From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 2 Oct 2000 13:19:45 -0000 Issue 99 Date: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:20 AM krnet Digest 2 Oct 2000 13:19:45 -0000 Issue 99 Topics (messages 2258 through 2287): Attacks 2258 by: Dave and Tina Goodman KR design variations/performance/time value 2259 by: Guenther Bryce Re: Building homebuilt in a garage 2260 by: Frank Ross Re: krnet Digest 30 Sep 2000 19:22:33 -0000 Issue 98 2261 by: fuller Aft Spar Web Question 2262 by: ACMan5548.aol.com aft spar ply 2263 by: JAMES Re: New Wing Slower?/opinions 2264 by: Frank Ross Re: SPAR DEFINITIONS ? 2265 by: Frank Ross 2267 by: Mike Mims 2275 by: Donald Reid SPARS ? 2266 by: Phil Visconti 2268 by: Mark Langford Subaru Search 2269 by: Peter Johnson Re: KR's and COPPERSTATE! 2270 by: Ross Youngblood Re: Tiedown stuff 2271 by: Ross Youngblood 2273 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER Spamcan woes 2272 by: Ross Youngblood Whew! N541RY photos updated 2274 by: Ross Youngblood DOUBLE POSTINGS 2276 by: Frank Ross 2278 by: Frank Ross 2279 by: Mike Mims The Aft Spar Question....Answer?? 2277 by: ACMan5548.aol.com Project for sale 2280 by: Mike Mims 2281 by: Bruce Watkins 2282 by: Mike Mims Update: Archives site 2283 by: John Bouyea test 2284 by: Jim Payne Re: Jim Sellars 2285 by: James Sellars Re: Is The New Wing Slower? 2286 by: James Sellars 2287 by: James Sellars Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:35:00 -0700 To: From: "Dave and Tina Goodman" Subject: Attacks Message-ID: <000c01c02b15$8716cd60$ba780ccf@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02ADA.D9577B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay folks, enough of the personal attacks, veiled or otherwise. If you = have a difference with something someone is putting out, say your piece = objectively and be silent. Let the folks who are building decide what = is or is not the best idea by reading the objective input of those who = have something to say. The corvaircraft mailing list just went through = this same thing with attacks based on opinion and personal feelings with = absolutely no objectivity. Get over it people! What is the matter with everyone? This is experimental aviation! = Experiment! Have fun! Talk about what you have done or what you think, = but recognize your opinion is just that... opinion. Get off the high = horse of "my plane and my ideas are better than yours." Why do you = think there are so many different "types" of KRs out there, much less = how many different designs. Anyone looked in an Aerocrafter lately? = Which plane is the best? Answer: They all are! I have news for you, in every builder's eyes no one else's plane will be = as good as his. And every builder is equally right is saying this, = because it is HIS airplane, reflecting his personality and abilities. = So what if one person's plane is 2.22564 knots faster than someone = else's. It only matters if it matters to the people involved. Is one = wing better than the other? It depends! Check your egos at the desktop and stop fighting each other on the = mailing list. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am here to learn = something from those who have great ideas. That does not mean I am = going to build everything the way someone else suggests to me that it be = done. Majority wins on my project... and my wants are always at least = 51% of the vote. Mark, Mike, Donald, and all of the others out there who have built or = are building great planes are to be commended for their efforts... and = their willingness to be patient with those of us who know less than they = do and ask many questions. Imagine if these folks just kept to = themselves and said nothing on the net? I have watched several people = put up with ridiculous slander and accusations of incompetence hurled by = people who do not even have a flying aircraft! One must have the = patience of Job to put up with this. Thank you to all who have shared on the mailing list and have answered = my questions. Folks, lets get back to the experimental side of this = hobby we have and the joy we felt when we started building and flying. = Stop the fighting. There is not a war on here. Dave "Zipper" Goodman zipperts@whidbey.net ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02ADA.D9577B00-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:49:34 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Guenther Bryce Subject: KR design variations/performance/time value Message-ID: <20000930194934.17128.qmail@web9009.mail.yahoo.com> The Aerodynamist fundamentals of Lift Thrust Gravity & Drag are the compromising elements of the KR design argument. R & D traditionally condones Research & Developement however todays interpretation is Ripoff & Duplicate. Since the KR introduction the experimental designs offer common characteristics with a trained examining eye the similaritys manifest the shape proportions and planform. The aerodynamist of RAF48 where not convolluted neophites they really researched acceptable airfoil criteria. What each person who subjects their (analysis) opinion is saying without having vectors is argumentive only. A mature attitude with the experimental aircraft movement would be best related with education and enjoyment mutually shared. A great analogy would be a sail plane each has an equivalent flat plate area drag and performs predictably the sail plane operators strive for lower weight and lower drag and have minute gains. The KR aircraft is basically a very small aircraft and everybody knows that the wetted area is small and Ken Rand simply designed a reasonably small aircraft around basic aerodynamic features that have a working relationship Lift Thrust Gravity and Drag. His basic warnings were always keep it light!Educating yourself of how much Horse Power additional is required to lift that extra weight is astounding. The more impressive comparison of KR design variations would be who could go the fastest with the least HP and the least weight, and still not stall at 65 knots (max allowable). What is a KR gathering ? To me if it resembles a KR its a KR. If the model designation for FAA registration is (your name KR) its a KR. This is only inccidental to similarity and as far as who prospers from the design I can only see the end for Jeanette because to claim ownership of variant designs would certainly made desendents of Orville and Wilbur kings. To be protective for the sack of posterity does not benefit the education and enjoyment of experimental aviators the world over and actually hinders flying. It would be best to say Let R & D (ripoff and duplicate) prevail. The 2000 gathering exhibited the nature of current technology in that to pull cowling patterns and wheel pants patterns for mold making identical parts off an existing KR in just a few hours of work is the end of Rand. We see cheap parts of the most time consuming home builder labors available in the (underground)market. Anybody in their right mind would get those parts to build their KR for who really cares about giving their personnal time away. "Keep it light" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:05:09 -0700 (PDT) To: HAshraf@aol.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> Building homebuilt in a garage Message-ID: <20000930230509.21492.qmail@web4702.mail.yahoo.com> Haris, Just got back and found 145 net-notes. I lived in Vacaville a couple years ago and found several folk in my neighborhood building everything from RV-4s, giant size RC models, restoring classic cars and building stock-cars in their garages. Nice neighborhood, you'd never know except that when we went for walks in the eve, garage doors were open and we got to stop and talk. Never heard any objections. Most associations only object if a "project" is permanantly in the driveway causing an unsightly nuisance or making loud noises late at night. Sure beats having a Meth Lab next door. ;) I would talk to the association before buying and find a place that will have clear-cut guidelines that allow you to build without fear. You may find someone already building in the neighborhood on the association board. Good Luck! --- HAshraf@aol.com wrote: > I am looking to buy a house here in So. California. > I was hoping to move my > project in my garage and try to work on it (there is > no basement in the > house). On realtor's advice I went to the city hall > to look at the > regulations and what I found was not very > encouraging. The neighborhood also > have a very active home owner association and I was > also advised to talk to > them. > > My boat is all done and I plan to use smooth prime > to paint so there are no > noise and toxic fumes issues. I mainly need to add > systems, control > instruments. > > It would help me a lot if people in similar > situation share their > experiences. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:57:59 -0600 To: , From: "fuller" Subject: Re: krnet Digest 30 Sep 2000 19:22:33 -0000 Issue 98 Message-ID: <001801c02b3a$43aa36a0$d69ea7d8@oemcomputer> Hey Netters, The Carlsbad and Roswell EAA chapters are co-sponsoring the first annual Pecos Valley Air Race & Fly In October 27 & 28 in Artesia NM. Friday arrivals will be treated to the best Green Chili Stew in the South West. Saturday there will be a 100 mile closed course race with four divisions, static displays, RC flying, and a paper airplane race for the kids. Food and lots of parking for airplanes, cars, and RV's. Join us at one of the best little FBO's around (Artesia Municipal). For Info Call (505) 746-9852 or email fuller@pvtnetworks.net Gaylon Fuller ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:40:00 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org (krnet user group) From: ACMan5548@aol.com Subject: Aft Spar Web Question Message-ID: <71.70d33f2.27080c10@aol.com> Does the aft spar on a KR2S get plywood on both side? I don't see any specific instruction in the manual or the drawings. Some drawings show plywood both sides some don't. Tony Mission Viejo, CA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:25:46 -0700 To: From: "JAMES" Subject: aft spar ply Message-ID: <004601c02b68$0e6b9aa0$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C02B2D.60DEA2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tony, as i understand, (and i built mine) ALL the spars, front. back, = center and outer spars get ply on BOTH sides , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> New Wing Slower?/opinions Message-ID: <20001001134323.4082.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com> This is the second posting I have recieved of this reply from Mark. I only mention this because I have been getting a LOT of double postings lately. Is it a web thing? Anybody else getting a lot of double postings? I also seem to get a lot of delayed postings. Got Gary Hinkle's question about the airfoils after about 30 answers, admonitions, etc. I just got back from my long drive to NC after Lake Barkley, and I want to congratulate Dana and all who helped for giving us such a great time and place to have it in. Kentucky has become one of my favorite places now. I had a wonderful time, met a LOT of great people and saw some of my favorite airplanes. Thanks to all, Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX. --- Mark Langford wrote: > Tom wrote: > > >I think this was a very good post and it is timely > also, and to Mark > > please don't quit posting, > > Don't sweat it. I'm not THAT much of a baby. But I > do plan to quit trying > to "push" the new airfoil. About all it does for me > but make people > question my motives. Both Rick and Larry put it all > in perspective, and I > probably should have slept on it before posting what > I did. Just because > your plane has an RAF48 on it does not make in any > less an airplane, and I > really shouldn't care what you use on YOUR plane. > > But speaking of posting, I wish somebody else would > answer some of these > questions. I usually try to wait a little while for > others to jump in, but > sometimes I get the feeling it won't get answered if > I don't do it. And I > happen to know that there are at least 200 of you > guys who have a set of S > plans close by. It's not my mailing list, and I try > not to "hog" it, but I > sure spend a lot of time at the trough, that I > should be spending in the > basement. I guess that's my fault though. Nobody's > going to hurt my > feelings by jumping on a question before I get to > it. > > I still haven't posted my Gathering pictures, and > will try to do it this > weekend. I doctored up that picture of Marty's > plane to make a better > wallpaper image. I added an inch of terrain below > the plane with PaintShop > (I snapped it without looking through the > viewfinder, truly point and > shoot!) and re-cropped it so that it's closer to > typical PC monitor display > aspect ratio. It's at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/marty_wallpaper.jpg > . > > In other news, I decided to do my wingtips right and > build plugs that I can > pull molds off of, which makes it easy to do the > Plexigl*s light covers, so > I ordered real Whel*n wing tip lights. They draw 2 > amps, so I'll need at > least 20 ga wire run out there, rather than the 22 > that I have now. I gave > up on LEDs. They just don't have the angular > visibilty that you need for a > nav light, and I'm tired of messing around with > this... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 06:58:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Donald Reid , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> SPAR DEFINITIONS ? Message-ID: <20001001135800.5144.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com> Don, Others, I have spars that were not drilled and are closed. If I do drill them, the insides are not "varnished". Are they subject to moisture damage? Is this pressure difference that critical at the altitudes and speeds the KR is intended for? Did the early, successful KRs have these pressure holes? Thanks, and thanks to Don for a well thought-out, concise answer. Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX --- Donald Reid wrote: > At 11:16 AM 9/30/2000 -0400, Phil Visconti wrote: > >What does the word "web" mean ? > > The web is the plywood that covers both sides of the > spar, joining the spar > caps (the heavy pieces of wood on the top and > bottom). The vertical pieces > of spruce are interstitial spacers that hold the > spar caps in the correct > orientation. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 09:38:31 -0700 To: Frank Ross From: Mike Mims CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> SPAR DEFINITIONS ? Message-ID: <39D76887.948845@home.com> Frank Ross wrote: >Did the early, successful KRs have these pressure holes? > For the most part the early KRs did not have plywood on both sides of the spars. Of course the main spar did but it also has holes drilled in it for the main landing gear brackets, control stick, etc. __________________ Micheal Mims Trying to get this thing done! http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://explanes.com/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:48:43 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> SPAR DEFINITIONS ? Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001001183537.00953e40@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2647094==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:58 AM 10/1/2000 -0700, Frank Ross wrote: >Don, Others, >I have spars that were not drilled and are closed. If >I do drill them, the insides are not "varnished". Are >they subject to moisture damage? Is this pressure >difference that critical at the altitudes and speeds >the KR is intended for? Any wooden surface that is not sealed with varnish or epoxy is subject to rot. Differential air pressure during flight may cause a "pumping" action. As you climb to altitude, ground level air will expand out of the structure. As you descend, the air will be drawn back into the structure. This will be a very small airflow, but it will ensure that the interior of the structure is at equilibrium humidity conditions. I suspect that this will accelerate the wood rot. If the spars are not mounted in a wing yet, you can drill relief holes, add some type of liquid sealant (varnish or epoxy) and slosh it around inside the cavity. If the spars are sealed, the differential air pressure will cause a slight decrease in the overall strength of the spar. If you fly a turbo-KR at extreme flight levels and the structure is perfectly sealed, it would probably fail due to the pressure differential. In "normal" circumstances, it probably won't. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va KR2XL construction at http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://users.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html --=====================_2647094==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:01:37 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Phil Visconti Subject: SPARS ? Message-ID: <39D75FE0.4862D45D@gis.net> --------------E81AB3EC0EB9CD6DD12999FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just found an old issue of the KR Newsletter (#187 dtd Dec. 1992) that has an article by Neil Bingham. The article refers to the dangers that may be encounted if vent holes are not in wings. He also did an article on the analysis of the KR in EAA Sport Aviation. I don't remember what issue. If anyone is interested, I'll go look in my back issues of Sport Aviation. Also, aren't there small vent holes in trailing edge of J-3 wings ? Phil Visconti Marlboro, MA --------------E81AB3EC0EB9CD6DD12999FB-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:36:09 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> SPARS ? Message-ID: <000c01c02bce$1648c8e0$f2de8e18@300emachine> Phil wrote: >He also did an > article on the analysis of the KR in EAA Sport Aviation. It's already on the web and can be accessed from my "KR Opinions" page at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kopinion.html or directly at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/neilb.html . Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:57:23 -0700 To: "Frank Ross" , "Mark Langford" , From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Subaru Search Message-ID: <000801c02be1$d5b63ce0$9009eccf@peter> Hello everyone. I am looking for the Soob Conversion email list that is on the internet. Can anyone give me an address for it? Specifically, I am looking for hp output and weight of the direct drive turbo EA81, conversion requirements, and all around success of this engine for my KR-2S. Is anyone on this list aware of this information? Thanks KR-2S in a box. mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 14:23:25 -0700 To: jeb@thuntek.net From: Ross Youngblood CC: bmuse@ev1.net, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR's and COPPERSTATE! Message-ID: <39D7AB4D.D06C7FD8@teleport.com> OK Great! I dropped a line to the local EAA folks earlier in the week about me trailering my KR out there... (Trailing jokes aside). I'm waiting to hear back. I will be OUT until Friday night... we need to decide on a place to meet up Saturday, or let me know where you are staying, and I can call you. I will probably not have access to email after Tuesday. (I'm going off for training, and I don't have a laptop anymore with the new job). - Ross John wrote: > Ross and Krnet - > The Los Alamos contingent will be flying down on Thursday > hope to see lots of you guys. > > On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Ross Youngblood wrote: > > Bobby, > > I just picked up a flyer for Copperstate at my FBO when I went > > flying this week. I WILL be at Copperstate Saturday and Sunday, > > unfortunatly, I can't be there on Friday as I am going to be on the > > tail end of a trip to Oregon for some work related training. > > I have not made contact with the EAA folks here to see about > > getting my KR on display out there, but if I get my other tiedown > > ring installed, it might be possible. It will probably be easier for > > me to just bring folks up to my house to look at the KR, soak > > in the spa or pool and barbeque.... > > > > -- Ross > > > > > > > > B&B Muse wrote: > > > > > Ross Youngblood wrote: > > > > > > > Whew! it feels good to get out and work on the plane again. It looks > > > > like > > > > fall is around the corner as the temperature was below 100 degrees here > > > > in the Phoenix Area. I pulled the KR out of the garage to do some minor > > > > > > > > work and actually got some work done. > > > > > > > > I re-installed the left aileron hinge (hasn't been on since before > > > > paint), and > > > > worked on the canopy latch. I think once I get the canopy latch done, > > > > and > > > > fix a minor fuel system leak (near the selector valve), I will be ready > > > > to do > > > > some taxi testing! Well, there is the minor issue of the tiedown > > > > anchors in > > > > the wings... I have made blocks for them, but need to cut into the wing > > > > and install them. > > > > > > > > I have found a nice tiedown spot to take my airplane for taxi testing > > > > (I think), > > > > but there is still the old Williams Air Force Base... that might be a > > > > better choice. > > > > > > > > I ordered my last foam (I hope), and a carb heat box for a Long-Ez, > > > > along > > > > with a cabin heat box... this should finish my firewall.. I figure I can > > > > take > > > > the Long-EZ carb heat box apart and fab what I need from it to make > > > > a good carb heat box for the Ellison. I'm not in a hurry for that as I > > > > figure I can start taxi testing without Carb heat or Cabin heat. > > > > > > > > Anyone have some good canopy lock ideas? Jeff Scott had a good one > > > > I thought which involved a key at the top center rear of the canopy. I > > > > may go this route... nothing will be perfect, but it would discourage > > > > folks from messing with the bird if it's only tied down. > > > > > > > > I hope to get the wings on and take some photos for my website tomorrow. > > > > > > > > I have been neglecting this for some time... and think it is time for > > > > some > > > > new photos. > > > > > > > > -- Regards > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > Ross, are you going to ready to show or atleast display your KR at the > > > Copper State Flyin next month? I will be there. > > > > > > Bobby Muse > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > -- > John > Los Alamos NM > jeb@thuntek.net > http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 14:34:03 -0700 To: GARYKR2@cs.com From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Tiedown stuff Message-ID: <39D7ADCB.7F485E13@teleport.com> Gary, Thanks! I had already placed one of the anchors when I recieved the email suggesting to "not" do it. I'm thinking that the stress on the wings would be less than or equal to that you would see in flight at least on the spar. I haven't drawn a free body diagram and done any calculations, but each wing would have to generate about 300# of lift to get the plane to want to start to leave the ground. If you are in level flight, I think you have roughly that condition. Then, I am trying to hold down the 300# lift component via the tiedown ring, but I have mechanical advantage at the end of the wing which will multiply the force. Also the wheels will take some of the rotational force too (I think). I could have it wrong, and the stresses at the tiedown anchor end of the spar could be extreme, but I'm not going to worry about it until the thing rips out. -- Ross GARYKR2@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/29/00 1:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rossy@teleport.com writes: > > << FYI, > I went out and measured tiedowns at the local airport here.. > > 23' wide across the "T" and 17' from the center of the T to the tail. > > This means my tiedown anchor bolts will be near the END of the wing. > > -- Ross >> > > That is normal. I had to place my tiedown fittings in the outer spars > also. > The plus of this is that less stress is placed on the wings when the > winds blow. By tying at the tips, you are able to prevent the wings from > "flapping" and slamming against the ropes. > I had my "2" out side for 6mos. When the storms hit, mine was the only > airplane that sat still on the ramp. The worst storm moved 23 of the 24 A/C. > Ripped my canopy cover to shreds, But she never moved. The people at the FBO > said it was weird to see all the "store bought" airplanes shaking and > twisting and my little "toy airplane" sit there as if there wasn't a bit of > wind anywhere. > Remember Ross, with a KR it is OK the think outside of the box. Nowhere > does it say that all tiedowns have to be placed only 1/3 out from the > fuselage. > Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. > garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:06:22 -0400 To: "Ross Youngblood" , From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Cc: Subject: RE: KR> Tiedown stuff Message-ID: You're on the right track as far as calculations are concerned, but the more direct line routing will keep it fro m wallowing around and jerking. Ends of the wings ought ot be great. ( IMHO ) Ron Freiberger...About to build wings in Florida mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Ross Youngblood [mailto:rossy@teleport.com] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:34 PM To: GARYKR2@cs.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Tiedown stuff Gary, Thanks! I had already placed one of the anchors when I recieved the email suggesting to "not" do it. I'm thinking that the stress on the wings would be less than or equal to that you would see in flight at least on the spar. I haven't drawn a free body diagram and done any calculations, but each wing would have to generate about 300# of lift to get the plane to want to start to leave the ground. If you are in level flight, I think you have roughly that condition. Then, I am trying to hold down the 300# lift component via the tiedown ring, but I have mechanical advantage at the end of the wing which will multiply the force. Also the wheels will take some of the rotational force too (I think). I could have it wrong, and the stresses at the tiedown anchor end of the spar could be extreme, but I'm not going to worry about it until the thing rips out. -- Ross GARYKR2@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/29/00 1:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rossy@teleport.com writes: > > << FYI, > I went out and measured tiedowns at the local airport here.. > > 23' wide across the "T" and 17' from the center of the T to the tail. > > This means my tiedown anchor bolts will be near the END of the wing. > > -- Ross >> > > That is normal. I had to place my tiedown fittings in the outer spars > also. > The plus of this is that less stress is placed on the wings when the > winds blow. By tying at the tips, you are able to prevent the wings from > "flapping" and slamming against the ropes. > I had my "2" out side for 6mos. When the storms hit, mine was the only > airplane that sat still on the ramp. The worst storm moved 23 of the 24 A/C. > Ripped my canopy cover to shreds, But she never moved. The people at the FBO > said it was weird to see all the "store bought" airplanes shaking and > twisting and my little "toy airplane" sit there as if there wasn't a bit of > wind anywhere. > Remember Ross, with a KR it is OK the think outside of the box. Nowhere > does it say that all tiedowns have to be placed only 1/3 out from the > fuselage. > Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. > garykr2@cs.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 14:43:50 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Spamcan woes Message-ID: <39D7B016.AE51EDBB@teleport.com> Whew... Saturday I logged 6.9 hours in a spamcan going to Durango CO and back. Fun trip, but I noticed a couple of things... 1) It isn't as much fun if you have to bring the plane back the same day you rent it. (3-4 hours is my limit flying if you have to get back where you started) This is good motivation to finish the KR. 2) I hope my KR will fly slightly faster than the Archers 95 kts indicated. (Can we get a re-posting of what foks flying behind VW power are getting indicated with their KR's?) Even if I can't outfly the Archer, 4gph vs 10gph will eliminate a fuel stop here and there... also My KR with 24 gal has 2X the hours of fuel on board maximum (8 hrs vs 4). Howver if you saw note 1, you will understand I'm not likely to need that much fuel on board.. 3) It's still pretty hot here in Arizona, put my wings on today to take some photograps (to be posted). This is slowing my efforts down. -- Regards Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:41:21 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Whew! N541RY photos updated Message-ID: <39D7BD91.DF569F2D@teleport.com> Whew! It took a couple of hours to rig the wings back on! But it was worth it. I now have updated photos on my webpage of N541RY. http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm These are the first photos with the wings on which include ailerons. You might notice that the flaps are not yet installed, and the cowling needs painting... also right below the KRnet logo on the tail you will see a hole that I am preparing to build an access cover for. I was planning to weigh the KR, but it took so much energy to get the wings on, I think I will save that for another time... I will yank the wings and back into the garage for now. I have one more tiedown ring mount to install in the right wing, then I can consider hauling the plane to the airport for taxi tests. I have a Long-Eze carb heat box on back order which I am hoping I can cobble into a solution and get on with things. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:49:26 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: DOUBLE POSTINGS Message-ID: <20001001224926.9403.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com> Is anyone else getting double postings? I'm getting two of everything. Not complaining, better than none of anything. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:11:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Frank Ross , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> DOUBLE POSTINGS Message-ID: <20001001231144.9143.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> Never mind. Sorry, went back and checked. Did have some doubles that I can't understand but several were folk using my posting to post an entirely new message which still sends two to me. Thanks for indulging me. Frank --- Frank Ross wrote: > Is anyone else getting double postings? ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:30:19 -0700 From: Mike Mims CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> DOUBLE POSTINGS Message-ID: <39D7C90B.961A7196@home.com> Frank Ross wrote: > > Never mind. Frank, if someone hits reply to all and does not take the sender out of the too field you will get two. __________________ Micheal Mims Trying to get this thing done! http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://explanes.com/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:57:42 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org (krnet user group) From: ACMan5548@aol.com Subject: The Aft Spar Question....Answer?? Message-ID: I believe I figured out the problem. The manual on page 21, Drawing NO. 16, for the Outer Wing Aft Spar shows "Plywood over 2nd and 3rd vert. pieces aft side" I believe this should read, Over the 1st and 2nd vert. pieces aft side. This would serve as a spacer for the WAFs, the same as for the Outer Wing Fwr. Spar, drawing NO. 15 above. If I am correct, it makes sense to cover the back side of the Center Aft Spar, (As most of the drawings show), and the location of the plywood pieces on the outer aft spar would correct for the additional spar thickness. Please confirm I'm thinking correctly on this. Thanks; Tony Mission Viejo, CA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:38:09 -0700 From: Mike Mims CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Project for sale Message-ID: <39D7CAE1.3562DC48@home.com> Well guys it seems that if its not one thing around here its another. I am in a situation that dictates my dream must go on hold for a few years. I also need to get rid of any unnecessary expenditures I.E. hanger rent, toys (airplane). So I hate to do this but after thinking long and hard I must sell my project. I am sure most of you have seen it on the web. Its perfect for one of the new larger engines but will also work just fine with a 2180 VW. I hate to figure out how much I have into this thing but I am sure its close to $6k or so (just the airframe). That being said I would like to get at least $3k for it but will negotiate. If someone wants the entire package (airframe, O-290 engine, King handheld radio, and boxes of other stuff) I would let it go for $5k. Its almost easier to list the things I do not have so here goes. I do not have any flight or engine instruments, switches and or avionics. Basically its an airframe that needs some finishing and then add your instruments and avionics. Email me if interested. emailto:mikemims@home.com __________________ Micheal Mims Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:58:51 -0500 From: Bruce Watkins CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Project for sale Message-ID: <39D7CFBB.8A936AB4@clas.net> Micheal, SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!!! You not building a KR is just not right!!!! Bruce-- mailto:flyer@clas.net http://users.clas.net/~flyer -- Mike Mims wrote: > > Well guys it seems that if its not one thing around here its another. I > am in a situation that dictates my dream must go on hold for a few > years. I also need to get rid of any unnecessary expenditures I.E. > hanger rent, toys (airplane). So I hate to do this but after thinking > long and hard I must sell my project. I am sure most of you have seen it > on the web. Its perfect for one of the new larger engines but will also > work just fine with a 2180 VW. I hate to figure out how much I have into > this thing but I am sure its close to $6k or so (just the airframe). > That being said I would like to get at least $3k for it but will > negotiate. If someone wants the entire package (airframe, O-290 engine, > King handheld radio, and boxes of other stuff) I would let it go for > $5k. Its almost easier to list the things I do not have so here goes. I > do not have any flight or engine instruments, switches and or avionics. > Basically its an airframe that needs some finishing and then add your > instruments and avionics. Email me if interested. > > emailto:mikemims@home.com > > __________________ > Micheal Mims > Aliso Viejo Ca > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 17:29:00 -0700 From: Mike Mims CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Project for sale Message-ID: <39D7D6CC.BD7677D7@home.com> Bruce Watkins wrote: > > Micheal, > SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!!! You not building a KR is just not right!!!! Trust me I will build another one! :o) __________________ Micheal Mims Trying to get this thing done! http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://explanes.com/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:07:21 -0700 To: From: "John Bouyea" Subject: Update: Archives site Message-ID: <001101c02c26$47b81680$036414ac@timberline.com> Long time, no post. I'm working in a different position now and my easy access to the T1 is just a memory,. I'm going to need to make a few changes to getting to the archives site. I have an order to install DSL at my house and hope to move the archives server to that location IF AND WHEN the ISP can get me hooked up. What does this mean to accessing the archives? I hope to continue to provide uninterupted access to the http://kr2s.timberline.com archives server as long as I can. I will to move it to my new domain http://www.bouyea.net/krnet when I get hooked up to DSL. I will post here when the change occurs as anyone with links will need to make a change. This is just a heads up! Kimball Anderson, are ou still out there? If so, drop me a note, ok? Your humble archives tender, Bou John Bouyea Hillsboro, Oregon http://kr2s.timberline.com #1: KR2S - boat stage, building spars #2: KR1 - disassembly completed, parts inventoried #3: KR2 - on the gear, building ailerons #4: KR2 - converting to Deihl gear. & workig my tail off at the office! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 07:52:53 -0400 To: From: "Jim Payne" Subject: test Message-ID: testing my email...haven't gotten any KRNet Email in 3 day's... all other email is going thru fine. Jim Payne jim@manufacturingconcepts.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 09:50:59 -0300 To: "Cary Honeywell" , From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> Jim Sellars Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001002094510.00acfc00@mail.auracom.com> Cary; I am very interested in an airframe that I could mount my engine and instruments to. We determined that the problem was fuel contamination. Although we always drained fuel from the tank we must have got into some kind of dirt and sludge in the tank that restricted the fuel flow to the injectors. Having gone through that process I would finish an airframe that was near completion in a heart beat. I'm not too interested in a project that still has thousands of hours to finish. Prefer a "S" model tail dragger, and Canadian as it is easier to register. Let me know if you hear of something. KR-2 is best but sonerai or midget mustang or sonex would certainly do. Regards Jim & thanks At 10:21 AM 9/29/00 -0400, Cary Honeywell wrote: >Sorry. I have to reply here. Jim's IPS determined that my email was spam so >I can't reply to him directly. > >Jim: I will keep my eyes posted for a KR2 for you. Thanks reply. > >- Cary - > >(Hey this is Friday isn't it?) > > -Cary Honeywell - >Ottawa Ontario Canada >caryh@home.com >ve3ev@rac.ca >Home page http://24.112.208.98/ >KR2 area http://24.112.208.98/kr2/kr2.shtml > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:11:14 -0300 To: "Mark Langford" , From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001002100130.00ac13a0@mail.auracom.com> Mark; You're exactly correct. The little plane flies very well as it is, but the S is a clear improvement in comfort if nothing else, and the new wing got to be a more into the modern age even if the old RAF 48 does work well. I had an aircraft design engineer laugh right out loud when he got the answer to his question, "what airfoil does the plane use?" Efficiency and modification is absolutely the goal of itself. What do they say is the rational for letting people build aircraft, if not personal education and enjoyment. These modifications, and the process of using different engines, props, airfoils, and general rigging is why we have this information exchange. I for one vote that you go right ahead and continue with what you've been doing. I'm glad we have the information and the opportunity to question it. Regards Jim At 09:52 PM 9/29/00 -0500, Mark Langford wrote: >Gary Hinkle wrote: > > > As was told to me, Troy's 100hp new wing is slower than another KR >that > > has only 85hp and the old wing. I cannot remember who it was that had the > > other KR. > >Funny you should ask. That story got twisted around just a little bit. >Several of the pilots were overheard discussing this very matter at the >Gathering banquet. The word was that Marty had beat Troy flying straight >and level, and that the new wing "didn't help him a bit. > >I don't know Marty's side, but I can tell you what Troy says. Troy was >flying along and Marty flew up next to him and adjusted to his speed. >Apparently they got into an impromptu "drag race" and Marty " inched away" >from Troy. Now on the face of it, you could say that Marty beat Troy, and >you'd be absolutely correct. But Marty said later that he was doing 3100 >rpm, (although he told Troy he was doing 2900 at the time). Marty has an >0-200 with C-85 pistons (which raises the compression ratio), which Troy >estimates puts out 125 hp at 2900 rpm, more at 3100 rpm. Troy has a STOCK >C-85 with stock crank, which Troy guestimates puts out about 95 hp at 2900 >rpm. Consider also that Troy's wing is still rough sanded and only has >Smooth Prime on it for a paint job, and had just installed his wheel pants >and hasn't properly faired them into the legs yet, among other things. If I >were Troy and I got just barely beat by a guy with 32% more power than me, >I would feel too bad at all! > >Keep in mind that the planes weight different amounts, and use different >props, so once again, you can't say anything difinitive about anything. But >I'll tell ya'll, I'm getting really tired of defending the new airfoil when >the numbers and flight tests speak for themselves. All other things being >equal there is absolutely no doubt that the new airfoil is faster than the >RAF48, while stall speed remains the same. I guess that won't be >definitively proven until somebody with a flying KR takes the time to do >careful flight testing, then rips the wings off and replaces them with the >new airfoil (and absolutely nothing else) and redoes the testing. Until >then, I'm wasting my breath. > >On the way back from the Gathering Mark Lougheed and I were discussing this >very thing, and his opinion is that it's just a matter of time before the >new wing will be proven and becomes the defacto standard KR wing, so why >worry about whether people keep building the RAF48 rather than getting the >most out of their planes for the same amount of work? I don't know, but >this is where I give up. Somebody else is gonna have to carry on this >fight. > >You could argue that TET has a vested interest, since we sell the templates. >But those coordinates are public domain (at >http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/as504x.html ), and anybody that wants to >use the new airfoil is welcome to them. All I'm doing is saving you the >time it takes to turn the coordinates into drawings and plot them out. I >have a feeling that the new airfoil would have been warmly received had >Jeannette been JUST ABOUT to make new wing skin molds, rather than having >JUST MADE them using the RAF48. > >I'm not mad at YOU Gary, just frustrated with the community as a whole. The >new wing didn't come down from the mountaintop, so it'll never gain >acceptance with some. > >Another thing that was overheard at the Gathering was that planes as wildly >modified as mine shouldn't be allowed to come to the Gatherings at all. You >know, if you banned all but the stockers from the Gathering, we'd have had >two this year, and one of them came in on a truck for sale. And even then, >Jim's plane has Diehl gear, which I don't believe is in the plans at all, so >actually you'd have had one plane. Period. > >Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who consider the >original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, and those >who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things about the KR >is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say that about an >RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken place over >the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:19:52 -0300 To: "Richard Parker" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> Is The New Wing Slower? Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001002101442.00ac45d0@mail.auracom.com> Rich; You're right the little plane is tough. I can attest to that. After ;this weekend when I cut off the broken parts of my airframe. even after an 8 "g" crash the little fuse is still intact. Cracked and broken but still provided safe delivery of your truly. PS the problem was fuel contamination. Even though we drained fuel before every movement, we ran into trouble when the sludge or dirt moved to the fuel filter. Let me tell you it doesn't take very much to ruin you day. Anyway I'll be back in the air if I have to buy a KR-2. I would like a project nearing completion that lacks and engine and instruments though, because I think the Saturn engine is the ticket. Less weight than an O-200 with more power. Regards Jim At 10:49 AM 9/30/00 +0000, Richard Parker wrote: >I consider the Lancairs, Pulsars, etc an updated, modified, all composite >version of the KR. I wouldnt be adverse to seeing some more of them at the >gatherings. > >Metal airplanes (ie RV) are for people who dont understand how durable >wood and composite airplanes can be and are just trying to assemble a >production airplane cheaper. I have no time for them. > >Rich Parker > > >Clearly, the KR community is divided into two camps. Those who >consider the >original KR to be perfect and poo-poo any effort to improve it, >and those >who improve as they see fit. One of the most attractive things >about the KR >is how easy it is to make it whatever you want. You can't say >that about an >RV, or a Lancair. Without the evolution that's gradually taken >place over >the last 25 years, I think the KR would have died long ago... > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************