From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 1:23 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: March 31, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Wednesday, March 31, 1999. 1. Re: West Systems 2. Re: West Systems 3. new airfoil website 4. Re: KR w/AC 5. Re: new airfoil website 6. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 7. Accident Report 8. interest 9. happy99 is in KR-Net list 10. widening the fuselage 11. Re: interest 12. Make a canopy 13. Re: interest 14. Re: nose wheel mounting 15. Re: epoxy 16. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 17. Re: epoxy 18. Re: Accident Report 19. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 20. Re: epoxy 21. Re: Make a canopy (stefs canopy) 22. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 23. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 24. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 25. Re: Oops - fuel for the fire 26. Re: KR-Net get together at Sun N fun 27. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 28. Re: KR Dinner at Sun N fun 29. Re: KR Dinner at Sun N fun 30. Re: Accident Report 31. 1999 Gathering 32. Wings-Long 33. KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 34. Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 35. Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 36. Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 37. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 38. Spar Caps 39. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 40. Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 41. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 42. Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? 43. Re: Making your own disgned canopy. 44. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 45. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 46. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 47. Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 48. Re: Making your own disgned canopy. 49. Re: interest 50. Changes to the design 51. Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? 52. Lighter Gear Legs... Alum vs Steel 53. Re: Spar Caps 54. Plans/Projects for sale??? 55. Re: Saf-T-poxy vs. West Systems 56. RE: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 57. Re: Wings-Long 58. Re: Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? 59. Re: Accident Report 60. Re: Accident Report 61. Project for sale 62. Re: composite materials and laminating systems 63. Re: Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: West Systems From: "Richard Parker" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:44:00 PST X-Message-Number: 1 I've used West so far on my A/C and the joints have been unbreakable. Also there seems to be great adhesion to the foam on the horiz and vert stab. (mine is polystyrene. 1 glass layer) The only thing I can think of as far as delamination is that once it fully cures it leaves an amine blush (wax) on the surface that must be removed by either water and scotchbrite or sandpaper before putting on another layer or there wont be ANY bond between the 2 layers. If you lay up the second layer while the first is still tacky you get a good bond. The 206 hardener is thinner than the 205 (cold weather) hardener. I think its great to work with. You get good penetration and wets out glass nicely. Do the other epoxies have this wax residue that must be removed? Maybe I'll use something else on areas that need 2 layers of glass. Mind you I havent heard of thousands of boats becoming delaminated. Rich Parker richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm Jaffrey, NH >From: Mike Mims >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Re: Saf-T-poxy vs. West Systems >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:49:13 -0800 > >GREG S MARTIN wrote: >> >> It all of a sudden seems that I have made a big mastake. My entire boat, spars etc. have been done with West Systems. >>>>>> > >Nobody said anything about gluing wood with West Systems. Its the >structural composite (fiberglass and foam) parts I am referring too >which there are none on a KR if you ask the right (or wrong) people. >There have been problems with delimitation in fiberglass layers on >certain glass homebuilts (from what I have heard). I would think just >about any good modern glue would work on the wood pieces. But then >again there's that delam thing always lurking. Why would you use that >super thin West for wood work anyway when T88 or Gorilla glue is >available? I have a can of fuel and some matches handy if you need them >let me know! (just kidding) :o) > > >-- >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... >mailto:mikemims@home.com >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >Aliso Viejo Ca >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: West Systems From: "Austin Clark" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:27:56 -0600 X-Message-Number: 2 >I've used West so far on my A/C and the joints have been unbreakable. >Also there seems to be great adhesion to the foam on the horiz and vert >stab. (mine is polystyrene. 1 glass layer) The only thing I can think of >as far as delamination is that once it fully cures it leaves an amine >blush (wax) on the surface that must be removed by either water and >scotchbrite or sandpaper before putting on another layer or there wont >be ANY bond between the 2 layers. If you lay up the second layer while >the first is still tacky you get a good bond. > >The 206 hardener is thinner than the 205 (cold weather) hardener. > >I think its great to work with. You get good penetration and wets out >glass nicely. > >Do the other epoxies have this wax residue that must be removed? Maybe >I'll use something else on areas that need 2 layers of glass. Mind you I >havent heard of thousands of boats becoming delaminated. > >Rich Parker Aircraft Spruce and Specialty state in their 1997-1998 catalog that "Rutan Aircraft Factory now recommends West System epoxy for certain homebuilt aircraft applications, particularly where a moisture resistant epoxy is desired." I have used West Systems exclusively on my project and am confident that my wood joints are strong and my lay-ups will not delaminate. I buy mine from a third generation boat building family and they stake their companies reputation on it. I can't say anything about other epoxies because I have no experience with them. I will continue using West Systems on my project with confidence. Austin Clark www.datasync.com/~itac/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: new airfoil website From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:08:00 -0600 X-Message-Number: 3 AirFoilHeads, Several folks have asked where to get more information on the new airfoils. The URL I gave the other day is one which details the earlier "GA" airfoil efforts in comparison to the RAF48. The AS series is even more refined, and the addresses to extensive info on it are rather well hidden at the very bottom of the page at http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~ashok/kr2/airfoils/ . I've looked at that page several times and not noticed the links at the bottom! Make sure you check out http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~ashok/kr2/airfoils/tests/ from which the following was taken: Recommendations The following recommendations are made regarding the use of the AS5045 and the AS5048 airfoils on the modified KR-2S airplanes: The gentle stall characteristics of the 15% AS5045 make it an ideal choice as an airfoil for the entire wing. If it is desired that a higher thickness section be used at the root for structural considerations, the AS5048 at the root in combination with the AS5045 outboard form a good combination. The earlier stall and trailing-edge separation of the AS5048 when compared with the AS5045 can prove beneficial in providing the pilot with good stall warning. However, the early trailing-edge separation at high Cl can also result in high interference drag penalties. This fact must be kept in mind. It is felt that the AS5048 may not be a good choice for the outboard wing portions, where early trailing-edge separation may reduce aileron effectiveness. ---------------------- Bottom line, use the thicker AS5048 at the root tapering to the AS5046 at the tip, which will give you taller, lighter spars, and 20% more room in your wing tanks. You can use the stock KR planform (spar and aileron configuration) and get a way with only modifying your spars. I'll try to come up with exact numbers on spar heights for AS5045, AS5046, and AS5048/46 combinations in the next few days and publish them. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR w/AC From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:10:05 EST X-Message-Number: 4 In a message dated 3/31/99 1:09:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, sglover@ix.netcom.com writes: << Does anyone know anything about Lester Palmer's KR w/ AC. I attempted to contact him at the number listed on Mr. Langford's page but it was out of order. I am curious as to what speeds he was getting with all of the mods he made as well as climb, empty weight, etc.. Any help would be appreciated. Steve >> Well, lets put it this way.................Les's version of a high speed low pass is.........a low speed high pass:-). That is, whenever he gets it off the trailor he hauls it around on. Dana ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: new airfoil website From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:04:16 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5 >AirFoilHeads........... Sorry, I got goofy (again) and used 46 where I should have said 45. Here's what it should have said: >Bottom line, use the thicker AS5048 at the root tapering to the AS5045 at >the tip, which will give you taller, lighter spars, and 20% more room in >your wing tanks. You can use the stock KR planform (spar and aileron >configuration) and get a way with only modifying your spars. I'll try to >come up with exact numbers on spar heights for AS5045, AS5046, and AS5048/45 >combinations in the next few days and publish them. The AS5045 from root to tip is fine too, just not as good a fit with stock size spars without changing the chord as the AS5046, but it's doable, and I'll publish that too. There's no mention of the AS5046 on the aforementioned web pages, but it's characteristics are almost identical to the AS5045. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford -----Original Message----- From: Mark Langford To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 6:08 AM Subject: [kr-net] new airfoil website ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: JKM001@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:06:30 EST X-Message-Number: 6 Sounds like you are the man I should be talking to. Perhaps we could exchange some ideas. I to wanted a wider plane, but had planned on using RR front deck, cowling, canopy, and turtle deck just to save time on building. Maybe you could help me out with the process of making these parts. Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Accident Report From: steveb@aviation.denel.co.za (Steve Boshoff) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:04:23 +0200 X-Message-Number: 7 Hi Guys In the past, someone indicated that there was a site of sorts where KR accidents are consolidated. For the love of me, I cant find that reference anymore. Can anyone help. Thanks Steve in South Africa steveb@aviation.denel.co.za ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: interest From: Harry Huggins Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:23:32 -0500 X-Message-Number: 8 I'm new to the net. How do I proceed with a project. Do I buy plans and wood and start chopping or do I need to buy kits and the plans come with each kit. Are there unfinished projects for sale and is this a good way to go. Harry Huggins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: happy99 is in KR-Net list From: "Paul Woolverton Jr." Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:42:33 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 I just got today's copy of the digest, and it arrived with the Happy99 virus. FYI. I notice that the digest was incomplete, probably because of its unexpected stowaway. Happy99 has received a lot of press lately, but in case you are unaware of it, here's a brief run-down: Happy99 is an e-mail or newsgroup attachment called Happy99.exe. If you receive it and open/run it, it displays some fireworks graphics. Then, without your knowledge, it alters with your e-mail software so that whenever you send e-mail to people, it rides along as an attachment for them to open... and it repeats the process. If you receive Happy99.exe DO NOT OPEN IT. Delete it. paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: widening the fuselage From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:01:52 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 >Sounds like you are the man I should be talking to. Perhaps we could exchange >some ideas. I to wanted a wider plane, but had planned on using RR front deck, >cowling, canopy, and turtle deck just to save time on building. Maybe you >could help me out with the process of making these parts. I made my own parts for that very reason. The RR parts (especially the new honeycomb core ones) are very stiff and won't stretch much. Their canopy is also 50%thicker and less pliable than the Dragonfly. If you want to stretch it much more than an inch you're going to have to make your own top stuff. The RR "canopy frame" is a pretty much do it yourself endeavor anyway. I stretched mine 4 inches at the shoulders (which later turned into 3 inches when I removed a brace and wasn't paying attention) which will work fine with skinny me and my thin wife. All the details for making all of these parts is on my web site at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kmarkl.html . Were I to do it again (knowing that now I'm going to make my own cowling), I'd widen the firewall 2 or 3 inches too, and I'd laminate and steam the longerons to make the bends less stressfull (like Dr. Dean did his fuselage formers). Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: interest From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:33:04 -0500 X-Message-Number: 11 Hello Harry, At 08:23 AM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote: >I'm new to the net. How do I proceed with a project. Do I buy plans and >wood and start chopping or do I need to buy kits and the plans come with >each kit. It depends... >Are there unfinished projects for sale and is this a good way to go. Sure, there are always unfinished projects available. Again, it depends. Let me voice some thoughts here for the benefit of newbys.. 1. Anyone thinking about building any such project, wither it be aircraft, boat, dune buggy, or whatever, should do an in depth personal assessment. Start with these questions. 1a. How important is this project to me? 1b. Will I have the will to continue, if/when things go bad? When you have positive answers to these questions, then ask the next questions. 2. where am I in life? 2a. Do I have enough time and energy left over after attending to my responsibilities as husband/wife/care giver/70hr. a week job to do this project? 2b. Will I get personal satisfaction from this project? If either of these questions are no, then you should consider buying a completed project and getting on with life. It is my position that anyone with the will can learn to do the craftsmanship to complete just about any project that is possible for an individual to do. On the other hand, If you will set a number of $$ to spend for a completed project, then start a dedicated savings program, you will have enough $$ to buy a project in about the same time it would take you to build it yourself . Something to think about. BTW: I've had KR2 plans since 1974. This summer I will finally start my project. WD -------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, North Carolina USA mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Make a canopy From: Ron Freiberger Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:39:46 -0500 X-Message-Number: 12 Jim Morehead wrote; Ronald, I too cracked my stock canopy. You said it is not difficult to form your own. I would be interested in a step by step "how to" lesson. Jim Morehead Build a large box, about 4x8, and 4feet deep using hardboard and masonite on both sides, well glued.. Line to box interior with fiber gllass batting... Add six electric heaters in the bottom, those cone shaped ceramic (cheap) jobs. Install a fan with motor outside, blade inside; this is for stirring. On top of the box, install a 3/4 plywood plate with an oval aperture, the shape of which will determine the canopy shape. Your box will leak, so wrap it with sheet plastic. Put two little windows on the sides so you can see how deep it's drawn. Run a good vacuum sweeper with a variable speed controller to adjust "pull". Lay a sheet of PLEXIGLAS on top and clamp it down very well, and sealed to the box with some caulk or mastic. You'll need an insulated lid; I pulled mine up to the ceiling with a block and tackle. Heat the plastic, hold at the forming temperature 'til you're sure it's uniform. Turn off the heaters and fans, and suck it down to the desired depth. Note that this "recipe" makes two canopies. This technique will provide excellent results BUT if you want it to fit an existing frame, you'll be happier buying it from the original vendor. When I needed just one, I bought mine from the Airplane Factory. It wasn't cheap, but it was easy. Ron Freiberger aka ronald.freiberger@cwix.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: interest From: JKM001@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:05:46 EST X-Message-Number: 13 First of all, decide on a plane that you want. Consider the build times, type of engine, number of seats, cruise speed, what you will be using the plane for and how much expendable income you have. With all things considered order plans, study them and then purchase material. While you are waiting on the plans, start getting your shop ready. If you decide on the KR you will need a table 4' wide x 12' long. There are many other things to do while waiting on the palns, but the table should get you started. Good luck!!! Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: nose wheel mounting From: MCKINNEY5@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:07:10 EST X-Message-Number: 14 Does anyone know if it is possible to mount the front landing gear on the fusilage near the firewall on KR-2S ? What would it do to the C.G.? Also, any ideas on necessary mounting fabrication? Joe McKinney5@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: epoxy From: Michael Taglieri Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:21:56 EST X-Message-Number: 15 >> Thanks to Mike Mimms for input that I have not heard before. Are you >> saying that west system is not as strong as other epoxies? Please >expand on this.>>>> This West thread has come up repeatedly, and I'd suggest looking in the archives to see both sides, and also get in touch with West. The fact that all-composite planes haven't endorsed West epoxy doesn't necessarily mean it's won't work fine on a wooden plane where the epoxy only bonds the skin to the wooden members that carry the real stress. It seems almost universally agreed that T-88 is best for bonding wood to wood, so I'm just talking about glass to wood and glass to foam. If I finally get a place to build a plane, I personally will go with the least smelly and allergy-prone epoxy that's strong enough to do the job. Mike Taglieri _____________________________________________ "Fundamentally the marksman aims at himself." - from Zen And the Art of Archery ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: JKM001@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:33:44 EST X-Message-Number: 16 while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you plot the size of an airfoil to make a template? Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: epoxy From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:45:32 -0700 X-Message-Number: 17 The Cozy or canard list is talking about an epoxy called MGS. I have not followed all the listings but it may be less smelly but prone to crystallization if not kept in a heated box/enclosure. Obviously, I cannot endorse it for any application but it may be a viable alternative to other epoxies. Ron Lee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Accident Report From: BABEECHI@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:20:16 EST X-Message-Number: 18 In a message dated 3/31/99 8:59:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, steveb@aviation.denel.co.za writes: > Hi Guys > In the past, someone indicated that there was a site of sorts where KR > accidents are consolidated. For the love of me, I cant find that reference > anymore. Can anyone help. > Thanks > Steve in South Africa > steveb@aviation.denel.co.za I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're referring to, but this is the NTSB query page link: http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Query.htm From this page you can access all of the reported incidents/accidents from 1983 to the present. You can set up the parameters to show you just those accidents involving KR-2/KR-2S aircraft. Hope this helps. Jonathan Lones BABEECHI@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: "Dean Collette" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:31:46 -0600 X-Message-Number: 19 >while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you plot >the size of an airfoil to make a template? > >Keith By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to the plans. Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin mailto:drdean@execpc.com Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: epoxy From: "Dean Collette" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:46:06 -0600 X-Message-Number: 20 >The fact that all-composite planes haven't endorsed West epoxy doesn't necessarily mean it's won't work fine on a wooden plane where the epoxy only bonds the skin to the wooden members that carry the real stress. It seems almost universally agreed that T-88 is best for bonding wood to wood, so I'm just talking about glass to wood and glass to foam. If I finally get a place to build a plane, I personally will go with the least smelly and allergy-prone epoxy that's strong enough to do the job. > >Mike Taglieri Mike, Where does the stress in the spars come from - the wing skins. So, yes the skins do have a load imparted on them. When selecting epoxy, or anything for an airplane, for that matter, the allergenicity or smell should be the LAST concern. The properties of the substance including strength, long term durability, and application should be the factors that are considered during the decision making process. I'm not saying that the West Systems epoxies aren't good enough, I'm just saying that the fact that there is controversy over the use of these in aircraft is enough to make me choose an alternative, and there are lots of alternatives out there. Also, if you ask West systems if their epoxies are any good - what do you think they will say? They have a vested interest in the matter. Try to obtain information from an impartial source. Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin mailto:drdean@execpc.com Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Make a canopy (stefs canopy) From: "Joann Hill" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:38:17 -0800 X-Message-Number: 21 Speaking of canopies, I have a couple photos of the canopy that Dutch guy stef boer.reinders@hetnet.nl made. VERY sharp. If anyone wants a jpeg I'd be happy to send one. Joann Hill N98KF jhill@swcp.com http://www.swcp.com/~jhill ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: JKM001@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:36:21 EST X-Message-Number: 22 Dr. Dean, I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need to keep your smart ass comments to yourself. I have about had it with these guys who think they know all there is to know about this plane or any other as far as that goes. Tell me something, what kind of a Dr. are you? If you want to continue this discussion e-mail me and we can finish. Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: ErikM Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:02:12 -0800 X-Message-Number: 23 At 09:33 AM 30/03/99 EST, you wrote: >while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you plot >the size of an airfoil to make a template? >Keith Get yourself an airfoil plotting program as used for model aircraft. There are many such as Winfoil. Instructions for coordinate table entries are program specific. The programs have features such as spar locations and can do tapered wing sections. For printing I use an old 24pin impact printer that is limited to 8" fanfold paper - you can print as long an airfoil as you want but are limited to an 8" high section. For greater than 8" high sections, you can print a bottom and then a top half airfoil section to be joined along a reference line. Old 18" dot matrix printers can usually be picked up at the thrift store for a song; these will print up to 18" wide sections. Or, you could plot it by hand using French curves and splines ;>) Erik Meisterman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: "Richard Parker" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:20:23 PST X-Message-Number: 24 I dont think he even has the plans yet. ;-) What did you end up doing on the gear legs? I didnt realize until later that you had designed the legs for a taildragger. I'm going for a nosedragger. I still havent seen my friend who worked for 3m and was going to get the scotchbrite. He fell off the face of the earth. All the quotes I got for 7075 or 2024 I thought were excessive. I was thinking about welding up 2 peices of 1x1.5 inch 4130 side by side. Rich Parker >From: "Dean Collette" >>while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you >plot >>the size of an airfoil to make a template? >> >>Keith > > >By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to >the plans. > >Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin >mailto: >Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Oops - fuel for the fire From: "Richard Parker" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:41:39 PST X-Message-Number: 25 Oops, Sorry that e-mail was meant for Dr Dean only. I think I added some fuel to that fire. BTW Dean, for the legs I meant 2 peices of 1 x 1.5 inch 4130 square tubings so that I would end up with a 1x3 hollow gear leg. It would end up being about half the price of AL and even lighter. Can any of you M.E.'s calculate what thickness of 2024 Alum that would be equal to? Rich Parker (putting flamesuit on) >From: "Richard Parker" >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:20:23 PST > > >I dont think he even has the plans yet. ;-) > >What did you end up doing on the gear legs? I didnt realize until later >that you had designed the legs for a taildragger. I'm going for a >nosedragger. I still havent seen my friend who worked for 3m and was >going to get the scotchbrite. He fell off the face of the earth. All the >quotes I got for 7075 or 2024 I thought were excessive. I was thinking >about welding up 2 peices of 1x1.5 inch 4130 side by side. > > >Rich Parker > >>From: "Dean Collette" > >>>while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do >you >>plot >>>the size of an airfoil to make a template? >>> >>>Keith >> >> >>By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick >to >>the plans. >> >>Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin >>mailto: >>Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm >> >> >>--- >>You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >>To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR-Net get together at Sun N fun From: "Linda Bennett" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:00:23 -0600 X-Message-Number: 26 To all KR-Net users: Just a reminder - there is a KR-Net get together at Sun N fun on Monday, April 12 at approximately 5:30 PM. Stop by our booth in Building A, Booth 51 to get instructions on where it will be held. It will be held at the field. There will be FREE Brats, hotdogs, polish sausage & such, with liquid refreshments. Stop by to visit, eat, talk about your projects and what is new. Steve & Linda Bennett ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: Donald Reid Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:07:04 -0500 X-Message-Number: 27 JKM001@aol.com wrote: > > Dr. Dean, > I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need to keep > your smart ass comments to yourself. You just opened yourself up to a series of flames. Dr. Dean's comment was, in my mind, appropriate. The question of how to scale up airfoil profiles is a simple one, but by asking, the questioner showed some lack of elementary knowledge. This means to me that the individual would be best served by sticking stricty to plans. The doctor's comment may have been a bit brief, but it was right on the mark. BTW, he is an MD with an engineering background. I am a professional engineer (Mechanical) and agree with him. -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Dinner at Sun N fun From: "Linda Bennett" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:13:53 -0600 X-Message-Number: 28 Reminder: There is a KR Dinner planned at Sun N Fun for Tuesday, April 13 at the Holiday Inn. Sign up at the Rand Robinson booth in Building A. This is another great time! Linda Bennett ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Dinner at Sun N fun From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:32:52 -0600 X-Message-Number: 29 Linda, Hi, Linda! Thanks for the notice. One of these years - maybe next, I'll get to Sun N Fun. Lots of guys going down this year from my area. Maybe I can get one to stop by to say hi to Steve. Ed Janssen -----Original Message----- From: Linda Bennett To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 2:26 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: KR Dinner at Sun N fun >Reminder: > >There is a KR Dinner planned at Sun N Fun for Tuesday, April 13 at the >Holiday Inn. Sign up at the Rand Robinson booth in Building A. > >This is another great time! > >Linda Bennett > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ejanssen@chipsnet.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Accident Report From: SClay10106@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:17:56 EST X-Message-Number: 30 thanks for the web address ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: 1999 Gathering From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:31:32 EST X-Message-Number: 31 I just called Lake Barkley State Resort Park to get the low down on the room availability. There are now only three cabins left to rent and about 50 rooms. They are filling up fast. A new blurb will be coming out in the next KR Newsletter, so if you are going, you better get your reservation in. Phone 1-800-325-1708 and ask for the KR Gathering rates. Remember the catch here is that if there are rooms not taken by July 25, 1999, they will be released to the public and will go overnight. Once again, the dates are Friday, September 24 through Sunday, September 26. Most of the activity will happen on Friday afternoon and evening and during the day Saturday. A convention room dinner will take place Saturday night. Awards are given out during the dinner. I am making plans with a local EAA chapter to provide for the Friday night barbecue and the Saturday lunch at the airport. For those of you wanting to tent camp by your airplane, it is allowed at the airport. Motorhome sites are also available along with rough camping (I'm going the cabin in the woods route). The nearest commercial airport is Nashville, Southwest serves Nashville and has extremely inexpensive rates along with rental cars. Thanks to Brian Bland and Doug Dorfmeier for volunteering to show up Weds. and Thurs. respectively to help in the setup considering Lake Barkley is about a four hour drive from my house. Any thoughts.........please forward them too me. Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Wings-Long From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:17:36 EST X-Message-Number: 32 In a message dated 3/31/99 3:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, donreid@erols.com writes: << JKM001@aol.com wrote: > > Dr. Dean, > I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need to keep > your smart ass comments to yourself. You just opened yourself up to a series of flames. Dr. Dean's comment was, in my mind, appropriate. The question of how to scale up airfoil profiles is a simple one, but by asking, the questioner showed some lack of elementary knowledge. This means to me that the individual would be best served by sticking strictly to plans. The doctor's comment may have been a bit brief, but it was right on the mark. BTW, he is an MD with an engineering background. >> Anyone interested in airfoils would be well versed to study the properties as they pertain to the airplane you are going to build. Much consideration must go into the stresses applied to various aspects of their design. In the KR, one of the areas to consider is the structural integrity of the rear spar in a design change. The rear spar in a RAF48 was not designed to carry much of a load. You need to apply sound engineering theory, not just "plug and play". Your airfoil is too critical to apply spline, if you don't know exactly what you are doing. With that said, I, nor anyone else is interested in JKM001's disagreement with Dr. Dean. My first thought was also, if you have to ask you probably don't need to be doing it. For those of you who are relatively new to the KRNet may not know this: The KRNet funded, through $100.00 donations, the design and development and construction of a wing tunnel model. All the work was performed my Steve Eberhart. This wing, along with others were extensively studied and tested to provide an airfoil specifically for the KR. For those who don't know the RAF48 was simply "taken" from a Taylor Monoplane and stuck on the original KR. Why try and re invent the wheel. Troy will be flying the new wing shortly. Suffice to say, the wind tunnel testing matched the computer models in all regards. There is not reason to believe the airfoil will perform any other way than what the modeling has shown, The KRNet is not a place for arguments. Dean said what someone else would have said and gave advise, the response was uncalled for. 400 people don't have to hear you yell, you wouldn't do it in a convention room of 400, don't do it here. BTW, Dean does have the background to open his mouth. Anyone can get mad at me if you want, I just won't argue with you on the KRNet. If you are going to float something, be man enough to take constructive criticism or just don't reply. Now everyone have some ice cream and lighten up a little:-) Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:58:56 -0700 X-Message-Number: 33 >>while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you >plot the size of an airfoil to make a template? >> >>Keith > >By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to >the plans. > >Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin The other option is to purchase the templates. I was under the impression that some KRNet Whiz dude would make available templates of the new airfoils. I also believe there would have been a small charge to cover materials/costs and/or development costs that may not have been totally funded. Now may a good time to revisit that issue. Ron Lee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:52:28 -0500 X-Message-Number: 34 At 02:58 PM 3/31/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you >>plot the size of an airfoil to make a template? >>> >>>Keith > >> >>By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to >>the plans. >> >>Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin > >The other option is to purchase the templates. I was under the impression >that >some KRNet Whiz dude would make available templates of the new airfoils. > >I also believe there would have been a small charge to cover materials/costs >and/or development costs that may not have been totally funded. > >Now may a good time to revisit that issue. > >Ron Lee Folks, I'm truly amazed at the response to a fellow krnetters request for some simple and general info. There is no hint in his post on what airfoil he wants to generate, yet several people have jumped on him, and on each other. Why not just tell Keith that a set of airfoil coordinates are nothing more then a list of percentages. All numbers in the set are scaled up by the amount of the wing cord desired. All it takes is a sheet of paper, a ruler and a 4 function calculator. For non critical airfoils such as the RAF48, you can freehand the curves between the points and not be off far enough to matter. Keith, I have an airfoil plotter program around here somewhere, when I find it, I'll file attach a copy to you. Sorry for some of the netters poor manors. WD -------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, North Carolina USA mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:56:11 -0600 X-Message-Number: 35 Ron Lee wrote: >The other option is to purchase the templates. I was under the impression >that >some KRNet Whiz dude would make available templates of the new airfoils. I guess that would be me. I still plan to mail out a free set of templates for whatever configuration is desired to the folks who contributed to the wind tunnel test specimen fund (I think Ron would be one of them, too). Just waitin' on Troy to fly. And I didn't mention it yesterday because that would be advertising, but I do intend to sell a full set of root, tip, h/s, and v/s templates (using real airfoils) for $100, after Troy flies. They are plotted on an E size plotter, to answer Keith's question, optimized to get the most airfoil onto the least amount of plywood. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:49:47 EST X-Message-Number: 36 In a message dated 3/31/99 5:00:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, ronlee@pcisys.net writes: << The other option is to purchase the templates. I was under the impression that some KRNet Whiz dude would make available templates of the new airfoils. I also believe there would have been a small charge to cover materials/costs and/or development costs that may not have been totally funded. Now may a good time to revisit that issue. >> I believe when Troy flies his airplane the coordinates will be placed in the public domain. Also, I think the plan was for anyone who donated to the NLF fund would receive a set of templates. (I'll put Mark and Steve to work here, they may not speak to me anymore) While a bunch of us were at LangfordKosh over last weekend, I was able to see the templates that Mark has printed on a C or D or E series (I don't know which) printer. They were sharp, one piece with chord lines, incidence lines and a neat little addition if you happen to sand through the outside line. I think he and Dean are selling them, once again, after Troy flies his plane. I think the price was like $50.00 or something ridiculously cheap like that. I have been trying to find Steve Eberhart out in Cyberspace to have him repost the pertainent data concerning how the NLF funding started on the KRNet and how it progressed. I think the newer people on the KRNet would be interested in what we have done as a group in years past. You out there Steve, "one ping only"..................................PING.............. Remember guys...........ice cream and a smile!!! Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: Robert Covington Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:18:08 -0700 (MST) X-Message-Number: 37 >By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to >the plans. >Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin >JKM001@aol.com wrote: >> >> Dr. Dean, >> I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need >>to keep >> your smart ass comments to yourself. > >Don Reid >You just opened yourself up to a series of flames. Dr. Dean's comment >was, in my mind, appropriate. The question of how to scale up airfoil >profiles is a simple one, but by asking, the questioner showed some lack >of elementary knowledge. This means to me that the individual would be >best served by sticking stricty to plans. The doctor's comment may have >been a bit brief, but it was right on the mark. Well, I have to step in here and say that I have to disagree with the above. I don't even know right offhand how to scale up an airfoil, other than with a projector. :) But I could write a program to do it for me if I have the coordinates. Which leads me to an analogy. I am writing a 3D modeling program that quickly models the human figure. When I started, I knew nothing about 3D. If the people on my programming lists wrote me that I shouldn't even be attempting the program until I "knew 3D already" I would never have gotten as far as I have. Most of the time, even the people on my programming lists don't know what I am talking about, because my questions already exceed the grasp of the majority. But when I write to some intelligent person on a newsgroup about 3D algorithms, those with the courtesy to respond at all have not told me that I should stick with the basics because my questions are too inane and basic, they simply tell me in laymen's terms what it is I am asking, and how, and they occasionally give me a term that describes exactly what it is I was talking about in the first place. They teach. It is still a learning curve, but one I can handle. But at least it is a _learning_ curve. They haven't said "Newbie, go write something simpler." I would think that a simple explanation of how to scale an airfoil would have been more instructive to the questioner, and no doubt, others, including myself. If one lacks "elementary knowledge", it can usually be given to them easily enough in a few sentences, or a pointer to a URL or book will suffice nicely as well. Erik Meisterman did this nicely in his reply. Answered the question without leaving the questioner to a level he did not wish to remain at simply for asking the question. Answered the question without regard to the level of the questioner. Didn't create hurt feelings. All considered higher have lacked elementary knowledge at some point in their lives. Unless they divined it from their own talents, someone educated them. This KR-Net has become a flaming dungeon at times lately, I have to say it is sad to see. People may wish to think about responses at times, and ask whether it paints the highest picture of who they want to be, or if it leaves room for the other to be the highest that they can be, in return. "Foiled Again". "Where Foils Step In". "Where Foils Fear To Tread" Or perhaps, "Where Foils Fear This Thread". This thread I decree as such. Back to programming. Sincerely, Robert Covington ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spar Caps From: Rick Armstrong Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:48:57 -0800 X-Message-Number: 38 Can someone tell me the grain oreintation for the spar caps on the KR-2 using Dans wing skins? thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: "Dean Collette" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:18:25 -0600 X-Message-Number: 39 >This KR-Net has become a flaming dungeon at times lately, I have to say it >is sad to see. People may wish to think about responses at times, and ask >whether it paints the highest picture of who they want to be, or if it >leaves room for the other to be the highest that they can be, in return. > >Robert Covington Robert, Wayne and others, One of the things that I have noticed frequently on KRNet, is that everybody and their brother are making changes to the airplane. Don't get me wrong - I happen to think that changing the airplane is a good thing. But, what bothers me, is that many people are proclaiming to make changes without ever considering the ramifications of those changes. Just because somebody else did it that way, or, "it sounds good" doesn't make it right. Despite many requests, I will not sell the plans for my airplane, until it has been proven airworthy. The same thing holds true for the new AS50 series airfoils - once they are proven in the air - they will be for sale. I completely agree, that asking questions is a good thing, and I have no problem giving out all of the information that I can on a given subject, but designing a safe airplane, and modeling something in 3-D are two very different issues. Robert, if you make a mistake, you know about it immediately, and no one gets hurt (except your 3-D man in the computer.) If a mistake is made with the design or construction of an aircraft - they won't know there is a problem until the thing is in the air. So then somebody gets hurt. Maybe I was a little short in my post, but, a couple of days earlier Keith is saying that he will use the 2300 series airfoil, with a non-tapered wing, and then today, he is asking how to plot the airfoil - something is very wrong with this picture. If he is asking how to plot the airfoil, and doesn't know the stall characteristics of the airfoil, then maybe he hasn't considered the spar load implications of a non-tapered wing either. That's just dangerous. The point that I am trying to make, is that you can't just "make a couple of changes here and there" and expect everything to be fine. It doesn't always work that way. Sure, I know that these are experimental airplanes, and we can build them any way we feel like, but, If somebody goes down in a blaze of non-glory, it not only effects the pilot, but some of that carries over to KRs in general. Some poor guy has to sit there and think to himself - I told him how to plot the airfoil for the wing that failed. KRNet has many new members - which I think is great. Some of these guys have yet to decide what to build or how to build it. I can sit at my computer and sort out the good information from the crap, but I have also spent the time researching the topics. I don't want KRNet to be a source of mis-information. In these days of "I'm building it different," mis-information is common occurrence, and it will propagate itself until somebody says something. There have been a few flames on KRNet lately. It usually happens when one person, who happens to be way out in left field starts flapping at the keyboard. Then, a couple of people start spouting on topics that they have no idea what they are talking about. Finally, somebody has had enough and tries to set things straight. I guess I'm fairly outspoken, and lately fairly stressed, so it's been me. I have spent years of my life learning how to become a doctor, so yeah, I guess I get a little cranked when somebody is threatening to kill themselves. Tell me you're going to take up smoking and watch me flame you! Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin mailto:drdean@execpc.com Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:40:42 -0700 X-Message-Number: 40 Thanks for clearing that up Mark. I was NOT begging for a personal set :) The point to Keith (I think) is that another option may be available than just free-handing the templates. That may be fine but it may also be worth the slight expense to have quality templates provided. Just my opinion but the folks wanting to start their wings "may" get years of improved performance of a newer airfoil by waiting just a few more weeks/months until Troy flies his great airplane. Tis your decision and your plane. Whatever you wish to do has my blessing...for whatever that is worth (I suspect close to zero) y'all have fun now hear. This really is a great group of folks despite the current difference of opinion. Ron Lee At 04:56 PM 3/31/99 -0600, you wrote: >Ron Lee wrote: > >>The other option is to purchase the templates. I was under the impression >>that >>some KRNet Whiz dude would make available templates of the new airfoils. > >I guess that would be me. I still plan to mail out a free set of templates >for whatever configuration is desired to the folks who contributed to the >wind tunnel test specimen fund (I think Ron would be one of them, too). >Just waitin' on Troy to fly. > >And I didn't mention it yesterday because that would be advertising, but I >do intend to sell a full set of root, tip, h/s, and v/s templates (using >real airfoils) for $100, after Troy flies. They are plotted on an E size >plotter, to answer Keith's question, optimized to get the most airfoil onto >the least amount of plywood. > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ronlee@pcisys.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: "Bruce S. Campbell" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:07:09 -0500 X-Message-Number: 41 Robert Covington wrote: > "Foiled Again". "Where Foils Step In". "Where Foils Fear To Tread" Or > perhaps, "Where Foils Fear This Thread". This thread I decree as such. > > Back to programming. > > Sincerely, > > Robert Covington > BOY OH BOY! The dumbest question is the unasked question. All others are legitimate. Good for you Robert. You saw right that nonsence. Bruce S. Campbell Tampa, Florida ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet to Provide Airfoil Templates? From: JKM001@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:51:08 EST X-Message-Number: 42 I agree 100% about two points. First it is worth the wait and secondly all of the guys on here are great. Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Making your own disgned canopy. From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:20:34 -0700 X-Message-Number: 43 HELLO TO ALL: I JUST RECD A HAPPY 99 FROM STEFAN DEN BOER............................MESSAGE DELETD ASAP ROD KELSO DENVER, COLORADO ---------- > From: Stefan den Boer > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Making your own disgned canopy. > Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 8:57 AM > > Hai netters > I maked my own canopy. > It takes me an year but the result is realy nice. What did i do, when the > under boot was ready I maked from paper a dummy canopy, so i could check > for the space above my head and also on the side off my head. I made the > total turteldeck including canopy and engine cawlings from wood and epoxy. > After that I took from the hole thing(Dummy?) a negatif dummy. The part > where the canopy should coming a put at first an heat resistend epoxy and > after that I put arildite mixet with stone and sand. > Now I hade a solid dummy from the canopy.Now you have too put a real soft > and thin and smoot bed sheet( Under sheet) over the dummy. Every smale > thing that is on the sheet you will see in the canopy. > Go too an bakery and ask the man, can i borrow your oven one weekend. He > smiled to me but would help me. After an few try outs in regeuler coller > (we putt the theets in the oven)we made the first one in nice tinted brows > fiber glass. If the sheet is hot you put it over the dummy and pull it > down. The resullt was brilliant. > After that a made in that other peaces off the dumme my turteldeck and > engine cowling. > If you want some more info contact me. > Dutch guy stef. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: "JEAN" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:54:38 -0600 X-Message-Number: 44 Nicely said Robert. But what other kind of response would you expect from a Dr. that couldn't have a Bonanza ;-). Jean N4DD ( 22 years and the West Systems havn't failed yet ) -----Original Message----- From: Robert Covington To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 >>By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to >>the plans. > >>Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin > >>JKM001@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Dr. Dean, >>> I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need >>>to keep >>> your smart ass comments to yourself. >> >>Don Reid >>You just opened yourself up to a series of flames. Dr. Dean's comment >>was, in my mind, appropriate. The question of how to scale up airfoil >>profiles is a simple one, but by asking, the questioner showed some lack >>of elementary knowledge. This means to me that the individual would be >>best served by sticking stricty to plans. The doctor's comment may have >>been a bit brief, but it was right on the mark. > > >Well, I have to step in here and say that I have to disagree with the >above. I don't even know right offhand how to scale up an airfoil, other >than with a projector. :) > >But I could write a program to do it for me if I have the coordinates. >Which leads me to an analogy. > >I am writing a 3D modeling program that quickly models the human figure. >When I started, I knew nothing about 3D. If the people on my programming >lists wrote me that I shouldn't even be attempting the program until I >"knew 3D already" I would never have gotten as far as I have. Most of the >time, even the people on my programming lists don't know what I am talking >about, because my questions already exceed the grasp of the majority. > >But when I write to some intelligent person on a newsgroup about 3D >algorithms, those with the courtesy to respond at all have not told me that >I should stick with the basics because my questions are too inane and >basic, they simply tell me in laymen's terms what it is I am asking, and >how, and they occasionally give me a term that describes exactly what it is >I was talking about in the first place. They teach. > >It is still a learning curve, but one I can handle. But at least it is a >_learning_ curve. They haven't said "Newbie, go write something simpler." > >I would think that a simple explanation of how to scale an airfoil would >have been more instructive to the questioner, and no doubt, others, >including myself. If one lacks "elementary knowledge", it can usually be >given to them easily enough in a few sentences, or a pointer to a URL or >book will suffice nicely as well. Erik Meisterman did this nicely in his >reply. Answered the question without leaving the questioner to a level he >did not wish to remain at simply for asking the question. Answered the >question without regard to the level of the questioner. Didn't create hurt >feelings. All considered higher have lacked elementary knowledge at some >point in their lives. Unless they divined it from their own talents, >someone educated them. > >This KR-Net has become a flaming dungeon at times lately, I have to say it >is sad to see. People may wish to think about responses at times, and ask >whether it paints the highest picture of who they want to be, or if it >leaves room for the other to be the highest that they can be, in return. > > > "Foiled Again". "Where Foils Step In". "Where Foils Fear To Tread" Or >perhaps, "Where Foils Fear This Thread". This thread I decree as such. > >Back to programming. > >Sincerely, > >Robert Covington > > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: N4DD@prodigy.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: cartera Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:27:28 -0700 X-Message-Number: 45 Well Said, Robert! Glad to see understanding, compassion and intelligence is still live and well! Robert Covington wrote: > > >By asking this question, I'm thinking that you might want to just stick to > >the plans. > > >Dean Collette Milwaukee, Wisconsin > > >JKM001@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> Dr. Dean, > >> I have no idea who in the hell you think you are, but I think you need > >>to keep > >> your smart ass comments to yourself. > > > >Don Reid > >You just opened yourself up to a series of flames. Dr. Dean's comment > >was, in my mind, appropriate. The question of how to scale up airfoil > >profiles is a simple one, but by asking, the questioner showed some lack > >of elementary knowledge. This means to me that the individual would be > >best served by sticking stricty to plans. The doctor's comment may have > >been a bit brief, but it was right on the mark. > > Well, I have to step in here and say that I have to disagree with the > above. I don't even know right offhand how to scale up an airfoil, other > than with a projector. :) > > But I could write a program to do it for me if I have the coordinates. > Which leads me to an analogy. > > I am writing a 3D modeling program that quickly models the human figure. > When I started, I knew nothing about 3D. If the people on my programming > lists wrote me that I shouldn't even be attempting the program until I > "knew 3D already" I would never have gotten as far as I have. Most of the > time, even the people on my programming lists don't know what I am talking > about, because my questions already exceed the grasp of the majority. > > But when I write to some intelligent person on a newsgroup about 3D > algorithms, those with the courtesy to respond at all have not told me that > I should stick with the basics because my questions are too inane and > basic, they simply tell me in laymen's terms what it is I am asking, and > how, and they occasionally give me a term that describes exactly what it is > I was talking about in the first place. They teach. > > It is still a learning curve, but one I can handle. But at least it is a > _learning_ curve. They haven't said "Newbie, go write something simpler." > > I would think that a simple explanation of how to scale an airfoil would > have been more instructive to the questioner, and no doubt, others, > including myself. If one lacks "elementary knowledge", it can usually be > given to them easily enough in a few sentences, or a pointer to a URL or > book will suffice nicely as well. Erik Meisterman did this nicely in his > reply. Answered the question without leaving the questioner to a level he > did not wish to remain at simply for asking the question. Answered the > question without regard to the level of the questioner. Didn't create hurt > feelings. All considered higher have lacked elementary knowledge at some > point in their lives. Unless they divined it from their own talents, > someone educated them. > > This KR-Net has become a flaming dungeon at times lately, I have to say it > is sad to see. People may wish to think about responses at times, and ask > whether it paints the highest picture of who they want to be, or if it > leaves room for the other to be the highest that they can be, in return. > > "Foiled Again". "Where Foils Step In". "Where Foils Fear To Tread" Or > perhaps, "Where Foils Fear This Thread". This thread I decree as such. > > Back to programming. > > Sincerely, > > Robert Covington > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: cartera@cuug.ab.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com -- Adrian VE6AFY Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: EveninBrz@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:15:42 EST X-Message-Number: 46 Good answer!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: RAF 38 vs. RAF 48 From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:40:43 -0800 X-Message-Number: 47 JKM001@aol.com wrote: > > while on the subjecy of airfoils, I am running into a problem. How do you plot > the size of an airfoil to make a template? > If you are considering the 23012 or the new airfoil do yourself a big favor and order a set done in cad. These airfoils are too critical to be plotting by hand. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Making your own disgned canopy. From: Ron Freiberger Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:41:40 -0500 X-Message-Number: 48 Wow! What a clever use of the subject line. This'll be a tipoff for everyone WHO NEEDS A CANOPY. -----Original Message----- From: bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com [mailto:bounce-kr-net-19348@telelists.com] On Behalf Of Rod Kelso Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 8:21 PM To: KR-net users group Subject: [kr-net] Re: Making your own disgned canopy. HELLO TO ALL: I JUST RECD A HAPPY 99 FROM STEFAN DEN BOER............................MESSAGE DELETD ASAP ROD KELSO DENVER, COLORADO ---------- > From: Stefan den Boer > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Making your own disgned canopy. > Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 8:57 AM > > Hai netters > I maked my own canopy. > It takes me an year but the result is realy nice. What did i do, when the > under boot was ready I maked from paper a dummy canopy, so i could check > for the space above my head and also on the side off my head. I made the > total turteldeck including canopy and engine cawlings from wood and epoxy. > After that I took from the hole thing(Dummy?) a negatif dummy. The part > where the canopy should coming a put at first an heat resistend epoxy and > after that I put arildite mixet with stone and sand. > Now I hade a solid dummy from the canopy.Now you have too put a real soft > and thin and smoot bed sheet( Under sheet) over the dummy. Every smale > thing that is on the sheet you will see in the canopy. > Go too an bakery and ask the man, can i borrow your oven one weekend. He > smiled to me but would help me. After an few try outs in regeuler coller > (we putt the theets in the oven)we made the first one in nice tinted brows > fiber glass. If the sheet is hot you put it over the dummy and pull it > down. The resullt was brilliant. > After that a made in that other peaces off the dumme my turteldeck and > engine cowling. > If you want some more info contact me. > Dutch guy stef. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ronald.freiberger@cwix.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: interest From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:45:45 -0800 X-Message-Number: 49 "Wayne DeLisle Sr." wrote: > > > Let me voice some thoughts here for the benefit of newbys.. > > 1. Anyone thinking about building any such project, wither it be aircraft, > boat, dune buggy, or whatever, should do an in depth personal > assessment. > > Start with these questions.>>>>>> > This is all great advise but I would sure hope he has already thought of all this by now and decided that building an airplane is something he can do. Besides building a KR is so damn easy just about anyone who can build a wood model can do it. We have some builders on the this list who have built them in less than 2 years which aint too shabby for a first time builder. We also have builders on this list who were very low time pilots when they built their KRs and that seems to work out too. If you have decided you want to build a plane this is almost the best bang for your buck (and time) I can think of. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Changes to the design From: Ron Freiberger Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:51:07 -0500 X-Message-Number: 50 Each of us in the Homebuilt builder's group tend to make changes on our own. That's not bad, but each is responsible to make sure the changes are appropo to the airplane. And, then go fly it. I doubt that Ken Rand claimed it to be a perfect plan. The plans are " The way I built mine " as KR woulsd say. My first airplane resembled a Spezio Tuholer, but I registered it as a "Ron's1". This because changes were made, one of which was to keep the wings on. You KRx will be so different than the plans (has to be) that if you see another dude making Very high speed passes or aerobatyics, it doesn't mean you can. Many persons can compare ideas and options, but the changes are UP TO YOU; and it's your ass on the line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? From: HAshraf@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:44:26 EST X-Message-Number: 51 I will be temprorily moving to Tucson soon. Are there any builder out there? Haris Ashraf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Lighter Gear Legs... Alum vs Steel From: Ron Freiberger Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:07:16 -0500 X-Message-Number: 52 If you do a good design job, you'll come to about the same answer. The energy absorbtion of a pound of aluminum is about the same as a pound of steel. To make a good design, make sure you specify the same requirements. Rubber/ Bungee systems can be a bit lighter and reguire no special metalworking tools other than gas welding. The Oleo gear on an Aeronca Champ is a bit on the heavy side, but many are going strong after 50 years of student training. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spar Caps From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:19:05 -0800 X-Message-Number: 53 Rick Armstrong wrote: > > Can someone tell me the grain oreintation for the spar caps on the KR-2 using Dans wing skins? thanks > As weird as it seems I guess the grain orientation on the caps doesn't matter all that much. I ran this by the engineers here on the list and (via a third party) by Kevin Kelley (RRs engineer) and we came to the conclusion that it just doesn't matter. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Plans/Projects for sale??? From: "Steve Glover" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:47:30 X-Message-Number: 54 It there anyplace which has a listing for projects or plans for sale??? Thanks! Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Saf-T-poxy vs. West Systems From: MARVIN MCCOY Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:05:15 -0800 X-Message-Number: 55 GREG S MARTIN wrote: > > seems that I have made a big mastake. My entire boat, > spars etc. have been done with West Systems. Is it just fire wood or > what. > ------------------ Greg: Just let me say that I have a lot of faith in West epoxy. That said, I am using Aeropoxy, but only because it is supposed to be safer health wise. Although that may just be manufacture hype. Otherwise, I would have used West with no reservations. I do not want to endorse any one brand of epoxy, but I have used a lot of epoxy including West epoxy and many others brands for many years building boats. The Gougeon Brothers with West System were the pioneers in cold molded boat construction. They did this years ago when the only epoxy available was Shell Epon. How many current epoxy manufactures have done extensive testing with their epoxy? The Gougeon brothers did extensive testing and wrote numerous publications showing others how to avoid the shortcomings of epoxy. I used West for over fifteen years. I never had a glue failure and I never had any glass delaminate. Once you understand the short comings of epoxy I believe (my opinion) you can use just about any of them on a KR. The mixture on all epoxies is critical. If you have the proportions off just a little bit it will fail. West comes with its own mini pumps to help avoid this. Other companies apparently do not care if you mix their epoxy wrong. Epoxy must not only have the proper mix of resin and hardener, but it is crucial (especially with West and other older epoxies) that you thourouly mix it together. That means with a small cup of epoxy you must stand there for at least two minutes and stir it constantly. If it is not mixed completely it will fail. This is one big reason why some glue joints fail and others do not. Any epoxy is capable of making a glue joint stronger then the wood itself. All epoxy sets up with that waxy build up that needs to be removed before you can glue anything on top of it. That is where peel ply helps, especially when doing glass laminating. Keep in mind that the faster the epoxy sets up the more brittle it is. Keep this in mind when you are tempted to use that fast hardener. When gluing wood, epoxy works best on thin of small pieces of wood. If you glue large pieces together you will need some type of bolt or screw fastener in addition to the epoxy. No glue or epoxy made can, by itself, hold large pieces of wood together when they are subject to extremes in weather and temperature. If I were you I would not worry about the fact you used West. Just think about how you used it. Was it mixed properly? Did you do any test glue strips, etc. It does not matter what brand you use, but how you use it. You can use t-88, and if you do not mix it properly it will also fail. I hope this helps. I am not an engineer or anything but I have used epoxy on thousands of applications, it is just my experience. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field. --------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 From: "Andy" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:33:24 -0800 X-Message-Number: 56 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Langford To: KR-net users group Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:18 AM Subject: [kr-net] RE: NLF (1)0115 vs. RAF 48 For you more adventurous souls who >think you can draw up and plot out a set for cheaper, the coordinates will >eventually be published on Selig's web site, as they will be public domain >at that point. But be advised that the going rate to plot out ONE E-size >sheet is about $35 at your local plot emporium. You guys gotta check out Eric Sanders Compufoil software. You can download a free working sample that will do most of the program's functions. I bought the program, entered the ordinates for an airfoil not in the database (the data base is huge by the way) and compared the printed results to a carefully handplotted one. Perfect match in 30 seconds! I was using the program to plot bulkheads, had a problem, and emailed Sanders. He called me, downloaded a fix, and spent quite a bit of time helping me use the program for something it wasn't designed for. You could enter the ordinates for your airfoil, and printout any size you want. I'm using the airfoil "negatives" to check on the accuracy of my wing every 6" of span. The program is about $35 to $85 bucks, depending on options. >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: pickles@snowcrest.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Wings-Long From: CHolder280@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:15:35 EST X-Message-Number: 57 Amen ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? From: "LARRY HALL" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:51:42 PST X-Message-Number: 58 Hello Haris, I recently purchased a KR and am in the process of refurbishing it. I understand that there are several KR's in Tucson in various stages. Give me a call when you get settled and welcome to Tucson! Larry Hall 520-648-0168 >From: HAshraf@aol.com >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:44:26 EST > >I will be temprorily moving to Tucson soon. Are there any builder out there? > >Haris Ashraf > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: hc70@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Accident Report From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:51:40 -0800 X-Message-Number: 59 SClay10106@aol.com wrote: > > thanks for the web address > I just uploaded a rtf file (can be viewed with almost any WP) at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/KRCrashes.rtf It has KR accidents from 1983 to 1996. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Accident Report From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:56:17 -0800 X-Message-Number: 60 SClay10106@aol.com wrote: > > thanks for the web address > Or if you prefer HTML then go to: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/krcrashes.html -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Project for sale From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:39:58 -0700 X-Message-Number: 61 At 07:47 PM 3/31/99, you wrote: >It there anyplace which has a listing for projects or plans for sale??? >Steve > From Trade a plane 2d Feb 99 issue (may be gone by now): KR2 project, boat stage, wing spars, molded parts, turbo revmaster 2100, $6000 OBO 540-349-0834 Ron Lee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: composite materials and laminating systems From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:50:59 -0700 X-Message-Number: 62 I was advised by someone we all know very well to pitch the West System, and go AeroPoxy, so out to the DUMPSTER went West. Since my butt will be at over 8000 ft or higher, Im not taking any chances. Rod Kelso Denver, Colo ---------- > From: Mike Mims > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: composite materials and laminating systems > Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 8:57 PM > > "John M. Wadleigh" wrote: > > > > But, so far I would recommend fiberglass and the west system > > epoxy. > > I have brought this up in the past and even though it seem to upset a > few people I still think its worth mentioning. Last I heard not a > single composite homebuilt aircraft vender allows the West System to be > used on anything structural. What does this mean on a KR? I don't know > as you will have arguments over what is and isn't structural on a KR > too. But be advised. > > > -- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... > mailto:mikemims@home.com > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > Aliso Viejo Ca > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Moving to Tucson. Any KR builders? From: HAshraf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:28:02 EST X-Message-Number: 63 Thanks a lot for a quick reply. I am in LA for the rest of the week and will get in touch with you next week. Best Regards Haris --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com