From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 18 Apr 2002 16:13:29 -0000 Issue 411 Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:13 AM krnet Digest 18 Apr 2002 16:13:29 -0000 Issue 411 Topics (messages 9706 through 9727): Re: OOPS!!!!!! 9706 by: Eduardo José Jankosz Re: startup supplies 9707 by: Rick Re: Fabricated parts and pieces of KR 9708 by: Robert Stone 9711 by: Ron Eason Re: supplies 9709 by: Tim Brown 9715 by: Frank Ross Picture of the week 9710 by: Bob Lee fabricated w.a.f. 9712 by: "" To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:02:29 -0300 To: "rfarmer" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eduardo_Jos=E9_Jankosz?=" Cc: "krnet" Subject: Re: KR> OOPS!!!!!! Message-Id: <200204171101.g3HB1OZ65991@cwbone.bsi.com.br> Hi, Bob! I was already worry!!!!!! But this is "things" that are usual in the WEB!!!!!! What my indiscretion about "Weber's email" last time! These advises in the mailing list are welcome!!!!!!! You are forgave! Eduardo José Jankosz jankosz@bsi.com.br http://www.bsi.com.br/cbcb http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/kr2-brasil Curitiba - PR - BRASIL ---------- De: rfarmer Para: krnet Assunto: KR> OOPS!!!!!! Data: Terça-feira, 16 de Abril de 2002 09:58 Virus that I posted earlier was not on Eduardo,s email but the one next to it. I hope this did not cause any problems for anyone. Forgive me I will look closer from now on. Red faced as usual Bob Farmer ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:02:10 -0600 To: 'Ricky Farley' , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Rick Subject: RE: KR> startup supplies Message-ID: <41ED2F1280124E4D8B88691C9A9B5FDE011B05@mail.binoids.com> Hi Ricky You're right on the Money. A Quart Kit of T-88 and the wood you're ordered will take you a few months into the project boat stage. With you're work bench, tools and clamps... That's about it. If you check my link below which is somewhat out dated, almost all the pictures I have published are with wood and T-88 only. If you don't have one, a small bench top combo 4" disk and belt sander from delta is great. The machine is about $100 bucks and is great for gusset fine tuning. (If you can afford it a compound miter saw saved lots of time too.) I also avoided sanding whenever possible so as not to have dust embedded into the joint wood surface. If I did sand a piece, I applied and removed packing tape on these joint surfaces prior to gluing to remove the last bit of embedded dust. Let the T-88 soak into the wood for a few mins before assembling the joints. The wood will really soak it in sometimes especially on end grain and you'll need to apply more glue when this happens. Don't skimp on glue and do not over tighten the glue joints with too much pressure and squeeze "all" the glue out. When you do the stapling of plywood to the sides an inexpensive electric stapler works great! Use 3/8" staples. Not any longer or it will be hell to remove them. Have fun Rick Hubka http://www.hubka.com/kr_main.htm rick@hubka.com 65 Butler Crescent NW Calgary AB T2L 1K4 Canada -----Original Message----- From: Ricky Farley [mailto:geek92@cox-internet.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:01 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> supplies When I place my order for my spruce and plywood, what other basic supplies do I need to get. I assume I will not need foam on the first order, but I suspect I will need epoxy or some other glue. How much and of what kind should I order to get me through building the boat? From the best I can tell from reading the post and reading everyone's construction logs, I gather that T-88 is the best glue to use, but how much do I need to order. What other things am I going to find I need as I start the building process. (I already know I'll need more clamps). Thanks, Ricky San Angelo TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:47:12 -0500 To: "Ron Eason" , From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Re: KR> Fabricated parts and pieces of KR Message-ID: <002e01c1e61e$c2e0bc00$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron: I looked at that web site and put it into "favorites" at once. = This is a very valuable source for builders, thanks a bunch. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX rstone4@hot.rr.com=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ron Eason=20 To: krnet@mailinglists.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:31 PM Subject: KR> Fabricated parts and pieces of KR Anyone wishing to have anything fabricated with a competitive price = quotes contact me, I have a subscription to Thomas Regional at = http://thomasregional.com/newtrd/index.html thousands of machine shops = all over the U.S. will quote competitive prices one or a 100 pcs. = doesn't matter. You provide the details. Ronald R. Eason Sr. President / CEO Ph: 816-468-4091 Fax: 816-468-5465 e-Fax: 240-371-5833 =20 http://www.jrl-engineering.com=20 Our Attitude Makes The Difference! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org=20 For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron:  I looked at that web = site and put=20 it into "favorites" at once.  This is a very valuable source = for=20 builders, thanks a bunch.
 
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, = TX
rstone4@hot.rr.com 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ron=20 Eason
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 = 10:31=20 PM
Subject: KR> Fabricated = parts and=20 pieces of KR

Anyone wishing to have anything fabricated with a competitive = price=20 quotes contact me, I have a subscription to Thomas Regional at http://thomasregiona= l.com/newtrd/index.html thousands=20 of machine shops all over the U.S. will quote competitive prices one = or a 100=20 pcs. doesn't matter.  You provide the details.

Ronald R. Eason = Sr.
President / CEO
Ph:=20 816-468-4091
Fax: 816-468-5465 e-Fax:=20 240-371-5833

 3D""

http://www.jrl-engineering.com=20
Our Attitude Makes = The=20 Difference!

=

------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
To=20 post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply = all"

To=20 UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org
For = additional=20 commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org

See the KRNet = archives at=20 http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1E5F4.D99E5DA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:50:20 -0500 To: "Robert Stone" From: "Ron Eason" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Fabricated parts and pieces of KR Message-ID: <002001c1e66a$a25277c0$31631e41@Administration> ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1E640.B9533CE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C1E640.B954C380" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C1E640.B954C380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We use it in our works at JRL. But I think you need to purchase a = subscription to advertise your fab work. I have one and its free to KR = builders to get quotes. Serious RFQ's only please. KRRon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Stone=20 To: Ron Eason ; krnet@mailinglists.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: Re: KR> Fabricated parts and pieces of KR Ron: I looked at that web site and put it into "favorites" at once. = This is a very valuable source for builders, thanks a bunch. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX rstone4@hot.rr.com=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ron Eason=20 To: krnet@mailinglists.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:31 PM Subject: KR> Fabricated parts and pieces of KR Anyone wishing to have anything fabricated with a competitive price = quotes contact me, I have a subscription to Thomas Regional at = http://thomasregional.com/newtrd/index.html thousands of machine shops = all over the U.S. will quote competitive prices one or a 100 pcs. = doesn't matter. You provide the details. Ronald R. Eason Sr. President / CEO Ph: 816-468-4091 Fax: 816-468-5465 e-Fax: 240-371-5833 =20 http://www.jrl-engineering.com=20 Our Attitude Makes The Difference! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- = --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org=20 For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C1E640.B954C380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We use it in our works at JRL.  But I think you need to = purchase a=20 subscription to advertise your fab work.  I have one and its free = to KR=20 builders to get quotes.
Serious RFQ's only please.
KRRon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Robert Stone=20
To: Ron Eason ; krnet@mailinglists.org =
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 = 9:47=20 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Fabricated = parts and=20 pieces of KR

Ron:  I looked at that web = site and=20 put it into "favorites" at once.  This is a very valuable = source for=20 builders, thanks a bunch.
 
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, = TX
rstone4@hot.rr.com 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ron=20 Eason
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 = 10:31=20 PM
Subject: KR> Fabricated = parts and=20 pieces of KR

Anyone wishing to have anything fabricated with a competitive = price=20 quotes contact me, I have a subscription to Thomas Regional at http://thomasregiona= l.com/newtrd/index.html thousands=20 of machine shops all over the U.S. will quote competitive prices one = or a=20 100 pcs. doesn't matter.  You provide the details.

Ronald R. Eason = Sr.
President / CEO
Ph:=20 816-468-4091
Fax: 816-468-5465 e-Fax:=20 240-371-5833

 3D""

http://www.jrl-engineering.com=20
Our Attitude Makes = The=20 Difference!

=

------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
To=20 post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply = all"

To=20 UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org
For = additional=20 commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org

See the KRNet = archives=20 at=20 http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/
------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C1E640.B954C380-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1E640.B9533CE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:43:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Ricky Farley , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Tim Brown Subject: Re: KR> supplies Message-ID: <20020417154313.96644.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Rick: If you've got a birthday coming up or, if appropriate, Father's Day, put on your wish list spring clamps, or a gift card at Home Depot, Lowes, or similar. You'll need a bunch of these in a couple months. To see what I mean, check out Mark Langford's spar building section or mine at http://www.angelfire.com/super/timkr2s Also, as time and money become available, in addition to the sander already mentioned a small band saw (also Delta, or similar) at a little over $100.00 will be worth its weight in gold. Tim --- Ricky Farley wrote: > When I place my order for my spruce and > plywood, what other basic > supplies do I need to get __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:53:17 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> supplies Message-ID: <20020418045317.63167.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Remember, K-Mart is closing down a lot of stores. There's one near me selling off a LOT of stuff for really GOOD prices. Saw their 10" compound miter saw for really nice price. Also other tools. Check it out. Frank --- Tim Brown wrote: > Rick: > > If you've got a birthday coming up or, if > appropriate, Father's Day, put on your wish list > spring clamps, or a gift card at Home Depot, > Lowes, or similar. You'll need a bunch of these > in a couple months. To see what I mean, check > out Mark Langford's spar building section or mine > at http://www.angelfire.com/super/timkr2s > > > Also, as time and money become available, in > addition to the sander already mentioned a small > band saw (also Delta, or similar) at a little > over $100.00 will be worth its weight in gold. > > Tim > > > --- Ricky Farley wrote: > > When I place my order for my spruce and > > plywood, what other basic > > supplies do I need to get __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:35:33 -0400 To: "KRnet \(E-mail\)" From: "Bob Lee" Subject: Picture of the week Message-ID: <001501c1e657$ced9d490$040c0b0a@cheryl> Someone on the KRnet has a picture of the week on his web site. I think that's a great idea so I copied it. Anything that gets us to document progress is good for all of us. Here's how I added it to my web page: http://flyboybob.com/pictures_of_the_week.htm. Thanks to whoever I stold this idea from. Regards, Bob Lee _____________________________________ e-mail: mailto:bob@flyboybob.com web site: http://flyboybob.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:47:52 -0400 (EDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "" Cc: Subject: fabricated w.a.f. Message-Id: <20020418014752.E6FBD3DE9@xmxpita.excite.com> --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a765d59433fcf7bc1ab2a2715848242b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price if one buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has anyone tried this. ------------------------------------------------ --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a765d59433fcf7bc1ab2a2715848242b-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:47:52 -0400 (EDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "" Cc: Subject: fabricated w.a.f. Message-Id: <20020418014752.E6FBD3DE9@xmxpita.excite.com> --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a765d59433fcf7bc1ab2a2715848242b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price if one buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has anyone tried this. ------------------------------------------------ --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a765d59433fcf7bc1ab2a2715848242b-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:10:16 -0500 To: , From: "Dean Collette" Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <020501c1e68e$f2780160$6270d118@DSKTOP> Bobby wrote: > Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price if one buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has anyone tried this. It's been a long time since I posted anything to KRNet, and since I have 20 minutes free, I'll give you my two cents on the subject. A few years ago I did exactly what you are proposing, namely, I took the drawings and went around to several local machine shops and asked them to quote a set of WAFs. A couple of things happened. First, if anyone found out that the parts are for experimental airplanes, many would jack up the price or refuse to quote it. Secondly, material became an issue - most machine shops don't stock 4130 so they have to special order it in a small quantity so the price goes through the roof. If I offered to supply it, they either want specific sheet sizes that are difficult to get or the waste amount starts effecting the price. Then came the big issue - heat treating. In order for the WAFs to made correctly, they need to be normalized to the spec called out in the plans (I don't recall what it is off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.) When you order 4130, most (but not all) is sold in the "normal" state. But, if the distributor cuts it with a torch or laser, it needs to be normalized again. Then, depending on how the machine shop works the metal (i.e., laser, water jet, plasma, etc.) it most likely needs to be normalized again. This process is very important to the finished piece, because it dramatically effects the properties of the metal which translates to your safety. I talked to lots of different shops. I even called in a few favors, and asked for the "special discounts." But, in almost every case the price was outrageous. However, at long last, I found a shop with a laser that just so happens to make a lot of parts out of 4130 and they knew all about heat treating, and were fine with the experimental airplane business. But, I had to supply CAD drawings for the parts that they could suck into their machine, and a load of education (I won't go into that,) and patience. Since these guys could offer better quality and a better price then what was currently available, TET had a bunch made and has offered them for sale at a couple of different times to KR builders. I know it's not Friday, and this is really not an advertisement. I have heard of guys getting their WAFs made at reasonable prices at local shops, so it may be possible. I know that a bunch of guys have purchased the stock material and made them at home. If you know what you're doing - great, have at it. Working with 4130 is, quite frankly, a bitch, unless you have the right equipment. So, there you have it. If you have more money then time, just buy them. If you've got plenty of time and a little luck, you might find somebody who can make them for you at a reasonable rate. Just make sure the parts are at the right heat treating spec when you bolt them on the project. After all, they are holding the wings on . . . Dean Collette Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC mailto:dcollette@wi.rr.com See us at: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:30:40 -0500 To: , From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <001201c1e6c4$163fc120$31631e41@Administration> Depends on the local economy, availability of machine shops ect. but if you get enough shops to quote you will get very good prices. Most shops have CNC plasma cutters or laser cutters and it takes minutes to do. Quantities make a difference in the pricing because of the setup time. I made my own years ago. KRRon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:47 PM Subject: KR> fabricated w.a.f. > Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price if one buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has anyone tried this. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:40:27 -0500 To: "Dean Collette" , , From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <002f01c1e6c5$747ba2d0$31631e41@Administration> You can buy the steel heat treated ready to cut and drill. The parts don't need to be retreated. Not enough heat is generated during cutting unless you cut them with a torch. I cut mine with a high speed band saw. KRRon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Collette" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:10 PM Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. > Bobby wrote: > > Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price > if one buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has > anyone tried this. > > It's been a long time since I posted anything to KRNet, and > since I have 20 minutes free, I'll give you my two cents on > the subject. > > A few years ago I did exactly what you are proposing, > namely, I took the drawings and went around to several local > machine shops and asked them to quote a set of WAFs. A > couple of things happened. First, if anyone found out that > the parts are for experimental airplanes, many would jack up > the price or refuse to quote it. Secondly, material became > an issue - most machine shops don't stock 4130 so they have > to special order it in a small quantity so the price goes > through the roof. If I offered to supply it, they either > want specific sheet sizes that are difficult to get or the > waste amount starts effecting the price. > > Then came the big issue - heat treating. In order for the > WAFs to made correctly, they need to be normalized to the > spec called out in the plans (I don't recall what it is off > the top of my head, and I'm too lazy to look it up right > now.) When you order 4130, most (but not all) is sold in the > "normal" state. But, if the distributor cuts it with a torch > or laser, it needs to be normalized again. Then, depending > on how the machine shop works the metal (i.e., laser, water > jet, plasma, etc.) it most likely needs to be normalized > again. This process is very important to the finished piece, > because it dramatically effects the properties of the metal > which translates to your safety. > > I talked to lots of different shops. I even called in a few > favors, and asked for the "special discounts." But, in > almost every case the price was outrageous. However, at long > last, I found a shop with a laser that just so happens to > make a lot of parts out of 4130 and they knew all about heat > treating, and were fine with the experimental airplane > business. But, I had to supply CAD drawings for the parts > that they could suck into their machine, and a load of > education (I won't go into that,) and patience. Since these > guys could offer better quality and a better price then what > was currently available, TET had a bunch made and has > offered them for sale at a couple of different times to KR > builders. > > I know it's not Friday, and this is really not an > advertisement. I have heard of guys getting their WAFs made > at reasonable prices at local shops, so it may be possible. > I know that a bunch of guys have purchased the stock > material and made them at home. If you know what you're > doing - great, have at it. Working with 4130 is, quite > frankly, a bitch, unless you have the right equipment. > > So, there you have it. If you have more money then time, > just buy them. If you've got plenty of time and a little > luck, you might find somebody who can make them for you at a > reasonable rate. Just make sure the parts are at the right > heat treating spec when you bolt them on the project. After > all, they are holding the wings on . . . > > Dean Collette > Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC > mailto:dcollette@wi.rr.com > See us at: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:23:39 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: >From: "Ron Eason" Most shops have >CNC plasma cutters or laser cutters and it takes minutes to do. Quantities Like Dr. Dean said in his post, if the shop uses the above you will need to heat treat again. RR sent a bunch of WAFs out a couple of years ago that you could bend with your bare hands. Scary thought. I had a set of TET WAFs. Gang, why try and reinvent the wheel. The WAFs Mark and Dean sale are the best you will find. Think about it, 32 WAFs per airplane, multiplied by the number of bolt holes, multiplied by the lightning holes (I know that's not what they are, but just want to see if you do:-), band saw blades, drill bits, Oops, and so on....... TET has the best deal around. Why go through all the heartache and headache. Why go through all the trouble to finding a shop when Mark and Dean have the things and are not making a damn thing off of them. Unless you just want to prove to yourself that you can make them...........I didn't need too. Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:01:51 -0600 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Rick Subject: RE: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <41ED2F1280124E4D8B88691C9A9B5FDE011B09@mail.binoids.com> Well said Dana. I also have a set of TET WAFs. It is not simply not possible to make them better. You could only hope to equal the quality. I saved time, money and have peace of mind. The bolt holes are a perfect fit. You actually push off the powder coating off to get the bolts through the holes. Yes they are powder coated and the 2 different angled bends for the 16 rear brackets are perfect. They are even nice to look at but my wife doesn't agree :) Seriously - I know it's not Friday but WAF's are one of the most important parts of a KR and safety have no time or any other restrictions. It's one thing I'll never have to question or worry about when I'm up there at 10,000 feet going over those peaks with my son sitting next to me and the wind starts to toss us about. Also... It's nice to see a KRNet post from Dean Collette again. Rick Hubka http://www.hubka.com/kr_main.htm rick@hubka.com 65 Butler Crescent NW Calgary AB TELL 1K4 Canada -----Original Message----- From: Dana Overall [mailto:bo124rs@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:24 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. >From: "Ron Eason" Most shops have >CNC plasma cutters or laser cutters and it takes minutes to do. >Quantities Like Dr. Dean said in his post, if the shop uses the above you will need to heat treat again. RR sent a bunch of WAFs out a couple of years ago that you could bend with your bare hands. Scary thought. I had a set of TET WAFs. Gang, why try and reinvent the wheel. The WAFs Mark and Dean sale are the best you will find. Think about it, 32 WAFs per airplane, multiplied by the number of bolt holes, multiplied by the lightning holes (I know that's not what they are, but just want to see if you do:-), band saw blades, drill bits, Oops, and so on....... TET has the best deal around. Why go through all the heartache and headache. Why go through all the trouble to finding a shop when Mark and Dean have the things and are not making a damn thing off of them. Unless you just want to prove to yourself that you can make them...........I didn't need too. Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:29:33 -0400 To: bobby_whisenant1@excite.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <20020418.095353.-32049.3.virgnvs@juno.com> With the bends I do not think it is worth the trouble. Buy them, Virg [ two lines Larry] On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:47:52 -0400 (EDT) "" writes: > Is the price of w.a.f going to be the near the same price if one > buys the mat.and takes them to a machine shop.Has anyone tried > this. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:55:45 -0700 To: "Dana Overall" , From: "Stephen P. Glover" Subject: Re: KR> fabricated w.a.f. Message-ID: <002001c1e6e0$bd102820$c18afea9@IntelliSpec> How can you tell the difference between the good ones and the bad ones listed without bending them? Thanks, Steve n925sg@earthilink.net >RR sent a bunch of WAFs out a couple of years ago that > you could bend with your bare hands. Scary thought. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:18:56 +0200 To: From: "Serge F. VIDAL" Subject: The WAF mystery Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C1E6B1.AF5A11C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Could somebody please explain: 1 – What makes WAFs so critical, mechanically speaking? 2 – What are their specified thickness, holes sizes, and tolerances? You see, last time I opened the wing joints on ZS-WEC, all I saw was metal blades that seemed fairly ordinary to me. I just checked for corrosion, did not find any, was happy. Now, if anything can fail there, I would like to know. And if my WAFs are substandard, I would like to be able to see it. After all, I'm going to be a father soon, so I now have a duty to try to stay alive! Serge VIDAL KR2 ZS-WEC Johannesburg, South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C1E6B1.AF5A11C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:50:40 -0500 To: , From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> The WAF mystery Message-ID: <004701c1e6c6$e19c1420$31631e41@Administration> They are not a precision part. The tolerances are not so tight that you can't make them by hand. I cut mine with a high speed band saw. Drill the holes in pairs with drills that will be the sized the bolts, them in bearing [tight fit]. Simple! No fuss not must. Use thicker material if you are unsure. KRRon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serge F. VIDAL" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: KR> The WAF mystery > Could somebody please explain: > 1 - What makes WAFs so critical, mechanically speaking? > 2 - What are their specified thickness, holes sizes, and tolerances? > > You see, last time I opened the wing joints on ZS-WEC, all I saw was metal > blades that seemed fairly ordinary to me. I just checked for corrosion, did > not find any, was happy. Now, if anything can fail there, I would like to > know. And if my WAFs are substandard, I would like to be able to see it. > > After all, I'm going to be a father soon, so I now have a duty to try to > stay alive! > > Serge VIDAL > KR2 ZS-WEC > Johannesburg, South Africa > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:05:19 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: RE: KR> The WAF mystery Message-ID: Hello Guys As far as the tolerances go on the WAF fittings ( I speak out of experience) it is important that the holes especially around the main bolts are a very tight fit. I recommend, if you are fabricating them yourself to, drill the holes 1 size smaller and ream them to size to get a tight fit. The last thing you need is a shaky wing (pun intended). One other thing I have heard (no kidding) some people are of the opinion that stainless steels are stronger than 4130, it is true in some cases but most of the time it's not the case. Be careful, if you are substituting material (it is an experimental after all) PLEASE make sure the material properties are the same or better as the one you are going to substitute. Cheers Danny Livingstone Sasolburg Free State South Africa > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Eason [SMTP:ron@jrl-engineering.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:51 PM > To: svidal@icon.co.za; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> The WAF mystery > > They are not a precision part. The tolerances are not so tight that you > can't make them by hand. I cut mine with a high speed band saw. Drill the > holes in pairs with drills that will be the sized the bolts, them in > bearing > [tight fit]. Simple! No fuss not must. Use thicker material if you are > unsure. > > KRRon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Serge F. VIDAL" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:18 AM > Subject: KR> The WAF mystery > > > > Could somebody please explain: > > 1 - What makes WAFs so critical, mechanically speaking? > > 2 - What are their specified thickness, holes sizes, and tolerances? > > > > You see, last time I opened the wing joints on ZS-WEC, all I saw was > metal > > blades that seemed fairly ordinary to me. I just checked for corrosion, > did > > not find any, was happy. Now, if anything can fail there, I would like > to > > know. And if my WAFs are substandard, I would like to be able to see it. > > > > After all, I'm going to be a father soon, so I now have a duty to try to > > stay alive! > > > > Serge VIDAL > > KR2 ZS-WEC > > Johannesburg, South Africa > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ********************************************************************** This e-mail and its attachments, if any, are intended only for use by the named addressee(s) and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or both. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are strictly prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this email and its attachments, if any. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this e-mail, its attachments, and any printed copies of any of them. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:41:02 -0400 To: danny.livingstone@natref.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> The WAF mystery Message-ID: <20020418.095353.-32049.5.virgnvs@juno.com> Or do not call it a KR, Virg On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:05:19 +0200 "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" writes: > Hello Guys > > As far as the tolerances go on the WAF fittings ( I speak out of > experience) > it is important that the holes especially around the main bolts are > a very > tight fit. I recommend, if you are fabricating them yourself to, > drill the > holes 1 size smaller and ream them to size to get a tight fit. The > last > thing you need is a shaky wing (pun intended). > > One other thing I have heard (no kidding) some people are of the > opinion > that stainless steels are stronger than 4130, it is true in some > cases but > most of the time it's not the case. Be careful, if you are > substituting > material (it is an experimental after all) PLEASE make sure the > material > properties are the same or better as the one you are going to > substitute. > > Cheers > > Danny Livingstone > Sasolburg > Free State > South Africa > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Eason [SMTP:ron@jrl-engineering.com] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:51 PM > > To: svidal@icon.co.za; krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: Re: KR> The WAF mystery > > > > They are not a precision part. The tolerances are not so tight > that you > > can't make them by hand. I cut mine with a high speed band saw. > Drill the > > holes in pairs with drills that will be the sized the bolts, them > in > > bearing > > [tight fit]. Simple! No fuss not must. Use thicker material if > you are > > unsure. > > > > KRRon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Serge F. VIDAL" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:18 AM > > Subject: KR> The WAF mystery > > > > > > > Could somebody please explain: > > > 1 - What makes WAFs so critical, mechanically speaking? > > > 2 - What are their specified thickness, holes sizes, and > tolerances? > > > > > > You see, last time I opened the wing joints on ZS-WEC, all I saw > was > > metal > > > blades that seemed fairly ordinary to me. I just checked for > corrosion, > > did > > > not find any, was happy. Now, if anything can fail there, I > would like > > to > > > know. And if my WAFs are substandard, I would like to be able to > see it. > > > > > > After all, I'm going to be a father soon, so I now have a duty > to try to > > > stay alive! > > > > > > Serge VIDAL > > > KR2 ZS-WEC > > > Johannesburg, South Africa > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > ********************************************************************** > This e-mail and its attachments, if any, are intended only > for use by the named addressee(s) and may contain > information that is legally privileged, confidential, or both. If > you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are > strictly prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying > this email and its attachments, if any. If you have received > this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this e-mail, > its attachments, and any printed copies of any of them. > ********************************************************************** > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:37:40 -0400 To: svidal@icon.co.za From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> The WAF mystery Message-ID: <20020418.095353.-32049.4.virgnvs@juno.com> Specs etc in the plans. They are holding the wings to the fus, and your derr in the air. DO NOT skimp, Virg On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:18:56 +0200 "Serge F. VIDAL" writes: > Could somebody please explain: > 1 – What makes WAFs so critical, mechanically speaking? > 2 – What are their specified thickness, holes sizes, and tolerances? > > You see, last time I opened the wing joints on ZS-WEC, all I saw was > metal > blades that seemed fairly ordinary to me. I just checked for > corrosion, did > not find any, was happy. Now, if anything can fail there, I would > like to > know. And if my WAFs are substandard, I would like to be able to see > it. > > After all, I'm going to be a father soon, so I now have a duty to > try to > stay alive! > > Serge VIDAL > KR2 ZS-WEC > Johannesburg, South Africa > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:13:56 +0200 To: From: "Serge F. VIDAL" Subject: A tale of eight rubber bushes Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E704.CE18C5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm now getting ZS-WEC for two major events: the local EAA gathering, and the engine swap. Yes, I'm upgrading ZS-WEC from a 2 liter VW to a 2.4 liter VW. Better for our hot-and-high conditions. This is how I discovered that the engine mount bushes are worn beyond recognition. These bushes are conical mount bushes, Continental-type, but apparently non standard. The original builder cast them out of elastomer. Part of the degradation has come from a bad design of the engine mount (no countersink to take advantage of the bush shape). The rest comes from a resin which is slightly too soft and not heat resistant enough. Anyway, the story is that I had to get a crash course on elastomers, have a mould made, choose a material, and try my luck. I demoulded the first bush half an hour ago. Result: slightly too soft, but otherwise OK. Therefore, I now qualify as a bush pilot! :-) The only trouble is that with 7 bushes to go, and four hours between demouldings, I will have to wake up in the middle of the night to demould if I want to be ready for the week-end. Think my wife will understand? Serge VIDAL KR2 ZS-WEC Johannesburg, South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E704.CE18C5E0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************