From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 12:17 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: March 28, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Sunday, March 28, 1999. 1. Re: Spar question 2. Re: Vertical Stab Offset 3. Vertical Stab twist 4. Online manual/FAQ/whatever -- Call for Volunteers 5. Foam - Any comments on this type? 6. Wing incidence 7. Re: Foam - Any comments on this type? 8. NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 9. Updated Web Page 10. RE: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 11. composite materials and laminating systems 12. Re:welcome 13. Re: composite materials and laminating systems 14. Re: composite materials and laminating systems 15. Re: Online manual/FAQ/whatever -- Call for Volunteers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spar question From: "Richard Parker" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:41:49 PST X-Message-Number: 1 I would think it must have to be otherwise it wouldnt be perpendicular to the spares and wont offer any compression strenght. RP >From: Mike Mims >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Re: Spar question >Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:59:37 -0800 > >HAshraf@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> The spar stock I have is 84" for both front and back. If I cut the front one by 1.0" then I am not too sure how the wing rib is going to fit. >> > >The outer wing rib doesn't have to be parallel to the centerline of the >aircraft does it? If it does I need to rip mine back apart! :o) > >-- >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... >mailto:mikemims@home.com >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Aliso Viejo Ca >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Vertical Stab Offset From: "Richard Parker" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:48:20 PST X-Message-Number: 2 The kr is built without any offset however the engine installation info (that you dont get automatically with the plans) shows an offset in the engine mount to counter the left turning tendency. Rich Parker >It's common practice in aircraft design to offset the vertical stabilizer to >"offset torque". >In my very old error prone KR2 plans, it appears the fin is set at >centertline. > >For those of you who're flying, is it necessary to hold left rudder or add a >rudder trim tab? > >Ready to do it ... Ron Freiberger > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Vertical Stab twist From: "Richard Parker" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:59:40 PST X-Message-Number: 3 >have it in there whether they want it or not. :) Indirectly; the top of the >rudder on a lot of the planes I have seen curves off to one side or the >other. This would be noticed looking toward the front of the plane from the >back. >Robert Covington Good point put this one in the manual. Its hard to keep the tailpost and forward vert spar on the centerline without any twist. I clamped a 4 foot long peice of wood on the top of the rudder and pulled it slightly to one side so that it was parallel to the centerline. I had a peice of string tied to it and a weight hanging to hold the parallel. I left it there while glassed it. Voila! no twist RP Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Online manual/FAQ/whatever -- Call for Volunteers From: Kimball Anderson Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:32:25 -0500 X-Message-Number: 4 Hello, everyone. I'm posting the following to the new Project Viking mailing list and to KRNet, as well. It should be the first and last post to KRNet from me regarding this topic. If you don't want to read it, hit your delete button or key now. If anybody wants to flame me about this post, flame me direct. Don't take up any more KRNet time. I spent a few hours this morning browsing the space Steve Eberhart set up for us and looking at a few of the web sites listed on the KRNet web site. From what I'm seeing, all I'm going to be able to do with the web sites is make a page of links to various people's projects. This would be a worthwhile project, of course, and I think I'll keep at it bit by bit, but my point is that it'll just be another links page -- a little more organized than some, but still a links page. What we really want to do is have various people volunteer to do a chapter, as Mark Langford initially proposed, and have them show not just what they've done (which is what I'm finding on the web sites) but _how_ they've done it, as well. With that in mind, I guess it's now time to see how much enthusiasm we can really generate for the project. This is a call for volunteers to author chapters. What follows is the list of topics Mark posted a few days ago: 1) Work Area and Tools Required 2) Composite Techniques and Products 3) Fuselage Sides 4) Boat Construction 5) Horizontal Stabilizer and Elevator 6) Vertical Stabilizer, Rudder and Antenna 7) Main Center Spar 8) Aft Center Spar 9) Main Outboard Spars 10) Aft Outboard Spars 11) Wing Attach Fitting Installation 12) Aft Deck These categories aren't set in stone, so if you'd like to author something on another KR-related subject, I'm sure we can accomodate you. It would be nice to have more than one person for each category so that we can get a variety of techniques demonstrated. If anyone is hesitant to contribute due to lack of experience with HTML, technical writing, or whatever, I'm sure we can get you some help with such matters. Any volunteers (or flamers) should email me direct. Thanks for your time. Kimball Anderson isleno@hargray.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Foam - Any comments on this type? From: "Rich Hubka" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:22:18 -0700 X-Message-Number: 5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE78EB.B65C42E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone in our group tried this foam? Core-Cell from ATC Chemicals. If not and you check out the site, please comment. =20 I was visiting a web site of someone building a "Vision" aircraft. Here = is a partial quote from the builder: "After much research I have decided to work with the Core-Cell style = foam from ATC Chemicals in Oakville Ontario. This product is made in = Canada and is widely used in the boat building industry around the = world. They have a very wide selection of planking thickness and = densities to choose from and have the types required by the aircraft = designer at American Affordable Aircraft Ltd." The Internet site for ATC Chemicals is: http://www.atc-chem.com/ The Vision aircraft site was: = http://www.cadvision.com/aline/constlog.html Rick Hubka Calgary, Alberta Canada ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE78EB.B65C42E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone in our group tried this foam?  = Core-Cell from=20 ATC Chemicals.
 
If not and you check out the site, please=20 comment.
 
I was visiting a web site of someone building a=20 "Vision" aircraft.  Here is a partial quote from the=20 builder:
"After much research I have decided to work = with the=20 Core-Cell style foam from ATC Chemicals in Oakville Ontario. This = product is=20 made in Canada and is widely used in the boat building industry around = the=20 world. They have a very wide selection of planking thickness and = densities to=20 choose from and have the types required by the aircraft designer at = American=20 Affordable Aircraft Ltd."
 
The Internet site for ATC Chemicals is: http://www.atc-chem.com/
The Vision aircraft site was: http://www.cadvisio= n.com/aline/constlog.html
 
Rick Hubka
Calgary, Alberta =20 Canada
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE78EB.B65C42E0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Wing incidence From: "Richard Parker" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:23:02 PST X-Message-Number: 6 Thanks to all you guys who helped out with the wing incidence. I needed to put about .640 shim under the rear spar to give me 2 degrees decolage Which leads me to another question How did you guys clamp the 5/8 x 5/8 square stock onto the spars and the fuselage skin? and do you do it on the inside on the rear spar as well? Rich Parker richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm Jaffrey, NH Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Foam - Any comments on this type? From: "RONALD R. EASON" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:52:47 -0600 X-Message-Number: 7 At 07:22 AM 3/28/99 -0700, you wrote: The foam is polyester not urathane. Polyester is not as heat tolarent as urathane. It may not hold it's shape or dimensions when exposed to the elevated temperatures of the tarmac. Inquire about the elevated temperature and any outgasing or post curing needed to apply it to this type of hot environment. Ron >Has anyone in our group tried this foam? Core-Cell from ATC Chemicals. > >If not and you check out the site, please comment. > >I was visiting a web site of someone building a "Vision" aircraft. Here is a partial quote from the builder: >"After much research I have decided to work with the Core-Cell style foam from ATC Chemicals in Oakville Ontario. This product is made in Canada and is widely used in the boat building industry around the world. They have a very wide selection of planking thickness and densities to choose from and have the types required by the aircraft designer at American Affordable Aircraft Ltd." > >The Internet site for ATC Chemicals is: http://www.atc-chem.com/ >The Vision aircraft site was: http://www.cadvision.com/aline/constlog.html > >Rick Hubka >Calgary, Alberta Canada > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 From: GREG S MARTIN Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:03:27 -0800 X-Message-Number: 8 I have the plot layout for the airfoil. I seem to be getting the idea that I need to make the rear spar a little toller. Question! Can I put a spar cap on the inner spar and rebuild the outer spars. Or should I just unhook cables etc. and build a new inner spar. As I'm readly to start cutting my ribs and set foam. I'm not sure of the load that the rear spar caries........Help! Greg Martin Bakersfeild, CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Updated Web Page From: "caryh" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:12:15 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr2.htm Ottawa Ontario Canada Finally got time to updated my web page. Only 1 extra section. All last summer I goofed off and only re-built an elevator. Mind you, I needed all that goofy time to recover from the experience but... Small change to web site. May not be worth going to look at it but it is progress. - Cary - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:17:22 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 > Question! Can I put a spar cap on the inner spar and rebuild the outer > spars. Or should I just unhook cables etc. and build a new inner spar. > As I'm readly to start cutting my ribs and set foam. Yep, you can "laminate" a strip of spruce to the top of the aft spar, as long as there are no breaks in it from end to end. You'll just get some extra strength in the positive g direction, which is not a terrible thing. You could do the same thing on the outboard spars too. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: composite materials and laminating systems From: "John M. Wadleigh" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:33:28 -0700 X-Message-Number: 11 3/29/99 Since I am new at this, I thought I would share my new experience. I got the composite practice set from aircraft spruce (I understand they no longer sell this). The ez poxy had to be carefully mixed, but was easy to work with. The fiberglass easily adsorbed the ez poxy. The odor was not bad at all. West system epoxy was recommended by an airport friend. This is great to work with! Instead of careful weighing or measuring, there is a pump system which makes getting the right amounts easy. With each pump from the large can, there is one pump from the small can. Getting the right amounts, and mixing is easy and quick. There is very little odor (which is not bad at all), and the fiberglass adsorbed the material well. For the fun of it, I bought a small amount of the lightest weight kevlar available from aircraft spruce. The ez poxy and the west system epoxy would not penetrate the kevlar. These epoxies just laid on either side of the kevlar - And once cured the kevlar would not stick to urethane foam or wood. According to aircraft spruce, kevlar works best with vinyl esther. I purchased derakane vinyl esther resin. The vinyl esther resin did no better. The vinyl esther resin did not penetrate the kevlar - and the kevlar/vinyl esther combo also did not stick to wood or to foam. Also, the vinyl esther resin smelled awful - I had to take the small experiment out of the garage and away from the house. As I said, this is all a new experience for me. I have not tried carbon fiber yet. But, so far I would recommend fiberglass and the west system epoxy. I have finished glasssing the Diehl main gear. The peel ply sure makes the sanding/finishing much easier. I hope this is helpful to other rookies like me. John Wadleigh KR2S Tucson,Az jwnw1@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re:welcome From: David Moore Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:28:55 -0800 X-Message-Number: 12 Dene and Bobby, The last flight made by Ken Rand was in a KR2, and his last fill up was in Amarillo, Tex. he ran out of fuel just past Apple Valley, Calif. My neighbor when I lived in Calif., was driving home when he saw the plane come in low and crash, he said it was in blowing snow and fog. He said there was no fuel in the tanks or on the ground around the crash site. I,m not positive but I believe that is about 1200 miles. Dave Moore At 09:37 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:59 PM 03/22/1999, you wrote: >> In the meantime can >>anyone tell me what the longest distance is that a KR has flown without >>refuelling. >>Dene Collett > >That's what Ken Rand was trying to prove when he died. From Lakeland, FL. >he refueled once in Houston,TX(I think) and almost made home to Huntington >Beach,CA, of course that was a KR1. At least that what I heard. > > Bobby Muse > mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com > Wimberly, TX > > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: dgmoore1@gte.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > David Moore mailto:dgmoore1@gte.net Henderson, Nevada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: composite materials and laminating systems From: Mike Mims Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:57:58 -0800 X-Message-Number: 13 "John M. Wadleigh" wrote: > > But, so far I would recommend fiberglass and the west system > epoxy. I have brought this up in the past and even though it seem to upset a few people I still think its worth mentioning. Last I heard not a single composite homebuilt aircraft vender allows the West System to be used on anything structural. What does this mean on a KR? I don't know as you will have arguments over what is and isn't structural on a KR too. But be advised. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: composite materials and laminating systems From: "Rich Hubka" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:12:36 -0700 X-Message-Number: 14 Excellent composite info John... I've just ordered my KR-2S plans 2 weeks ago. I'm a actually a bit apprehensive about glassing( I'm a wood worker) so I really enjoyed you sharing your experience. I am going to take your lead and play/experiment some before I do any real glassing. If aircraft spruce does not sell the composite practice set any more, where did you get yours? Are you giving up on Kelvar? Rick Hubka Calgary Alberta Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual/FAQ/whatever -- Call for Volunteers From: Michael Taglieri Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:47:13 EST X-Message-Number: 15 >Hello, everyone. >I'm posting the following to the new Project Viking mailing list and to >KRNet, as well. It should be the first and last post to KRNet from me >regarding this topic.... Wow. I thought the announcement that there would be a separate mailing list for the online manual was somebody's attempt at humor, but I guess it's really going to happen. Best of luck, and I hope no Bellanca owners get confused by the title.... Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com