From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 30 Sep 2000 19:22:33 -0000 Issue 98 Date: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:22 AM krnet Digest 30 Sep 2000 19:22:33 -0000 Issue 98 Topics (messages 2228 through 2257): Re: levels 2228 by: Mark Jones 2229 by: JAMES Tiedown stuff 2230 by: Ross Youngblood 2245 by: GARYKR2.cs.com KR's and COPPERSTATE! 2231 by: Ross Youngblood 2238 by: John Re: rain 2232 by: Ross Youngblood Jim Sellars 2233 by: Cary Honeywell Location of KR-2 New Wing Analysis? 2234 by: Walter Lounsbery 2235 by: Mark Langford Albert Pecoraro : Website 2236 by: APECORAR.steelcase.com v.s. 2237 by: Timothy Brown 2240 by: Mark Langford 2241 by: Mark Langford 2242 by: Mike Mims 2243 by: Timothy Brown Ron in Copley, Ohio 2239 by: APECORAR.steelcase.com VIDEO 2244 by: Mark Jones Is The New Wing Slower? 2246 by: GARYKR2.cs.com 2247 by: Mark Langford 2248 by: EagleGator.aol.com 2249 by: Robert E. Moser 2250 by: Richard Parker 2256 by: BillStarrs New Wing Slower?/opinions 2251 by: larry flesner 2255 by: Tom Stokes 2257 by: Mark Langford KR 1 B 2252 by: Kenneth Burch SPAR DEFINITIONS ? 2253 by: Phil Visconti 2254 by: Donald Reid Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:26:41 -0500 To: Edwin Blocher From: Mark Jones CC: vincent chrisovergis , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> levels Message-ID: <39D3D3B1.AAE52BC1@execpc.com> Wicks Aircraft Supply. Page 76 in the 2000 catalog. Smart Level Module $88.50 and the 48" rail is $19.35. They also have 24" and 36" rails. Edwin Blocher wrote: > Vincent, > Go to www.toolcrib.amazon.com and look at the Smart Tool ($119.95 + > shipping. Mine was $124.95 total.) It is accurate to 1/10 of one degree. > I'll swear by it's accuracy. This is a 4' level, they have a 2' a little > cheaper. I looked at Home Depot and every other place that was reccomended > but only found one at Toolcrib. > Ed Blocher > e-mail kr-n899eb@mindspring.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vincent chrisovergis > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:36 PM > Subject: KR> levels > > > Looking for a digatel level. Who sells them? I'm here > > in houston for a couple of weeks and I still can't > > find them anywhere. thanks vince > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:55:37 -0700 To: From: "JAMES" Subject: levels Message-ID: <002b01c029d1$834c6720$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C02996.D60292E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable another word about electronic levels. they may be graduated in 1/10th = degree incriments, but they may not have repeatability. you can move = them a small amount and not get a change in reading. again , ALWAYS = re-calibrate when first turned on, or after being dropped. I personally = do not let my carpenters use smart levels to hang doors or set joists. = I have seen them out over 1/4" in 8' and still read level using the = electronic bubble. just a note of caution. As far as the plans = coinciding with the builders manual, the 2s has been reinforced both in = the fuselage and wing spars on the 2s suppliments. they do not match my = 10 year old manual, this my have been updated since. I have reinforced = everything as per the new plans, I also added 5/8" gusset blocks at the = spar vertical members to increase the gluing surface to the sparcaps ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C02996.D60292E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:23:07 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Tiedown stuff Message-ID: <39D4273B.6B68E7B4@teleport.com> FYI, I went out and measured tiedowns at the local airport here.. 23' wide across the "T" and 17' from the center of the T to the tail. This means my tiedown anchor bolts will be near the END of the wing. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:39:44 EDT To: rossy@teleport.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Re: KR> Tiedown stuff Message-ID: <6e.378de10.27069e60@cs.com> In a message dated 9/29/00 1:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rossy@teleport.com writes: << FYI, I went out and measured tiedowns at the local airport here.. 23' wide across the "T" and 17' from the center of the T to the tail. This means my tiedown anchor bolts will be near the END of the wing. -- Ross >> That is normal. I had to place my tiedown fittings in the outer spars also. The plus of this is that less stress is placed on the wings when the winds blow. By tying at the tips, you are able to prevent the wings from "flapping" and slamming against the ropes. I had my "2" out side for 6mos. When the storms hit, mine was the only airplane that sat still on the ramp. The worst storm moved 23 of the 24 A/C. Ripped my canopy cover to shreds, But she never moved. The people at the FBO said it was weird to see all the "store bought" airplanes shaking and twisting and my little "toy airplane" sit there as if there wasn't a bit of wind anywhere. Remember Ross, with a KR it is OK the think outside of the box. Nowhere does it say that all tiedowns have to be placed only 1/3 out from the fuselage. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:28:50 -0700 To: bmuse@ev1.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR's and COPPERSTATE! Message-ID: <39D42892.912AB6FF@teleport.com> Bobby, I just picked up a flyer for Copperstate at my FBO when I went flying this week. I WILL be at Copperstate Saturday and Sunday, unfortunatly, I can't be there on Friday as I am going to be on the tail end of a trip to Oregon for some work related training. I have not made contact with the EAA folks here to see about getting my KR on display out there, but if I get my other tiedown ring installed, it might be possible. It will probably be easier for me to just bring folks up to my house to look at the KR, soak in the spa or pool and barbeque.... -- Ross B&B Muse wrote: > Ross Youngblood wrote: > > > Whew! it feels good to get out and work on the plane again. It looks > > like > > fall is around the corner as the temperature was below 100 degrees here > > in the Phoenix Area. I pulled the KR out of the garage to do some minor > > > > work and actually got some work done. > > > > I re-installed the left aileron hinge (hasn't been on since before > > paint), and > > worked on the canopy latch. I think once I get the canopy latch done, > > and > > fix a minor fuel system leak (near the selector valve), I will be ready > > to do > > some taxi testing! Well, there is the minor issue of the tiedown > > anchors in > > the wings... I have made blocks for them, but need to cut into the wing > > and install them. > > > > I have found a nice tiedown spot to take my airplane for taxi testing > > (I think), > > but there is still the old Williams Air Force Base... that might be a > > better choice. > > > > I ordered my last foam (I hope), and a carb heat box for a Long-Ez, > > along > > with a cabin heat box... this should finish my firewall.. I figure I can > > take > > the Long-EZ carb heat box apart and fab what I need from it to make > > a good carb heat box for the Ellison. I'm not in a hurry for that as I > > figure I can start taxi testing without Carb heat or Cabin heat. > > > > Anyone have some good canopy lock ideas? Jeff Scott had a good one > > I thought which involved a key at the top center rear of the canopy. I > > may go this route... nothing will be perfect, but it would discourage > > folks from messing with the bird if it's only tied down. > > > > I hope to get the wings on and take some photos for my website tomorrow. > > > > I have been neglecting this for some time... and think it is time for > > some > > new photos. > > > > -- Regards > > Ross > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > Ross, are you going to ready to show or atleast display your KR at the > Copper State Flyin next month? I will be there. > > Bobby Muse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:11:41 -0600 To: Ross Youngblood , bmuse@ev1.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: John Subject: Re: KR> KR's and COPPERSTATE! Message-Id: <00092912123000.00768@Y2krsoob> Ross and Krnet - The Los Alamos contingent will be flying down on Thursday hope to see lots of you guys. On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Ross Youngblood wrote: > Bobby, > I just picked up a flyer for Copperstate at my FBO when I went > flying this week. I WILL be at Copperstate Saturday and Sunday, > unfortunatly, I can't be there on Friday as I am going to be on the > tail end of a trip to Oregon for some work related training. > I have not made contact with the EAA folks here to see about > getting my KR on display out there, but if I get my other tiedown > ring installed, it might be possible. It will probably be easier for > me to just bring folks up to my house to look at the KR, soak > in the spa or pool and barbeque.... > > -- Ross > > > > B&B Muse wrote: > > > Ross Youngblood wrote: > > > > > Whew! it feels good to get out and work on the plane again. It looks > > > like > > > fall is around the corner as the temperature was below 100 degrees here > > > in the Phoenix Area. I pulled the KR out of the garage to do some minor > > > > > > work and actually got some work done. > > > > > > I re-installed the left aileron hinge (hasn't been on since before > > > paint), and > > > worked on the canopy latch. I think once I get the canopy latch done, > > > and > > > fix a minor fuel system leak (near the selector valve), I will be ready > > > to do > > > some taxi testing! Well, there is the minor issue of the tiedown > > > anchors in > > > the wings... I have made blocks for them, but need to cut into the wing > > > and install them. > > > > > > I have found a nice tiedown spot to take my airplane for taxi testing > > > (I think), > > > but there is still the old Williams Air Force Base... that might be a > > > better choice. > > > > > > I ordered my last foam (I hope), and a carb heat box for a Long-Ez, > > > along > > > with a cabin heat box... this should finish my firewall.. I figure I can > > > take > > > the Long-EZ carb heat box apart and fab what I need from it to make > > > a good carb heat box for the Ellison. I'm not in a hurry for that as I > > > figure I can start taxi testing without Carb heat or Cabin heat. > > > > > > Anyone have some good canopy lock ideas? Jeff Scott had a good one > > > I thought which involved a key at the top center rear of the canopy. I > > > may go this route... nothing will be perfect, but it would discourage > > > folks from messing with the bird if it's only tied down. > > > > > > I hope to get the wings on and take some photos for my website tomorrow. > > > > > > I have been neglecting this for some time... and think it is time for > > > some > > > new photos. > > > > > > -- Regards > > > Ross > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > Ross, are you going to ready to show or atleast display your KR at the > > Copper State Flyin next month? I will be there. > > > > Bobby Muse > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- John Los Alamos NM jeb@thuntek.net http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:44:10 -0700 To: Richard Parker From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Re: rain Message-ID: <39D42C2A.EE1D1021@teleport.com> Richard, I'm not so sure this is a big issue. I'm thinking making the canopy seal would be a good place to be concerned. That was what I was thinking about when I lived in Oregon... hard not to fly in the rain up there. -- Ross Richard Parker wrote: > With all the rain we got Sunday morning before dawn I was thinking about the > quality of peoples gap seals and their ability to keep water from entering > the wings and sloshing around. > > Fiberglassing the whole wing seems like a good option however it sure was > nice to see someone pull their KR-2 out of the trailer and have the wings on > it within just a few minutes. > > Rich Parker > > >I'm home at last made it as fare as the lake of the ozarks saturday and yes > >you can sleep in a kr2 it rained all night saturday and sunday but did get > >a room sunday night so a seat that makes out into a bed > >may be something to thank about see you all next year Terry > >chizek marion ks . > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:21:59 -0400 To: From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Jim Sellars Message-ID: <002001c02a20$a157a690$0205a8c0@server1> Sorry. I have to reply here. Jim's IPS determined that my email was spam so I can't reply to him directly. Jim: I will keep my eyes posted for a KR2 for you. Thanks reply. - Cary - (Hey this is Friday isn't it?) -Cary Honeywell - Ottawa Ontario Canada caryh@home.com ve3ev@rac.ca Home page http://24.112.208.98/ KR2 area http://24.112.208.98/kr2/kr2.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:03:25 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Walter Lounsbery" Subject: Location of KR-2 New Wing Analysis? Message-ID: I got a reference to a website containing the analysis of the new airfoils and KR-2 wing while at the Gathering. Unfortunately, I am not getting anything at this URL: http://www.a51.wetworks.org Can someone direct me to the proper URL? Thanks! Walt Lounsbery Walt@Lounsbery.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:18:57 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Location of KR-2 New Wing Analysis? Message-ID: <000f01c02a39$5cd9e460$58e6a58c@tbe.com> Walter Lounsberry wrote: > I got a reference to a website containing the analysis of the new airfoils > and KR-2 wing while at the Gathering. Unfortunately, I am not getting > anything at this URL: Well, there's always http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/airfoil.html , which points to where I think you really want to go which is Ashok's site at http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~ashok/kr2/airfoils/ . It really starts out speaking of a "GAxxxxx" airfoil, which was improved and finalized to the ASxxxx series by the time you get to the bottom... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:29:00 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: APECORAR@steelcase.com Subject: Albert Pecoraro : Website Message-ID: KRWebHeads, After a bit of prodding and coaxing from other fellow KR builders I decided to put my website up again. ;-) The website is just as it appeared way back in October/99 when I last had it online. After reviewing some of the content I noticed some construction techniques I had changed since then, for example, under Project Status - Wings: on the router setup for scarfing plywood - I indicated that a 1/2" overlap was called for in the plans. But then I learned that the proper technique is a 10:1 ratio depending on the thickness of the wood. I have those pictures, but I haven't scanned them yet. I will update the content as soon as I have some free time. In the meantime if you feel like adding a link to my website, please do so - I would appreciate it. Or, to take a trip to my website, please visit: Website: http://home.earthlink.net/~gryphonflier Email : gryphonflier@earthlink.net Some features of my website: Main Page: The Eagle takes you to the KR site. The Lion takes you to my personal site ... which is still under construction KR Site Menu Options: The Eagle in the top-left corner takes you back to the main page. Welcome - click on the plane for the latest updates. KR-2S Specs - information on the KR-2S, as it appears in the info-pack sent by RR. I will add my modifications as I make progress. Project Status - You will find a top and side profile of the KR-2S. Drag the mouse pointer over a specific part and click to see where I have made progress. This is not color-coded, so you'll just have to see which areas of the site have content. Builder Links - Find other KR builders and owners. This will take you to a list of major regions of the world. Click on the region of your choice. The USA&Canada region can be searched by state/province by clicking the selection with your mouse. The Europe region is set up by country - click on the desired flag. South Africa is its own selection - KR owner information was provided by Kobus de Wet. I have no information for the other regions, but if you would like your name on the list or if you notice any errors, please send an email using the link on the site. Supplier Links - Links to Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, EAA, AOPA, Rand Robinson, Great Plains, and ... KRNet ;-) Contact me - sends an email to my Earthlink account - gryphonflier@earthlink.net If anyone has suggestions about either the website or things they would like to see, please feel free to send me some feedback. That's about it for now. I'm going to be yanking some staples from my outer spars tonight. If you're in the Grand Rapids area and don't have anything to do ... come on by! ;-) Take care. Albert Pecoraro Applications Engineer, Sales & Marketing Systems Steelcase Inc. - Transforming the ways people work! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:59:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Group KR NET From: Timothy Brown Subject: v.s. Message-ID: <20000929175931.47416.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> One the 2S, are most of you following the plans which show the bottom longerons basically touching at the rear, or the instruction manual which shows 1 3/4" at top and bottom longerons. Are most of you putting in the 1/4" ply forward of the spar, or leaving it out as per manual? Thanks much for the replies. Send to timwbrown@yahoo.com Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:53 -0500 To: "Group KR NET" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> v.s. Message-ID: <000d01c02a44$cd3c55c0$58e6a58c@tbe.com> > One the 2S, are most of you following the plans which > show the bottom longerons basically touching at the > rear, or the instruction manual which shows 1 3/4" at > top and bottom longerons. The KR2 manual hasn't been updated in many years (check the date). The KR2S plans are an addendum, and whatever you see on the KR2S plans should be the proper way to do it (unless of course, it's a mistake). The manual was done only for the KR2, before the S existed, so the S plans take precendence. So in the case of the 1/4" ply, the answer is that it's a reinforcement added to the S, and it should definitely be there. You probably knew that already, so having said that, I'd think you'd want the longerons to end up flush with the sides of the tailpost so your plywood will seal off the gap, whatever that takes. Welcome to the world of KR construction, where you become the designer in many cases. Do it however you think it needs to be, envisioning the final product (which of course, you can't, unless you've built one before)... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:07:55 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> v.s. Message-ID: <000f01c02a48$93aaa560$58e6a58c@tbe.com> After thinking about this a little more, I'd have to say that the width of the bottom at the extreme aft end should probably be 1.75" if you're building a tail dragger. If you butt the two longerons together you're going to have a lot less bearing area for your tailwheel spring or tail skid (for a tri gear) than you would if you went for 1.75" outside to outside. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Mike Mims Subject: Re: KR> v.s. Message-ID: <20000929195437.7690.qmail@web1402.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark Langford wrote: > After thinking about this a little more, I'd have to > say that the width of > the bottom at the extreme aft end should probably be > 1.75" if you're > building a tail dragger. Humm, if I were to do it again I would make the tail post in that area about 3 inches wide so I would have room inside of all the things that are missing. IE Coutner weight! :o) Then just simply fair the rudder to fit that section of the fuselage with a little foam. ===== ........| .......-^- ....-/_____\- ...(O\__o__/O) ...[#]oxxxo[#] -----Y2K Bug--- Yes I drive one! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:06:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Group KR NET From: Timothy Brown Subject: v.s. Message-ID: <20000929210624.86624.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Group: I assume people have responded to my first question regarding the width at the tail and the plywood doubler...but for some reason virtually nothing is getting through to me. Maybe it will all arrive Saturday. The reason I know responses have been made is Mike Mimm's response to Mark's response just arrived. This is all I have seen. Even my second request sent earlier today never made it to me. If you could take the time to re-send direct to me (so as not to clog the net) I would sure appreciate it. In brief form: The manual says for the tail piece to be 1 3/4" for the first 12". The 2S plans show the bottom longerons touching. Mine will be a tri-. Also, plans show a 1/4" ply doubler, manual doesn't. Thanks again. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:19:00 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: APECORAR@steelcase.com Subject: Ron in Copley, Ohio Message-ID: If Ron from Copley, Ohio is on this list, could you please send an email to Albert Pecoraro at apecorar@steelcase.com Thanks. Albert Pecoraro Applications Engineer, Sales & Marketing Systems Steelcase Inc. - Transforming the ways people work! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:45:41 -0500 To: KR-Net , CorvAIRCRAFT From: Mark Jones Subject: VIDEO Message-ID: <39D537B5.6662BF82@execpc.com> I just finished viewing my home video of the Gathering. Again, as I did last year, I am offering to make you a copy for a mere $10 (US funds only). Last year I sent copies to Africa, Greece, Canada and all across the US. This one is great for the memories and for those of you who were unable to attend, this is the next best thing to being there. All planes and people present are included. Excellent flyby footage, close up shots and of course the awards banquet. Oh yea, don't miss out on the pilots singing the famous KR song. What a hoot. Remember, $10 buys a one hour video and I will pay postage for all videos mailed in the US. Also if you would like the 1999 KR Gathering home video or the 1999 William Wynne Corvair engine forum home video, I will also be glad to make you a copy of these for $10 each. Please email me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com with you request or mail your request and $10 for each video to: Mark Jones 615 Wexford Circle Wales, WI 53183 -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:55:21 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Is The New Wing Slower? Message-ID: I was talking to somebody today that is in the know, and while discussing my KR Twin project, was informed that the new airfoil is slower than the old RAF48. Who out there has the skinny as to what is going on. I am getting ready to cut some ribs and was thinking of using the new airfoil. But not if it's slower. As was told to me, Troy's 100hp new wing is slower than another KR that has only 85hp and the old wing. I cannot remember who it was that had the other KR. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:52:14 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-ID: <001b01c02a89$705070e0$f2de8e18@300emachine> Gary Hinkle wrote: > As was told to me, Troy's 100hp new wing is slower than another KR that > has only 85hp and the old wing. I cannot remember who it was that had the > other KR. Funny you should ask. That story got twisted around just a little bit. Several of the pilots were overheard discussing this very matter at the Gathering banquet. The word was that Marty had beat Troy flying straight and level, and that the new wing "didn't help him a bit. I don't know Marty's side, but I can tell you what Troy says. Troy was flying along and Marty flew up next to him and adjusted to his speed. Apparently they got into an impromptu "drag race" and Marty " inched away" from Troy. Now on the face of it, you could say that Marty beat Troy, and you'd be absolutely correct. But Marty said later that he was doing 3100 rpm, (although he told Troy he was doing 2900 at the time). Marty has an 0-200 with C-85 pistons (which raises the compression ratio), which Troy estimates puts out 125 hp at 2900 rpm, more at 3100 rpm. Troy has a STOCK C-85 with stock crank, which Troy guestimates puts out about 95 hp at 2900 rpm. Consider also that Troy's wing is still rough sanded and only has Smooth Prime on it for a paint job, and had just installed his wheel pants and hasn't properly faired them into the legs yet, among other things. If I were Troy and I got just barely beat by a guy with 32% more power than me, I would feel too bad at all! Keep in mind that the planes weight different amounts, and use different props, so once again, you can't say anything difinitive about anything. But I'll tell ya'll, I'm getting really tired of defending the new airfoil when the numbers and flight tests speak for themselves. All other things being equal there is absolutely no doubt that the new airfoil is faster than the RAF48, while stall speed remains the same. I guess that won't be definitively proven until somebody with a flying KR takes the time to do careful flight testing, then rips the wings off and replaces them with the new airfoil (and absolutely nothing else) and redoes the testing. Until then, I'm wasting my breath. On the way back from the Gathering Mark Lougheed and I were discussing this very thing, and his opinion is that it's just a matter of time before the new wing will be proven and becomes the defacto standard KR wing, so why worry about whether people keep building the RAF48 rather than getting the most out of their planes for the same amount of work? I don't know, but this is where I give up. Somebody else is gonna have to carry on this fight. You could argue that TET has a vested interest, since we sell the templates. But those coordinates are public domain (at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as504x.html ), and anybody that wants to use the new airfoil is welcome to them. All I'm doing is saving you the time it takes to turn the coordinates into drawings and plot them out. I have a feeling that the new airfoil would have been warmly received had Jeannette been JUST ABOUT to make new wing skin molds, rather than having JUST MADE them using the RAF48. I'm not mad at YOU Gary, just frustrated with the community as a whole. The new wing didn't come down from the mountaintop, so it'll never gain acceptance with some. Another thing that was overheard at the Gathering was that planes as wildly modified as mine shouldn't be allowed to come to the Gatherings at all. You know, if you banned all but the stockers from the Gathering, we'd have had two this year, and one of them came in on a truck for sale. And even then, Jim's plane has Diehl gear, which I don't believe is in the plans at all, so actually you'd have had one plane. Period. Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who consider the original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, and those who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things about the KR is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say that about an RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken place over the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:41:22 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: EagleGator@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-ID: <5f.b1a9861.27070f42@aol.com> I had a feeling this debate would become divisive, or at least become heated, at this year's gathering. I wish I could have been there to listen for myself. You need to compare apples to apples to make an informed assessment of performance improvements. Mark made this point very well, but it may have been lost to some in the parochialism of his post (sorry, Mark). I've flown in Marty's airplane, but not in Troy's. Marty's is much heavier than Troy's (700+ vs. <600, as I recall), but has more power. There is no way to compare these two airplanes with each other. If you want to make an informed decision on the performance impact of the "new wing", look at the data on Troy's airplane before and after he installed the new wing. Having said that, it really isn't quite that simple, as Troy has made a number of mods to his airplane that affect overall performance, and the mods are not complete (finish paint, etc.) Build your airplane. Use whichever wing you want. Both will fly. Establish a baseline for the performance of your unique aircraft's configuration. Find an airplane that compares to your aircraft configuration, and compare differences and performance numbers. Or better yet, as Mark suggested, build your airplane, collect performance data, and then make your modifications and recollect the same data points in the new configuration. It's an iterative process. It isn't easy. Is the new wing better than the old? Theoretically, yes. Based on derived performance on Troy's airplane, yes. How much better? There is no way to tell at this point, as no one has accomplished a proper flight test program that includes both the old and new wing on the same aircraft, with no other changes. Until this occurs, there is no valid argument, one way or the other, bourne out by flight test. However, science carries some weight here. I have wing skins and plan to use them, and I also plan to keep my airplane as light as possible. There will be no other airplane exactly like mine. There will be faster airplanes, and there will be slower airplanes. My personal opinion is that the difference in airspeed and efficiency, over the distance that most of will travel in our airplanes, will be in the noise level. I look forward to someone validating or invalidating my opinion through a comprehensive, objective test program. Until then, make your best educated assessment and go for it. Cheers, Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO KR-2S N415RJ, "The Phantom Eagle", 40% complete http://members.aol.com/eaglegator ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:26:41 -0400 To: "Mark Langford" From: "Robert E. Moser" Cc: "KR Network" Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000930002339.00b25180@viper> Hi Mark, I hope you don't REALLY tire of the fight... I for one am grateful that you (and everyone else) puts their heart into this little airplane. The community (and guys like you) are what have attracted me to KR's in the first place. I looked over the data, and from what I can see (after all, I'm a computer guy by trade) it looks good. It is evident that it was rigorously analyzed, given baseline testing in the windtunnel, and finally is starting to show results in the field. I will be using the new airfoil in my construction. Hopefully RR adopts it. Robert At 09:52 PM 9/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Gary Hinkle wrote: > > > As was told to me, Troy's 100hp new wing is slower than another KR >that > > has only 85hp and the old wing. I cannot remember who it was that had the > > other KR. > >Funny you should ask. That story got twisted around just a little bit. >Several of the pilots were overheard discussing this very matter at the >Gathering banquet. The word was that Marty had beat Troy flying straight >and level, and that the new wing "didn't help him a bit. > >I don't know Marty's side, but I can tell you what Troy says. Troy was >flying along and Marty flew up next to him and adjusted to his speed. >Apparently they got into an impromptu "drag race" and Marty " inched away" >from Troy. Now on the face of it, you could say that Marty beat Troy, and >you'd be absolutely correct. But Marty said later that he was doing 3100 >rpm, (although he told Troy he was doing 2900 at the time). Marty has an >0-200 with C-85 pistons (which raises the compression ratio), which Troy >estimates puts out 125 hp at 2900 rpm, more at 3100 rpm. Troy has a STOCK >C-85 with stock crank, which Troy guestimates puts out about 95 hp at 2900 >rpm. Consider also that Troy's wing is still rough sanded and only has >Smooth Prime on it for a paint job, and had just installed his wheel pants >and hasn't properly faired them into the legs yet, among other things. If I >were Troy and I got just barely beat by a guy with 32% more power than me, >I would feel too bad at all! > >Keep in mind that the planes weight different amounts, and use different >props, so once again, you can't say anything difinitive about anything. But >I'll tell ya'll, I'm getting really tired of defending the new airfoil when >the numbers and flight tests speak for themselves. All other things being >equal there is absolutely no doubt that the new airfoil is faster than the >RAF48, while stall speed remains the same. I guess that won't be >definitively proven until somebody with a flying KR takes the time to do >careful flight testing, then rips the wings off and replaces them with the >new airfoil (and absolutely nothing else) and redoes the testing. Until >then, I'm wasting my breath. > >On the way back from the Gathering Mark Lougheed and I were discussing this >very thing, and his opinion is that it's just a matter of time before the >new wing will be proven and becomes the defacto standard KR wing, so why >worry about whether people keep building the RAF48 rather than getting the >most out of their planes for the same amount of work? I don't know, but >this is where I give up. Somebody else is gonna have to carry on this >fight. > >You could argue that TET has a vested interest, since we sell the templates. >But those coordinates are public domain (at >http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as504x.html ), and anybody that wants to >use the new airfoil is welcome to them. All I'm doing is saving you the >time it takes to turn the coordinates into drawings and plot them out. I >have a feeling that the new airfoil would have been warmly received had >Jeannette been JUST ABOUT to make new wing skin molds, rather than having >JUST MADE them using the RAF48. > >I'm not mad at YOU Gary, just frustrated with the community as a whole. The >new wing didn't come down from the mountaintop, so it'll never gain >acceptance with some. > >Another thing that was overheard at the Gathering was that planes as wildly >modified as mine shouldn't be allowed to come to the Gatherings at all. You >know, if you banned all but the stockers from the Gathering, we'd have had >two this year, and one of them came in on a truck for sale. And even then, >Jim's plane has Diehl gear, which I don't believe is in the plans at all, so >actually you'd have had one plane. Period. > >Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who consider the >original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, and those >who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things about the KR >is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say that about an >RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken place over >the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:49:38 GMT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-ID: I consider the Lancairs, Pulsars, etc an updated, modified, all composite version of the KR. I wouldnt be adverse to seeing some more of them at the gatherings. Metal airplanes (ie RV) are for people who dont understand how durable wood and composite airplanes can be and are just trying to assemble a production airplane cheaper. I have no time for them. Rich Parker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who consider the original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, and those who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things about the KR is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say that about an RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken place over the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:22:25 -0700 To: "Richard Parker" , From: "BillStarrs" Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-ID: <001e01c02b03$013ac960$1b0b2aa2@starrs> There always those who lack the imagination to think of something new and different aor the guts to try it. So what do they do? They criticize and belittle without having the facts. Bill Starrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Parker" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 3:49 AM Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? > > I consider the Lancairs, Pulsars, etc an updated, modified, all composite > version of the KR. I wouldnt be adverse to seeing some more of them at the > gatherings. > > Metal airplanes (ie RV) are for people who dont understand how durable wood > and composite airplanes can be and are just trying to assemble a production > airplane cheaper. I have no time for them. > > Rich Parker > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who > consider the > original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, > and those > who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things > about the KR > is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say > that about an > RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken > place over > the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:10:26 -0500 To: "Richard Parker" ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: New Wing Slower?/opinions Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000930081026.0087a4f0@mail.midwest.net> >I consider the Lancairs, Pulsars, etc an updated, modified, all composite >version of the KR. I wouldnt be adverse to seeing some more of them at the >gatherings. >Metal airplanes (ie RV) are for people who dont understand how durable wood >and composite airplanes can be and are just trying to assemble a production >airplane cheaper. I have no time for them. >Rich Parker ============================================================================ Netters and builders, Let's not turn this into a "my airplane/design is better than your's" type of mud fight. There are a lot of good airplane designs out there and with unlimited funds, I might own one of each. They are all advancing the science of flight and we should celebrate that. I'm building a KR because it fits my budget, looks good and flies great. Let's not express our opinions as personal attacks and let's not read someone's differing opinion as a personal attack. Remember, there are a lot of us out here like me that may not know what we're talking about in our idle babbling. I appreciate the more knowledgable ones ( Mark and others) taking the time to inform us and keeping us somewhere near center on this building process. I hope they don't burn out on the job they have ahead of them. Everyone involved with the new wing should be proud of their accomplishments. I'm betting it will prove out in the end. Until then , go with what makes you comfortable or fits your building plan. The birth of a new wing doesn't mean the old one will fall out of the air. I'll close this with Larry's lesson for life #22: When you're absolutly convinced your right , without question, it's probably because you just don't have all the facts!! I'll through in # 16 also: Questions are good !! Have a nice day........ Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:54:26 -0500 To: flesner@midwest.net From: Tom Stokes Cc: richontheroad@hotmail.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> New Wing Slower?/opinions Message-ID: <20000930.115432.-346509.0.tomstokes1@juno.com> Larry I think this was a very good post and it is timely also, and to Mark please don't quit posting, I think you and Mike Mimms, The Muse's and other old timers give the best advice I have read. I truly apreciate your posts and read every one. When I have more than I can read I always read yours and Mike's, stay with us. Tom Stokes White Hall, AR tomstokes1@juno.com On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:10:26 -0500 larry flesner writes: I consider the Lancairs, Pulsars, etc an updated, modified, all composite version of the KR. I wouldnt be adverse to seeing some more of them at the gatherings. Metal airplanes (ie RV) are for people who dont understand how durable wood and composite airplanes can be and are just trying to assemble a production airplane cheaper. I have no time for them. >Rich Parker ======================================================================== ==== Netters and builders, Let's not turn this into a "my airplane/design is better than your's" type of mud fight. There are a lot of good airplane designs out there and with unlimited funds, I might own one of each. They are all advancing the science of flight and we should celebrate that. I'm building a KR because it fits my budget, looks good and flies great. Let's not express our opinions as personal attacks and let's not read someone's differing opinion as a personal attack. Remember, there are a lot of us out here like me that may not know what we're talking about in our idle babbling. I appreciate the more knowledgable ones ( Mark and others) taking the time to inform us and keeping us somewhere near center on this building process. I hope they don't burn out on the job they have ahead of them. Everyone involved with the new wing should be proud of their accomplishments. I'm betting it will prove out in the end. Until then , go with what makes you comfortable or fits your building plan. The birth of a new wing doesn't mean the old one will fall out of the air. I'll close this with Larry's lesson for life #22: When you're absolutly convinced your right , without question, it's probably because you just don't have all the facts!! I'll through in # 16 also: Questions are good !! Have a nice day........ Larry Flesner ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagh. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:24:41 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> New Wing Slower?/opinions Message-ID: <009c01c02b14$1555f8f0$f2de8e18@300emachine> Tom wrote: >I think this was a very good post and it is timely also, and to Mark > please don't quit posting, Don't sweat it. I'm not THAT much of a baby. But I do plan to quit trying to "push" the new airfoil. About all it does for me but make people question my motives. Both Rick and Larry put it all in perspective, and I probably should have slept on it before posting what I did. Just because your plane has an RAF48 on it does not make in any less an airplane, and I really shouldn't care what you use on YOUR plane. But speaking of posting, I wish somebody else would answer some of these questions. I usually try to wait a little while for others to jump in, but sometimes I get the feeling it won't get answered if I don't do it. And I happen to know that there are at least 200 of you guys who have a set of S plans close by. It's not my mailing list, and I try not to "hog" it, but I sure spend a lot of time at the trough, that I should be spending in the basement. I guess that's my fault though. Nobody's going to hurt my feelings by jumping on a question before I get to it. I still haven't posted my Gathering pictures, and will try to do it this weekend. I doctored up that picture of Marty's plane to make a better wallpaper image. I added an inch of terrain below the plane with PaintShop (I snapped it without looking through the viewfinder, truly point and shoot!) and re-cropped it so that it's closer to typical PC monitor display aspect ratio. It's at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/marty_wallpaper.jpg . In other news, I decided to do my wingtips right and build plugs that I can pull molds off of, which makes it easy to do the Plexigl*s light covers, so I ordered real Whel*n wing tip lights. They draw 2 amps, so I'll need at least 20 ga wire run out there, rather than the 22 that I have now. I gave up on LEDs. They just don't have the angular visibilty that you need for a nav light, and I'm tired of messing around with this... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:03:08 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth Burch Subject: KR 1 B Message-ID: <39D5F29C.B883B2BC@bellsouth.net> Has anyone built the KR 1 B with the sailplane wings? Ken Burch KR Newbie I have been looking for a while and now that I have the time I think this is the one. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:16:11 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Phil Visconti Subject: SPAR DEFINITIONS ? Message-ID: <39D603BB.600BC6EA@gis.net> --------------5212DB3C272A4F784B530D96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does the word "web" mean ? With the current discussion of wings, maybe someone can explain the word "web" as it applies to the KR wing spars. The KR manual states (in part) "...glue plywood into strips long enough to use as the webs." The Diehl instructions originally said the same thing PLUS...drill a 3/16 inch hole through the webs for air pressure equalization. I bought my project from a friend that had already made the wings. I did not see any holes in what I thought would be one of the webs. (Inboard spar end.) So, I made a 9 foot drill bit and drilled a 3/16 inch hole in each web. I believed the webs were the vertical spruce pieces between the top and bottom parts of the spar. HOWEVER, when I cut out the ailerons, the wing came apart. The skins separated from the spar and ribs. This happened on both wings. (My friend had used epoxy (instead of vinylester) without sanding skins.) When wings were opened, I saw that my friend had drilled through the plywood sides of spar. He called the plywood the web and drilled holes every 6 inchs along spar for equal pressure in each "cell". Where should the holes have been drilled ? Any problem with holes in sides PLUS holes through vertical members ? Phil Visconti Marlboro, MA --------------5212DB3C272A4F784B530D96-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:05:46 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> SPAR DEFINITIONS ? Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000930115835.00953ae0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2032488==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:16 AM 9/30/2000 -0400, Phil Visconti wrote: >What does the word "web" mean ? The web is the plywood that covers both sides of the spar, joining the spar caps (the heavy pieces of wood on the top and bottom). The vertical pieces of spruce are interstitial spacers that hold the spar caps in the correct orientation. The spar caps carry the compressive and tensile loads in the spar. The plywood web carries the shear load that is developed between the spar caps. In certain designs, the interstitial spacers are not used. The pressure relief holes can be drilled in almost any orientation as long as they are not through the spar caps. They prevent any cavity or cell from being a closed system and allow the air pressure to be equal inside the structure of the spar. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va KR2XL construction at http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://users.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html --=====================_2032488==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************