From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 5 Feb 2001 01:20:33 -0000 Issue 166 Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001 5:21 PM krnet Digest 5 Feb 2001 01:20:33 -0000 Issue 166 Topics (messages 3944 through 3963): Re: KR2's Over Texas Flyin Info 3944 by: Laheze.aol.com 3945 by: RFG842.aol.com Oil Cooler Cabin Heater 3946 by: GARYKR2.cs.com cowl 3947 by: Timothy Brown Motor mount loading 3948 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout 3951 by: larry flesner 3962 by: w.g. kirkland Airworthiness Certificate 3949 by: Albert Pecoraro Scales for Weight and Balance 3950 by: Albert Pecoraro How Many amps for VW 3952 by: Christine Coolidge 3953 by: KRkip.aol.com 3955 by: KMcKen.aol.com 3963 by: GARYKR2.cs.com Question About Elevator 3954 by: Laheze.aol.com 3957 by: FRED SMITH 3958 by: larry flesner 3960 by: Laheze.aol.com test message 3956 by: larry flesner O-200 3959 by: Carter Pond weighing 3961 by: w.g. kirkland Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:49:50 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Fwd: KR2's Over Texas Flyin Info Message-ID: --part1_c0.f50aaf1.27aca19e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_c0.f50aaf1.27aca19e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Laheze@aol.com Full-name: Laheze Message-ID: <54.f71e617.27aa297c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:52:44 EST Subject: KR2's Over Texas Flyin Info To: krnet@mailinglists.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 129 Hello All, The Flyin is On! Details are as follows: It will be held April 27th thru 29th at Thompson Field (Canton Texas N 32* 36.967' W 095* 52.117' ) This is a hard surface clear approach both ends, with a row of trees down the North side of the runway. This airport is a private field which is about 50 miles east of Dallas two miles north of I-20. If you are driving take hwy 859 north from I-20 towards Edgewood 2 miles. Turn right or east on 3119, there is a big 4 bladed world war 2 airplane propeller sign painted white at 3119.. It is worth the trip just to see the sign, I have never seen one like it. There are plenty of big hangars for airplane storage. This is going to be a campout, so bring your tent, trailer, motorhome, plane or whatever you have. I was told that this is the weekend for the claimed to be US's largest trades day, The Canton Texas Trades Days. If that is the case, I was also told there would not be any motel space that all are booked months in advance. We have offers on site for sleeping in big insulated hangars where people live so bring air mattresses, cots, sleeping bags. There are shower facilities available. We will serve all meals on site. So if you get sick, too bad you have to eat our stuff anyway. We have some KR guys who have offered to cook, we will hope their cooking is as good as they build airplanes. Our plan is arrival will start Friday afternoon we will have dinner Friday night, pancake breakfast, grilled burgers for lunch and probably smoked beef and chicken for Saturday night. We may have a Country band Saturday night, I am not a drinker but the guy who owns the place has a vending machine full plus he probably will have a tub full of iced down stuff. Drinkers say don't trus a guy who doesn't drink but trust me, we are going to have fun. It was suggested by Bob from Witchata Kansas that we have a swap meet, so bring all of your don't wants and sell or trade for your wants. We are going to talk KRs so bring your show and tell stuff and if you have any questions bring those also. Kerry Miller and Curtis Wright (thats right, Curtis Wright, he's the Wright I know)said they may have a little composite workshop and show how to vacumn bag. If you are interested in that email me so I can get them in gear. I have been contacted by at least 20 people who are building Krs that say they are coming, some are flying finished planes. If you live in Texas or close by this may be your chance to see a real finished and flying KR if you have never seen one. This Flyin is for anyone from anywhere, if you have the time and desire we would like to have you. If you have any questions or suggestions, other than where I can go! email me. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com --part1_c0.f50aaf1.27aca19e_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:16:40 EST To: Laheze@aol.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: RFG842@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Fwd: KR2's Over Texas Flyin Info Message-ID: <1e.10d688c5.27acd218@aol.com> Larry Would love to see a demonstration of vacuum bagging. Harbor Freight (http:/www.harborfreight.com) sells an air vacuum pump, item No. 03952 which is used with an air compressor, Requirements; air consumption 4.2 CFM; working pressure 75/80 PSI; air inlet 1/2" to provide a vacuum. I bought mine on sale for $8.95. Have yet to try it. Will have to wait for warm weather. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:07:53 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Oil Cooler Cabin Heater Message-ID: To all who wanted photos of how I pull my cockpit heat from the oil cooler, I picked up the pictures and have them loaded in my computer. Drop me a note and I will send them to you. If someone has room on their web site and would like to add more photos on "How To Do That," I have for my vacuum pump drive, starter, alternator, prop extension, remote oil cooler, ect. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:51:14 -0800 (PST) To: Group KR NET From: Timothy Brown Subject: cowl Message-ID: <20010203165114.95219.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> I am considering purchasing the cowl that Gaylon has. He says it is a standard KR2 cowl and came from RR. I am building a 2S and will have a 2100D VW "under the hood." Anyone know for sure if the 2 cowl will fit the 2S? If no one knows for sure I will just give Jeanette a call and ask her. Thanks all. Tim __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:52:57 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Motor mount loading Message-ID: <20010203.115257.-276013.0.klw1953@juno.com> Just wondering if anyone understands how the pulling forces on the upper and lower attach points for the motor mount behind the fire wall are distributed. The top where the shelves are is much better constructed than the bottom. Is this because the hanging weight of the motor is supported by the top mount? What about in flight? Does anyone know how many pounds of pull is exerted under power to the attach points behind the fire wall? Thanks, just curious.-----Kenny (N6399U) Kutztown Pa. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:13:16 -0600 To: Kenneth L Wiltrout ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> Motor mount loading Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010203161316.008001d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 11:52 AM 2/3/01 -0500, Kenneth L Wiltrout wrote: >Just wondering if anyone understands how the pulling forces on the upper >and lower attach points for the motor mount behind the fire wall are >distributed. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ken, I have an 0-200 on a HAPI mount like Marty Roberts. My thrust line is directly in line with the upper firewall mount and that is centered in the upper "box". I'll take a W.A.G. and say that with the engines we are using we are probably getting in the 150 to 250 pounds of thrust range. At rest, the bottom mount would be in compression. I suppose that in a 3 or 4 G pull-up or a really hard landing you may get a 400 to 800 pound load on the upper mount. I'm not really sure what you're looking for here and I'm not an engineer so I may be way off base. Perhaps one of the engineer types can enlighten us. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:06:42 -0500 To: "krnet" From: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: Re: KR> Motor mount loading Message-ID: <00c701c08edd$9cde39e0$ea905bd1@kirkland> The thrust load is the least of the loads. With a five G loading that 200 lb engine weighs 1000 lbs. Put in a safety factor of 1.5 and it weighs 1500 lbs. The engine forces will tend to rotate around the lower mount. If the engine CG is about 18" forward of the firewall the rotating force will about equal the weight of the engine or 1500 lbs X 1.5' =2250 ft lbs. If the upper mounts are 18" above the lower ones the forward pull will be 1500 lbs plus the thrust load of say 200 lbs =1700 lbs for the two mounts or 850 lbs each in tension. The four mounts also have to carry the shear load of 1500 lbs. This is a very rough estimate. one of those engineering types. For a detailed analyses I need the exact dimensions of your mount, the engine weight, horse powerr, CG, speed of aircraft, rpm, drag and $2500 dollars and it will still be uncertified as I'm not a PE. W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "Kenneth L Wiltrout" ; Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: KR> Motor mount loading > At 11:52 AM 2/3/01 -0500, Kenneth L Wiltrout wrote: > >Just wondering if anyone understands how the pulling forces on the upper > >and lower attach points for the motor mount behind the fire wall are > >distributed. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Ken, > > I have an 0-200 on a HAPI mount like Marty Roberts. My thrust line > is directly in line with the upper firewall mount and that is > centered in the upper "box". I'll take a W.A.G. and say that > with the engines we are using we are probably getting in the > 150 to 250 pounds of thrust range. At rest, the bottom mount would > be in compression. I suppose that in a 3 or 4 G pull-up or a really > hard landing you may get a 400 to 800 pound load on the upper mount. > I'm not really sure what you're looking for here and I'm not an > engineer so I may be way off base. Perhaps one of the engineer types > can enlighten us. > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:55:49 -0500 To: "kr2s group" From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Airworthiness Certificate Message-ID: <000c01c08e02$2aa35580$88d1b23f@steelcase.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08DD8.4018E6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, This may=20 The program at our monthly EAA meeting (#211 Grand Haven, MI) last night = was on Preventive Maintenance, presented by Rick Pharmalee of the = Detroit/Grand Rapids FSDO's. During the Question & Answer period I = asked: Regarding the issuance of "Airworthiness Certificates" to = experimental/homebuilt airplanes, under what grounds would the FAA not = issue the certificate? For example, if someone modified a wing design, = or used an engine that was different than what was recommended in the = plans, or whatever ... what is the FAA looking for? The answer (generalized): If you are the original builder, the FAA is = looking for 3 things (in addition to having the correct forms completed = and receipts of your purchases): 1) Documentation 2) Documentation 3) Documentation Oh, did I mention pictures? ;-) And a construction log book would also = be helpful.=20 Major modifications won't prevent you from receiving an Airworthiness = Certificate, but shoddy workmanship and/or lack of documentation will = definitely work against you. The applicants that have a more difficult = time receiving the Airworthiness Certificate are those that have bought = an uncompleted project with little or no documentation of the parts that = are not readily available for inspection (such as a closed spar or a = completed horizontal stabilizer).=20 If you don't do so already, it would be a good thing to take as many = pictures as possible at various stages of your project. Take pictures at = different angles to show all possible perspectives if you believe it = will be helpful. I've heard of several good ideas for keeping a log. = Some of these are: 1) Website: believe it or not, when printed on hardcopy, the pages of a = website (with text and pictures) is a pretty good format for = documentation. 2) Excel spreadsheet/Photo Album: This is the method I use. I have = columns for Date, Time Started/Time Ended, Hours Worked, Description of = Work, Comments. With this method it would be wise to reference the = specific pages of the plans, worksheets, photographs, drawings, etc.=20 3) Diary/Journal: The general format is similar to keeping a diary or = journal (like a newspaper). Pretend that you are a reporter covering a = story on the things you did on a certain day. Remember to ask "Who? = What? Where? When? Why? How?" ! ;-) And take a few photos that support = the story - it might make the headlines one day! ;-) That's about all there is to it.=20 Happy building! Albert ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08DD8.4018E6C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:27:16 -0500 To: "kr2s group" From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Scales for Weight and Balance Message-ID: <001e01c08e06$8ee69d00$88d1b23f@steelcase.com> ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C08DDC.A4D94D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, *This is not meant to start a debate between which method is better - = that is your decision, not mine. I am only sharing information I learned = from experienced builders/pilots and technical counselors.=20 During our general discussion at our monthly EAA meeting (#211 Grand = Haven, MI), one of the topics was the use of scales for weighing your = airplane. Spring scales versus electronic scales. If you have access to the electronic scales (if there is an FBO or = someone that has a set and will let you use them), this would be the = preferred method. The electronic scales are much more accurate. With a = good set of electronic scales, it is very likely that you will get the = same reading every time.=20 The spring scales can give inaccurate readings due to the side loads = imposed by the gear and/or by the amount of pressure in the tires. There = is also the problem/issue of calibrating the scales every time you take = a reading. With a set of spring scales, it is very likely that you will = not get the same reading every time. Our chapter president shared his story last night about reweighing his = RV-4. The original readings were conducted on spring scales. The recent = readings were conducted on electronic scales at a local airport. The new = readings indicated an increase of 65 lbs to the empty weight ... and = nothing on the airplane was modified.=20 Why is this so important? ... Hypothetical scenario: Imagine you are = doing a weight and balance on your KR and your empty weight is 500 lbs = according to spring scales, when in reality it is much closer to 525 = lbs. You decide to load the plane up with fuel, a passenger and cargo, = do the weight and balance according to the 500 lbs figure, and your CG = calculates close to the aft limit. The "hidden" 25 lbs could adversely = affect the performance and safety of the aircraft, depending on how the = weight was distributed.=20 So, if you care to know which method I am going to use when it's time to = weigh my airplane ... electronic scales.=20 Just wanted to share that with you. Take care. Albert ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C08DDC.A4D94D80-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:45:52 -0800 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Christine Coolidge Subject: How Many amps for VW Message-ID: <20010203.214558.-914681.0.USAUS@juno.com> 90% done with the 2s and 90% to go. Does anyone know the minimum cold cranking amps needed to start a 2100cc type I VW? I want to use one of these very small deep cycle batteries used for out board motors. I just found one with 350 cold cranking amps. It weighs 16lbs and is 12x6x8. Have any of you used this type of battery or do you have any ideas? Scott Wanagetthedamnthingintheair ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:57:28 EST To: usaus@juno.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: KRkip@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> How Many amps for VW Message-ID: I use a Sears Diehard motorcycle battery for my 2100 and it spins it over with no trouble at all kip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 06:31:38 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KMcKen@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> How Many amps for VW Message-ID: <55.10bc2715.27ae979a@aol.com> --part1_55.10bc2715.27ae979a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would recomen buying a battery from Steve Benette at GPASC. --part1_55.10bc2715.27ae979a_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:19:41 EST To: usaus@juno.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Re: KR> How Many amps for VW Message-ID: <64.af1c37e.27af59ad@cs.com> In a message dated 2/3/01 10:39:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, usaus@juno.com writes: << Does anyone know the minimum cold cranking amps needed to start a 2100cc type I VW? I want to use one of these very small deep cycle batteries used for out board motors. I just found one with 350 cold cranking amps. It weighs 16lbs and is 12x6x8. >> I have a 2180 on my "2" and use a motorcycle battery. Never had any problems. I have a full electrical system with 70 amp alternator. If you need, I will get the number for you. The deep cycle boat batteries should stay on a boat. they are the worst of both worlds. There is no battery that does both. When you do the tests on the different types of batteries, you find that combo starting / deep cycle batteries have the shortest life before needing replaced. The way the plates are made inside determines if you get low amps for a long time (trolling motor) or high amps for a short time (starting ). You can't get both. The duel concept battery is a marketing ploy. The battery in a car or airplane is used for starting. The power for all the systems comes from the alternator. The job of the battery, after starting the engine, is to absorb voltage and amperage spikes. Not powering the airplane. If you feel you have to use a boat battery, go ahead. That's why it's called experimental. What I did tell you is from 27yrs of working on airplanes. And I do think outside the box. The people that know me will verify that. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com PS I also own a boat. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 01:23:10 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Question About Elevator Message-ID: This Question is for KR2 FLYERS who do not have a balanced elevator. I have noticed on this KR2 that it takes some effort to lift the elevator with the stick while it is sitting in the hangar, I am not sure if it is balanced. Does the tail lift itself when the airspeed comes up and lighten the load on the stick sorta to neutral? If it is balanced would it only be stick forward elevator down while sitting? I don't think so but would like some help on this please. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:02:17 -0600 To: Laheze@aol.com From: FRED SMITH CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Question About Elevator Message-ID: <3A7D60E9.C060A9FB@bushnell.net> Laheze@aol.com wrote: > This Question is for KR2 FLYERS who do not have a balanced elevator. I have > noticed on this KR2 that it takes some effort to lift the elevator with the > stick while it is sitting in the hangar, I am not sure if it is balanced. > Does the tail lift itself when the airspeed comes up and lighten the load on > the stick sorta to neutral? If it is balanced would it only be stick forward > elevator down while sitting? I don't think so but would like some help on > this please. > > Larry Howell laheze@aol.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org I have a dragonfly that does not have elevators balanced. They hang down but come up under air speed and then feel balanced. You definitely need to check for balance weights. I no longer fly this plane as it went into flutter on final. I will fly it again when balanced. I have lost engine twice and it is no worry compared with thinking your wing in coming off. Don't fly until balanced! I have 0235 installed and running in my kr2s and all instruments except radio and trans hooked up. Applied for N number last week. Hope to be flying it in 1-2 months at most.Still lots of sanding and filling to go. keep flying fred smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:20:47 -0600 To: Laheze@aol.com,krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> Question About Elevator Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010204082047.0089a100@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 01:23 AM 2/4/01 EST, Laheze@aol.com wrote: >This Question is for KR2 FLYERS who do not have a balanced elevator. I have >noticed on this KR2 that it takes some effort to lift the elevator with the >stick while it is sitting in the hangar, I am not sure if it is balanced. >Does the tail lift itself when the airspeed comes up and lighten the load on >the stick sorta to neutral? If it is balanced would it only be stick forward >elevator down while sitting? I don't think so but would like some help on >this please. >>Larry Howell laheze@aol.com >========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Larry, My KR is not flying yet but I'm going to answer this anyway. One reason is I want to see if I get an e-mail back from the net. I think it's having problems. I'm not getting messages back that I sent myself!! On the elevator, it sounds like your's is not balanced. Balance is for flutter control in the air only but a balanced elevator on the ground will tend to stay in the last position it was placed. At least mine does. As far as the elevator comming up with air loads, I can only say that a friend of mine has an early C-170 without balanced elevators and on the ground it must take a 15 pound pull to raise them to neutral. Once there are air loads on them on takeoff, you no longer notice it. I suspect the problem would be MANY times less on a KR. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:57:22 EST To: fsinds@bushnell.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Question About Elevator Message-ID: Fred, Thank you for your reply and I have always been a balanced aileron and elevator fan. I purchased this plane from a guy who had an engine out. I have repaired the damage and will be flying soon. This plane has flown for about 100 hours. A young friend had gone to Arizona and flew it back here for the guy I bought it from. He said it woul cruise along at 165mph easily and had no complaints except the seatback was too straight up and down and very uncomfortable so I rebuilt all of that. The elevator feels heavy when you pull back on the stick to lift it. I did not know if it is balanced or not. I would have thought that when you pulled stick all the way back that it would stay there if it were balanced instead it goes back to elevator trailing edge down. My Cessna 210 that I used to have would go trailing edge down or you could pull yoke back and it would come all the way out with trailing edge up. It had a neutral point about centered as in level flight mode when pull or push it would go all the way full back or full forward. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:05:40 -0600 To: Christine Coolidge ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: test message Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010204080540.00896e90@pop3.norton.antivirus> This is a test. I think the krnet is having problems. I've sent "reply all" messages and don't get them back. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:57:28 -0800 To: kr From: Carter Pond Subject: O-200 Message-ID: <3A7DB428.B762A237@home.com> Does any one have a cad file of a 0-200? I am looking for a out side dim profile with center line. The auto engine I am considering has a thrust/centre line would put the oil pan hanging in the wind under the belly. What would happen if i raise the thrust line on the KR2S 4" above the longerons? Carter Designing and Dreaming ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:43:25 -0500 To: "krnet" From: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: weighing Message-ID: <009f01c08eda$5c8971a0$ea905bd1@kirkland> ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01C08EB0.72B00360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend of mine solicited help in weighing from the Ministry of = highways and with a bit of enticement one of their employees showed up = on his days off with their electronic scales they use for weighing = trucks. Really accurate and he did it for some free flying. W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01C08EB0.72B00360-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************