From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:15 PM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: October 19, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Tuesday, October 19, 1999. 1. [sonexbuilders] KR2 (fwd) 2. Silver Wings 3. Re: New KR-2 crash link. 4. Re: Flat Spins 5. Re: New KR-2 crash link. 6. Re: flat spins 7. Re: Duct Tape Residue 8. Glass Layups 9. Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing 10. Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing 11. Re: flat spins 12. Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing 13. Re: flat spins 14. Flat spins 15. Re: Another Flat spin 16. Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing 17. Flat Spins in KRs, Know you enemy! 18. Re: flat spins 19. Avweb auction site 20. Re: Flat spins 21. Re: Flat spins 22. I found an item that you may like 23. Spins can be fun 24. friday request 25. Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing 26. Re: Flat spins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [sonexbuilders] KR2 (fwd) From: Steven Eberhart Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:25:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Message-Number: 1 Saw this on the Sonex list. The Sonex is basically a 90's technology aluminum KR. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:46:03 EDT From: Eric525m@aol.com Reply-To: sonexbuilders@onelist.com To: sonexbuilders@onelist.com Subject: [sonexbuilders] KR2 From: Eric525m@aol.com I've been looking at some KR sites: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kmarkl.html and http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm to see how another small 2-seat airplane is done. These guys choose their fuselage width & length, adjust wing airfoils, change angles of incidence, create their own engines... I have tremendous respect for their craftsmanship, persistence, and the amounts of technical understanding which have to be used to make their airplanes, but it makes me appreciate what we have in a good set of plans, relatively rapid-build methods and materials, and airframe design decisions that have already been made for us. =Eric #42 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sonex Builders E-mail List http://members.tripod.com/sonex/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Silver Wings From: Warron Gray Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:21:48 -0400 X-Message-Number: 2 Gee guys! I am over whelmed at the amount of people that want KR Silver wings. I can still fill any other orders that you may want just e-mail me on the side Thank all of you that ordered a set, Warron ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New KR-2 crash link. From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:50:27 -0400 X-Message-Number: 3 Hi Netters. This is my first post in about 3 months, and I have a question that maybe some one might have the answer too. Today was the second time that I have ever heard the mention of a flat spin. The first was a Cessna utility craft similar to a UT206 but bigger that crashed a few years back at about 11,000 ft and all 9 were killed. This aircraft also was in a flat spin, and landed flat among the tall timbers and wasnt found for about 4 days. The tree tops were not broken as it landed between alot of trees and was not easy to locate, and now the KR that went down was also in a flat spin. For those of us that are not familair with what makes flat spins happen, can anyone out there help, and is there a way to avoid this, and is there anyway out of this situation other than crashing. One day soon my project will be done and I want to know HOW NOT to let this happen. Thanks, Rod Kelso Denver, Colorado ---------- > From: Mark S. Jones > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] New KR-2 crash link. > Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:56 AM > > The follow link is to the Shelbyville Gazette Times where their story > states Randall Smith and Liegh Kolka had just met that morning and Randall > was getting a ride with Leigh because he too was building a KR-2. > Link is http://www.t-g.com/ then click on headlines. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flat Spins From: Horn2004@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:59:38 EDT X-Message-Number: 4 In a message dated 10/19/99 8:48:52 AM, rbk@orci.com writes: <> I can't give you the aerodynamic specifics of what causes the flat spins, all I know is how to recover from spins. If you don't know how, go get some instruction. I think all pilots should be required to get some instruction in unusual attitude recovery, both VFR and under the hood. When I was finishing up my Inst. ticket I asked some aerobatic pilots about where to get some instruction in unusual attitude recovery. After the aerobatic training I felt much more comfortable in my ability to recover from those types of situations. Once you learn how to recover from an inverted flat spin while under the hood, you'll be amazed at the confidence it will bring to your flying. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New KR-2 crash link. From: "Capps Family" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:03:47 -0500 X-Message-Number: 5 > Hi Netters. > > This is my first post in about 3 months, snip Lets begin DEFINITIONS. A stall is a loss of lift and increase in drag that occurs when an aircraft is flown at an angle of attack greater than the angle for maximum lift. If recovery from a stall is not effected in a timely and appropriate manner by reducing the angle of attack, a secondary stall and/or a spin may result. All spins are preceded by a stall on at least part of the wing. The angle of the relative wind is determined primarily by the aircraft's airspeed. Other factors are considered, such as aircraft weight, center of gravity, configuration, and the amount of acceleration used in a turn. The speed at which the critical angle of the relative wind is exceeded is the stall speed. Stall speeds are listed in the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) or the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) and pertain to certain conditions or aircraft configurations, e.g., landing configuration. Other specific operational speeds are calculated based upon the aircraft's stall speed in the landing configuration. Airspeed values specified in the AFM or POH may vary under different circumstances. Factors such as weight, center of gravity, altitude, temperature, turbulence, and the presence of snow, ice, or frost on the wings will affect an aircraft's stall speed. To thoroughly understand the stall/spin phenomenon, some basic factors affecting aircraft aerodynamics and flight should be reviewed with particular emphasis on their relation to stall speeds. SPINS. A spin in a small airplane or glider is a controlled or uncontrolled maneuver m which the glider or airplane descends in a helical path while flying at an angle of attack greater than the angle of maximum lift. Spins result from aggravated stalls in either a slip or a skid. If a stall does not occur, a spin cannot occur. In a stall, one wing will often drop before the other and the nose will yaw in the direction of the low wing. TYPES OF SPINS. a. An incipient spin is that portion of a spin from the time the airplane stalls and rotation starts, until the spin becomes fully developed. Incipient spins that are not allowed to develop into a steady state spin are commonly used as an introduction to spin training and recovery techniques. b. A fully developed spin occurs when the aircraft anguiar rotation rates, airspeed, and vertical speed are stabilized from turn-to-turn in a flight path that is close to vertical. c. A flat spin is characterized by a near level pitch and roll attitude with the spin axis near the CG of the airplane. Recovery from a flat spin may be extremely difficult and, in some cases, impossible. SPIN RECOVERY. Before flying any aircraft, in which spins are to be conducted, the pilot should be familiar with the operating characteristics and standard operating procedures, including spin recovery techniques, specified in the approved AFM or POH. Blue Skies; Larry Larry A. Capps cappsfan@ameritech.net Naperville, IL ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Kelso To: KR-net users group Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 6:50 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: New KR-2 crash link. > Hi Netters. > > This is my first post in about 3 months, and I have a question that maybe > some one might have the answer too. Today was the second time that I have > ever heard the mention of a flat spin. The first was a Cessna utility > craft similar to a UT206 but bigger that crashed a few years back at about > 11,000 ft and all 9 were killed. This aircraft also was in a flat spin, > and landed flat among the tall timbers and wasnt found for about 4 days. > The tree tops were not broken as it landed between alot of trees and was > not easy to locate, and now the KR that went down was also in a flat spin. > > For those of us that are not familair with what makes flat spins happen, > can anyone out there help, and is there a way to avoid this, and is there > anyway out of this situation other than crashing. One day soon my project > will be done and I want to know HOW NOT to let this happen. > > Thanks, > Rod Kelso > Denver, Colorado > > > > ---------- > > From: Mark S. Jones > > To: KR-net users group > > Subject: [kr-net] New KR-2 crash link. > > Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:56 AM > > > > The follow link is to the Shelbyville Gazette Times where their story > > states Randall Smith and Liegh Kolka had just met that morning and > Randall > > was getting a ride with Leigh because he too was building a KR-2. > > Link is http://www.t-g.com/ then click on headlines. > > > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > > Waukesha, WI > > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: cappsfan@ameritech.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flat spins From: "Richard Parker" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:05:36 PDT X-Message-Number: 6 Any aircraft that is loaded too far aft can go into a flat spin. You cant recover using the conventional "nasa method" recovery that we are all taught in primary flight training because you cant get the nose over (and airflow over the wing from leading to trailing edge) if your weight is near tail. I believe only a drogue chute will help you. 2 over fAA sized (170#) people and little fuel in a kr can put you over the rear cg limit Know and practice your weight and balance and know your stall characteristics. "no stall - no spin" Rich Parker >For those of us that are not familair with what makes flat spins happen, >can anyone out there help, and is there a way to avoid this, and is there >anyway out of this situation other than crashing. One day soon my project >will be done and I want to know HOW NOT to let this happen. > >Thanks, >Rod Kelso >Denver, Colorado > > > >---------- > > From: Mark S. Jones > > To: KR-net users group > > Subject: [kr-net] New KR-2 crash link. > > Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:56 AM > > > > The follow link is to the Shelbyville Gazette Times where their story > > states Randall Smith and Liegh Kolka had just met that morning and >Randall > > was getting a ride with Leigh because he too was building a KR-2. > > Link is http://www.t-g.com/ then click on headlines. > > > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > > Waukesha, WI > > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Duct Tape Residue From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:32:24 -0400 X-Message-Number: 7 Mark:Question asked and answered. Thats the net at it's best W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: Mark S. Jones > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Duct Tape Residue > Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 9:33 AM > > There is a product called "Goo Gone" available at any hardware or builders > supply even Wal Mart or K-Mart. This is a citrus based all natural product. > The stuff works wonders. I have used on many applications and with no > adverseeffects. Test a small area first. I feel this is the answere to your > problem. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Glass Layups From: "Richard Parker" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:48:37 PDT X-Message-Number: 8 Heres a simple web page I just put together on a REALLY big fiberglass layup. http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/bridge.htm It is out of Composites magazine. Which you all should get. It has lots of alternative vendors. If you need a free subscription form let me know off net. Rich Parker NH ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing From: "Peter Johnson" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:50:37 -0000 X-Message-Number: 9 I recall reading in a composite builders guide sometime ago, (I can't remember who's), a suggestion for cheaply, easily, and effectively filling the pores in the urathane foam prior to clothing and epoxying by painting the foam with cheap, flat, white, latex house paint. The instructions said a couple of coats might be required before the foam was entirely filled. The article went on to say that paint almost completly eliminated the pin-holing commonly found when using epoxy slurry. To me this sounds like a quick, cheap, fun, and probably lighter (after evaporation) method that using slurry. Has anyone any experience/comments/suggestions regarding using paint? If there is no negative response based on experience, I am happily prepared to set up a couple of peal test samples and report my findings to the net. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing From: Ron Lee Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:52:06 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 Since you asked for comments, my initial reaction is that this is a HUGE no-no. Slurry is a proven method. You want to create a bond between the glass and foam and I would bet $20 that paint will prevent a good bond. You would have to SAND the paint after it dried to try to get a mechanical bond and that assumes the paint adheres properly to the foam. Why make the process more time consuming? Pin holes are a problem in the final fiberglass surface but those can be filled easily with the Poly-Fiber system. As you fiberglass, you add epoxy, stipple and/or squeegee to correct fiberglass to foam bonding problems: air bubbles, dry areas, etc. Ron Lee At 10:50 AM 10/19/99 -0000, you wrote: > >I recall reading in a composite builders guide sometime ago, (I can't >remember who's), a suggestion for cheaply, easily, and effectively filling >the pores in the urathane foam prior to clothing and epoxying by painting >the foam with cheap, flat, white, latex house paint. The instructions said >a couple of coats might be required before the foam was entirely filled. >The article went on to say that paint almost completly eliminated the >pin-holing commonly found when using epoxy slurry. To me this sounds like >a quick, cheap, fun, and probably lighter (after evaporation) method that >using slurry. > >Has anyone any experience/comments/suggestions regarding using paint? > >If there is no negative response based on experience, I am happily prepared >to set up a couple of peal test samples and report my findings to the net. > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ronlee@pcisys.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flat spins From: "Henning Mortensen" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:12:02 PDT X-Message-Number: 11 From the training we get up here in Canada, and specifically the training I got flying gliders, the recovery from a flat spin is: a) remove seat belts b) move as far forward in the cockpit as possible to move cg forward c) wait for spin to nose down and become a normal spin d) affect normal recovery I have heard of a few glider pilots who had to resort to this trick. Actually since in most gliders you sit one behind the other, the back pilot ended up crawling over the seat and into the front of the glider to affect the weight change. I have heard of this on at least three occassions, once from the pilot in the back seat. (He now checks cg calculations religiously) Henning Mortensen KR2 - Regina Sk Canada ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing From: "Capps Family" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:18:52 -0500 X-Message-Number: 12 Question(s) Will epoxy adhere to Latex? ...................NO Will the lack of an epoxy bond to the foam core, cause delamination? ..............YES "Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies, farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain" Larry Larry A. Capps cappsfan@ameritech.net Naperville, IL ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: KR-net users group Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:52 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing > Since you asked for comments, my initial reaction is that this is a > HUGE no-no. Slurry is a proven method. You want to create a bond > between the glass and foam and I would bet $20 that paint will > prevent a good bond. You would have to SAND the paint after it dried > to try to get a mechanical bond and that assumes the paint adheres > properly to the foam. Why make the process more time consuming? > > Pin holes are a problem in the final fiberglass surface but those can be > filled easily with the Poly-Fiber system. > > As you fiberglass, you add epoxy, stipple and/or squeegee to correct > fiberglass to foam bonding problems: air bubbles, dry areas, etc. > > Ron Lee > > > At 10:50 AM 10/19/99 -0000, you wrote: > > > >I recall reading in a composite builders guide sometime ago, (I can't > >remember who's), a suggestion for cheaply, easily, and effectively filling > >the pores in the urathane foam prior to clothing and epoxying by painting > >the foam with cheap, flat, white, latex house paint. The instructions said > >a couple of coats might be required before the foam was entirely filled. > >The article went on to say that paint almost completly eliminated the > >pin-holing commonly found when using epoxy slurry. To me this sounds like > >a quick, cheap, fun, and probably lighter (after evaporation) method that > >using slurry. > > > >Has anyone any experience/comments/suggestions regarding using paint? > > > >If there is no negative response based on experience, I am happily prepared > >to set up a couple of peal test samples and report my findings to the net. > > > > > >--- > >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ronlee@pcisys.net > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: cappsfan@ameritech.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flat spins From: KVP Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:54:53 +0200 X-Message-Number: 13 Henning Mortensen skrev: > >From the training we get up here in Canada, and specifically the training I > got flying gliders, the recovery from a flat spin is: > > a) remove seat belts > b) move as far forward in the cockpit as possible to move cg forward > c) wait for spin to nose down and become a normal spin > d) affect normal recovery > > I have heard of a few glider pilots who had to resort to this trick. > Actually since in most gliders you sit one behind the other, the back pilot > ended up crawling over the seat and into the front of the glider to affect > the weight change. I have heard of this on at least three occassions, once > from the pilot in the back seat. (He now checks cg calculations religiously) > > Henning Mortensen > KR2 - Regina Sk Canada > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: PALCO@GET2NET.DK > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com Hej Henning Mortensen Are You danish? Best regards Kjeld Vinkler Pallesen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Flat spins From: "Carlton Blandford" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:38:14 +0200 X-Message-Number: 14 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BF19C1.D9079AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, We had a fatal accident in South Africa where a KR2 went into a flat = spin after an engine failure. It was reported that on final approach a = small lead balancing weight in the spinner cam adrift resulting in = spinner failure (this in turn destroyed the wood prop). The pilot was = unable to keep the noise of the KR down without engine power and the = aircraft went into a flat spin. =20 In the accident report it was established that the KR2 had the header = tank removed and two 100 litre aluminum tanks placed in the wings. No baffling was fitted inside the tanks.=20 No weight and balance sheets were done by the builder or the test pilot. The CG was later calculated to be 4" behind the rear (8") limit. This accident gave the KR2 a really bad name in this Country and = resulted in the CG envelope being narrowed to 6" instead of the plans 8" = rear limit.=20 Wing tanks are no longer allowed. Inspections and CG calculations are mandatory. My advise to new builders is stick to the plans and complete a = comprehensive weight and balance calculation with the plane in all = weight configurations. Calculate the maximum rear limit with the = heaviest passenger (with no fuel) and never exceed that passenger = weight. If you are going to modify your bird get an engineer to check = all your calculations.=20 I've flown with a guy in a KR that was very tail heavy and believe me it = was no joke. We couldn't get the airspeed low enough to land without = dropping into a stall attitude. I eventually had to climb (almost) under = the dash to get the CG more forward. The resultant landing was hard and = left large marks on my underpants. .........................................................................= .................................................................. This post is not intended to discourage modifications but to enlighten = us so we can learn from the mistakes of others=20 .........................................................................= ................................................................... Happy building Carlton Blandford South Africa Building new aircooled engine =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BF19C1.D9079AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guys, 
We had a fatal accident in South = Africa where a=20 KR2 went into a flat spin after an engine failure. It was reported that = on final=20 approach a small lead balancing weight in the spinner cam adrift = resulting in=20 spinner failure (this in turn destroyed the wood prop). The pilot was = unable to=20 keep the noise of the KR down without engine power and the aircraft went = into a=20 flat spin. 
 
 In the accident report it was = established=20 that the KR2 had the header tank removed and two 100 litre aluminum tanks placed in the wings.
No baffling was fitted inside the=20 tanks.  
No weight and balance sheets were = done by the=20 builder or the test pilot.
The CG was later calculated to be = 4" behind=20 the rear (8") limit.
 
This accident gave the KR2 a really = bad name in=20 this Country and resulted in the CG envelope being narrowed to 6" = instead=20 of the plans 8" rear limit.
Wing tanks are no longer = allowed.
Inspections and CG calculations are = mandatory.
 
My advise to new builders is stick to the plans and = complete a=20 comprehensive weight and balance calculation with the plane in all = weight=20 configurations. Calculate the maximum rear limit with the heaviest = passenger=20 (with no fuel)  and never exceed that = passenger=20 weight. If you are going to modify your bird get an engineer to check = all your=20 calculations.
 
I've flown with a guy in a KR that was very tail = heavy and=20 believe me it was no joke. We couldn't get the airspeed low enough to = land=20 without dropping into a stall attitude. I eventually had to climb = (almost) under=20 the dash to get the CG more forward. The resultant landing was hard and = left=20 large marks on my underpants.
................................................................= .........................................................................= ..
This post is not intended to discourage = modifications =20 but to enlighten us so we can learn from the mistakes of others =
................................................................= .........................................................................= ...
Happy building
 
Carlton Blandford
South = Africa
Building new aircooled = engine   
 
   
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BF19C1.D9079AC0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Another Flat spin From: Horn2004@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:58:40 EDT X-Message-Number: 15 In a message dated 10/19/99 4:30:24 PM, Genesis2@iafrica.com writes: << In the accident report it was established that the KR2 had the header tank removed and two 100 litre aluminum tanks placed in the wings. No baffling was fitted inside the tanks. No weight and balance sheets were done by the builder or the test pilot. The CG was later calculated to be 4" behind the rear (8") limit. This accident gave the KR2 a really bad name in this Country and resulted in the CG envelope being narrowed to 6" instead of the plans 8" rear limit. Wing tanks are no longer allowed.>> It just goes to show that all it takes is one individual messing up to ruin it for everyone. Hopefully, the insight and experience the KRNet brings to the KR design will pay big dividends for us all in the future in preventing events like those described above. That's why it's important to abide by the KRNet unwritten rules of harmony (KRNetiquette) to avoid driving off our current Princes, Gods and Saints. We need them, but they don't particularly need to put up with most of the fecal matter we throw at them. Let's keep it short, sweet and informative. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:38:05 -0500 X-Message-Number: 16 Although I would hesitate using latex, I would nevertheless think that if the skins are overlapped properly and also properly bonded to the spars, there wouldn't be much chance of delamination (?). Ed Janssen >Question(s) > >Will epoxy adhere to Latex? ...................NO > >Will the lack of an epoxy bond to the foam core, cause delamination? >..............YES >Larry A. Capps >cappsfan@ameritech.net >Naperville, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Flat Spins in KRs, Know you enemy! From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 17 I message from the exiled prince of swine. You guys building KRs need to read the accident reports. A very HIGH percentage of engine failures in KR2s when there is two up result in an instantaneous stall followed by a flat spin or a spin to impact with the earth. Know your enemy! He is called AFT CG and he will kick your butt if you disrespect him. Those of you who have been unlucky enough to fly a plane that is loaded beyond the aft limit and lived to tell about it know what I mean. This is not like the time you took off in your trusty C150 with maybe 200 more pounds aboard than there should be. A aircraft that is loaded aft is a very bad thing. It can and will kill you. I hate to say this but this problem is compounded in the KR2 because of the low static margin or what ever the hell you want to call it (tail to small and too close to the wing is better explanation). This doesn't mean the KR2 is dangerous it just shouldn't be pushed beyond its limits in the aft CG dept. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flat spins From: Donald Reid Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:50:04 -0400 X-Message-Number: 18 Richard Parker wrote: > > Any aircraft that is loaded too far aft can go into a flat spin. SNIP > 2 over fAA sized (170#) people and little fuel in a kr can put you over the > rear cg limit I read all of the spin posts that came through, and they are all basically correct. Aft CG is the biggest concern. In the statement above, notice the "CAN put you over the limit". It certainly can, but it is the pilot's responsibility to ensure that it does not happen. As the builder, you can also make this easier to meet. Once you get your CG data, it is a very easy calculation to know exactly how much weight you can handle. There are any number of small computer routines available to check the different configurations. Us the to help you make placards and then post them. My own personal preference is to do a weight and balance before building the engine mount. I want to be able to carry two real sized people, full fuel in the wings, plus some baggage. I am much less concerned about the other case, which is a light weight solo pilot with empty wing tanks and no baggage. My placard will be a minimum pilot weight restriction. The engine mount length will be such that I can not easily exceed the aft CG limit. -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Avweb auction site From: Donald Reid Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:54:57 -0400 X-Message-Number: 19 Avweb has a new action site. It just started and it specializes in aviation "stuff" Enjoy the site! http://auction.avweb.com/osauction.stm -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flat spins From: jscott.pilot@juno.com Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:25:17 -0700 X-Message-Number: 20 > > I've flown with a guy in a KR that was very tail heavy and believe > me it was no joke. We couldn't get the airspeed low enough to land > without dropping into a stall attitude. I eventually had to climb > (almost) under the dash to get the CG more forward. The resultant > landing was hard and left large marks on my underpants. > ......................................................................... .................................................................. > This post is not intended to discourage modifications but to > enlighten us so we can learn from the mistakes of others > ......................................................................... ................................................................. I don't see any problem with making substantial modifications to the plane, but unless you can get your CG within specs with every load you plan to put in your plane, by-the-plans stock or not, it shouldn't be flown. As many folks know, my KR is substantially different and heavier than most, but I made absolutely sure that it would always be well within CG limits regardless fuel, passenger or baggage loading up to 1200# gross. I have spun it both left and right with power on and power off although I have never let the spin fully develop. In my opinion, one should not be afraid to spin a KR that is properly balanced. We did capture a right hand power on spin on video tape from the Cub I was flying formation with. Unfortunately, it was video taped on a European format video cam and we couldn't get it transfered to VHS. Next time I run across the lady with the video, I'll see if I can make it into a quick time video and post it to a web site I can't say that I have ever done a flat spin but I did spend a great deal of time riding fully developed spins when I was flying aerobatics. There are two ways to enter a flat spin. Aft CG loading and a normal stall can get you into one that is extremely difficult to recover. You can also force a flat spin with high power settings in a spin to force it flat. It can also be recovered using high power settings. Depending on the plane and the CG loading, some will and some won't fly themselves out of a flat spin. To experience a flat spin without actually entering one, you can do a vertical pull up, then snap roll the plane and keep it in the snap. It will spin on it's back while going up until the upward energy is expended, then wash through into a right-side-up spin. Usually the first rotation has so little downward enertia that it will look and feel flat until the downward vertical speed picks up at which time it is in a normal spin. Kind of a fun maneuver, but I don't recommend it for a KR. Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213w construction and first flight at http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flat spins From: "Cary Honeywell" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:28:13 -0400 X-Message-Number: 21 We are required to do a regular spin as part of our training up here. My first run at it was with an instructor who called it the "Jesus" event. Not having experienced a spin, my initial reaction was a epithet somewhat similar to the title given, embellished of course, followed by an almost uncontrollable urge to urinate. I said almost.... After watching The ballet scene of aircraft pirouetting over Oshkosh, I came to the conclusion that spinning the KR might be an exercise in hara-kiri if not fully trained on spin recovery. The last few attempts at open pit mining via fixed wing aircraft up here in Ottawa were as a result of a low altitude stall followed by a snap spin followed by noise and dust, ending quickly. No-one walked away. Once a year, more often if I'm brave, I go up and spin my 172 just to make sure I know what to expect. Climbing and turning stalls are a real thrill and I expect that most approach and departure incidents can be attributed to the pilot not knowing that the spin will be in the opposite direction of the turn. One homebuilt thundered into the river just off the end of the runway for that same reason. By the way, I had supposedly been spinning the 172 for about 3 years before an instructor went up with me on a local check ride. When I did my normal routine, rpm to 1200, pull back, stall warning-pull back-kick rudder and WHOOSH, my instructor nearly had a fit. 1100 rpm. Not 1200! What I had been doing were called barrel rolls. Oh... - Cary - (almost back to normal) -----Original Message----- From: jscott.pilot@juno.com To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:22 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Flat spins >>> snip >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: I found an item that you may like From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:42:33 -0700 X-Message-Number: 22 Hey I found this little speed brake actuator on one of the Cozy sites. I sent the maker an email to get a price. I think I will install one of these if its not $500. Go to the bottom of: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/controls2.html and check it out. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spins can be fun From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:54:40 -0500 X-Message-Number: 23 Steve Wrote; >Once you learn how to recover from an inverted >flat spin while under the hood, you'll be amazed at the confidence it will >bring to your flying. The other aspect is that you'll also never let a spin develop except by intent. The reflex to jerk back on the stick when something surpriss (aka scares) you is just the ticket for inciting a spin. Take the training, it's important. Ron Freiberger KR2 +/- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: friday request From: "dene collett" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:13:01 +0200 X-Message-Number: 24 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF198C.08971C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi netters I know that it is not friday, but I missed friday so please accept my = apologies. Can anyone help me with an article that I am looking for, I have in = front of me a sport aviation mag dated JAN 98. In it there is an article = titled "Mike and Dick`s round the world EAA friendship tour". I am = looking for the rest of this article (don`t know how many issues covered = it). Is it possible to scan photos and text together? If anybody can help, please reply direct.THANKS. Just to justify this email, I have just rough-cut all the timber for = centre wingspars and will be laminating them shortly. Mark, can you = include the new spar hights for the 5048 airfoils in your next post = please, I seem to have mislaid that info. Dene Collett 51.05% done 80% to go South Africa denec@netactive.co.za ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF198C.08971C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi netters
I know that it is not friday, but I missed friday so = please=20 accept my apologies.
 
Can anyone help me with an article that I am looking = for, I=20 have in front of me a sport aviation mag dated JAN 98. In it there is an = article=20 titled "Mike and Dick`s round the world EAA friendship tour". I am = looking for=20 the rest of this article (don`t know how many issues covered it). Is it = possible=20 to scan photos and text together?
If anybody can help, please reply = direct.THANKS.
 
Just to justify this email, I have just rough-cut = all the=20 timber for centre wingspars and will be laminating them shortly. Mark, = can you=20 include the new spar hights for the 5048 airfoils in your next post = please, I=20 seem to have mislaid that info.
Dene Collett
51.05% done 80% to go
South Africa
denec@netactive.co.za
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF198C.08971C60-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Means of Filling the Foam Prior to Clothing From: Michael Taglieri Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:05:32 -0400 X-Message-Number: 25 > >I recall reading in a composite builders guide sometime ago, (can't > >remember who's), a suggestion for cheaply, easily, and effectively filling > >the pores in the urathane foam prior to clothing and epoxying by painting > >the foam with cheap, flat, white, latex house paint. The instructions said > >a couple of coats might be required before the foam was entirely filled. > >The article went on to say that paint almost completly eliminated the > >pin-holing commonly found when using epoxy slurry. To me this sounds like > >a quick, cheap, fun, and probably lighter (after evaporation) method that > >using slurry. >Question(s) > >Will epoxy adhere to Latex? ...................NO > >Will the lack of an epoxy bond to the foam core, cause delamination? >..............YES >"Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies, farewell and adieu you > ladies of Spain" As people on this list have mentioned before, the required strength of bond between the glass and the foam is extremely low. As long as that degree of bonding is achieved, a better method to keep the foam from soaking up epoxy would be very desirable. Therefore I would love to see the results from tests of latex paint before glassing, and I'd also like to see a test of painting the foam with waterproof glue before glassing. I mentioned once that I saw this in the Newsletters only to be met with ridicule similar to that above. Remember that there are people on this list whose only real contribution is ridicule, so I suggest you ignore them and do the tests you were planning. Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flat spins From: WilliamTCA@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:23:22 EDT X-Message-Number: 26 Friends, It was very sad to hear about the accident. The disscusion of flat spins has been importiant. I don't know much of the history of KR accidents but let us remember that "eye wittness" accounts of accidents are notoriously inaccurate. There may be other lessons to be learned from this sad story. In the world of homebuilts and spins each plane is unique. Subtle differences from plane to plane can make a difference, even in kits. The biggest factor, plane to plane is how accurately the builder set the twist and incidence on each wing. Some planes will break the same way no matter what, and I always suspect something in the wing twist or incidence. Watch airplanes which fly with a lot of aileron trim. They make for bad spins. Aft CG is a very bad thing. I have flown many homebuilts near or over gross, but never near the aft CG limit. Also, I have seen well intentioned people make errors on wt and ballance because of cheap scales. Get real scales, its the most importiant measurement you will do on your plane. William --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com