From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 23 Jun 2001 02:08:21 -0000 Issue 243 Date: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:08 PM krnet Digest 23 Jun 2001 02:08:21 -0000 Issue 243 Topics (messages 5759 through 5770): Re: 6399U 5759 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout Re: DIEHL WING SKINS 5760 by: Robert X. Cringely Bad News 5761 by: Doug Peyton Re: Wing Mod for Sport KR 5762 by: HEATH, DANIEL R Suggestions 5763 by: DClarke351.aol.com 5764 by: Richard Parker 5765 by: POND CARTER Friday Sale. 5766 by: Michael Sharp Re: Suggestions, leaking fuel upside down 5767 by: Jan Laan Firewall Materials 5768 by: Joseph H. Horton 5769 by: Mark Langford Bottom Longerons & Spar locations 5770 by: Rex T. Ellington Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:29:24 -0400 To: bmuse@ev1.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Re: KR> 6399U Message-ID: <20010620.213135.-176979.5.klw1953@juno.com> Hey thanks Bob, as far as the oil temps go I called Joe at Revmaster and told him my tail of woe. He asked if I had any ram air going directly to my oil cooler, I said no, and he said that's the problem. He told me to cut some type of opening into the front of the lower cowl and get some air going directly into the cooler. After about 3 hrs tonight the task is completed and it really doesn't look bad at all. I did it in such a fashion that it looks like grille work as opposed to just a nasty rectangular cut. I don't even have to do any painting other than tune up the edges with a small artists brush where I cut through. Hope this weekend is a good one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!----------------KENNY On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:00:53 -0500 Bobby Muse writes: > Kenneth L Wiltrout wrote: > > > Well it's official (Drum Roll)-----99U left the rwy for the first > time > > this morn at around 9 EST. > > It was fairly uneventfull, however since the temp was around 85 > deg I saw > > my oil temp climb to 220 deg. I didn't remember just what the > normal > > range was so I decided to land after one lap around RDG airport. > After it > > cooled down I took it up one more time and the results were the > same, 220 > > on the oil. What have some of you experienced on an 85 deg day? It > does > > have an oil cooler and I'm not crazy about chopping up my cowl at > this > > point. The stats that I do recall are indicated speed of 135 mph > at > > between 3 and 3200 rpm. Sounds funny but I had my hands full as > you can > > imagine, the oil temp really bothered me. Maybe we'll go for a > ride this > > evening after the heat tails off.----------------------Kenny > > Way to go, Kenny! > > I had the same problem(temps) as you until I opened up the bottom of > the > canopy to allow more air to exit the cowling. Also, at the same > time, I > wrapped the exhaust pipes with fiber tape used in racing to keep the > heat in > the exhaust pipes and out of the engine compartment. Ever since, no > more oil > temp problems. > > By the way, I don't like but I don't worry(alot) about a oil temp of > 220 > degrees. If you look inside a general aviation airplane you'll see > that the > oil temp is green lined until about 142 degrees. The ideal temp in > cruise is > 190 to 195 degrees. > > Good Luck! > > Bobby Muse > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:18:38 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> DIEHL WING SKINS Message-Id: --============_-1219028954==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sticking to the plans is usually a safe bet. And certainly all those Diehl wing skins that are flying are a testament either to the good secondary bonds or -- more likely -- to the low stresses in the design. But the kind of failure you describe sounds to me like it must have had something to do with not preparing the vinylester skins correctly by removing the finishing wax layer that would have created a problem for any bonding system. Are you sure you couldn't have peeled those spars just as easily had the skins been attached with Vinylester? Here is an interesting report on secondary bond strengths -- and the reason I recommended Hysol: http://www.oriontechnologies.net/Documents/bonding.pdf. All the best, Bob >The reason Dan recommends Vynilester is that epoxey does not bond >well to Vinylester. I have personally seen the results of using >epoxy with his wing skins. You can pull them off of the spars with >your hands without much trouble. I am also building a Glasair IIS >and they do not recomend using anything but Vynilester for the >construction in their plans. We'll stay with the plans. >Jean > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Robert X. Cringely >Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 6:47 PM >To: krnet@mailinglists.org >Subject: Re: KR> DIEHL WING SKINS > >Vinylester is not good when used as glue. Yes, Dan Diehl recommends >it and it gets by, but it is not a good solution when pretty much any >epoxy is better. The instructions aren't always right. > > >Bob > > > > > > >>Robert X. Cringely wrote: >>> >>> WRONG, but thanks for playing. >>> >>> The Diehl skins are made with vinylester resin but vinylester is not >>> good for secondary bonds. I've built two Glasairs with vinylester >>> and know about these things. Epoxy is far better glue. But best of >>> all is Hysol paste adhesive (Aircraft Spruce part number 02-18600) >>> which is used to glue together the glass and carbon parts of Lancairs. >>> >>> Bob >> >>Bob, >> >>Seems to me, when I installed my Diehl wing skins, Dan said to use >>Vinylester mixed with flox. Now I'm getting old, and my memory tends to >>be weak, but I'm pretty sure that's what I did. 2TC's been flyin' that >>way for 200 hours now. How many hours are on "old blue" now? >> >>?????? >> >> >>Tom Crawford >>Gainesville, FL >>N262TC Flying >>N???TC Wings >>Mailto:toys@ufl.edu >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >> >> >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > >-- > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- --============_-1219028954==_ma============-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:42:50 +0200 To: langford@hiwaay.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Doug Peyton" Cc: DClarke351@aol.com Subject: Bad News Message-ID: I'm terribly sorry to hear about your run-in with the dust devil. How many hours did you have on it, and how many years had you been flying it? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:44:55 -0400 To: "'Manager Bill '" , "'kae_ar@yahoo.com '" , "'krnet@mailinglists.org '" From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> Wing Mod for Sport KR Message-ID: Just keep in mind that the relationship between the chord and distance between wing and stab, is the reason that the KR is short coupled. If you increase the chord of the main wing, it will be even more short coupled. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Manager Bill To: kae_ar@yahoo.com; krnet@mailinglists.org Sent: 6/19/01 11:53 AM Subject: KR> Wing Mod for Sport KR REPLY TO FRANK ROSS AND ALL Frank, you are exactly right: just extend the wing ribs so the trailing edge is 24 inches further aft and the wing root chord is 72 inches instead of 48. Yep, this puts it pretty close to the horizontal stab, and you probably need to increase the stab area, but not as much as you might think because the aerodynamic center of the wing got moved backward 6 inches. The only reason I suggested raising the top of the wing all the way from the max thickness point was because of appearance. I'd bet the airflow wouldn't notice it much if you simply extended the upper surface back from the top of the rear spar, but it would look more like a kluge job. And there is no law that says the rear spar has to be as deep as the rib. The whole point was to increase the wing area without changing any of the spars. Yep, it's crude, but it does the job. Sweet Old Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:36:32 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: DClarke351@aol.com Subject: Suggestions Message-ID: <7c.177ca039.2863b4d0@aol.com> As many of you know my KR was destroyed by a typical west texas dust devil this past monday. After I calmed down I took a good hard look at some of the safety problems. When I was turned over by that wind I found my self trapped inside the cockpit with my face in the sand. The bubble canopy had broken but the cockpit itself was in very good shape. The fuel was draining out of the top of the tank which made my 10 to 15 min stay in that position a bit uncomfortable until I was rescued. My suggestion in this matter would be to build a carbon fiber - kevlar pod cockpit with gull wing doors on each side. (Similiar to those found in race cars.)The pod would not compress and the doors can be kicked out quicker. Do not install the fuel tank in the position called for in the plans. Put them into the inner area of the outer wing panels. (Less chance for an electrical short causing ignition). Run your clearance light wires through the leading edge area through 2 plastic conduits.(Separate the hot from the ground) Try and design your electrical system behind the panel the same way. These are just some suggestions I have considering what I just went through. Install the ceramic fiber fire wall onto the 1/4" plywood. I know there is just no "bullet proof" airplane but a little fore thought can go a long way in your safety. More later as I think of them. Don Clarke ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:24:18 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Richard Parker" Subject: Re: KR> Suggestions Message-ID: Thanks for some great suggestions that have real life test data and experience to support it. There are only a few people that can make these kind of suggestions that have the experience and knowledge that you now have. Its very valuable and credible to the rest of us. The KR-Net is one of the few opportunities that an "accident victim" has to educate other kr builders. think about it ;-) Rich Parker glad you are still with us. >From: DClarke351@aol.com >To: krnet@mailinglists.org >Subject: KR> Suggestions >Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:36:32 EDT > >As many of you know my KR was destroyed by a typical west texas dust devil >this past monday. After I calmed down I took a good hard look at some of >the >safety problems. When I was turned over by that wind I found my self >trapped >inside the cockpit with my face in the sand. The bubble canopy had broken >but >the cockpit itself was in very good shape. The fuel was draining out of the >top of the tank which made my 10 to 15 min stay in that position a bit >uncomfortable until I was rescued. My suggestion in this matter would be to >build a carbon fiber - kevlar pod cockpit with gull wing doors on each >side. >(Similiar to those found in race cars.)The pod would not compress and the >doors can be kicked out quicker. Do not install the fuel tank in the >position >called for in the plans. Put them into the inner area of the outer wing >panels. (Less chance for an electrical short causing ignition). Run your >clearance light wires through the leading edge area through 2 plastic >conduits.(Separate the hot from the ground) Try and design your electrical >system behind the panel the same way. These are just some suggestions I >have >considering what I just went through. Install the ceramic fiber fire wall >onto the 1/4" plywood. I know there is just no "bullet proof" airplane but >a >little fore thought can go a long way in your safety. More later as I think >of them. Don Clarke > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:47:51 -0700 To: DClarke351@aol.com, kr From: POND CARTER Subject: Re: KR> Suggestions Message-ID: <3B32DC07.F55D680A@home.com> Thanks for the insite. Sorry about your KR. Your life experience lessons have not fallen on deaf ears. Carter and Darren DClarke351@aol.com wrote: > > As many of you know my KR was destroyed by a typical west texas dust devil > this past monday. After I calmed down I took a good hard look at some of the > safety problems. When I was turned over by that wind I found my self trapped > inside the cockpit with my face in the sand. The bubble canopy had broken but > the cockpit itself was in very good shape. The fuel was draining out of the > top of the tank which made my 10 to 15 min stay in that position a bit > uncomfortable until I was rescued. My suggestion in this matter would be to > build a carbon fiber - kevlar pod cockpit with gull wing doors on each side. > (Similiar to those found in race cars.)The pod would not compress and the > doors can be kicked out quicker. Do not install the fuel tank in the position > called for in the plans. Put them into the inner area of the outer wing > panels. (Less chance for an electrical short causing ignition). Run your > clearance light wires through the leading edge area through 2 plastic > conduits.(Separate the hot from the ground) Try and design your electrical > system behind the panel the same way. These are just some suggestions I have > considering what I just went through. Install the ceramic fiber fire wall > onto the 1/4" plywood. I know there is just no "bullet proof" airplane but a > little fore thought can go a long way in your safety. More later as I think > of them. Don Clarke > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:59:05 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Michael Sharp" Subject: Friday Sale. Message-ID: Well before I could get really going I'm forced to sell my KR2S project. Formally owned by Mike Mimms. Personal developments force the sale... Most of you know the EXCELLENT workmanship that went into the bird..... Let me know if ya'll are interested..... Located in South Louisiana Mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:51:34 -0700 To: DClarke351@aol.com,krnet@mailinglists.org From: Jan Laan Subject: Re: KR> Suggestions, leaking fuel upside down Message-ID: <99323946701@smtp.vphos.net> Couldn't the fuel being prevented from leaking, when inverted, through the installation of a simple check valve in the vent line? Jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:23:52 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Joseph H. Horton" Subject: Firewall Materials Message-ID: <20010622.172638.-394419.7.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> KR Group; Aircraft, Spruce, & Spec. shows 1/8" and 1/16" fiberfax. Is the !/16" acceptable? Also Benglis' Firewall Foreward says that aluminum is O.K. over fiberfax for the firewall or should it have the .018 st. stl. over or is the .018 stainless steel alright by it's self over the KR's plywood firewall? Thanks in advance for the help. Joe Horton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:44:36 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Firewall Materials Message-ID: <007501c0fb6c$ea4b0a40$d2f6f818@cmc3075662a> > Aircraft, Spruce, & Spec. shows 1/8" and 1/16" fiberfax. Is the !/16" > acceptable? Also Benglis' Firewall Foreward > says that aluminum is O.K. over fiberfax for the firewall or should it > have the .018 st. stl. over or is the .018 stainless steel alright by > it's self over the KR's plywood firewall? Joe, When you order a "firewall" from RR you get some stainless sheet that is roughly .005" thick, and is very light at 19 ounces, along with some 1/16" Fiberfrax that weighs in at under 4.5 ounces. That is apparently good enough for previous inspectors, and since all you're trying to do is provide abrasion resistance for the Fiberfrax. .018 stainless weighs about 4.4 POUNDs (I just happen to have a sheet, the size of a KR firewall sitting here, but I'll swear I wasn't stupid enough to order it for that purpose). The obvious moral of this story is use Fiberfrax (I'm using 1/8" just for overkill) and very thin stainless sheet. Aluminum would certainly work, but it's gotta be heavier than the thin stainless sheet, and will eventually corrode and not look nearly as nice as the SS. Whatever you do, you'd be crazy not to use Fiberfrax, since it's so light, cheap, and effective. Speaking of firewalls, I'm very close to sticking mine one. With the upper cowling sitting in it's proper orientation (not really finished yet, or attached), I can sit in the plane and have an amazingly clear view of the horizon with the plane level. I guess there's a silver lining to having my thrust line 2.5" lower than stock... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:02:32 -0500 To: krnet From: "Rex T. Ellington" Subject: Bottom Longerons & Spar locations Message-ID: <3B33F8B8.B415B3FB@telepath.com> Hi Builders I'm going through a whole bookbox of saved emails to try and keep up with my bulding. I'm falling behind. Here are two questions that will be important before Monday. Help. 1. A couple of old emails suggested increasing the vertical distance between the top and bottom longerons at the firewall by 2 " , to give a smoother curve into cowling. What does experience say to do (I will be using a rear-drive engine). 2. In the thick section of notes regarding the laminar flow 18% wing, there were a couple regarding relocation of the spars, i.e., spacing between them and distance from firewall. What happened regarding this? By the way, any performance data on the project now flying with the new airfoil? Thanks a bunch for answers. Rex Ellington Norman OK ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************