From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:15 PM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: October 21, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Thursday, October 21, 1999. 1. Re: Update on 2026P and spins 2. Passing the Torch 3. P Factor 4. Bailing out? 5. Re: Switching horses mid stream 6. High Performance Composites 7. Re: High Performance Composites 8. Re: High Performance Composites 9. Prop Pitch and Engine spacers (CG) 10. TET Wing Attach Fittings 11. Engine Cowling / Engine Air inlet 12. Re: Engine Cowling / Engine Air inlet 13. Re: Passing the Torch 14. Re: High Performance Composites ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Update on 2026P and spins From: Krwr1@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:42:12 EDT X-Message-Number: 1 In a message dated 10/20/1999 9:40:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edhibb@hotmail.com writes: << The instructor has also flown it solo now and really thought it was a kick to fly (still very squirrelly on the ground and watch out for P-factor when raising the tail on take-off). The instability issues of dual flight do not manifest thems >> I have found that the p -factor statment is very true, make sure you keep the tail on the ground until the rudder becomes effective . Bill Youngstown Ohio krwr1@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Passing the Torch From: Steven Eberhart Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:37:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Message-Number: 2 "I am an enthusiast, but not a crank in the sense that I have some pet theories as to the proper construction of a flying machine. I wish to avail myself of all that is already known and then, if possible, add my mite to help on the future worker who will attain final success." Wilbur Wright, 1899 It looks like the "Passing of the Torch" is just about complete. I hope everyone is pleased with the results. Everything in life changes and so it is with KRnet. The KR is a little airplane with a lot of potential. There were a lot of us that saw that potential, and since the stock design didn't meet our requirements, decided to make the changes so that it did meet our requirements. Did we run out and start making changes everywhere without any thought to good engineering practices? I don't think so. We had a Mechanical Engineer, a mathematician and three Ph.D Aeronautical Engineers working very closely with us. I venture to say that we had a greater brain trust working to improve the KR than most any other Sport Aviation design team going with only one or two exceptions. Were we running off half cocked without testing our ideas first? Again, I don't think so. THere has been criticism of the airfoil project to the effect that all of the results were not in yet. Does anyone realize what we got from the University of Illinois? We got two of the worlds most respected aeronautical engineers to design our airfoils. What are their credentials? They have only designed hundreds of low Reynolds number airfoils. Ford Motor Company thinks enough of them to keep them on contract to design the wings for the Newman-Hoss CART racing team and for the Jackie Stewart F1 racing team. Bert Rutan thought enough of them that he had them design the new airfoils for Berts latest commercial venture, the Boomerang II. We didn't stop there. THe new KR airfoils were wind tunnel tested. If we had to pay for the design and wind tunnel testing at commercial rates we would have been looking at over $50,000! The new airfoils have been flying and meeting all design goals on Troy Petteway's N100TP KR-2. Troy loves it, but that is only one mans opnion. How many times have you heard us say that the CG range is not correct on the KR-2? Well, the FAA is implying the same thing in their earliest reports on the latest iteration of the classic KR stall/spin scenario. Where does all of this leave us? KRnet is now devoid of the dreamers that saw a lot of potential in a little airplane and just wanted to make it better. Where have they gone? They are in their workshops working on safer, better flying airplanes. Me? I ordered the plans for a BX-2 homebuilt that is what the KR could have been. Will I be making any changes to the BX-2 design? Not many, it doesn't need anything. I will be using the AS5048/AS5045 airfoils because they are better than the 6 series laminar flow airfoils that were used on the design. Since the new airfoils were not available when the BX-2 was designed this is one improvement i don't hesitate to make. Just thought this needed to be said. I am not unsubscribing to KRnet, I want to stick around and see where it heads from here. Besides there are a lot of the original dreamers that invested in the new airfoils still on KRnet and I want to stick around to hear about their success stories. I just won't be taking an active role or be posting to the list. Depending on how everything goes I may subscribe to the Digest. Blue Skies, Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: P Factor From: Mike Mims Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 3 I could offer a bit of advise here, don’t horse the tail up in the air until its ready to raise by itself. I think people have more problems with tail-draggers because they try to make it do something its not ready to do. Trim the thing for take off and keep it straight while its accelerating when the tail comes up the rudder will be effective. Me and 2 other pilots spent an entire weekend playing with a C-185 trying to find the best take off procedure (had to be 100+ take offs and landings)in preperation for the hunting season and just letting the tail raise by itself gave the best results. As a matter of fact forcing the tail up with forward stick pressure increased the take off roll substantially and made directional control more difficult. Its almost like that maneuver you see float plane pilots do when they raise a float to “unstick” the airplane from the water. All this does is push the remaining float deeper into the water and increase drag. A lot of the hot dog tricks you see these guys do are nothing but hot dogging and do nothing for performance. Let your plane fly when its ready is the best thing you can do. Mike "I post to damn much" Mims --- Krwr1@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/20/1999 9:40:38 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > edhibb@hotmail.com writes: > > << The instructor has also > flown it solo now and really thought it was a kick > to fly (still very > squirrelly on the ground and watch out for P-factor > when raising the tail on > take-off). The instability issues of dual flight > do not manifest thems >> > I have found that the p -factor statment is very > true, make sure you keep > the tail on the ground until the rudder becomes > effective . > > Bill > Youngstown Ohio > krwr1@aol.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: > kr2sflyer@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Bailing out? From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:20:59 -0500 X-Message-Number: 4 Netters, Sure wish someone knew the answer for why people are leaving the list. I'm certainly not a psychologist of any sort, but I suggest the word "burnout" is probably pretty close. We have a close network of unselfish guys who have worked extreemly hard to help promote and improve the KR, offer building hints, put on Gatherings, work on the new airfoil, direct newbies, offer helpful videos, etc. After a while, they simply get tired, don't receive enough pats on the back for their great efforts, and simply get irritable. Guess I don't blame them - we all just need a good long nap. Lots of hype and anticipation led up to the day of the Gathering and now the "high" is over for a while. I certainly didn't see many controversies develop before or during the Gathering. Everyone seemed to have a super great time. Another important factor, I think, is rather simple. We read messages on the computer but don't see the person's face - a lot is lost in the communication process. There are some who expect the worse from any situation - and they usually manage to find it. Call it a general "suspicious" attitude or whatever - but one that often triggers conflict. 'Course the loss of Leigh Kolka didn't help matters - we tend to be saddened and depressed after such an incident. Anyway, I certainly hope we have not lost some excellent resources forever. I expect not. I remain optimistic that most, if not all, will return at some point, maybe after laying low for awhile to recharge batteries. Very understandable and appropriate. I'm sure any voids will be filled by other capable people - it's a big country. The KR is too much of a fun airplane and the camradery among the builders of any one kind of airplane is priceless. Have a good day. Ed Janssen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Switching horses mid stream From: "Stefan den Boer" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:14:22 +0200 X-Message-Number: 5 Hai net heads Over here in the Netherlands I know a few guys who bild this thing. One of the guys sold me his old vw engine( 400 hrs to go). I have flown in his plane and it is reale nice fling with it. He bild it in les than 2 Years. The major differend thing is the removeble wings. The are removeble in 50 sec. I am not yoking. THe other thing is that the drawings are purfect. Much much better than from the KR-2. I think that it is the reason wy you can bild this plane in 2 years. He put for 2 months ago a new engine on it. It a BMW 100hp. I think its a nice aircraft .......( i have never seen a fling kr-2 ha ha.) Dutch guy. Stef den boer with 75% kr-2 ---------- > Van: Steven Eberhart > Aan: KR-net users group > CC: Richard Mole > Onderwerp: [kr-net] Switching horses mid stream > Datum: maandag 18 oktober 1999 18:48 > Top Speed 162 > Cruise 125 > Stall 52 > Engine Cont. A65, can use larger > Empty weight 700 > Gross weight 1222 > Wing Span 23 ft. > Wing Area 90 sqft (laminar airfoil) > Number flown 42 > > Current thoughts are to use the KRnet/UIUC NLF 18%/15% airfoils but > everything else basically stock. It looks like a perfect candidate for a > mild Corvair engine. THe standard configuration is a Tri-gear but as the > picture shows some are being built with conventional gear. The above > performance and weight numbers are for the tri-gear A65 version. > Conventional gear and a 130 HP Corvair should help the performance > numbers. > > Construction is moldless composite sandwich, with easily removable wings, > full flying stabilator, and a reasonably sized cockpit. > > Will let you know what the plans look like. Don't know about an internet > mail list yet but if there isn't one, I can easily fix that :-) > > Since the BX-2 is a re-incarnation of the KR-2 with all of the > modifications I want, I will be sticking around KRnet and will > periodically (sp?) update all on my progress. Hope I will be allowed to > land at the annual Gatherings - I do own two sets of KR-2S plans - that > should count for something :-) > > After not flying for 30 years, my second solo should be this week. > Re-learning to fly at a buisy, tower controlled field has been a blast. > Life is great. > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: boer.reinders@hetnet.nl > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: High Performance Composites From: "Richard Parker" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:43:27 PDT X-Message-Number: 6 For those of you still on this list, I've been toting a industry publication that I like called Composites Technology. Well I finally went to the publishers web site and they have another publication called High-Performance Composites. They have a subscription form on their web site. http://www.raypubs.com (When you fill it out you should pretend you are an engineer for some big company) (and no I dont work for them) Rich Parker To bad some of those guys left I'd bet the would like it too. Inside the current issue of High-Performance Composites Focus on Design: RTM Wings It with Innovative Tooling Ratheon's Premier 1 entry-level business jet is setting standards for aggressive use of composites and innovation in composites manufacturing, as well. It is larger, more technologically advanced and less expensive than other aircraft in its class. The aircraft's wing control surfaces are made using resin transfer molding (RTM) and internal pressure molding (IPM) to yield near-net parts that significantly reduce finishing and assembly time. The tooling for each part has a top and bottom half with an outer molding line (OML) configuration machined into the tool. Each 2,000 pound tool has a single resin inlet at the center of the tool front and a vacuum port at the center of the rear. These choices result in faster cycle times, parts consolidation and cost-savings of 65 to 80 percent. Training in Composites Bonds Industry and Interests Training in the use of composite materials is an expanding requirement in today's industry—the demand for employees skilled in the design and manufacturing of composite products exceeds the supply. Many now working in the field entered from another discipline or are using materials, processes or applications that are outside the realm of their original training and job experience. The most thorough way to obtain training is to enroll in a college or university degree program that emphasizes composite materials. Academic institutions also offer continuing education in composites, as do professional societies and private companies. Composites trainers maintain that training is a good investment with solid economic benefits. All the trainee has to do is avoid trashing on $100,000 composite part and they've saved many times the cost of the training. Inside Manufacturing: Automated Tape-laying Excels for F-22's Wing Skin Panels Automated tape-laying (ATL) of composite materials is a continuously improving technology. The process has been enhanced during the past 25 years at Boeing's Seattle, Washington facility and is used today to cost-effectively manufacture large composite parts such as the F-22 Raptor's wing skin panels. ATL on smaller parts hasn't proved to be cost-effective due to the large number of machine cuts necessary. Boeing used automated tape-laying to make the 777 commercial jet tail section panels and, most recently, the F-22 wing skin panels. These large, gently contoured parts are manufactured using a contour tape-laying machine (CTLM), benefitting from labor, cycle time, safety and health, and quality cost-savings. Show Update: 1999 SAMPE® Highlights Over 5,400 composites professionals gathered at the 44th annual SAMPE Symposium and Exhibition to compare notes, share ideas and innovations, scrutinize the latest offerings from 235 new and well-established vendors and, in general, catch up with each other. Attendees could choose from more than a dozen tutorials, eight panel discussions, five plenary sessions and 46 regular sessions featuring the presentation of 350-plus papers. The event was held for the first time at the Long Beach, California, Convention Center. Update: Ceramic Fibers A wide range of exotic fibers made of everything from boron, silicon carbide, quartz and alumina to metal and polyethylene is currently in commercial use for niche applications requiring highly specialized performance characteristics. Depending on the matrix, ceramic fibers offer insulation from extreme temperatures changes, superconductivity for low-waste energy transmission, high strength and hardness, and resistance to heat and corrosion. Ceramic fibers can reinforce polymer, ceramic and metal matrices. This article focuses on silicon carbide fibers mated with ceramic materials to create a ceramic matrix composite (CMC). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: High Performance Composites From: CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:14:45 EDT X-Message-Number: 7 In a message dated 10/21/99 2:44:28 PM CST, richontheroad@hotmail.com writes: << Rich Parker To bad some of those guys left I'd bet the would like it too >> CHEAP SHOT DON'T YOU THINK!! SOME OF YOU GUYS NEED TO MATURE A LITTLE. WHAT WE LOST WILL NEVER BE REPLACED, JUST MY OPINION, NO RESPONSE NECESSARY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: High Performance Composites From: "Richard Parker" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:46 PDT X-Message-Number: 8 Sorry - no cheap shot intended. Rich Parker (you'll know it when I take a shot, but it takes a lot to get me to pull the trigger) >From: CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Re: High Performance Composites >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:14:45 EDT > >In a message dated 10/21/99 2:44:28 PM CST, richontheroad@hotmail.com >writes: > ><< Rich Parker > > To bad some of those guys left I'd bet the would like it too >> >CHEAP SHOT DON'T YOU THINK!! SOME OF YOU GUYS NEED TO MATURE A >LITTLE. WHAT WE LOST WILL NEVER BE REPLACED, JUST MY OPINION, NO RESPONSE >NECESSARY > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: richontheroad@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Prop Pitch and Engine spacers (CG) From: "garbez" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:17:00 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 Hi Netters, I acquired a 52" ground adjustable prop that is nearly new that is made for VW's that has a pitch range of 30 to 60 degrees. I bought a Warp Drive protractor to check the pitch adjustments on the blades. I'm going to use this prop to determine what pitch I need to buy a fixed pitch prop. I need to know since the prop will go lower than 42 in pitch, should I not exceed a certain pitch or should I not exceed a certain RPM's? I moved my engine 3" forward and you can't get it to far aft unless you put a lead weight in the tail, I really don't have to worry about putting someone heavy in the plane because they probably won't fit anyway. Mike Garbez N998MG Griswold, IA (712)778-2449 msgtlg@netins.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: TET Wing Attach Fittings From: "Dean Collette" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:04:54 -0500 X-Message-Number: 10 Netters, It's pretty darn close to Friday. In the past, Trailing Edge Technologies, has offered laser cut Wing attach fittings for sale for the KR-2S. Just want to let you all know that we are sold out, and as of now, do not plan to offer them again in the future. Sorry for any inconvenience. We will, however, continue to offer templates for the AS series airfoil. Dean Collette Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC mailto:drdean@execpc.com See us at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Engine Cowling / Engine Air inlet From: Laheze@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:39:10 EDT X-Message-Number: 11 I am working on the front of my engine cowling right now and am in the process of contouring the little protrusion in front around the engine air inlet/intake. Does anyone have any knowledge as to the best size of this opening ? My intake is the Revmaster which is about a 2" diameter tube sticking out the front of the cowling a little. I was wondering if I should make the opening just smaller than the inside diameter of this tube so the air could slow down a little with expansion room or does it not matter, and just ram in as much as you can get ? Thanks a Lot Larry Howell laheze@aol.com KR2 rebuilder, almost flyer Rockwall, Tx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Engine Cowling / Engine Air inlet From: cartera Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:48:36 -0600 X-Message-Number: 12 Laheze@aol.com wrote: > > I am working on the front of my engine cowling right now and am in the process > of contouring the little protrusion in front around the engine air > inlet/intake. > > Does anyone have any knowledge as to the best size of this opening ? > My intake is the Revmaster which is about a 2" diameter tube sticking out > the front of the cowling a little. > I was wondering if I should make the opening just smaller than the inside > diameter > of this tube so the air could slow down a little with expansion room or does > it > not matter, and just ram in as much as you can get ? > > Thanks a Lot > > Larry Howell > laheze@aol.com > KR2 rebuilder, almost flyer > Rockwall, Tx > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: cartera@cuug.ab.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com Hi Larry and KRNetters, Not a good idea to have open ram air without a filter, you will get grass hoppers, insects and maybe even small stones. Flare it a bit and make yourself a little scoop out of fiberglass and put a sponge filter in it. I used old txed air filters out of a Navajo, clean them up and they did a good job. Hope this helps. -- Adrian VE6AFY Calgary, Alberta Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Passing the Torch From: Michael Taglieri Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:16:40 -0400 X-Message-Number: 13 >It looks like the "Passing of the Torch" is just about complete. I hope >everyone is pleased with the results. Everything in life changes and so >it is with KRnet. The KR is a little airplane with a lot of potential. >There were a lot of us that saw that potential, and since the stock design >didn't meet our requirements, decided to make the changes so that it did >meet our requirements. Did we run out and start making changes everywhere >without any thought to good engineering practices? I don't think so. We >had a Mechanical Engineer, a mathematician and three Ph.D Aeronautical >Engineers working very closely with us.... THere has been criticism of the airfoil project to the effect >that all of the results were not in yet. Does anyone realize what we got >from the University of Illinois? We got two of the worlds most >respected aeronautical engineers.... >How many times have you heard us say that the CG range is not correct on >the KR-2? Well, the FAA is implying the same thing in their earliest >reports on the latest iteration of the classic KR stall/spin scenario. > >Where does all of this leave us? KRnet is now devoid of the dreamers that >saw a lot of potential in a little airplane and just wanted to make it >better.... I'm sorry so many people seem to be leaving the list, and I hope they'll stay on the digest and keep their web pages in place. The KR is an early design whose designer didn't live to get it completely debugged, so it is not surprising that some things need to be changed I've sometimes wondered why people who want to change everything and feel competent to do so don't just start from a blank piece of paper in the first place, but this is an experimental aircraft and people can do what they want. Concerning the new wing, I don't think it's fair to label it "criticism" to want to see a flying example of the thing before we jump for joy. If computer models and wind tunnel tests were enough to solve all problems, aircraft firms wouldn't need test pilots. If I understand right, there's a single plane now flying with the new wing, and it has so many other changes that the contribution of the wing to the flight characteristics is unclear. In addition, the wind tunnel models were constructed to great precision by the various aeronautical engineers, etc., and as a laminar flow wing, bumps and other errors of a nonprofessional builder may affect the results further. I'm happy that people continue to experiment with new airfoils, and I'll be even happier when I hear about the test flights of someone who has built the new wing from scratch on a fairly stock KR-2 or 2-S and compares its flying characteristics with another fairly stock plane with the old wing. Finally, KR's have been flying safely for more than 25 years, and it's pretty well known that the rear of the published CG range should be avoided. If you're suggesting that the recent stall/spin accident of a grossly overloaded plane somehow proves that the KR needs a different airfoil, that's complete nonsense. Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: High Performance Composites From: Mike Mims Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 14 I have to respond cuz thats what I do. Here is a perfect example of what is wrong with the KRNet. We misunderstand each other so darn much it isn't funny! I didn't take that as a cheap shot at all. He (Rich) was just stating that the guys who left may enjoy the said publication. Did I miss something or did this really seem like a cheap shot? Why does this BS continue to find its way to all 450 of our desktops? Can we all please just get along! --- CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com wrote: > > << Rich Parker > > To bad some of those guys left I'd bet the would > like it too >> > CHEAP SHOT DON'T YOU THINK!! SOME OF YOU GUYS NEED TO MATURE A LITTLE.>>> ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com