From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: November 16, 1999 Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 12:19 AM KR-net users group Digest for Tuesday, November 16, 1999. 1. Re: Fuel tanks and CG 2. Re: push rod controls 3. Re: kr-net digest: November 15, 1999 4. Re: hstab & elevator hinge -protect from epoxy 5. As5048 Airfoil 6. Re: As5048 Airfoil 7. Re: Kr2s project for sale 8. Re: push rod controls 9. Re: flying with aft CG 10. Re: Fuel tanks and CG 11. Re: Rubber Grommets 12. Re: hstab & elevator hinge -protect from epoxy 13. Re: Re: Rubber Grommets 14. Re: As5048 Airfoil 15. Re: flying with aft CG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Fuel tanks and CG From: "R.W. Moore" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 03:46:52 -0500 X-Message-Number: 1 I have a switch in the header tank that turns on the pumps to pump fuel to the header tank, I always have a full tank. I also have a switcher to change tanks fron the four tanks in my wings. With this system I can draw fuel out of any wing tank. This systen will cure the CG problem caused by low fuel in the header tank. It also cuts down on pilot work load. R. W. Moore, Inventor ---------- > From: Robert Smith > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Fuel tanks and CG > Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 8:24 PM > > Lately I've been doing a rethink on my KR2S fuel tanks. I never liked the > idea of one 12 gal header tank because with 2 people as fuel burns off the > CG moves dangerously aft. > > My original plan was to have a 5 gal header tank and two 5 gal wing tanks > but that means I have to build 3 tanks........Too complex, too much trouble. > > Now I'm thinking that maybe a better setup would be a 10 gal header tank and > a small supplementary 6 gal tank inside the fuselage (maybe under the seat > or behind it) . I am trying to avoid unnecessary complexity while still > being able to control the CG with fuel weight. I figure that a 10 gal header > tank would be less likely to run dry. I plan to run out 6 gal from the front > tank then pump up 6 gal from the rear tanks and run out that 6 gal and still > have absolutely no change in CG > > Anybody have any comments on this kind of setup? Anybody ever tried it??? > > Bob Smith mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rwmoore@alltel.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: push rod controls From: Donald Reid Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:50:33 -0500 X-Message-Number: 2 Kr2cooper@aol.com wrote: > > For anyone who is using push rod control system, did you make your own push > rods or did you buy them? If you made them can you give a list of materials > you used and how you assembled them? I used AN490HT6P threaded rod ends and welded them to 3/8" x 0.035 steel tubing. These mate with female threaded rod bearings and are held in place with jam nuts. They can also be rivited onto aluminum tubing. In my 1999 Aircraft Spruce catalog, they are on page 129. I used Aurora rod bearing ends, Aircraft Spruce part number MW-4. You can also save a little money by having a solid shank rod bearing on one end that is rivited to the pushrod tubing and an adjustable one on the other end. -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: kr-net digest: November 15, 1999 From: Gognij@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:00:16 EST X-Message-Number: 3 Bob Smith, A few years ago, I had the opportunity to fly Martin Roberts airplane. This was just before he took the VW engine out of the plane. He and I , with full tanks on a hot 100 degree summer day took off from his local airport their in Jenks OK., and had a beautiful flight. I am sure that we had a very far aft C.G. on the airplane with our loading. Marti had wing tanks at that time that were full of gas when we took off. I must say however as I flew the airplane myself, I found it to fly much like a Piper T-tail arrow. I have 17,000 hours and have flown many airplanes since 1975, and I must say that the KR2 flies very nice. RELAX, keep your airplane light, and we will soon fly together at a KR event. I should be flying my KR2 soon, I am working on the canopy at this time. What is soon?.........6 months I hope? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: hstab & elevator hinge -protect from epoxy From: "Shannon Spurgeon" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:0:11 X-Message-Number: 4 Bob Smith told of problem with epoxy in hinges. I ran onto a slick idea while helping a friend in Roswell NM with his Pulsar: Get some of the thickest, stiffest wheel bearing grease you can find and rub a verry thin coat where you don't want resin to stick. Shaft / bolt holes may be stuffed full. Be careful about getting any grease mixed into resin, and of course protect against grease penetration into wood, but this will let cured resin just flake off. Btw, aileron / flap pushrod bearings on the pulsar are very elegant if yours aren't already done, check this out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: As5048 Airfoil From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:25:31 -0500 X-Message-Number: 5 Hello to all. I have ordered and recd the set of Airfoil templates from TET. My question is this to all, since Dr Dean has not answered my e-mails, are the wing spars the same length as thoughs outlined in the original KR plans? If so can anyone e-mail me the lenghts? Also in the template set there are diagrams for the horizontal and vertical stabilizer, but no templates for the ailerons or flaps. No mention of how wide the horizontal stabilizer is to be. As a matter of fact the only demensions shown are the hight and width of the spars. I am an idiot, so excuse these some what stupid questions. Since there were no instructions encluded regarding these numbers in my set of airfoils I felt it the need to post this in hopes that someone will have some answers. I just cant imagine building these with out numbers supplyed with these templates. Your help would be greatly appreciated, Rod Kelso Denver, Colorado mailto: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: As5048 Airfoil From: "Mark Langford" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:37:33 -0600 X-Message-Number: 6 Rod Kelso wrote: > I have ordered and recd the set of Airfoil templates from TET. My question > is this to all, since Dr Dean has not answered my e-mails, are the wing > spars the same length as thoughs outlined in the original KR plans?.... Sorry but Dr. Dean has been working his buns off doing Doctor things for several weeks and weekends. Last I heard, he was looking for time to sneak a nap, so I doubt he's doing much email checking. There's a reason why these are called "templates", and not "wing plans". You are supposed to do absolutely nothing more than interchange the new airfoil templates with the ones in the plans and build everything exactly as you would as if you were using the plans. The ailerons, elevator, rudder, and everything else can be built as if building by the plans. I guess I need to write that on the templates to clarify it, and I will do that tonight. The main spar height changes slightly, and every one of those dimensions is on the drawings. The exact same material is used for the spar caps and spacers, but the spacers are slightly taller. Spar widths are as per the plans in every other way than height. The horizontal stabilizer requires a taller spar, which can easily be laminated from left-overs from main spar tapering. Horizontal stabilizer width is a personal preference. If you want a hard number from me, I'd say 80" minimum. I think there is little question that the horizontal stabilizer is simply too small as detailed in the plans, and anybody that wants to argue that will have to argue with somebody else. The only real "gotcha" with these airfoils is if you use the AS5046 (16%) you'll have to move the aileron bellcranks to the front side of the aft spar, or the aft side of the front spar. This is because the airfoil tapers slightly more sharply than the RAF48, which really didn't have enough room for the bellcrank to start with. Personally, I think the aileron circuit works much better when fastened to the main spar anyway, as it's all fastened to the main spar rather than running all over the place. The AS5048 (18%) has lots of room to do it the stock way. One other change that should be made is the horizontal stabilizer needs to be set at a -.75 degree incidence (nose down), at least that's our best guess. It will work just fine if you screwed up and fastened it in place level as per the plans. Anyone who can't handle this sort of change or feels uncomfortable making changes to the plans should probably just build the plane to the plans and leave the fancy airfoils to those that can deal with it. Anybody that wants a refund on templates just return them (in any condition at all), and you've got it, no questions asked. I've sent out about 30 copies of these things (mostly free ones to those who contributed early on to the wind tunnel project) and several people are building them already, and nobody's asked me any of these questions. I thought I'd made it clear enough on several occasions that these were templates, and nothing more. I wouldn't pretend to redesign this aircraft, and expect that anybody using these templates would also have a copy of the KR2S plans close by. I assume that anybody using these templates would be a KRNet participant, and would have seen all of the commentary on these matters many times. If not, I'm sure they are in the archives, and I will make a point of sending something similiar to this letter in each and every set of templates that I send out in the future. There is more info available at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as504x.html and, I just wrote a "history of the new airfoil" at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/airfoil.html for the KR Newsletter. Mark Langford Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Kr2s project for sale From: "daddyt" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:57:11 -0800 X-Message-Number: 7 ----- Original Message ----- From: dave tillema To: KR-net users group Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 1:42 PM Subject: [kr-net] Kr2s project for sale > Thankyou for the many responses. Sorry for the delay, I was gone all > weekend. > I was surprised at seeing pretty much the same questions. So let me answer > a few of the most popular. > 1. I live near Houston, Tx > 2. A "Ballpark figure" would be under $7K. And at the cost of just > materials alone, your already ahead of the game. Now figure in how long it > would take you to get it to where it is now. Then make an offer that you > feel is FAIR. If were in the same "Ballpark", you can come inspect it till > your hearts content. What do you have to lose ? > 3. As far as how complete it is. If you can check out my website, please > do. If you can't,(which I still can't figure out). Let me know and we'll > work something out. > Thanks again, > Dave Tillema > dtillema@pdq.net > www.geocities.com/swooperdave > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: daddyt@peak.org > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: push rod controls From: "Ken Jordan" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:21:21 X-Message-Number: 8 You can get more info on pushrod parts/assembly in Tony Bigelis' book "Sportplane Construction Techniques" pp. 132-137 . Has many illustrations and descriptive narrative. Book available thru EAA. Regards, Ken J 50% KR2 retract ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flying with aft CG From: "Robert Smith" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:32:04 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 Just because you got away with it that time doesn't mean that you will always get away with it. Maybe you were lucky. From all that I have learned, you are just asking for trouble if you fly with a CG to far aft. The plans give an 8 inch CG range, but it is probably unsafe to use the last 2 inches of this range. I am looking for a fuel tank setup that will allow me to stay within the 0 to 6" CG range with 1 or 2 people and with tanks full or nearly empty. Bob Smith, mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: Gognij@aol.com To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 11:04 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: kr-net digest: November 15, 1999 > A few years ago, I had the opportunity to fly Martin Roberts airplane. >This was just before he took the VW engine out of the plane. He and I , with >full tanks on a hot 100 degree summer day took off from his local airport >their in Jenks OK., and had a beautiful flight. I am sure that we had a very >far aft C.G. on the airplane with our loading. Marti had wing tanks at that >time that were full of gas when we took off ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Fuel tanks and CG From: KRBLUCH@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:54:44 EST X-Message-Number: 10 There is room for a small fuel tank on the cockpit floor just ahead of the front spar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Rubber Grommets From: "Joe Weber" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:32:39 -0600 X-Message-Number: 11 Bob: I could use two of each size of those grommets. 60%done with KR-2S Email is molly@mhtc.net. To: KR-net users group Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 7:55 AM Subject: [kr-net] Rubber Grommets >Finally found some rubber grommets for the firewall with a bore of 5/16", >groove width of 1/4" and a groove dia of 9/16". Will allow a grommet in the >firewall without counterboring the hole for the usual grommet with a 1/16" >groove. Hate to put more hole in a structural member than I have to. > >Problem is, I had to buy a box of 50 grommets. Will use about 4 for my KR. >Anyone else that needs some will cost you .70 ea plus a self addressed >envelope with postage. Don't have a scale but they probably weight about an >ounce each. > >Also ordered a box of the same grommets with a 3/16" bore but will not be in >for 3 to 4 weeks. This is the smallest made with a 1/4" groove. > >Email me direct for an address if you can use some. > >Bob > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: molly@mhtc.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: hstab & elevator hinge -protect from epoxy From: Laheze@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:07:19 EST X-Message-Number: 12 Vaseline works too ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Re: Rubber Grommets From: DThomas773@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:23:53 EST X-Message-Number: 13 In a message dated 11/16/99 8:31:01 PM, you wrote: << from rly-zc04.mx.aol.com>> Hi Bob, I'm only KR2s builder wanna be but I do a lot of work in hanger. Any time I have an opportunity to pick up a hard to locate item I usually do just in case. If you do have spares please send an address and I would like to buy a few from you. D Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: As5048 Airfoil From: "Dean Collette" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:00:35 -0600 X-Message-Number: 14 Rod, 1. The last email I recieved from you was dated 10/29/99 at 8:22PM when you wrote; >Hi Dean, > >Denver will be fine since all the saws and stuff are still here for the >time being. No, Thank you, for the fine products you offer. I hope TET >is working out fine for you guys. > >Rod Kelso 2. As to your KRNet post today; I will be sending you a check for a full refund of your money for the Wing Templates as well as reimbursement for return postage. I appologize that these did not meet your expectations. Dean Collette Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC mailto:drdean@execpc.com See us at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/ > Hello to all. > > I have ordered and recd the set of Airfoil templates from TET. My question > is this to all, since Dr Dean has not answered my e-mails, are the wing > spars the same length as thoughs outlined in the original KR plans? If so > can anyone e-mail me the lenghts? > > Also in the template set there are diagrams for the horizontal and vertical > stabilizer, but no templates for the ailerons or flaps. No mention of how > wide the horizontal stabilizer is to be. As a matter of fact the only > demensions shown are the hight and width of the spars. I am an idiot, so > excuse these some what stupid questions. Since there were no instructions > encluded regarding these numbers in my set of airfoils I felt it the need > to post this in hopes that someone will have some answers. I just cant > imagine building these with out numbers supplyed with these templates. > > Your help would be greatly appreciated, > > Rod Kelso > Denver, Colorado > > mailto: > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: drdean@execpc.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flying with aft CG From: jscott.pilot@juno.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:15:59 -0800 X-Message-Number: 15 On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:32:04 -0500 "Robert Smith" writes: > Just because you got away with it that time doesn't mean that you will > always get away with it. Maybe you were lucky. From all that I have > learned, you are just asking for trouble if you fly with a CG to far aft. > The plans give an 8 inch CG range, but it is probably unsafe to use the last > 2 inches of this range. > > I am looking for a fuel tank setup that will allow me to stay within the 0 > to 6" CG range with 1 or 2 people and with tanks full or nearly empty. > > Bob Smith, mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com > Robert, I won't tell you how to build yours, but this is how mine is set up and I can NOT get it into the aft part of the CG range. I have a 9 1/2 gallon header tank, and a pair of 7 gallon wing tanks located from the front spar aft to 6 inches in front of the aft spar in the inboard area of the outer wing panels. My empty weight is such that it takes a minimum of a 103# pilot to get to the front edge of the CG if the header tank is full and the wing tanks and baggage are empty. That is my worst case forward scenario. My worst case aft scenario is shortly after takeoff with me (250#), baggage and wing tanks full, and the header tank starting to burn off. At that point, I am close to 5" aft of the front edge of the CG range. As the header tank burns down, about every 30 minutes I refuel it from the wing tanks. From there on, my CG continues moving slightly forward. In general, my plane cruises a little bit faster while it is a little aft, but I do stay out of the aft 2" of the CG range. In this configuration, my plane grosses at 1200# and never gets more than 5.5" aft of the forward edge of the CG range. I did a stall and spin entry series of tests during my flight test phase with this configuration and found the plane to give lots of warning before stalling, and to be easy to recover. Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213w construction and first flight at http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com