From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 5 Mar 2001 15:52:58 -0000 Issue 184 Date: Monday, March 05, 2001 7:53 AM krnet Digest 5 Mar 2001 15:52:58 -0000 Issue 184 Topics (messages 4391 through 4415): test, ignore 4391 by: Peter Nauta 4392 by: virgnvs.juno.com KR-2 Project for sale 4393 by: manrj.att.net Re: Sling Seat, distance... 4394 by: GARYKR2.cs.com Dual control stick help needed..... 4395 by: Jerry Mahurin 4396 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 4405 by: GARYKR2.cs.com 4406 by: Linda Warner 4407 by: Ron Eason 4408 by: Peter Johnson horizontal tails 4397 by: Manager Bill 4398 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 4399 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com 4400 by: Steven Eberhart 4401 by: Dave and Tina Goodman 4402 by: Ron Eason 4403 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com 4410 by: Frank Ross 4415 by: Tracy & Carol O'Brien Stability 4404 by: George Allen Performance Prediction 4409 by: KMcKen1.aol.com Weird stuff again... 4411 by: Frank Ross DUAL CONTROLS 4412 by: pjvisc.netzero.net From Dreamer to Owner... 4413 by: CS Owner... 4414 by: CS Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:05:37 +0100 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists. Org" From: "Peter Nauta" Subject: test, ignore Message-ID: Test, ignore. Can't believe no msgs are coming through ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 16:40:59 -0500 To: p.nauta@wanadoo.nl From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> test, ignore Message-ID: <20010303.164605.-207285.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Virg On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:05:37 +0100 "Peter Nauta" writes: > Test, ignore. Can't believe no msgs are coming through > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:08:12 +0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: manrj@att.net Subject: KR-2 Project for sale Message-Id: <20010304000812.YZZ12661.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Wasn't able to ge to this yesterday (Friday) so please forgive my writing at this time. Earlier I mentioned loss of medical and desire to dispose of my regular -2 project. I hope I won't have to bother anyone again but wanted to make one more posting. Project is taildragger, now on wheels with all premolds still in shipping boxes; spars commplete; foam, fabric and spruce for completion. Am asking $2290 obo. Please contact me off net for a complete list. Thanks. Bob Maniss Abilene, Texas manrj@att.net Tel. 915-672-2117 FAX 915-676-2498 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:51:58 EST To: gryphonflier@earthlink.net, dc9898@yahoo.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Re: KR> Re: Sling Seat, distance... Message-ID: <47.83094f2.27d2f9be@cs.com> In a message dated 3/3/01 8:40:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, gryphonflier@earthlink.net writes: << The only way I can minimize this gap is to put in a lot of seat cushions. This is what I was trying to avoid. >> Put the seat cushions in. After about 2hrs in the air, you will wish you had then. As far as being able to see over the nose, unless it has tri gear on it, I don't think any one has been able to see forward while on the ground. It's like flying a Stearman or Cessna 195. You have to look out the side at about a 30 deg angle. Fly a J3 some time and see how much you see forward. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 02:34:18 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Jerry Mahurin" Cc: dheath@scana.com Subject: Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: Netters, I have just revived my KR2 project. It has a single center mounted control stick. I want duals. Who has good plans or completed assemblies....? In '92 David Carroll's Dumbo had a good set and he offered completed assemblies for sale. But the telephone number that I have for him is no good. Is he still around and is Dumbo still flying...??? By the way, I cannot afford the RR price; I'll build my own first...!!! Help, Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:46:08 -0500 To: "KRNET" , From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: Think about seating. With a single stick, if you're alone (probably the most common condition) then you can sit in the middle, and use the outside rudder pedals for a comfortable single place. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Mahurin [mailto:jerrymahurin@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:34 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Cc: dheath@scana.com Subject: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Netters, I have just revived my KR2 project. It has a single center mounted control stick. I want duals. Who has good plans or completed assemblies....? In '92 David Carroll's Dumbo had a good set and he offered completed assemblies for sale. But the telephone number that I have for him is no good. Is he still around and is Dumbo still flying...??? By the way, I cannot afford the RR price; I'll build my own first...!!! Help, Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:02:37 EST To: ron.martha@mindspring.com, krnet@mailinglists.org, myrddin@usa.net From: GARYKR2@cs.com Subject: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: <29.114ce019.27d4319d@cs.com> In a message dated 3/3/01 11:45:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, ron.martha@mindspring.com writes: << With a single stick, if you're alone (probably the most common condition) then you can sit in the middle, and use the outside rudder pedals for a comfortable single place. >> Yea, and you can also "Floss Your Butt Crack" while your at it. Stop and think where the elevator control cable is. I have flown both single and duel stick "2s" and the duel is better for long flights. Sit where you are supposed to be, and use the rudder peddles you are supposed to use. It's too easy to get your feet all screwed up if something were to go wrong. If it can, it will. On long cross countries the seat open next to me is used for maps,O2 bottle, water bottle, and food. I have no problem staying up 3hrs plus. Except my butt gets tired. The side stick is great when you want to play "Fighter Pilot." And I have noticed that with the legs out straight on the peddles, it is harder to get full aileron deflection due to my leg restricting full movement to the left. I'm 5' 9," weigh 180 and do not have fat legs. Remember, Ken was a smerff. And made the plane to fit him. My opinion, Install duel sticks with the right stick removable. And the KR news letter had the drawings in it to make the control assembly you are talking about. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:28:37 -0500 (EST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: jaslkw@webtv.net (Linda Warner) Subject: Fwd: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: <12859-3AA2EBC5-5316@storefull-226.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-29682-2764 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Noticed the request for info on dual sticks. I looked thru my old newsletters and found several articles on them. One in issue #14 I don't care for as it appears that it would cause the aileron cables to swing in an arc with cable tension changes during flight. Another is in issue #46 and appears to be a good one. I had another issue marked there (#186) but can't seem to locate it right now. If anyone wants a copy of those, I'd be happy to provide them. My choice is for a dual stick set up. But it is a personal choice for each builder. Is anyone offering a premade unit? I've seen Rands and it looks good, but to many would seem pricey. I'm making my own since I'm widening the cabin slightly (on the bottom) & want a little more distance between the sticks to be centered between each persons legs a little better. John Sickafoose, Naples Fl --WebTV-Mail-29682-2764 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.40) by storefull-225.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id B28001F9; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:04:07 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: jaslkw@webtv.net Received: from mailinglists.org (server1.mailinglists.org [63.160.175.18]) by smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with SMTP id 14AD318B for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24531 invoked by alias); 5 Mar 2001 00:03:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact krnet-help@mailinglists.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list krnet@mailinglists.org Received: (qmail 24521 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 00:03:54 -0000 From: GARYKR2@cs.com Message-ID: <29.114ce019.27d4319d@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:02:37 EST To: ron.martha@mindspring.com, krnet@mailinglists.org, myrddin@usa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 Subject: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... In a message dated 3/3/01 11:45:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, ron.martha@mindspring.com writes: << With a single stick, if you're alone (probably the most common condition) then you can sit in the middle, and use the outside rudder pedals for a comfortable single place. >> Yea, and you can also "Floss Your Butt Crack" while your at it. Stop and think where the elevator control cable is. I have flown both single and duel stick "2s" and the duel is better for long flights. Sit where you are supposed to be, and use the rudder peddles you are supposed to use. It's too easy to get your feet all screwed up if something were to go wrong. If it can, it will. On long cross countries the seat open next to me is used for maps,O2 bottle, water bottle, and food. I have no problem staying up 3hrs plus. Except my butt gets tired. The side stick is great when you want to play "Fighter Pilot." And I have noticed that with the legs out straight on the peddles, it is harder to get full aileron deflection due to my leg restricting full movement to the left. I'm 5' 9," weigh 180 and do not have fat legs. Remember, Ken was a smerff. And made the plane to fit him. My opinion, Install duel sticks with the right stick removable. And the KR news letter had the drawings in it to make the control assembly you are talking about. Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. garykr2@cs.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --WebTV-Mail-29682-2764-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:05:17 -0600 To: "Linda Warner" , From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: <001f01c0a518$bc7423e0$ab7239ce@dana-coe> I can show you what I did it maybe it a little much for some without a machining resource but it could be welded up also. Go to http://www.jrl-engineering.com/hangar.html for photos, you will need to make your own dimensions. Krron -----Original Message----- From: Linda Warner To: krnet@mailinglists.org Date: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:12:38 -0800 To: , From: "Peter Johnson" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Dual control stick help needed..... Message-ID: <00a701c0a52e$3d0091a0$8009eccf@peter> Hi Jerry, here's an idea for you. I am going to go to 'dual controls' also, but I'm going to use the original, single, center stick in place. On top of the stick will be a horizontal piece forming an 'L'. This horizontal piece is only about 6" long and will simply rotate from one side to the other by pressing a pip pin. Not true duel, but providing of duel. On the Robinson R-22 helicopter they have a true 'T' control stick. The top horizontal pivots up and down to bring the actual control down to the PIC side. Hope this help Jerry. mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca > Netters, > > I have just revived my KR2 project. It has a single center mounted control > stick. I want duals. > > Who has good plans or completed assemblies....? In '92 David Carroll's > Dumbo had a good set and he offered completed assemblies for sale. But the > telephone number that I have for him is no good. Is he still around and is > Dumbo still flying...??? > > By the way, I cannot afford the RR price; I'll build my own first...!!! > > Help, > > Jerry Mahurin > Lugoff, SC > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:10:57 -0700 To: Krnet From: Manager Bill Subject: horizontal tails Message-ID: <3AA1CE5F.ED421774@nm.net> To Rex Ellington, Dana Overall, and all you other tail tinkerers on KRnet: This is not a flame, it is just a statement repeating much of what I said at the KR forum during Sun N Fun last April. Go read “Airplane Performance, Stability and Control,” by Perkins and Hage. The longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is required to trim the airplane in pitch. Look at the Fokker T-2 hanging in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Its horizontal tail is minuscule compared to its wing area, yet it made the first nonstop coast-to-coast flight in history. Look at canards like the Rutan designs; if you make the horizontal tail (the aft surface) big enough, you can fly with the c.g. several chord lengths aft of the forward wing’s trailing edge. Or, if you want the biggest surface to be the wing, if you move the c.g. far enough forward, you can have negative trail length (horizontal tail in front of the wing)! Same configuration, different ways of looking at it, but the important point is not the relative areas, but the center of gravity location. Having said all that, I will stick my neck out a little further. Long tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, because the ”damping effect” of long tail arms is greater than that of short arms. That is, up-and-down oscillations in pitch will die out much faster with a long tail than with a short one, even though the product of tail arm x tail area is the same. The result is an airplane that feels more steady and stable. Like the Pontiac commercials say, “wider (longer) is better.” Incidentally, I call myself “manager Bill” rather than “engineer Bill” because I am attempting to manage a small charitable organization called the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy. Read about us on the Web at www.kiddiehawk.org; we are dedicated to aviation education for little kids, and that is why the e-mail address is kids2fly. To Bernie Wunder: My slide rule is a 1949 K&E log log duplex vector model, and yep, I can still use it! Bill Marcy Hired Gun for Jeannette Rand ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:26:53 -0500 To: "KRNET" , "Manager Bill" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: Nice answer, thanks for the effort. I'm not sure it'll sink in, but nice effort. BTW, my Cassutt was very stable and control effective. It was a small tail groupp on a long arm. The emphasis on weight and balance we all had to learn about in ground school oughta be a clue to most persons that there's a reason for the excercise besides execising you slide rule / calculator. Mine's a K&E too! Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Manager Bill [mailto:kids2fly@nm.net] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:11 AM To: Krnet Subject: KR> horizontal tails To Rex Ellington, Dana Overall, and all you other tail tinkerers on KRnet: This is not a flame, it is just a statement repeating much of what I said at the KR forum during Sun N Fun last April. Go read “Airplane Performance, Stability and Control,” by Perkins and Hage. The longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is required to trim the airplane in pitch. Look at the Fokker T-2 hanging in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Its horizontal tail is minuscule compared to its wing area, yet it made the first nonstop coast-to-coast flight in history. Look at canards like the Rutan designs; if you make the horizontal tail (the aft surface) big enough, you can fly with the c.g. several chord lengths aft of the forward wing’s trailing edge. Or, if you want the biggest surface to be the wing, if you move the c.g. far enough forward, you can have negative trail length (horizontal tail in front of the wing)! Same configuration, different ways of looking at it, but the important point is not the relative areas, but the center of gravity location. Having said all that, I will stick my neck out a little further. Long tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, because the ”damping effect” of long tail arms is greater than that of short arms. That is, up-and-down oscillations in pitch will die out much faster with a long tail than with a short one, even though the product of tail arm x tail area is the same. The result is an airplane that feels more steady and stable. Like the Pontiac commercials say, “wider (longer) is better.” Incidentally, I call myself “manager Bill” rather than “engineer Bill” because I am attempting to manage a small charitable organization called the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy. Read about us on the Web at www.kiddiehawk.org; we are dedicated to aviation education for little kids, and that is why the e-mail address is kids2fly. To Bernie Wunder: My slide rule is a 1949 K&E log log duplex vector model, and yep, I can still use it! Bill Marcy Hired Gun for Jeannette Rand --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:43:17 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: --part1_ca.119d1be5.27d3ae85_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/04/2001 12:05:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, kids2fly@nm.net writes: > The > longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: > the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of > neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by > increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the > center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is > You are simplifying a very complex issue is aircraft stability. The longitudinal stability you mention is based on the premise that CG never moves. That simply is not so in the KR. I am quoting, "Longitudinal stability involves motion of the airplane about it's lateral axis and is controlled by the elevator. Longitudinal dynamic instability in an airplane can be identified by pitch oscillations becoming progressively steeper. Stability is determined by the location of the center of gravity in relation to the center of pressure (lift). Center of gravity changes will tend to make the airplane unstable about its "lateral" axis. As you can see, longitudinal and lateral are not interchangeable. What you are referring to is lateral not longitudinal. Your explanation, while long, is based on an argument of deletion not inclusion. Ask anyone with KR experience what happens when you move in the cockpit. Things change big time. This is a result of the very small CG envelope. By designing the proper horizontal stab to accommodate this change, you increase the total stability of the aircraft. Check the charts, the KR's horizontal stab is undersized. Your comment about the tail only being required for trim in pitch.................well I better not say anything. The main function of the horizontal stab is for stability not trim. It is directly responsible for addressing positive static stability, neutral longitudinal static stability and longitudinal dynamic instability and stability. It must generate a sufficient amount of down force at both the low end of the flight and the top end (Vne) of the flight envelope to create dynamic stability. Without this, oscillations will become steeper as a result of insufficient down force and inducing the airplane to violate Vne and increase your chances of structural damage. You have to have dynamic stability before you can have positive static, with tends to make the airplane return to it's original position before it's separation form equal pressure. The horizontal stab must, and I repeat must, be designed to generate a sufficient amount of down force for stability in the total flight envelope. This is the area that a substantial amount of research was directed towards on my horizontal stab. Trust me, I didn't simply make it bigger. A lot of respected people, and documented research, were behind my horizontal stab rebuild. It takes not longer to do it right. A relatively flat stab promotes airflow separation which in turn reduces the effectiveness of that surface, i.e., the KR stab. Although a flat stab will work, it is not optimal. Mine is an airfoil and will remain effective within the flight envelope. I really do want uninterrupted airflow to be flowing aft to the elevator. The KR fits a certain segment of builders but just to blatantly endorse inadequacies is not in my nature. The single number just doesn't work. Not a flame, just explanation from a non "hired gun". Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ --part1_ca.119d1be5.27d3ae85_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:03:11 -0600 (CST) To: Manager Bill From: Steven Eberhart cc: Krnet Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: I for one am glad to see a trained engineer, on the Rand Robinson payroll, contributing to this list. It is something that we all have been hoping for. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak :-) There has been much discussion, on this mail list, about the stability of the KR-2 and KR-2S designs. I am not exactly sure what Bill/Rand Robinson is implying with this post. There is discussion of long tail mament arms with small stabilizers and short tail moment arms with large stabilizers but I don't see much discussion of short tail moment arms and small stabilizers, like what you will have when you build to the plans, other than to make sure the CG is forward. Given that a KR-2 or KR-2S is built to the plans, what are you recommending as the optimum CG range for reasonable positive stability? Do you consider the plans specified GC range the optimum? Steve Eberhart On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Manager Bill wrote: > To Rex Ellington, Dana Overall, and all you other tail tinkerers on > KRnet: > > This is not a flame, it is just a statement repeating much of what I > said at the KR forum during Sun N Fun last April. Go read =93Airplane > Performance, Stability and Control,=94 by Perkins and Hage. The > longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: > the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of > neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by > increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the > center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is > required to trim the airplane in pitch. Look at the Fokker T-2 hanging > in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Its horizontal tail is > minuscule compared to its wing area, yet it made the first nonstop > coast-to-coast flight in history. Look at canards like the Rutan > designs; if you make the horizontal tail (the aft surface) big enough, > you can fly with the c.g. several chord lengths aft of the forward > wing=92s trailing edge. Or, if you want the biggest surface to be the > wing, if you move the c.g. far enough forward, you can have negative > trail length (horizontal tail in front of the wing)! Same configuration, > different ways of looking at it, but the important point is not the > relative areas, but the center of gravity location. > > Having said all that, I will stick my neck out a little further. Long > tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, because > the =94damping effect=94 of long tail arms is greater than that of short > arms. That is, up-and-down oscillations in pitch will die out much > faster with a long tail than with a short one, even though the product > of tail arm x tail area is the same. The result is an airplane that > feels more steady and stable. Like the Pontiac commercials say, =93wider > (longer) is better.=94 > > Incidentally, I call myself =93manager Bill=94 rather than =93engineer Bi= ll=94 > because I am attempting to manage a small charitable organization called > the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy. Read about us on the Web at > www.kiddiehawk.org; we are dedicated to aviation education for little > kids, and that is why the e-mail address is kids2fly. > > To Bernie Wunder: My slide rule is a 1949 K&E log log duplex vector > model, and yep, I can still use it! > > Bill Marcy > Hired Gun for Jeannette Rand > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:42:00 -0800 To: "KR-POST" From: "Dave and Tina Goodman" Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: <002901c0a4d4$81655e20$2545a6d1@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0A48F.5C731B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Long tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, = because the "damping effect"=20 This is the age-old issue with the KR design. One of the two methods = listed above needs to be done to the aircraft to improve a known defect = in its design. This plane is NOT perfect. Having said that, the KR-Net is the perfect = place to discuss what to do about it! Does a person go with a longer = tail and leave the stab the same size or just increase the area of the = tail? This is a valuable discussion. My personal choice was to build the KR-2S (giving a longer tail) AND = increase the size of my H-Stab without increasing the size of the = elevator. I feel this combination will give me greater control and more = stability, with the minimum in redesign time and effort. I have = consulted with an A&P and aero engineer extensively on this subject, = even had him over to the house to look at the plane. He is in hearty = agreement. Having now said THAT, it is fine for other engineers, AND = EVERY BUILDER OUT THERE to decide to do it differently. This is why it = is called experimental aviation. Good building, respectfully, Dave "Zipper" Goodman zipperts@whidbey.net ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0A48F.5C731B60-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:07:24 -0600 To: "Manager Bill" , "Krnet" From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: <000801c0a4de$5a5838c0$5e7239ce@dana-coe> Well said. KRRon -----Original Message----- From: Manager Bill To: Krnet Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:05 PM Subject: KR> horizontal tails >To Rex Ellington, Dana Overall, and all you other tail tinkerers on >KRnet: > >This is not a flame, it is just a statement repeating much of what I >said at the KR forum during Sun N Fun last April. Go read “Airplane >Performance, Stability and Control,” by Perkins and Hage. The >longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: >the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of >neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by >increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the >center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is >required to trim the airplane in pitch. Look at the Fokker T-2 hanging >in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Its horizontal tail is >minuscule compared to its wing area, yet it made the first nonstop >coast-to-coast flight in history. Look at canards like the Rutan >designs; if you make the horizontal tail (the aft surface) big enough, >you can fly with the c.g. several chord lengths aft of the forward >wing’s trailing edge. Or, if you want the biggest surface to be the >wing, if you move the c.g. far enough forward, you can have negative >trail length (horizontal tail in front of the wing)! Same configuration, >different ways of looking at it, but the important point is not the >relative areas, but the center of gravity location. > >Having said all that, I will stick my neck out a little further. Long >tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, because >the ”damping effect” of long tail arms is greater than that of short >arms. That is, up-and-down oscillations in pitch will die out much >faster with a long tail than with a short one, even though the product >of tail arm x tail area is the same. The result is an airplane that >feels more steady and stable. Like the Pontiac commercials say, “wider >(longer) is better.” > >Incidentally, I call myself “manager Bill” rather than “engineer Bill” >because I am attempting to manage a small charitable organization called >the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy. Read about us on the Web at >www.kiddiehawk.org; we are dedicated to aviation education for little >kids, and that is why the e-mail address is kids2fly. > >To Bernie Wunder: My slide rule is a 1949 K&E log log duplex vector >model, and yep, I can still use it! > >Bill Marcy >Hired Gun for Jeannette Rand > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:35:06 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: <83.7a6df32.27d400fa@aol.com> --part1_83.7a6df32.27d400fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/01 2:11:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, ron@jrl-engineering.com writes: > Well said. > > KRRon > > If it were correct it would be well said but too much was left out by the "hired gun". Take the longitudinal stability quote to your nearest airport and try to impress someone.........................No flame, just the facts Ma'am. The stick free neutral point of the plans built KR is 11.8", the 2S is 12.2". This aft neutral point is the CG. So the 2S has a CG calculated by stability analysis of .4" aft of the 2. Not much difference. The stick force per 1G on the 2 is 1.3 lbs with the 2S at 2.1 lbs. My tail will give me a stick force or 4.3lbs per G and move my allowable aft CG to 13.95". Those are welcome gains. The 2S CG would be 14.9 with a stick force of 4.8lbs. per G. You want to be able to feel the elevator. Remember people saying out twitchy the KR is. There are the numbers. The elevator floats with the airflow. There's much more to my horizontal stab and elevator than just size. It amazes me why someone would not want to build it right in the first place, it doesn't take anymore time. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ --part1_83.7a6df32.27d400fa_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:51:49 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-ID: <20010305035149.2614.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com> Are any of you using the "Lancair" approach to taming the "Pitch Problem"? Referring to a solution that Lancair used a few years ago by simply moving the attach point one inch up the elevator control horn. Evidently improved things quite a bit. I found the information (with drawing) somewhere in some KR stuff and KR people were discussing doing the same thing. At first this sounded exactly backwards to me. By making the control horn shorter, you make the amount of movement necessary to swing the elevator even less. In practice, however, it makes it harder to move the elevator and gives a much better feel. It would not be hard to make a control horn with both attachment points and actually decide for myself which feels best. Think that's what I'll do. Anyone else familiar with this? ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:57:42 -0800 To: Frank Ross ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: Tracy & Carol O'Brien Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20010305075742.0072b468@localaccess.com> At 07:51 PM 03/04/2001 -0800, Frank Ross wrote: >Are any of you using the "Lancair" approach to taming >the "Pitch Problem"? Referring to a solution that >Lancair used a few years ago by simply moving the >attach point one inch up the elevator control horn. >Evidently improved things quite a bit. I found the >information (with drawing) somewhere in some KR stuff >and KR people were discussing doing the same thing. >At first this sounded exactly backwards to me. By >making the control horn shorter, you make the amount >of movement necessary to swing the elevator even less. >In practice, however, it makes it harder to move the >elevator and gives a much better feel. It would not be >hard to make a control horn with both attachment >points and actually decide for myself which feels >best. Think that's what I'll do. Anyone else familiar >with this? Netters: Bud Evans used a control horn adjustment to reduce the pitch sensitivity of the VP-1 after initial flight testing. What he did was to increase the distance between the stabilator hinge point and the control cable attach points. The new setup then required more stick travel for a given amount of stabilator travel and removed the twitchiness. Regards, Tracy O'Brien PS: The only damage we had from the Ash Wednesday quake was a hole in one of my ailerons! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:31:11 -0500 To: From: "George Allen" Subject: Stability Message-ID: <007301c0a4fa$df7f1200$6aa9dcd8@george> ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A4D0.E7D4A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that post Dana, and everybody else too. I was taken for a = ride in Jerry Wells KR2 with thoughts to buy it.=20 (I didn't because it's distance from seat to pedals was to short for me. = ) But I sure as heck thought=20 it was twitchy!! He let me fly it for a while, and I started to = porpoise a lot less after 1/2 hour. Wrist control hell!!=20 FINGER control, yes. I'm a new pilot (march 2000) and looking for a = plane and thinking of building a KR2S.=20 I've decided to build a '2S and these last few days on the krnet have = been extremely helpful. I now feel like I can build a plane I won't be afraid of by using an enlarged = elevator with an airfoil shape. I wouldn't mind a heavier stick force at all. =20 Thanks guys and gals, I now will send for the plans. George Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 3:35 PM Subject: Re: KR> horizontal tails > Remember people saying out twitchy the KR is. There are the numbers. = The=20 > elevator floats with the airflow. There's much more to my horizontal = stab=20 > and elevator than just size. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A4D0.E7D4A700-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:21:40 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KMcKen1@aol.com Subject: Performance Prediction Message-ID: --part1_cb.eaa6ec9.27d46044_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good evening everyone. I was wondering if anyone would know of a program here on the net where I can go in plug in some numbers and have it estimate cruise, stall, etc. I am working on a coupl eof things and that would just about help me finish this up. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Keith Ft. Myers, FL. --part1_cb.eaa6ec9.27d46044_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:14:31 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Weird stuff again... Message-ID: <20010305041431.8481.qmail@web4702.mail.yahoo.com> A couple days ago I posted that I had a "Weird Message" after I posted to KRnet. Tonight it happened again but I copied it before it went away. When I opened my last post (about "Lancair" solution to pitch problem) the following is what I saw. When I went to "Reply All" to write a question about it, the correct message was there and when I returned to my Inbox to check the message again, it was as I had originally written it. Anyone know what is doing this? Thanks the message as I copied it: Are any of you using the "Lancair" approach to taming the "Pitch Problem"? Referring to a solution that Lancair used web16.address web1.yp web2.yp web3.yp web4.yp web5.yp web6.yp web7.yp web8.yp web9.yp web10.yp web11.yp web12.yp web13.yp s3.shop s4.shop s5.shop s6.shop s7.shop s8.shop w1.chinese w2.chinese w3.chinese w4.chinese s2.chinese s4.chinese s1.ca s2.ca w1.ca w2.ca web611.mail web612.mail web613.mail web614.mail web615.mail web616.mail web617.mail web618.mail web701.mail web702.mail web703.mail web704.mail web705.mail web801.mail web802.mail web803.mail web804.mail web805.mail web806.mail web901.mail web902.mail web903.mail web904.mail web905.mail web906.mail web1001.mail web1002.mail web1003.mail web1004.mail web1005.mail web1006.mail web1101.mail web1102.mail web1103.mail web1104.mail web1105.mail web1106.mail web1201.mail web1202.mail web1203.mail web1204.mail web1205.mail web1206.mail web1301.mail web1302.mail web1303.mail web1304.mail web1305.mail web1306.mail web1401.mail web1402.mail web1403.mail web1404.mail web1405.mail web1406.mail web1501.mail web1502.mail web1503.mail web1504.mail web1505.mail web1506.mail web1601.mail web1602.mail web1603.mail web1604.mail web1605.mail web1606.mai Copied message stops there. What follows is usual stuff from KRnet and Yahoo. There was nothing else on the message about KRnet or Yahoo. Any ideas? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:16:36 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: pjvisc@netzero.net Subject: DUAL CONTROLS Message-ID: <3AA32134.9B43FE06@netzero.net> --------------81C9F5D0D4B4EA568493326A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sport Aviation Mag , May 1987 had an article about dual controls. It was a story about Gerry O'Hara in Ireland. He set up dual controls as side-mounted. I wrote to him and he sent me pictures and it looked good. However, I'm using tubes and keeping center mount. I have the mag but I would imagine others do also. Phil Visconti Marlboro, MA --------------81C9F5D0D4B4EA568493326A-- Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:26:48 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: CS Subject: From Dreamer to Owner... Message-ID: <20010305062648.25436.qmail@web2305.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All... Just wanted all to know that I bought a "project" KR 2 today...one that I hope to fly within a year or so. So now when I come up with a WAN (wild-ass notion), instead of suggesting that y'all try it on your planes, I'll sure try it on mine. Remember this is "QDKR" temp till I build the one I want...CEKR....Chuck's Eternal KR. Many Thanks to Langfordkosh, Hinkle (A/P, somewhere in PA), overall, Junkman, AlPeco, Manager Bill, and all others who bothered to take time to answer questions I should have never asked in the first place. Thanks again. Chuck PS...now....for more questions..... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 00:07:05 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: CS Subject: Owner... Message-ID: <20010305080705.13758.qmail@web2305.mail.yahoo.com> > Hi All... > > Just wanted all to know that I bought a "project" KR > 2 > today...one that I hope to fly within a year or so. > > So now when I come up with a WAN (wild-ass notion), > instead of suggesting that y'all try it on your > planes, I'll sure try it on mine. > > Remember this is "QDKR" temp till I build the one I > want...CEKR....Chuck's Eternal KR. > > Many Thanks to Langfordkosh, Hinkle (A/P, somewhere > in > PA), overall, Junkman, AlPeco, Manager Bill, and all > others who bothered to take time to answer questions > I > should have never asked in the first place. > > Thanks again. > > Chuck > > PS...now....for more questions..... > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************