9 volt battery or the power system you have in the air craft. Still working on my KR2 I started 6 years ago. 80% done and its stagnating. Might even sell it. $5000.00 and i've already got $8000.00 stuck in it and about 1600 hours, Any buyers out there? Bob Welfel --- Woodburn, Or. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: John Esch Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:49:17 -0800 X-Message-Number: 15 Don't tell me you are giving up Bob? John F. Esch Salem, OR Bob and Grace Welfel wrote: > Austin Clark wrote: > > > > Netters, > > > > I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and > > was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of > > the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits > > starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for > > the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering > > on my web page. > > > > Austin Clark > > KR2S > > Pascagoula MS > > itac@datasync.com > > www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: welfel@open.org > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Hi Austin, > I've had 2 RST intercoms and also 4 Headsets with boom microphones and > I can say they are hard to beat for the price. I made up all 6 kits and > used them in a 1975 Skyhauk 2 and also in a 1954 Tri-Pacer. Go for it, > They work great. Either use them on a 9 volt battery or the power > system you have in the air craft. Still working on my KR2 I started 6 > years ago. 80% done and its stagnating. Might even sell it. $5000.00 and > i've already got $8000.00 stuck in it and about 1600 hours, Any buyers > out there? > Bob Welfel --- Woodburn, Or. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jesch@cyberis.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: David Moore Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:40:04 +0000 X-Message-Number: 16 Austin, I built a 2 place intercom from RST a couple of years ago, it works great. I take it with me when I rent a aircraft, its portable and is battery operated. In fact I just ordered the expansion box to make it a four place. I'm also have the audio panel and two sets of head set to finish building. Everything has been straight forward and easy to assemble. I just wish he still offered the 720 channel Nav/Com radio. Dave Moore At 05:36 PM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >Netters, > >I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and >was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of >the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits >starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for >the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering >on my web page. > >Austin Clark >KR2S >Pascagoula MS >itac@datasync.com >www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: dgmoore1@gte.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > David G. Moore mailto:dgmoore1@gte.net Henderson, Nevada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: NFCKR3@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:16:30 EST X-Message-Number: 17 I don't know about the intercom but they sure don't support their radios! I have called three times about a problem I have with one of their radios and ...still no help. When I asked about sending it back he said that he didn't have a technician! Also there are sone inexpensive intercoms that function well and have support! Skip ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Price for Headsup Display From: "RONALD R. EASON" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:42:59 -0600 X-Message-Number: 18 We have complied the cost of our Heads-up Display for Aircraft. It is derived from and uses Pontiac Grand Prix and Bonneville Headsup Display which has been selling on about 15% of Pontiacs built. We have assembled a Air Velocity Sensor that drives the Display in lieu of a pulse counter in the transmition. I will display the Air Speed on the Windscreen/Instrument Panel along with other engine alarms and indicators ( identical to the auto type ). It is not offered to replace your Airspeed Indicator but to supplement it on the windscreen. I have developed ti for my KR2. We have a limited quanity available and we are making them available to the KR builders the first. You can see some developement pics at our web site http://www.jrl-engineering.com. better pics will be available on the wed site soon. The price is $575.00 each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: Mike Mims Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:49:00 -0800 X-Message-Number: 19 David Moore wrote: > << I built a 2 place intercom from RST a couple of years ago, it works great. I > take it with me when I rent a aircraft, its portable and is battery > operated. In fact I just ordered the expansion box to make it a four place.>>>> FWIW, I built one of these units over 10 years ago. I am sure it has over 2000 hours of usage and has NEVER caused me any trouble. I plan to mount it in my KR when the time comes. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: retract or not From: Mike Mims Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:53:20 -0800 X-Message-Number: 20 David McKelvey wrote: > << I have no tail dragger time, but thats easy to fix, it's just the > short > fuselage that makes me nervous. What do you think?>>> > You may want to consider the fact that RR doesn't even offer the retract system any longer. That should be telling you something eh? :o) Seriously I would build it as a fixed gear version if I were you. By the way, you will not lose any speed converting to the fixed gear. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Aeropoxy question From: "Oscar Zuniga" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:41:14 PST X-Message-Number: 21 I do thank everyone for the excellent words about care and feeding of epoxy resins. Jeb too, for the very typical scenario about oozing, running, sticking, and not having enough of stuff. Epoxy happens, eh? Just want to say that I didn't necessarily choose Aeropoxy for any reason other than that it was available at a considerable savings over what it costs from the usual sources, because the guy backed out of building his plane and wanted to unload it. New, fresh, unopened containers. I will be using vinylester on my wing fuel tanks however, despite everybody's comments about the smell of the stuff, due to its outstanding resistance to fuel. So don't try to stop me ;o) Oscar Zuniga website at http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/5610/ Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Ellison carby manifold From: "John Martindale" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:10:42 X-Message-Number: 22 Hello all from another Aussie builder. Can someone please advise whether installation of the "above engine" intake manifold for the Ellison EFS-2 TBI carby, as described on their internet page, would require rework of the standard KR2 upper cowl to fit. Any other brief advice on alternative carby setup on 2180cc VW also greatly appreciated. Regards John Martindale (email. john.martindale@bigpond.com.au). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Intercom Kit from RST From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:31:36 -0500 X-Message-Number: 23 I built the 2 place one for my 150 and it worked fine for about 4 years then it started to crap out and the co pilots side would only work with a cheap headset. The unit never did work well with my DC headset but did work ok with the cheaper headsets. I understand KR's are fairly noisy so you may want to get a good headset that offers a large db noise reduction. It takes 3 db to make a noticeable change in noise level. About 20 db is good attenuation. W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: Austin Clark > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Intercom Kit from RST > Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 6:36 PM > > Netters, > > I am considering ordering the 4 place intercom kit from RST Engineering and > was wondering if anyone on the net has one. If so, what is your opinion of > the quality. The price seems right at $115.00 and he has headset kits > starting at $74.00. As I recall, he estimates 8 hours construction time for > the intercom kit. If anyone is interested, I have a link to RST Engineering > on my web page. > > Austin Clark > KR2S > Pascagoula MS > itac@datasync.com > www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com