From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:21 PM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: October 20, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Wednesday, October 20, 1999. 1. Re: Flat Spins in KRs, Know you enemy! 2. 1835 VW power 3. Spins 4. NTSB Report on KR-2 Crash 5. New Crash Information. 6. Re: Spins 7. Sonerai IIL and 1835 VW for sale 8. Greetings and questions 9. Re: Spins 10. Re: Spins 11. Re: Spins 12. Re: 1835 VW power 13. Re: friday request 14. Re: [Fwd: Today's Shelbyville (Tenn.) Times-Gazette Headlines] 15. Dead Engine and More 16. Gathering forum videos, last word 17. hangin' up the halo... 18. Re: 1835 VW power 19. Re: Greetings and questions 20. Update on 2026P and spins 21. Jim: reply to your post 22. Re: hangin' up the halo... 23. krs flying for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flat Spins in KRs, Know you enemy! From: Jim Faughn Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:21:02 -0500 X-Message-Number: 1 Everyone at the Gathering this year met a person that lived after a flat spin. John Shaffer, who spun his in and it went flat. You really wouldn't want to do what he did. His accident happened when I was building my plane and many of the discussions that are being conducted today were conducted 12 years ago. What I learned and believe to this day is DON'T get aft. Most of the people I know will not fly their KR in the last 2". I know I won't and did all my W&B so that even with two 190 lb people it will still be ahead of that limit. (This is why the engine spacers are on the plane.) If you saw me giving rides, you also noticed I took everything (tools and stuff) out of my plane to ensure the plane was in the configuration I established in the W & B. This is so critical I can't emphasise it enough. I only wish this discussion could have taken place with the pilot that just lost his life. Perhaps next years Gathering can have a forum on a topic like this. Inspecting partially built planes for errors and oversight, what to do if you have engine failure on takeoff, what to do if you loose an engine in flight, etc. We have people who can tell you what it is like. I know that my one experience with loosing a cylinder, in another persons KR, and then the engine on final was enough to convince me that you must fly the plane. I happened to be in the left seat at the time getting conversion instruction so both of us puckered. The dead stick landing was fine and we fixed the engine but the lesson was learned. We can save some lives. -- Jim Faughn N8931JF St. Louis, MO mailto:jfaughn@mvp.net (314) 652-7659 or Cell (314) 346-4038 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: 1835 VW power From: "Oscar Zuniga" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 06:10:22 PDT X-Message-Number: 2 Hello, netters If anybody has power curves on the normally-aspirated 1835 VW, or at least tabular data of HP v.s. RPM, theoretical or otherwise, could you please email it to me? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spins From: "David Goodman" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 7:20:10 X-Message-Number: 3 I have watched the messages over the past few days concerning the KR-2 crash back east. This has been a very good opportunity for us to all review our procedures and re-learn a lesson in blood about aft-CG. I will throw my two cents in on spins and mishaps. A spin requires YAW to develop. How the YAW gets on the aircaft and how much is required to enter the spin is different with each aircraft. However, if you stall an aircraft and there is no yaw, you may remain in the stall and even enter post stall gyrations, but not a spin. Though I do not have any experience in the KR-2 (yet!), my recommendation (to be thrashed and discussed by those who have flown this aircraft) is to neutralize controls (stick fwd of neutral may be appropriate) and balance flight (the ball) immediately. If a wing drops, do not attempt to level it, especially using rudder, as this will put yaw on the airframe. As a mishap investigator, I am VERY leary of the "eyewitness" accounts of what transpired in this most recent mishap. Even aviators can often be poor witnesses due to a whole host of factors. It may turn out that a flat spin is exactly what happen, but one would have to see the mishap site and physical evidence to verify that. Dave Goodman zipperts@whidbey.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: NTSB Report on KR-2 Crash From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:27:03 -0600 X-Message-Number: 4 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/MIA/00A008.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: New Crash Information. From: "Mark S. Jones" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 8:19:38 X-Message-Number: 5 The Shelbyville Gazette Times has a follow up story on Leigh Kolka's crash which talks of weight extremes and balance problems due to low fuel and pilot weights. Link: http://www.t-g.com/ Click on news or headlines. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spins From: SClay10106@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:07:04 EDT X-Message-Number: 6 Isnt that what we are all taught when it comes to stalls and spins only thing is arent you supposed to use opposite rubber to raise the dropping wing or if it does spin to stop the spin? I make it a habit to keep the bird in cordinated flight exspecially turning final for landing (when pilots make errors if runway was overshot). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Sonerai IIL and 1835 VW for sale From: "Brian J. Bland" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:49:54 -0500 X-Message-Number: 7 A friend of mine has a Sonerai IIL project and an 1835 VW for sale. To see pictures go to: http://www.flight2000.com/hangar/KR-2S/sonerai.html Basic frame welded up, on gear, floor boards made, seat pans started, control stick installed, main spar box made, cowls piano hinged together, throttle levers installed, canopy frame tack welded, canopy bubble not yet cut, rudder pedals made fwd and aft, rudder cables, tow hitch, ABS wheel pants, spars riveted together, ribs & mod clecoed onto spar ready to assemble, fiberglass wingtips, seat belts, spinner & back plate, some instruments, E.L.T., firewall, wind fold mechanism installed, elevator push/pull rod, all CCP-42 CCP-44 & CCP-46 rivets for inside of wing, some wingskin rivets, some hardware, ailerons assembled, like new prop, arovator vents, Monett engine mount. Airframe only $3000 Airframe and engine $4750 1835cc VW engine, gold case, black cylinders, silver heads, dual port heads, approximately 21 hours on cylinders pistons and heads, less than 2 hours on mag plugs and complete overhaul, magnafluxed crank before installation, Monett conversion block off plates, heavy duty oil pump, Honda Gold Wing type replaceable oil filter, chrome valve covers & cylinder tins, unmounted oil cooler, Posa carb & new Zenith carb, gascolator. Engine only $2000 Airframe and engine $4750 For more information contact: Loris Mandel 918-343-0697 - Brian J Bland Claremore, OK Mail to: brianbland@netzero.net http://www.flight2000.com/hangar/KR-2S/ __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Greetings and questions From: Screwy Squirrel Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 8 Howdy all, I've been lurking here for about three months or so. I've been interested in KRs since I saw Ross Youngblood's KR last May while hanger-bumming here in Corvallis. Anyways, I'm thinking about possibly getting started on one when I get some spare money together(I'm a full time graduate student right now), and had a few questions before I get started: 1. Is this a project that I could complete primarily on my own, or is it something where I would be better off getting assistance(from the local EAA, for example? What are the legal requirements and regulations(if any) for this sort of thing, and where could I look them up for myself? 2. I am a computer geek, and the last time I spent much time in a shop was for a project when I was a Boy Scout. Before that, middle school shop class. Are there any vocational-type courses I could take at the local community college that I would benefit from? 3. Since Ross is bailing from Corvallis for Arizona(can't say I blame him ;) ), are there any other KR builders in the Corvallis/Willamette Valley area? Thanks for your time! +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ |John E. Holeman | OSU Computer Science Department| |754-3450 | OSU Information Services| +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ |holemanj@ucs.orst.edu |holemanj@cs.orst.edu | |www.orst.edu/~holemanj |holeman@engr.orst.edu | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ | So take your time, Look round and see | | The most in time, is where you're meant to be | | For you are light inside your dreams | | For you will find, that it's something | | That touches me. | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spins From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 9 Remember in the certified world not every airplane is certified for spins. Ever wonder why? Not all airplanes can meet the FAA requirement for spin recovery. You can train until you are blue in the face but if you are in a plane that will not recover your screwed. Its just a guess but I imagine a fully loaded KR2 with the CG set at the plans published aft max CG (35% of airfoil) would not meet the FAA requirement either. I have heard they spin just fine solo. This doesn’t make it a dangerous airplane just one that has to be respected as far as CG is concerned. Also the lack of gas fumes at the crash site bugs me. Does anyone know how much time in this airplane the pilot had? Was it enough to become completely familiar with its operation? Did the pilot slowly expand his own knowledge of the airplane's performance envelope? Or did he buy a plane, put in some gas and grab a passenger and go flying? No disrespect intended here but I think these are valid questions. Only one positive thing can come from this and that is the knowledge we gain from others mistakes. FWIW The owner of the last air taxi I worked for had a personal minimum for new hires. He felt that a pilot did not have a good feel for a plane until he had somewhere between 50 and 100 hours in type. He felt so strongly about this that he provided almost 50 hours of instruction in each type which included many training flights at gross weight. Until you had 100 hours in type he would not allow you to carry passengers. --- SClay10106@aol.com wrote: > Isnt that what we are all taught when it comes to > stalls and spins only thing is arent you supposed to use opposite rubber to raise the dropping wing or if it does spin to stop the spin?>>>> ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spins From: "Jim Sellars" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:21:06 -0300 X-Message-Number: 10 David; Regarding spin responce, we are trained to absolutely control the wing drop with rudder, but never with aileron, as the aileron induces opposite yaw, while the rudder createspositive yaw. Anyway using an aileron input will exagerate spin characteristics so should be avoided. If you get a wing dropping during a stall only use rudder to pitck up the wing. Slow flight exercises are a great example of this, keep the wings level with rudder don't use airleron and enjoy how the plane flies at slow speed. Every plane should be stalled to learn how this occurs in this particular model, then recovery and safe flight can be better defined. Go out and get someone to do a decending turn spin in a PA-22-112 Tomahawk. Very fast, but a great experience. Regards; Jim -----Original Message----- From: David Goodman To: KR-net users group Date: October 20, 1999 11:24 AM Subject: [kr-net] Spins >I have watched the messages over the past few days concerning the KR-2 >crash back east. This has been a very good opportunity for us to all review >our procedures and re-learn a lesson in blood about aft-CG. I will throw my >two cents in on spins and mishaps. > >A spin requires YAW to develop. How the YAW gets on the aircaft and how >much is required to enter the spin is different with each aircraft. >However, if you stall an aircraft and there is no yaw, you may remain in >the stall and even enter post stall gyrations, but not a spin. Though I do >not have any experience in the KR-2 (yet!), my recommendation (to be >thrashed and discussed by those who have flown this aircraft) is to >neutralize controls (stick fwd of neutral may be appropriate) and balance >flight (the ball) immediately. If a wing drops, do not attempt to level >it, especially using rudder, as this will put yaw on the airframe. > >As a mishap investigator, I am VERY leary of the "eyewitness" accounts of >what transpired in this most recent mishap. Even aviators can often be poor >witnesses due to a whole host of factors. It may turn out that a flat spin >is exactly what happen, but one would have to see the mishap site and >physical evidence to verify that. > >Dave Goodman >zipperts@whidbey.net > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jsellars@mon.auracom.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spins From: Peter Hudson Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:37:11 -0700 X-Message-Number: 11 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF1AE7.65F0A320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi gang, I guess I'll chime in here and agree with the idea that everyone should = get some sort of training in spins (I know there are a few private pilot = instructors who don't really explore that part of the flight regime). I = took about ten hours of aerobatics training in a decathalon and besides = being a blast (and expensive) it was the best thing anyone could do to = be a safe pilot. =20 Of course spins and recoveries upright and inverted were a part of = almost every flight but what I really found enlightening was full stall = handling characteristics. With wings straight and level you sneak up to = entering a stall and immediately pull full aft on the stick. Now you = try to keep the wings level as long as possible with the rudder. You = don't really drop out of the sky so much as mush with a high decent = rate. sooner or later a wing drops but you can still lift it with the = rudder even with the fully stalled wing. it's very hard to stay ahead of = it though, the wing your lifting will want to quickly keep going up so = you have to correct with opposite rudder. You wind up doing this = falling leaf for as long as you can stay ahead of everything but sooner = or later you'll snap over into the spin that's been trying to happen all = along. When you think about how much time that buys you playing safely = in the flight regime that is responsible for most flight mishaps you'll = see the value of some aerobatics training! I wouldn't do this in you KR though...just with an instructor, in an = aircraft with inverted capable systems and of course chutes and = altitude. -Peter- -----Original Message----- From: SClay10106@aol.com [SMTP:SClay10106@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:07 AM To: KR-net users group Subject: [kr-net] Re: Spins Isnt that what we are all taught when it comes to stalls and spins only = thing=20 is arent you supposed to use opposite rubber to raise the dropping wing = or if=20 it does spin to stop the spin? I make it a habit to keep the bird in=20 cordinated flight exspecially turning final for landing (when pilots = make=20 errors if runway was overshot). --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: phudson@iwvisp.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF1AE7.65F0A320 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiERAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYApAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAEtSLW5ldCB1c2VycyBn cm91cABTTVRQAGtyLW5ldEB0ZWxlbGlzdHMuY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAVAAAAa3ItbmV0QHRlbGVsaXN0cy5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA FQAAACdLUi1uZXQgdXNlcnMgZ3JvdXAnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6S1ItTkVUQFRFTEVM SVNUUy5DT00AAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAHgD2XwEAAAATAAAAS1ItbmV0IHVzZXJzIGdyb3Vw AAACAfdfAQAAAEUAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABLUi1uZXQgdXNlcnMgZ3JvdXAA U01UUABrci1uZXRAdGVsZWxpc3RzLmNvbQAAAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAA AAAAAlVUAQSAAQALAAAAIFJlOiBTcGlucwA+AwEFgAMADgAAAM8HCgAUAAoAJQALAAMAMQEBIIAD AA4AAADPBwoAFAAKABQANQADAEoBAQmAAQAhAAAARkVEODZBRUQxQzFCQkYxMTk3NDU3QTVBNUFG NEM3NTEAbwcBA5AGANgJAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4A AAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AOC9nL0hG78BHgBwAAEAAAALAAAAIFJlOiBTcGlucwAAAgFxAAEAAAAW AAAAAb8bIb2VfrYqYYbVEdOZ3ERFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABMA AABwaHVkc29uQGl3dmlzcC5jb20AAAMABhDKD9LgAwAHEPYGAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABISUdBTkcs SUdVRVNTSUxMQ0hJTUVJTkhFUkVBTkRBR1JFRVdJVEhUSEVJREVBVEhBVEVWRVJZT05FU0hPVUxE R0VUU09NRVNPUlRPRlRSQUlOSU5HSU5TUElOUyhJS05PV1RIAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAzQYAAMkGAACC CgAATFpGdaQM5lADAAoAcmNwZzEyNRYyAPgLYG4OEDAzM50B9yACpAPjAgBjaArA4HNldDAgBxMC gwBQoRB2cHJxMhF2fQqA2QjIIDsJbw4wNQKACoEsdWMAUAsDYwBBdWwKbgIgZQumIEhpILpnDxEs CqIKhAqASRfghwpQBBIBkSBJJ2wDIMsQ8AdxIAuAIGgEkBpgLQBwZBrwCcIgA/B0aK4gG8AaYQEA YRvhYQVAFGV2BJB5FwEgc2j1CGBsGyBnEUAdUANwHUHRCREgb2Yb4HILcQuAsmcacnNwC4AEICgZ AD5rFvAH4BvxGtIa0iBm8wfREsBpdhygGmAfsAkAbwVAH8Ee4BYAdAWwBCB36R1wIGQCICcFQAlw B0D0bHkcwHgLUAWwGmAcg48KsR6UHAEO8GlnaCOiYmcHcSkuIBnAG+Bv7G9rGvAG4HUFQCHQGpGX CGEEIB6xYQSQb2IcoP8N4AQgHuocYAWBHKARAAkA+ynBGxFiB5AcMQQgKvAfMvscYAJgYSKAH/Ab AiQxCfDbAJAc4CkacAVAdywQG+PvKvEngRowK6JuHRMFoB2SzyNgJuEq4SERc2EhQCH0+yahGEpP HsAvIREhH5UbAt8JcAWgHOEIkAQgdSGBJfLfGwILgBzhIdAbIHcawyT33wdABGAsIRzTJbZiJ3Ej IK8coRkAI8UCEHUscm4l0/cJ8B8yLYJmFtADICKAI+H/GqAbASXQH0EQ8gDQIdAFEPcigCjhJqFX G7ID8A8gBCB3IoELcDP2bBzRAyAdEHX7HVAXEGEnIDOwL6IJ8Dti1yujOhQ0M20HgGQHMCHQ/SQB cDnSOcMwQB6RA6Ab8vU7omsmoU4gUT4CHuAkEP0vsWsJ4D6xHAE8dD2kLZH3KnErsQQgcDYgAJAC YBuJbSKgZASBJqFZPhEja2TPA2A+sCdiJVVzayQQHhD8IG0WABvQLZFKAB1gG5T/HGAaMCXwKfI/ ASOwIcEmof8eEBcBBcAFsQtgO2EhETxy/0iDK1EncT4CKiAfgSjQGfH/JdBBwS1SRnwcwgOgG6c5 wr9JsToiNNIfMSagG7AnBCC/NnMRARsgL7E6ESQQYRqwfmEbIB6xLVEbwAhgJfAs/0QXPfJM8U9x OUNPIi2AS9E5L7FxdUKBJAFD02dv/x8yPqFJ0T4CEQAc4C+iBaH/MwFPxUiwRdEbsEbdPHEbIP8+ oSNgHzIuUTmhI+EfMj2g/zBAOEFNUUU4TohUShzTLlTfNzJMfj4BGeI+QGFIwRzh/xpxL7FCIx+x HHNTISrwJ7H/Q2FdAyNAEQBbECexP9NFUv878hqwA6BDIy5hJyYdcAfg30oDKNAaURyDNzB5XzQL Uf9lczAyJAFkYyWtHHRdYQlwvx+gAiBGBF5iNhMlxW0EAP9l8V8zYtMbcRvyIbAKQSawrx6xHhMo fw8gIRhMdx2CnyOCL4JdUhqBPgJLUlUl+i51QGpKkE/FA5EiaFWQ8ymyKcFpcgUAQbIbozR3tyog CrBGInNpwCHQbTKkvx6xMfUQ8CdwB5EbA2wo0M50RwBMMBhKLVARQASQzi0YSgr0JdAzNgFAFpAf AUASwCIwWnESBDE2IPotf+JPM9ELgAdABdAZQf0bQGV/4xhGfvR+wQsTfvZgaS0xNDQBQCXQMbw4 MAFADNCDgxmwRgNhyjoMg2IRYFNDakEPQFEPQDZAYQbwLgWgbYAgW1NNVFA6ha98bV0YRRmwBmAC MIUXV7MJgBcQc2RUQFWQTyLBTyrwBcAB0FWQMTmLQCBQOTowNxFwTYhnVPZvhRd0sC0XEAVASpAE kBcEIAnACGBwiGh1YmqzWnGFF1trfQCNYV0H8PxlOgYAH7KBj4KafkQLtv8YtD5ALjIcoTdzNQAg 1Bnx/wGQVWE3UiexLVGGkQeRU/T/GfAypB+kAiAkAS5UGERdYf8g4UvRPgMzsEXRNNEvsY2h/Vr6 YoqyL7Ee8TIxG/JIkv8fsVbyH0EFsQaQmNZzogeR72REVAJIsWQGPybBAMBD0P8msC1RSyEBoFUC Q7mhYFPB/xqBGEQFoUCQYyA0wiXFJDD/H6AFkAcxmFIIcB8jg1CAgu9eYg8Bo3EfUCiWEyIDSmF/ oKIYRASQA2Ai8Z3xIqBu3y2AJBAtgjMyHWF0JpB7+/eBZkeCIOJjCHCZglHyjvC/BPIq8FPTj/RF EZCQcHrAgmQeEG5AaXd2BAD+cIaCGESMgDOgAICstm+R/xsSK+Jn4XmQC3CVgSNAXhFNHOAtj/SD cDc1D2BD/kBAwT3QO5E74K8nGEQTgQIAtRAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcw oBNJdh8bvwFAAAgwoBNJdh8bvwELAACACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcN AAAeACWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjAAAwAmgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAC+ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAygAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAe AEGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBCgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQ4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAA AAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAwANNP03AAAVzQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF1AE7.65F0A320-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: 1835 VW power From: "J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd." Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:37:53 -0500 X-Message-Number: 12 I would like them also. Ron Eason jrlkc@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:10 AM Subject: [kr-net] 1835 VW power >Hello, netters > >If anybody has power curves on the normally-aspirated 1835 VW, or at least >tabular data of HP v.s. RPM, theoretical or otherwise, could you please >email it to me? Thanks. > >Oscar Zuniga >Medford, Oregon >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jrlkc@mindspring.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: friday request From: Steen8751A@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:03:32 EDT X-Message-Number: 13 In a message dated 10/19/99 11:21:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time, denec@netactive.co.za writes: << In it there is an article titled "Mike and Dick`s round the world EAA friendship tour". I am looking for the rest of this article (don`t know how many issues covered it). Is >> You can find a write up http://www.canard.com/. I don't know if it is the same article that you are looking for. Doug Steen Winchester, VA steen8751a@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: Today's Shelbyville (Tenn.) Times-Gazette Headlines] From: Mark Jones Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:12:26 -0500 X-Message-Number: 14 > Netters, This article is from the 10-19-99 Shelbyville Gazette Times. I was e-mailed by some of you saying you could not find the story. Most likely the web site has updated to 10-20-99. >

Weight transfer problems
may have caused plane crash

>

New reports from the Bedford County Sheriff's Department and Federal Aviation Administration indicate the amount of fuel in the gas tank may have played a large role in a Saturday afternoon airplane crash that took the lives of pilot Leigh Edward Kol > ka, 45, and passenger Randall Scott Smith, 52, both of Murfreesboro. >

According to officials, the plane appeared to be over its passenger weight limit (361 pounds) during an initial investigation. >

But a combination of both lack of fuel and too much weight possibly spelled disaster for the aircraft. >

The small passenger weight limit indicated the airplane wasn't manufactured to hold two adult men with or without a near-empty fuel tank, which is placed in the nose of only experimental planes to compensate for the tail's weight differential. >

Assuming the tank was near full when it left Murfreesboro Municipal Airport about 11:50 Saturday morning, that would explain why there was no reported trouble until the plane's fuel level became low shortly after Kolka and Smith did a touch-and-go ex > ercise at the Shelbyville Municipal Airport minutes later. >

-- original story by T-G staff writer JOSH CARNEY >

See more details in today's Times-Gazette. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Dead Engine and More From: Laheze@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:16:36 EDT X-Message-Number: 15 I had a friend who almost killed himself along with his wife after his engine seized on his Bonanza. Back before gps he was being directed towards an airport by Center, he was turned in a 360 dgree turn while they tried getting directed towards an airport. All the while he was fast losing valuable altitude. He came up short of the runway about 1/2 mile. At the last minute he decided to try and save the airplane. He lowered the landing gear and it caught a little terrace in the landing field and flipped the plane end over end. They both were hospitalized for a month or more. The point here is as he says, " just fly the plane only save your rear end I can always buy another plane, save just enough of the plane to save yourself ". The KR2 that I am repairing now is a victim of touch and goes, engine out while climbing out without enough forward speed. It had one person in it and was said to be a little tail heavy, I am convinced that if it had two people in it that there would have been fatalities. I think that forward speed, keep nose down, and do not try to stretch a glide especially in a cg sensitive airplane is critical. I know that trying to just make a little better situation for landing would be tempting, but do not tempt that stall situation because it has bitten a lot of people. We all have read many of these storys and yet it continues to happen. The KR we all just read about may have gotten a little slow, it may have attempted to return to the airport, it may have ran out of fuel and was badly out of cg and was salvageable with engine power and unsalvageable without engine power. We can all speculate but the lesson here is not to ever put ourselves in any situation that could result in the same situation. Accidents like this should scare seriousness into everyone into making sure that all is perfect before attempting flight. I remember years ago hearing Jean Shehan of the old Quickie Aircraft Company say check, recheck, and have someone else check before first flight. He said if most people taxi to the end of the runway in their Cessna, and do a mag check and there is a problem they will return to the hangar and get a mechanic to fix it. He continued, but a homebuilder wouldn't get it fixed, he would just blow it off and go anyway. I can tell you from the number of years I've been in this there have been hundreds of accidents on first flight and usually engine related. I remember talking to Burt Rutan once, I told him that I had bought the Rotorway engine to put in my Longeze and wondered what he thought about it. He said sale it! You are going to be flying an experimental airplane and you do not want an experimental engine at the same time on your first flights. Get a certified aircraft engine he said. I think he is right, it is fun to dream about all these different engine types, but I would say start out with something proven and be as safe as you can be. Learn to fly your plane and then try a different engine that turns you on. At least you will not be experimenting with two new to you things at once. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com KR2 rebuilder, almost flyer Rockwall, Tx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Gathering forum videos, last word From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:21:02 -0500 X-Message-Number: 16 VideoHeads, I've mailed the three "chain" videos of the Gathering forums, and if everybody keeps them for only 3 or 4 days, they should all make it around in under a month. Whoever's last on the list (enclosed with each video) gets to keep it. I also mailed out the "personal copy" videos Monday and today (whether or not I've received your check yet), so if you don't get it in a week or so, I must have missed your message and you need to remind me. I still have four left. If you get one and you didn't ask for it, it's because I thought you'd like to have it, and it's on the house... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: hangin' up the halo... From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:22:35 -0500 X-Message-Number: 17 KRNetHeads, Although it's customary to flame a few folks to a crackly crisp with your last post, I thought I'd try to be a little more constructive with mine. Since I've been on KRNet since the AOL days and Mike Grave's initial beta list, I feel entitled to a few words. I've finally reached the point that I have a difficult time justifying the time that I put into KRNet, especially for what I get out of it. I won't go into my favorite KRNetiquette pet peeves again (I DID say I wouldn't mention it again) but I WOULD like to say that I got pretty tired of carrying on that campaign by myself. Maybe I was one of only a few who were really frustrated. But I often got private messages from folks telling me to roll out the KRNetiquette guns again, because things were getting out of hand. Since I won't be around to do that anymore, it might be wise for you guys to do it yourselves. A few hundred tactful private emails to the right perpetrator would probably work wonders. Although you guys don't know it yet, Dr. Dean took care of one of those guys for you already last night. I've emailed a few of the really bad ones too, but to no avail. Anyway, I can't help but wonder, "why bother?". Bottom line is that I've grown weary of the fight, and the grief that I've caught for it. Maybe it's really a personal problem that I just can't get past. It's not my KRNet, it's yours, so run it however you see fit. KRNet is a wonderful place (still the best list I've ever seen) with a lot of good talent in residence. Contributors like Don Reid and Dr. Dean are priceless. It's a shame that a few inconsiderate people can make it painful for the rest. I'm sure they don't do it on purpose, it's just that they REALLY DO think they know everything, and they feel obliged to answer every question that comes along. I've always tried to keep quiet and let somebody else have a turn, and if the question never got answered (or not to my satisfaction) I'd give it a shot. And they are apparently quite oblivious to the concept of extraneous mail that should be sent directly to only one person. And who cares if you bury your response at the very bottom of two pages of replies? If you were on the digest you'd know for sure! Although there are those who think I'm opinionated and have my own pet agendas, I don't see it that way. I consider myself to be a pretty level-headed individual, and have a habit of thinking things through way too thoroughly before I act. I'd like to think that my recent conversion to the Corvair engine reflects my ability to change my mind when something better presents itself. And as William Wynne pointed out the other day, you can build a 6 cylinder Corvair engine entirely out of NEW parts, and still spend considerably less money than a REBUILD for an 0-200! Sorry, but when I see something this sensible, I have to tell the world about it. My rabid support for the "new wing" is based on the fact that if you're going to go to the trouble of building a wing from scratch, the least you can do is use a good airfoil. I just hate to see people passing up an opportunity to get a rare "free lunch". Many folks have realized the opportunity for improvement, but lack the tools to make the right choice of airfoil for the application. You can't do better than to have two airfoil experts design an airfoil specifically for the KR2S! That doesn't happen very often in the homebuilt arena, and it's sad to see people pass up that opportunity for whatever reason. I've been on the digest for the last couple of days, and I must say it's the only way to fly! I switched to the digest to see if the "withdrawals" would kill me, and I wanted to be able to post a last message. I'm happy to report that the patient is alive and well and has done 3 hours of work on his plane every night this week! I don't even pace around muttering about off-subject BS posts in the basement anymore. So far I've managed to delete those digest files without reading them, so I think I'm on the road to recovery. And it sure is easy to find your REAL email. There are a couple of other things I think would help the BS situation. A working archive search function like Walter Lounsbery is working on should do wonders to keep the same old questions from resurfacing time and again...if you USE it! Until then READ the ARCHIVES! There is an incredible wealth of KR knowledge just waiting to be savored, accessible from www.krnet.org . One more thing that needs work is the krnet website itself at www.krnet.org. I had a helluva time trying to figure out how to go to the digest, and Dana finally had to clue me in (and he had to ask somebody!). The FAQ link needs to be redirected to Kim's excellent FAQ rather than a few questions and answers. The builder's "yearbook" could stand a major update. 3 or 4 hours of somebody's effort could really make the site work, and it's apparent that Ross won't have that time for quite a while, with moving and all. I'm sure he would accept any help with open arms. All you have to do is download the source, massage it, and email it back to Ross. Anybody want to volunteer to fix it up? Don't volunteer to me. I'm not in that loop. Although I really like the 5 post daily limit, I don't think that opening up the KRNet list for larger attachments is a step in the right direction. I've always said (and volunteered many times) to post anything that is worthy of the disk space to my web site. If it's THAT good, somebody will post it. If I were administrator, I'd set the list for NO attachments. Then the virus problem would evaporate. Unless you've never downloaded messages from an English hotel paying several dollars a minute using a really slow long distance line to the nearest ISP, you may never appreciate the importance of this issue. Although it may be unreasonable, I've decided to shoot for completion by next year's Gathering. Considering that we're now starting to redesign our aircraft loader for production, and that there is a grand total of three of us engineers on the job, I probably won't get the plane finished by my deadline, especially if we have to work 13 hour days, 6 day weeks for another year again. The overtime money's nice, but what I really need is an airplane! See http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/99091517.jpg for a picture of the prototype loader, or http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/loader.jpg for a glimpse of the solid model. But too often I've given up trying to complete my plane by a certain date, only to slack off entirely. This time I'm sticking to my goal with conviction. I'd like to think that I've had a positive influence on a new generation of longer, wider, finer tuned, more stable KRs, and will keep my web page updated as I progress. I plan to revamp my KR Opinions at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kopinions.html as well. I've enjoyed KR patron sainthood, and hope that I've helped a few people out along the way. Let me know if things improve... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: 1835 VW power From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:09:33 +0000 X-Message-Number: 18 I have some stuff from "Hot Rodding your VW Engine" that show bolt -on curves. If that would be useful I might be able to scan it and email. -- Ross Oscar Zuniga wrote: > Hello, netters > > If anybody has power curves on the normally-aspirated 1835 VW, or at least > tabular data of HP v.s. RPM, theoretical or otherwise, could you please > email it to me? Thanks. > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Greetings and questions From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:31:00 +0000 X-Message-Number: 19 Screwy Squirrel wrote: > Howdy all, > I've been lurking here for about three months or so. I've been > interested in KRs since I saw Ross Youngblood's KR last May while > hanger-bumming here in Corvallis. Anyways, I'm thinking about possibly > getting started on one when I get some spare money together(I'm a full > time graduate student right now), and had a few questions before I get > started: > > 1. Is this a project that I could complete primarily on my own, or is it > something where I would be better off getting assistance(from the local > EAA, for example? What are the legal requirements and regulations(if any) > for this sort of thing, and where could I look them up for myself? There are some GREAT books by Tony Bingelis you can buy from Aircraft Spruce and Wicks Aircraft. The links to the two major parts suppliers are on the web krnet.org site http://www.wicks.com for example. These cover briefly the information for registering etc, but some of it is a bit dated now. The Wicks and/or Aircraft Spruce catalogs will give you a WEALTH of information on what is available, what types of materials and tools are out there, and what you can spend on this. This $5.00 is well spent, and I would read and re-read these catalogs constantly during my projects development. You can call the local FAA FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) in Hillsboro Oregon, and ask for a homebuilders info kit, they will send you some stuff. Also go to http://www.eaa.org for more information on EAA. The KR or any homebuit is a good place to put your spare money. I figured that the hourly rate for good psychological analysis and treatment would cost much more than I have spent on my KR. It was cheap therapy. > > 2. I am a computer geek, and the last time I spent much time in a shop > was for a project when I was a Boy Scout. Before that, middle school shop > class. Are there any vocational-type courses I could take at the local > community college that I would benefit from? I too had only shop classes in Middle School, but I was always ripping things up as a kid and trying to put back together. Usually this meant a big mess in the backyard. Actually the KR-2 is my second airplane, when I was six, my neighbor and I tried to turn a concrete mixing tub into a space shuttle, using 2x4's and potassiam nitrate. We never made the dry propellant boosters, it was too much fun making the Pinewood derby cars go. The woodworking part of the KR is pretty reasonable, the fiberglass work requires some practice, but is not too bad, but the sanding and filling... well you get a Ph.D in Sanding if you build a KR and do your own wing lay-ups. Buy the pre-molded skins and skip much of the sanding lab. At any rate, I have found that my construction skills are not quite a match to some of the fine KR's I have seen at the fly-in. This just means more sanding and filling someday... or perhaps a new set of wings. So there is a lot to be said for getting help from a local EAA chapter. Otherwise, it's a reasonable 1 person project, assuming you have some place to store it. I would also plan on moving the project with you since you are still a grad student, and will likely move a few times before you finish. If you allow for that, it won't come as quite a shock. Or perhaps you can hold off until you can finish it without moving. I found that I liked to wield after my neighbor showed me how. I'd like to take a wielding class, and then could have considered saving $$ on wielding an engine mount etc. But actually it was probably cheaper to buy them pre wielded, as I would have made three to get one that was airworthy. > > 3. Since Ross is bailing from Corvallis for Arizona(can't say I blame him > ;) ), are there any other KR builders in the Corvallis/Willamette Valley > area? Norm Rosenau is a EAA Chapter 1183 member, and he has a Jodel and a "Firebird" which is a KR-like aircraft. ALL wood construction, he gave me a ride in it... its a rocket. Oscar Zuniga has one in progress in Medford, there is another KR2 reported to be hangared at Corvallis however I have not seen/meet the owner, and there are a couple more Oregon builders on the net. (I don't have the names email combinations handy.) There was a KR in a past newsletter based in eastern Oregon ('89-93 newsletter I think) with a terrific cowling baffling setup. If anyone knows who/where this plane is, it is definately worth the trip... Hmm maybe I will swing by Bend on my way to Phoenix, and take Photos. -- Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Update on 2026P and spins From: "Eddie Hibbard" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:39:55 PDT X-Message-Number: 20 I have not seen any flight reports on KR-net so I don't know if they are appropriate. I feel that some of my experiences may help in light of the spin discussion that has been going on. I have flown the plane I purchased. (It was flown from Canada to Oregon for delivery by the previouse owner.) The first flights (two) were actually high speed taxis that became airborn. I was solo and had little tail wheel time (approx. 5 hours). Lesson 1: the KR becomes airborn very quickly when solo, Lesson 2: the KR will float nearly forever in ground effect. Lesson 2 allowed me a few weeks to contemplate my approach to learning the KR-2 while a replacement prop was shaped and shipped. All flights since the first flight have been with an instructor. He is a very tight fit at over 6 feet and 190 lbs. He has done test pilot work and has been flying since about 1978. His experience includes a jet BD-5 and a Yak. A full set of CG calculations was done prior to any flying that started with actual measurements I performed with a level and plumb-bob and weight being checked on stock-car scales. Calculations determined that our combined weight with low fuel (single header tank) would still stay forward of the 6 inch range specified in Neil D. Bingham's "Design Analysis" by about 1 inch (I don't have my worksheets in front of me at this time). With the 2 of us on board and no fuel we are right at 900 lbs gross. The instructor had no KR experience but declined an introductory solo since all indications were that performance would not be comparable. Due to exceeding 900 lbs, the first flight was at less than 1/2 a tank of fuel (a 9 gallon tank). The flight was uneventful, but handling was NOT impressive. The plane was very divergent (if put nose high, it will continue to pitch into a stall). All later flights have been done starting with full fuel and exceeding 900 lbs in order to achieve a better CG with moderate improvement in handling experienced. The instructor is a FIRM believer in spin training and insisted that it be done, until experiencing the first flight. Later review of the KR newsletters and other writings came across a statement quoting Ken Rand that steep turns with two people on board should not be done below 90 mph (or something close to that). Discussions and training from that point on have been along the lines of . . . DO NOT PUT THE KR IN AN ATTITUDE THAT CAN LEAD TO A STALL AND SUBSIQUENT SPIN. Especially with two on board, it will likely be unrecoverable EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE IN FRONT OF THE AFT CG LIMIT. This is most critical in the approach and departure phases of flight. Please do not be detered from the KR by the above statements. Please take them as a caution. Though I have yet to solo in my KR, I am very pleased with the aircraft. It is teaching me more about flying and TRUE flight skills than I ever expected to learn in a GA aircraft. It is truly a joy to fly. My two short solo hops gave me a brief taste of handling with the CG in the forward half of the range, and I liked it. The instructor has also flown it solo now and really thought it was a kick to fly (still very squirrelly on the ground and watch out for P-factor when raising the tail on take-off). The instability issues of dual flight do not manifest themself when solo. He also stated the poor handling of dual was not the worst he has experienced but should be approached with caution by an inexperienced or worse, a un-proficient pilot. By the way, my KR is a stock KR2 with retracts (pin lock not latches) with an 1835 cc HAPI engine. This is only my opinion and experiences, someone elses may be different. If you want to know more or want references I can provide them. E-mail me directly. Eddie Hibbard Portland/Baker City Oregon edhibb@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Jim: reply to your post From: "Cleo Greenhaw" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:06:43 -0500 X-Message-Number: 21 Jim: Cleo at cleo@fullnet.net I have a 2100 D Revmaster engine with a built in accessory case. Will mounting this engine to the accessory case be enough spacing to place my W/B in the ball park range? Thank you cleo. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Faughn To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:17 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Flat Spins in KRs, Know you enemy! >Everyone at the Gathering this year met a person that lived after a flat >spin. John Shaffer, who spun his in and it went flat. You really >wouldn't want to do what he did. His accident happened when I was >building my plane and many of the discussions that are being conducted >today were conducted 12 years ago. What I learned and believe to this >day is DON'T get aft. Most of the people I know will not fly their KR in >the last 2". I know I won't and did all my W&B so that even with two 190 >lb people it will still be ahead of that limit. (This is why the engine >spacers are on the plane.) If you saw me giving rides, you also noticed >I took everything (tools and stuff) out of my plane to ensure the plane >was in the configuration I established in the W & B. This is so critical >I can't emphasise it enough. I only wish this discussion could have >taken place with the pilot that just lost his life. > >Perhaps next years Gathering can have a forum on a topic like this. >Inspecting partially built planes for errors and oversight, what to do >if you have engine failure on takeoff, what to do if you loose an engine >in flight, etc. We have people who can tell you what it is like. I know >that my one experience with loosing a cylinder, in another persons KR, >and then the engine on final was enough to convince me that you must fly >the plane. I happened to be in the left seat at the time getting >conversion instruction so both of us puckered. The dead stick landing >was fine and we fixed the engine but the lesson was learned. > >We can save some lives. >-- >Jim Faughn N8931JF >St. Louis, MO >mailto:jfaughn@mvp.net >(314) 652-7659 or Cell (314) 346-4038 > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: cleo@fullnet.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: hangin' up the halo... From: Mark Jones Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:15:08 -0500 X-Message-Number: 22 Mark Langford wrote: > KRNetHeads, > > Although it's customary to flame a few folks to a crackly crisp with your > last post, I thought I'd try to be a little more constructive with mine... We have just lost a TOP GUN from the net!!! I am not sure who else has left, but I know there are other TOP GUNS that have not made any post lately. This is such a waste! I hope you/we will learn from this. I know I learned from these guys who are no longer online. It's a damn shame they are no longer with us because I need their expertise!!!!!!!!!!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: krs flying for sale From: RBChaser1@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:14:08 EDT X-Message-Number: 23 Hello, I and a couple of fellow E.A.A. members have been debating if we should take on KR2 projects and have come to the conclusion that we should not make such a serious committment until we have had an opportunity to fly in one. Then I think we are in agreement that if we then feel positive about it we should purchase a partner KR2 currently flying so we can be flying while we build our airplanes. We all live near Louisville Ky. Is there anyone near that can introduce us to the pleasure of flying in a KR2? Anyone know of a good safe flying one for sale at a reasonable <$10k price? thank you. Chuck (RBChaser1@aol.com) --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com