From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: December 20, 1999 Date: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 12:22 AM KR-net users group Digest for Monday, December 20, 1999. 1. Spruce treatment 2. missing e-mail address 3. missing e-mail address 4. Re: missing e-mail address 5. Re: missing e-mail address 6. Re: missing e-mail address 7. change of address 8. how do you keep glass fibers straight? 9. flox replacement 10. RE: how do you keep glass fibers straight? 11. Re: Spruce treatment 12. Re: flox replacement 13. Re: Spruce treatment 14. KR Crash. 15. Re: KR Crash. 16. Re: "N" number fee 17. Re: missing e-mail address 18. Re: Spruce treatment 19. Spruce treatment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spruce treatment From: "John Martindale" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 1:16:23 X-Message-Number: 1 Hi Folks Anyone ever considered pressure treating their spruce with CCA (copper, chrome, arsenic) like you see pine logs done? Just wondering if it works and/or affects timber strength, glue bonds etc?...Not that I'm about to pressure treat the half finished number in the garage...might try first on the missus instead!! See Ya Aussie John. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: missing e-mail address From: esko.lempola@icl.fi Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 7:19:59 X-Message-Number: 2 Hello KRnetters! Few months ago there was a swiss builder online. He was considering to ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: missing e-mail address From: esko.lempola@icl.fi Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 7:25:22 X-Message-Number: 3 Hello KRnetters! Few months ago there was a swiss builder online. He was considering to build a KR or Cherry2, by Max Brandli. For some reason, I can't find his message, or the e-mail address. If anyone has his e-mail address, please send it privatelly to me. This Cherry has a neat landing gear system, and I would like to have some more info about it. (Read: copy ;-) ) PLEASE, DO NOT REPLY this message!!! mailto:esko.lempola@iobox.com Friendly Esko Lempola ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: missing e-mail address From: Steven Eberhart Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:51:39 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 4 On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 esko.lempola@icl.fi wrote: > Hello KRnetters! > > Few months ago there was a swiss builder online. He was considering to > build a KR or Cherry2, by Max Brandli. For some reason, I can't find his > message, or the e-mail address. If anyone has his e-mail address, please > send it privatelly to me. > This Cherry has a neat landing gear system, and I would like to have some > more info about it. (Read: copy ;-) ) > You may be referring to me. I bought the plans to Max Braendli's BX-2 Cherry a month or so ago. As many KRNet'ers know I have been a strong supporter of the KR-2 design but have always felt that the design was suffering from lack of evolution after Ken Rand's death. Just about all of the modifications I was planning on implementing have already been encorporated into the BX-2 design. a. Laminar flow airfoil b. improved stability c. Larger cockpit d. Douglas Fir rather than Spruce e. Can be trailered with easily removable wings and stabilator f. Stabilator rather than stabilizer/elevator g. Complete plans for all hardware and construction details. h. Excellent construction drawings - over 130 separate plan sheets. i. Designed for A-65 to 0-200 engines, easily converted to Corvair engine. j. Straight top longeron - no banana boat syndrom here. k. Mature design with a lot of planes flying. l. fully detailed tricycle retractable landing gear. m. Same basic construction as the KR-2 design. These are just some of the features that impressed me. Virtually all of the modifications I was planning on are already encorporated and are very well detailed in the plans. From what I have seen and from the BX-2 builders I have talked to this plane can be built to plans with almost no experimentation. THis alone should cut atleast a year off of the construction time. COuple this with the, as reported, excellent flying characteristics convinced me to build the BX-2 rather than design my own variation on the KR-2 design. THe build it to the plans crowd convinced me that they were right but the airplane was wrong, hense the change to the BX-2 that can be built to the plans and still result in the airplane I was wanting. I am substituting the new KRNet/UIUC airfoils for the existing laminar flow airfoil simply because I played such a significant role in the evolution of the KRNet/UIUC airfoils and I like their demonstrated flying characteristics. I am not planning vary many other modifications. THe COrvair engine and a Dragonfly canopy are about the only other changes being planned. I can`t get started until after the second week of the new year as all of my software customers are requiring that I remain on call 24 hours a day between now and Y2K plus two weeks. About the only negative is the plans are in German. THere is a limited English translation that is provided with the plans but I am working with Stefan B. in France, on a more complete English translation. THere is also a buuilder in Florida who is a native born Austrian who can help a lot. I only know of three BX-2s being built in the US. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: missing e-mail address From: "Capps Family" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:24:18 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5 So if I wanted to build the BX-2 (Cherry) all I would have to do is ; Spend (5X) times the cost of the KR plans, understand and speak German and convert meters to feet and be my own Builder support net-work? Larry Larry A. Capps Naperville, IL capps@mediaone.net -----Original Message----- On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 esko.lempola@icl.fi wrote: I bought the plans to Max Braendli's BX-2 Cherry a month or so ago. Virtually all of the modifications I was planning on are already encorporated and are very well detailed in the plans. From what I have seen and from the BX-2 builders I have talked to this plane can be built to plans with almost no experimentation. THis alone should cut atleast a year off of the construction time. I am substituting the new KRNet/UIUC airfoils for the existing laminar flow airfoil simply because I played such a significant role in the evolution of the KRNet/UIUC airfoils and I like their demonstrated flying characteristics. I am not planning vary many other modifications. THe COrvair engine and a Dragonfly canopy are about the only other changes being planned. About the only negative is the plans are in German. THere is a limited English translation that is provided with the plans but I am working with Stefan B. in France, on a more complete English translation. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: missing e-mail address From: Mike Mims Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:49:07 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 6 All that and have the same cruise speed! :o) Just kidding Steve the Cherry is a great looking airplane. Mein KR ist schneller als Ihre Kirsche! --- Capps Family wrote: > So if I wanted to build the BX-2 (Cherry) all I > would have to do is ; > > Spend (5X) times the cost of the KR plans, > > understand and speak German and > > convert meters to feet and > > be my own Builder support net-work? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: change of address From: GSNkr2@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:27:21 EST X-Message-Number: 7 Please stop sending mail to DDS1756@aol.com. My address has changed to GSNkr2@AOL.COM. I believe I am already subscribed to the KR-Net under my new address. Thanks. I will begin building my KR2S around June 2000. Can't wait to start. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: how do you keep glass fibers straight? From: "Robert Smith" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:28:04 -0500 X-Message-Number: 8 In constructing my horiz stab and elevator I found it very difficult to keep the glass fiber grain straight. Try as hard as I may, it always had a bit of the "S" shape. It was also very hard to keep the fibers at 90 deg to each other. For wings, how much of this "S" distortion is acceptable? How many degrees can the cloth fibers be off from 90 and still be acceptable? ( Note : I realize that the glass grain has to be laid "on the bias") Merry Christmas to All!! Boat done, wing spars done, front deck made, canopy frame partially made, horiz stab done, elevator done, working on vert stab at the moment Bob Smith in Albany, NY mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: flox replacement From: "Robert Smith" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:32:58 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 I would like to replace flox with chopped up carbon fibers in some instances. I found these available from one supplier but they are very expensive. Anyone know of a cheap source? Bob Smith mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com >Flox is a structural component. If I had to fill a void in a bolt hole >for a Wing Attach Fitting, I would probably use milled fibers instead as >it is a bit harder than flox. In the Glasairs, you'll find milled fibers >in areas that you find flox on a KR. > >Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM >mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com >See N1213w construction and first flight at >http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rsmith5@nycap.rr.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: how do you keep glass fibers straight? From: "Capps Family" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:52:16 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 To All, It is highly recommended that you do your lay-ups between 4 mil plastic sheets. = I'd recently built a couple sample parts, using what can only be described as "Vacuum-Less Bag (VLB)" Technique. I decided to use these parts to tryout the VLB technique, before beginning construction of my plane. I laid out and cut both parts, I then micro-slurred the top of each part and prepared for glassing. Cut my 3-Bid of glass for each part, and also cut a sheet of 4mm plastic [home depot] to about 1 inch oversize. There had been some discussion about epoxy "distribution" techniques, I use the "pour and squeegee" technique rather than the normal "brush it on lightly and quickly" approach. I mixed 5 squirts (about 5oz) of epoxy and poured most of it on the parts. = Once the third BID ply was wetted out, I put the plastic sheet on top and smoothed it down by hand. I'd bought the stuff that comes folded, so I had small lines where the folds were. Next time I'll get it on a roll to avoid this. = Next, I micro-slurred and did my 3 bid lay-up of the unfinished part sides, I used plastic on one and not on the other. PART(1) - 2 squirts of epoxy were just enough to wet up the first ply. Using hair dryer, second ply soaked up enough epoxy to be wet. Added one additional squirt of epoxy to complete wet. Added plastic film, then squeegee. PART(2) - As above except no plastic film. Exactly the same amount of epoxy used. Comment - squeegee was more difficult because of tendency to disrupt cloth and need to keep cleaning excess off the squeegee. With the plastic you just keep going to the edge of the piece. I think that what happens with the plastic is that the lay-up gets compressed as the air and excess epoxy is removed because there's no way for air to get back in. You can prove this to yourself by making a fully wet lay-up under plastic, then lifting the plastic. You can watch the lay-up go dry as the cloth "expands" and sucks air back in. Time to complete - roughly 20 minutes for each. Maybe a couple of minutes more without plastic. After cure, weights of the completed parts were 17.75 for the one without plastic and 17.00 for the one with plastic. i.e. using plastic saved 15% of the lay-up weight. On top of this, the one without plastic will need filler to fill the weave. I'd guess that this will be at least another 10% i.e. 1/2 oz. Contouring beyond that will be the same for both. Measurements were done with a mechanical postage scale. Error range is probably 1/4 oz +/-. Once the two parts were cured I sanded the shiny plastic one to a dull finish in about 10 minutes. There were no signs of the threads. [ note: I found that a hair dryer used carefully eliminates these lines - which is good because I couldn't find plastic on a roll] The plastic doesn't go around compound curves at all well, but for flat surfaces I've proved to myself that it produces much better results. I plan to use this method on the wings where I think the large relatively flat surface will lead to even better weight savings and much reduced finishing work. I learned later that its easy to peel ply where needed, then add the plastic and squeegee through everything. = I've tried lots of different methods, but this beats the lot. ALL the excess epoxy and ALL the tiny air bubbles are pushed easily to the edge. Of course the squeegee slides really easily without the usual tendency to disturb the cloth. You can watch the air and epoxy accumulating in front of the squeegee. After a short time you're left with a very "tight", totally smooth lay-up with absolutely no air. After cure the stuff comes off with no trouble at all. Much easier to remove than peel ply. The cured result looks like it came out of a mold. Some say the smooth shiny surface is a problem, can't be sanded to get a bond to glass or paint, WRONG. Just use 120 grit sand paper, either by hand or with a palm sander, it only takes a few minutes before I had one of the parts nicely roughed up and ready for paint. No sign of the fibers at all. I'm sure, there will be a lot nay Sayers on this method. My personal opinion is that it produces the best finish and lightest parts of all the methods I've tried. If you haven't tried "VLB" yet, try it on one part. I don't think you'll ever go back to the "old way", I certainly won't. I'm very glad I discovered this before starting construction on my plane. More uses for 4mm plastic. 1. Ever tried to fill a nick in bare foam with dry micro? The micro sticks to the squeegee and refuses to lie down in the curve you want. 4mm plastic on top of the micro lets you squeegee the micro all you need without sticking. After cure the plastic peels off and you have an even finish. 2. Plastic removed from a lay-up makes great masking material for the next job - much better than newspapers. Blue Skies; Larry Larry A. Capps Naperville, IL 60564 capps@mediaone.net -----Original Message----- Subject: [kr-net] how do you keep glass fibers straight? In constructing my horiz stab and elevator I found it very difficult to keep the glass fiber grain straight. Try as hard as I may, it always had a bit of the "S" shape. It was also very hard to keep the fibers at 90 deg to each other. For wings, how much of this "S" distortion is acceptable? How many degrees can the cloth fibers be off from 90 and still be acceptable? ( Note : I realize that the glass grain has to be laid "on the bias") Merry Christmas to All!! Boat done, wing spars done, front deck made, canopy frame partially made, horiz stab done, elevator done, working on vert stab at the moment Bob Smith in Albany, NY mailto:rsmith5@nycap.rr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spruce treatment From: Steen8751A@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:28:16 EST X-Message-Number: 11 In a message dated 12/20/99 4:17:43 AM US Eastern Standard Time, johnjane@chc.net.au writes: << Hi Folks Anyone ever considered pressure treating their spruce with CCA (copper, chrome, arsenic) like you see pine logs done? Just wondering if it works and/or affects timber strength, glue bonds etc?...Not that I'm about to pressure treat the half finished number in the garage...might try first on the missus instead!! See Ya Aussie John. >> I found three levels of pressure treating, the lightest being 25 pounds per cubic foot of retention. This would essentially double the weight of the wood in your KR. I am not sure about affects on T88. Here is a site on skin irratation factors and such, http://www.hickson.com/consumer2.html. Doug Steen Winchester, VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flox replacement From: Mike Mims Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:34:46 -0800 X-Message-Number: 12 Robert Smith wrote: > > I would like to replace flox with chopped up carbon fibers in some > instances. >>> Why would you want to do this? Sounds like you could be wasting $$ here. Milled cotton is more than strong enough for ANYTHING on the KR. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spruce treatment From: Mike Mims Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:37:52 -0800 X-Message-Number: 13 John Martindale wrote: > > Hi Folks > > Anyone ever considered pressure treating their spruce with CCA (copper, > chrome, arsenic) like you see pine logs done? >> Just curious, what would one gain by doing this? -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KR Crash. From: DClarke351@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:40:24 EST X-Message-Number: 14 What happened to the reported crash in Calif? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Crash. From: Mike Mims Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:09:35 -0800 X-Message-Number: 15 DClarke351@aol.com wrote: > > What happened to the reported crash in Calif? Larry is on this list and he will share when he is ready. I am just glad he was not hurt because he is a really nice guy. All I know is that he was not severely injured and is at home now. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: "N" number fee From: LBuck10019@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:13:28 EST X-Message-Number: 16 Hey, I just got my special number and yes....it's 10 bucks plus 5 for the registration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: missing e-mail address From: Steven Eberhart Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:27:17 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 17 On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Capps Family wrote: > So if I wanted to build the BX-2 (Cherry) all I would have to do is ; > > Spend (5X) times the cost of the KR plans, > > understand and speak German and > > convert meters to feet and > > be my own Builder support net-work? > Yup, you got it. Most everything you say is correct with one exception. The plans cost is only $650 or $400 more than the KR-2S. Five times would put the cost at $1,250. Where the 5 times comes in is there are well over 5 times more engineering drawings included in the BX-2 documentation. Or the Douglass Fir for the Cherry is about 5 times cheaper than the Spruce for a KR-2S. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Spruce treatment From: Michael Taglieri Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:48:49 -0500 X-Message-Number: 18 > Anyone ever considered pressure treating their spruce with CCA (copper, > chrome, arsenic) like you see pine logs done? Just wondering if it works > and/or affects timber strength, glue bonds etc?...Not that I'm about to > pressure treat the half finished number in the garage...might try first on > the missus instead!! >I found three levels of pressure treating, the lightest being 25 pounds per >cubic foot of retention. This would essentially double the weight of the >wood in your KR. I've wondered about using redwood instead of spruce for areas more likely to accumulate water, such as the rear of the fuselage. About the same weight as spruce and much more resistant to decay. Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spruce treatment From: "Capps Family" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:32:07 -0600 X-Message-Number: 19 Guys, Reduce your epoxy with denatured alcohol, COAT ALL WOOD. Or one of the best anti root products you could put on wood is pure anti-freeze. Just remember, anti-freeze will kill your pets and other wild life if they consume it. I would also recommend not treating areas your body parts could come in contact with. Larry Larry A. Capps Naperville, IL capps@mediaone.net -----Original Message----- Subject: [kr-net] Re: Spruce treatment I've wondered about using redwood instead of spruce for areas more likely to accumulate water, such as the rear of the fuselage. About the same weight as spruce and much more resistant to decay. Mike Taglieri --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com