From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 12:21 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: November 02, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Tuesday, November 02, 1999. 1. Re: On names 2. Re: On names 3. Reflexed Tail Feathers (fwd) 4. wheel pants and yaw stability 5. Re: wheel pants and yaw stability 6. Re: wheel pants and yaw stability 7. Engine change 8. Help! 9. west system 10. Highest offer! 11. Re: Help! 12. Revflow carb 13. Re: Help! 14. Re: Gathering forum videos, last word 15. Corvair Engine core available 16. EAA Commercialized???? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: On names From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:00:20 -0500 X-Message-Number: 1 In Canada it will be known as the Rok-eh W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: Jim Sellars > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: On names > Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:37 AM > > Folks; For what it's worth, I think we should call the little bird "Roket" > sure it's spelled wrong, and the et at the end suggests the diminutive of > the Rok, but the connotation is of a very fast aircraft. That's what I > think we all like about the idea of this plane. Regards; Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: David Goodman > To: KR-net users group > Date: October 30, 1999 10:57 AM > Subject: [kr-net] On names > > > >I think giving a name to the KR is a great idea. It is not an insult to > >the builder. Heck, I think he would be proud of the KR-net and all that > >has been done to this plane, and would acknowledge it has been taken far > >beyond what he did with it himself. I would go so far as to submit that > >there are very few actual "KRs" out there flying, with all the changes that > >have been made by virtually every builder who has made one. > > > >Other aircraft designs in kit form are just that, kits. Each one built is > >a clone due to the nature of the design. This is certainly not true of the > >KR. KR-net is more of a lose confederation of folks who started out at the > >same point and diverged to meet their own goals in building, design and > >flight. Take some credit for our uniqueness as a group of builders and > >designers and give a name to this aircraft. I for one am in favor of the > >name "Dart". > > > >David Goodman > >zipperts@whidbey.net > > > >--- > >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jsellars@mon.auracom.com > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: On names From: "Henning Mortensen" Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:27:40 PST X-Message-Number: 2 Ok, if this thread is not done then I guess I will forward my bit. How about the "Kricket", eh? Henning Mortensen KR2 - Regina, Sk, Canada mailto:henning_kr2@hotmail.com >From: "w.g. kirkland" > >In Canada it will be known as the Rok-eh > > Folks; For what it's worth, I think we should call the little bird >"Roket" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Reflexed Tail Feathers (fwd) From: Steven Eberhart Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:49:10 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:58:31 -0800 From: mdlougheed@juno.com To: newtech@newtech.com Subject: Reflexed Tail Feathers I received the following from Mark Lougheed, who is no longer on KRnet - pitty. I thought some might be interrested in Mark's analysis work. Steve Eberhart On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Christopher Stewart wrote: > Has anyone thought of this idea for the horz. satb?, could it work? > i remember reading about how the KR has the "huey" effect in forward > flight > being the nose down attitude, ive often wonderd if this would work, by > having a negative reflex on the airfoil on the Stab to the best of my > aerondynamics knowlegde would cause the tail to pitch down thus raisng the > nose, without having to trim the aircraft for the nose up attitude.any idea > on this? > The short answer is to this question is "YES". "Could it work" and the answer is also "YES" - but to a point. I did some investigating into this a couple of years back and specifically for Troy's plane (this was long before the "new wing" mod), more because his was the prototypical KR-2. This was during a discussion I was having with Mark Langford at the time, noodling around ideas concerning his adjustable H. Stab. The idea was to "flip over" an asymmtrical airfoil to download the tail - but that was before discovering the underlying issues (at least by my calculations anway). The issues are twofold. First is that the original wing has too much lift dialed into it and seeks lift equilibrium, in what ends up being a nose down attitude. Second is that despite the specified C.G. envelope, the plane cannot achieve moment (pitch) and weight (lift) equilibrium simultaneously - not that this is an absolute requisite for controlled flight, but you are either flying straight and "level" and fighting pitch or have the plane "trimmed" out pitch wise while climbing or decending. The power setting also enters the equasion here, but at cruise speed your'e out of the envelope. As a result, the stock configuration plane cannot be flown "hands off" - the pilot is constantly adjusting and this increases workload. Another point that involves the nose down attitude is the effect of the thrust line. If the thrust line is above the Vertical C.G. (common with low wing designs) it will produce a nose down moment that will need to be corrected by the tail and controlled by the pilot - but I don't have any substantial evidence to comment on this with any authority about it's effect on the total pitching moment. Another question that was discussed (on the original AOL forum at least) was what an acceptable amount of static margin (distance between C.G. and the point of neutral stability [Neutral Point]) would be. At that time no quantitative answer was availble, so I started doing some qualitative analysis based on planes I had POH's for. Unsatisfied, I started playing with some new (to me) software that helped determine that the C.G. on the KR-2(s) necessary for both pitch and lift equilbrium at cruise was actually behind the Neutral Point !! Another point is that the N.P is just fractions of an inch aft of the specified aft C.G. point leaving little or no Static Margin (I believe less that 5%, but I'm going by memory) So - the "fix" for the KR-2(s) is not just the wing and not just the tail, but both. The new wing specifically addresses the issue of lift equilibrium and at the same time dials out most of the adverse pitching moment. The AS5046 foil (on Troy's wing) has significantly less camber than the RAF-48 and that enters into lessening the pitching moment. As a result, the C.G. required to trim the plane is moved forward of the Neutral Point, but not far enough to establish both pitch and lift equilibrium. To really address all the issues involves increasing the size of the Horizontal Stab. lncluding increased tail area in the equasion does many things. First the Horizontal tail volume is increased. The tail volume for the KR-2 as it now stands is in the neighborhood of 0.34 with the 2S faring slightly better. It has been suggested in several of my aerodynamics texts as well as some other program documentation is that an acceptable minimum is around 0.4. For comparison, the C-172 and the F.8L Falco have MID range C.G. H Tail voumes in the area of 0.6 and I have been working in the neighborhood 0.5 in my own designs. Also the stocker H.Stab area to Wing area is at (in any of my documentation) a bare minimum 16%. The point of this babbling is that the tail area needs to be increased and explaines in part why Troy can fly his plane "hands off". Exactly how much, I won't speculate here for many reasons, but given that a typical horizontal tail span is approximately 1/3 the wing span, you have enough information to compute a new tail. Elevator area is also approximately 50% - BTW. Second is that the increased tail size expands the size of the C.G. envelope (by virtue of the the Tail Volume) and moves it more forward of the Neutral Point. Now the C.G. range is in the neighborhood where it needs to be and achieve pitch and lift equilbrium. For any given required lift and speed this equilbrium C.G. is a moving target, but it's now within the range where the plane can be balanced with the trim tab. This is a position based on my analysis and by no means is the absolute answer. I'm always open to other points of view, be it from an acedemic or practical standpoint, but this is what my research over the years has led me to believe. Mark D. Lougheed mdlougheed@juno.com Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: wheel pants and yaw stability From: "Stefan B." Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:24:33 +0100 X-Message-Number: 4 --------------621AA0B9531B0F405103A16A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear KRNet aerodynamic researchers, My fuselage will be quite large (~ 48'') and flat and I think the yaw stability of such a bird will be quite poor. I wonder whether making the wheel pants longer and higher (in respect to their width) will improve the yaw stability and if it will be better than using a dorsal fin. For me, having a three-point system (two pants and a fin) would be better and less draggy (we have the drag of the wheel pants in both cases) than a dorsal fin just before the vert. stab. Are there any opinions? Thanks. Stefan Balatchev, Paris, France mail me privately --------------621AA0B9531B0F405103A16A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear KRNet aerodynamic researchers,

My fuselage will be quite large (~ 48'') and flat and I think the yaw stability of such a bird will be quite poor. I wonder whether making the wheel pants longer and higher (in respect to their width) will improve the yaw stability and if it will be better than using a dorsal fin. For me, having a three-point system (two pants and a fin) would be better and less draggy (we have the drag of the wheel pants in both cases) than a dorsal fin just before the vert. stab. Are there any opinions?
Thanks.

Stefan Balatchev,
Paris, France
mail me privately --------------621AA0B9531B0F405103A16A-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: wheel pants and yaw stability From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 5 Stefan, from what I read (I could be misunderstanding what I have read) a dorsal (strake) fin has more effect per square foot than anything else you can add. Also I think they have less drag because of this effectiveness. --- "Stefan B." wrote: > Dear KRNet aerodynamic researchers, > > My fuselage will be quite large (~ 48'') and flat > and I think the yaw > stability of such a bird will be quite poor. I > wonder whether making the > wheel pants longer and higher (in respect to their > width) will improve > the yaw stability and if it will be better than > using a dorsal fin. For > me, having a three-point system (two pants and a > fin) would be better > and less draggy (we have the drag of the wheel pants > in both cases) than > a dorsal fin just before the vert. stab. Are there > any opinions? > Thanks. > > Stefan Balatchev, > Paris, France > mail me privately > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: wheel pants and yaw stability From: Steven Eberhart Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:23:24 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 6 On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Mike Mims wrote: > Stefan, from what I read (I could be misunderstanding > what I have read) a dorsal (strake) fin has more > effect per square foot than anything else you can add. > Also I think they have less drag because of this > effectiveness. The tail moment arm figures into the stability formula. The longer the arm the more effect it has on improving stability. Also, any area in front of the CG is destabilizing. So, wheel pants on a taildragger would be destabilizing in yaw. Steve Eberhart > > > > --- "Stefan B." wrote: > > Dear KRNet aerodynamic researchers, > > > > My fuselage will be quite large (~ 48'') and flat > > and I think the yaw > > stability of such a bird will be quite poor. I > > wonder whether making the > > wheel pants longer and higher (in respect to their > > width) will improve > > the yaw stability and if it will be better than > > using a dorsal fin. For > > me, having a three-point system (two pants and a > > fin) would be better > > and less draggy (we have the drag of the wheel pants > > in both cases) than > > a dorsal fin just before the vert. stab. Are there > > any opinions? > > Thanks. > > > > Stefan Balatchev, > > Paris, France > > mail me privately > > > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Engine change From: "Steven Bounds" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:39:3 X-Message-Number: 7 Has anyone tried any other engines other than the VW, porshe, or corvair? I have a nice low time Rotax 912s 90HP engine,(4-stroke, 4-cyl,electric start, with gearbox) I would like to try in a KR2. I'm open to all advice and opinions..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Help! From: "Henning Mortensen" Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:05:35 PST X-Message-Number: 8 I found a crack in my rear spar. Then went and removed the rear spar to be replaced. But... In doing so I seem to have cracked the lower longeron, right where the rear spar enters the fuselage. Any ideas??? Help!!!! Henning Mortensen Kr2 Regina, Sk, Canada mailto:henning_kr2@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: west system From: "Joe Weber" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:01:00 -0600 X-Message-Number: 9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF256C.FC446660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two years ago when I deceided to build a KR-2S I talked to an A&P who=20 specilized in rebuilding antique aircraft. He also built a Pietenpol. = He recommended the west system to bond the wood together. I made several test samples using the west system. On every one the wood failed before the epoxy. Thus I used the west system throughout the wood part of the = airframe. Hope to have my KR-2S at the gathering next year at Lake Barkley, = however=20 that might be a bit optimistic. =20 I would be interested in hosting the 2001 gathering at Platteville, = Wisconsin. The airport has two paved runways. camping on the field, and probably = some=20 open hanger space. There a least four motels in Platteville including a Best Western and = a=20 Super 8 Joe Weber molly@mhtc.net ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF256C.FC446660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Two years ago when I deceided to = build a KR-2S I=20 talked to an A&P who
specilized in rebuilding antique = aircraft. He=20 also built a Pietenpol.  He
recommended the west system to bond = the wood=20 together. I made several
test samples using the west system. = On every one=20 the wood failed before
the epoxy. Thus I used the west = system=20 throughout the wood part of the airframe.
  Hope to have my KR-2S at the = gathering=20 next year at Lake Barkley, however 
that might be a bit = optimistic.
        =20
 
I would be interested in hosting the = 2001=20 gathering at Platteville, Wisconsin.
The airport has two paved runways. = camping on=20 the field, and probably some 
open hanger space.
   There a least four = motels in=20 Platteville including a Best Western and a
Super 8
      Joe=20 Weber
  =20 molly@mhtc.net
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF256C.FC446660-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Highest offer! From: Mark Jones Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:09:02 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 Hi Netters, I have for sale a Great Plains five point VW engine mount. Brand new, never used, not a scratch on it. Best offer gets it! You pay shipping cost. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Help! From: "Cary Honeywell" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:43:00 -0500 X-Message-Number: 11 Check my web site (indicated below) and see what I did with mine. If you wish, we could continue this thread by private mail. I can even be bribed to make a phone call during the day if that suits you. (bribe not needed) - Cary - -Cary Honeywell - Ottawa Ontario Canada caryh@home.com ve3ev@rac.ca Home page http://24.112.208.98/welcome.shtml KR2 area http://24.112.208.98/kr2.htm -----Original Message----- From: Henning Mortensen To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:04 PM Subject: [kr-net] Help! > >I found a crack in my rear spar. Then went and removed the rear spar to be >replaced. But... > >In doing so I seem to have cracked the lower longeron, right where the rear >spar enters the fuselage. > >Any ideas??? Help!!!! > >Henning Mortensen >Kr2 Regina, Sk, Canada >mailto:henning_kr2@hotmail.com > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: caryh@home.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Revflow carb From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:10:21 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 12 Anyone out there have a Revflow carb handy? If so could you measure the throat diameter and let me know what it is? MM or Inches is fine. Thanks. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Help! From: "Gene Lukan" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:17:42 -0700 X-Message-Number: 13 ----- Original Message ----- From: Henning Mortensen To: KR-net users group Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: [kr-net] Help! Henning, Here is an idea that may solve your problem, from one who has yet to start building. (Back in Aug. I came very close to losing my thumb with a table saw. This was after some very good advise on the KR net about safety in the shop. I should be able to get started in about a month or so but with a damaged thumb.) There is unique flush cutting saw, called Japanese tooth-pattern saws, that should allow you to cut away that segment of the longeron in need of repair. I have used this type of saw in building an iceboat and believe you could cut the longeron away from the plywood skin and also cut the scarf joints insitu. The saw teeth are set one way only (on the pull stroke) and produces a very clean cut. The blade is very thin and flexible and can be pressed flush to the surface that needs to be cut away. Here in Calgary they are available from Lee Valley Fine Woodworking Tools. I'll have mine available for the gathering on the 13th. If I can be of help email me directly. Gene Lukan Cochrane Alberta mailto: lukane@cadvision.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Gathering forum videos, last word From: "R.W. Moore" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:52:58 -0500 X-Message-Number: 14 I would like to view the KR video My Address is R. W. Moore POB 622 Toccoa, Ga. 30577 ---------- > From: Mark Langford > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Gathering forum videos, last word > Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:21 PM > > VideoHeads, > > I've mailed the three "chain" videos of the Gathering forums, and if > everybody keeps them for only 3 or 4 days, they should all make it around in > under a month. Whoever's last on the list (enclosed with each video) gets > to keep it. I also mailed out the "personal copy" videos Monday and today > (whether or not I've received your check yet), so if you don't get it in a > week or so, I must have missed your message and you need to remind me. I > still have four left. If you get one and you didn't ask for it, it's > because I thought you'd like to have it, and it's on the house... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rwmoore@alltel.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Corvair Engine core available From: David Mullins Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:24:21 -0500 X-Message-Number: 15 Here is someone who responded to my ad in the corsa newsletter. He has 2 engines available. Please respond directly to Roger. ROGER FEDOR mailto:rogmb.fedor@worldnet.att.net I will forward any more responses to the net as I have purchased my core already. Dave M Nashua, New Hampshire mailto:dmullins@ici.net ENGINE # 1 Dave, I have another engine that might be just what you are looking for. From a '65 code #RD, has been in my dads basement for about 15 years or so, ran when removed, has no carbs or shrouds, just top shroud, no distributor, but I probably have one around for that engine, and has a bellhousing. I had it around for a spare just in case I needed something, but now I do not need. since you want to tear down, this might be your answer. $200/OBO Let me know. Roger Fedor ENGINE # 2 Dave: Saw your ad in corsa. I have a low mileage 110PG drivetrain out of a 1965 500 coupe with 57269 miles on it. It was pulled out 4 weeks ago. It was in perfect running condition. The car rusted away and the car ran so good, I pulled the drivetrain figuring someone would need one. It is complete, except for starter and alternator, it includes the exhaust system and carbs, shrouding, etc. Interested???? I live in Eastern PA, Allentown area, about 6 hour drive from Boston. LEt me know if you are interested. ROGER FEDOR wrote: Dave, here is some history on the engine, I bought the car in 1991 with 22000 miles on it and did a complete reseal. There is a new Dale harmonic balancer on it, the carbs were gone over 2 years ago with oversized jets, I had an Ignitor in it, I took it out once I pulled the engine, if you want that and the alternator, I will give that to you. The rear main seal by the torque converter started leaking a little a couple of months before I pulled the engine. The engine ran very strong, and there was no noise from the rear or the trany, and the tranny shifted smooth. Considering the low mileage, and basically you can bolt this one in and use it. I would like to get $1000/OBO for the whole drivetrain, I know what it costs to rebuild one now adays, I had my turbo engine redone about 5 years ago. Let me know what you think, and if you pickup, will you need me to split the rear and trans from the engine, or should I leave together??? RIght now, it is on a dolly that can easily be rolled anywhere. Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: EAA Commercialized???? From: David Mullins Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:34:44 -0500 X-Message-Number: 16 Downloaded from another site: Corporate EAA is now concerned about commercialization and are disassociating themselves with the word "experimental". Go to the EAA web page (www.eaa.org) and notice the logo in the upper left corner: EAA The Leader in recreational Aviation Nowhere on their home page do they mention "experimental" Now go to the "What is EAA?" link. Nowhere do they mention the word "experimental". Now dig around in the EAA site looking for aircraft design information. Not there. Send a letter requesting the EAA add a resource page for aircraft design information. Get no answer. Experimental aviation has always been a grassroots effort and it is groups like this that keep it alive? --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com