From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 21 Jun 2002 21:23:56 -0000 Issue 459 Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:24 PM krnet Digest 21 Jun 2002 21:23:56 -0000 Issue 459 Topics (messages 11000 through 11029): Re: RC servos and other matters 11000 by: WMartensJr.aol.com 11011 by: Jerry Mahurin 11015 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11025 by: WMartensJr.aol.com 11026 by: Jerry Mahurin Re: gear and skins 11001 by: Frank Ross 11009 by: virgnvs.juno.com EA81 subaru URGENT 11002 by: Phillip Matheson 11005 by: larry flesner 11006 by: Phillip Matheson 11008 by: Frank Ross Re: radio interferience 11003 by: JIM VANCE Re: Use of belly boards (speed brakes) 11004 by: larry flesner Duh........what day is it:-) 11007 by: Dana Overall Re: spar dimensions and weights 11010 by: virgnvs.juno.com 11012 by: Frank Ross 11014 by: Jerry Mahurin 11021 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11024 by: Ronald Freiberger 11029 by: rfarmer Re: Fiberglass on fuselage/epoxy 11013 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us RC servos 11016 by: Bob Lee 11017 by: Dennis Mingear Re: On Star Services [ GPS and cell phone] 11018 by: Ronald Freiberger 11020 by: Robert X. Cringely composite material source 11019 by: rfarmer 11022 by: Steven Eberhart Reinforcing stubs 11023 by: Eric Evezard spar design 11027 by: Robert Abel response to Freiberger 11028 by: Robert Abel Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:57:18 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: WMartensJr@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters Message-ID: <121.12b7bade.2a43fe1e@aol.com> --part1_121.12b7bade.2a43fe1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:44:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerrymahurin@charter.net writes: > Having built a lot of R/C model airplanes; I am very familiar with the model > servos.... There are positional ones that stay where you put them - used > for > throttle and trim in modles. And then there are the centering ones used > generally for control surfaces. > Actually it isn't the servos that are positional. The control reactions youa re describing are setup on the transmitter. Anyoen considering using an r/c servo would be well advised to look into large geared servos used on r/c sailboats though. They are much larger servos with very significant torque values certainly capable of handling a small trim tab on a full size aircraft. I know of a few instances where people have done just that. One was on a Rutan LongEZ and another was on a high wing, can't remember the type. Unfortunately it was many years ago and I do not have pictures. But, with advances in small electric motor designs and the way r/c coreless motors have improved I think this would be a good way to set up an electric trim. Set up a pot to adjust from within the cockpit wherever you like. Motor position is infinitely adjustable and cost is minimal. Lurk mode back on. Walt --part1_121.12b7bade.2a43fe1e_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:36:46 -0400 To: WMartensJr@aol.com From: "Jerry Mahurin" Cc: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters Message-ID: Walt, I have a foxhole we can share if the Lurk mode fails....;-) Anyway, I beg to differ with you on the types of R/C servos in that there are two types....positional and self centering.... Why else would they market two with that being the only diffrence.... I don't think you could hook up a throttle servo to the receiver in the aileron port. I do agree with you on the boat servos. Before we found the mirror motors, we were going to use a sail winch servo. About $60.... As for cockpit control, you can use the switch out of the car, or just a simple DPDT center open rocker switch from Radio Shack. You only have two wires to deal with since you can change the direction of the motor by reversing the poles.... Please always jump in with your .02 cents worth. That's what this group is all about.... 'Sides you can always share our foxhole..... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:57:18 EDT WMartensJr@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:44:51 PM Eastern Daylight >Time, >jerrymahurin@charter.net writes: > > >> Having built a lot of R/C model airplanes; I am very >>familiar with the model >> servos.... There are positional ones that stay where you >>put them - used >> for >> throttle and trim in modles. And then there are the >>centering ones used >> generally for control surfaces. >> > > > >Actually it isn't the servos that are positional. The >control reactions youa >re describing are setup on the transmitter. > >Anyoen considering using an r/c servo would be well >advised to look into >large geared servos used on r/c sailboats though. They >are much larger >servos with very significant torque values certainly >capable of handling a >small trim tab on a full size aircraft. I know of a few >instances where >people have done just that. One was on a Rutan LongEZ >and another was on a >high wing, can't remember the type. > >Unfortunately it was many years ago and I do not have >pictures. But, with >advances in small electric motor designs and the way r/c >coreless motors have >improved I think this would be a good way to set up an >electric trim. Set up >a pot to adjust from within the cockpit wherever you >like. Motor position is >infinitely adjustable and cost is minimal. > >Lurk mode back on. > >Walt Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:15:45 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters Message-ID: If you hold a rudder control full left and don't let it go. The control surface remains there. The only thing different for the throttle is that you don't have to hold it physically, it simply stays there because of the type of control in the Tx. Besides I finished my first R/C plane a few months ago and i have read the instructions for radios very carfully, It doesn't say anything about different servos for different applications. Also, Manufacturers generally make the things idoit proof if the servos are different then they should come with some kind of a warning label on them. my 2cents Ameet Savant "Jerry Mahurin" cc: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters 06/21/2002 08:36 AM Walt, I have a foxhole we can share if the Lurk mode fails....;-) Anyway, I beg to differ with you on the types of R/C servos in that there are two types....positional and self centering.... Why else would they market two with that being the only diffrence.... I don't think you could hook up a throttle servo to the receiver in the aileron port. I do agree with you on the boat servos. Before we found the mirror motors, we were going to use a sail winch servo. About $60.... As for cockpit control, you can use the switch out of the car, or just a simple DPDT center open rocker switch from Radio Shack. You only have two wires to deal with since you can change the direction of the motor by reversing the poles.... Please always jump in with your .02 cents worth. That's what this group is all about.... 'Sides you can always share our foxhole..... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:57:18 EDT WMartensJr@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:44:51 PM Eastern Daylight >Time, >jerrymahurin@charter.net writes: > > >> Having built a lot of R/C model airplanes; I am very >>familiar with the model >> servos.... There are positional ones that stay where you >>put them - used >> for >> throttle and trim in modles. And then there are the >>centering ones used >> generally for control surfaces. >> > > > >Actually it isn't the servos that are positional. The >control reactions youa >re describing are setup on the transmitter. > >Anyoen considering using an r/c servo would be well >advised to look into >large geared servos used on r/c sailboats though. They >are much larger >servos with very significant torque values certainly >capable of handling a >small trim tab on a full size aircraft. I know of a few >instances where >people have done just that. One was on a Rutan LongEZ >and another was on a >high wing, can't remember the type. > >Unfortunately it was many years ago and I do not have >pictures. But, with >advances in small electric motor designs and the way r/c >coreless motors have >improved I think this would be a good way to set up an >electric trim. Set up >a pot to adjust from within the cockpit wherever you >like. Motor position is >infinitely adjustable and cost is minimal. > >Lurk mode back on. > >Walt Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:17:23 EDT To: jerrymahurin@charter.net From: WMartensJr@aol.com CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters Message-ID: --part1_bf.221b46d2.2a44d5c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/21/2002 9:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerrymahurin@charter.net writes: > Anyway, I beg to differ with you on the types of R/C > servos in that there are two types....positional and self > centering.... Why else would they market two with that > being the only diffrence.... I don't think you could hook > up a throttle servo to the receiver in the aileron port. Jerry, With all my R/C equipment in the house I probably have over fifty servos and none of them are self centering without input from a control on the transmitter. Throttle control is ratcheted in the control stick itself on the transmitter whereas rudder, aileron and elevator have a spring return mechanism installed. Every transmitter I've had the misfortune to need to work on has had some mechanical or electromechanical centering device in the transmitter. They are all interchangeable from control surfaces to throttle. There are some less expensive (read less features) radio systems available that are basically switched servos as you describe. Tap it once and it goes right, left, more throttle, less, you get the idea. None of those are even worth considering for any aircraft that I would actually ride in. Now, that being said, the newest high dollar servos have adjustable centers. This aids installation in cramped fuselage structures and allows you to adjust the range of throw to suit your needs. These are really too expensive for my budget and mostly unnecessary when there are already servo reversing controls, trim controls and centering controls on even the most basic transmitters nowadays. It's just not cost effective to produce servos that have additional features like self centering as it adds weight and size to the servo. Both bad things. You guys think we're anal about weight reduction on a KR try what some guys get into with R/C. Big dollar expense accounts! If you have a market source of self centering and ratchetable servos that are designed for specific throttle and control surface inputs I'd be most curious to see them and learn something new. They must be designed for some more specialized use than I have encountered. Looking at the newest Tower Hobbies catalog arrived in the mail today and no listings for any self centering or not servos. Just regular old coreless, w/bearings, w/d bearings etc. And to think I used to have to build them myself from old ACE kits. Still have them too. :) BTW, I've been checking in on your site pretty regularly. The "Wannabe" as you call it appears to be coming along nicely. I'm interested in seeing how those seats come out and how comfortable they are. And I always liked the fixed tail dragger better than the retract in a KR anyway. Walt PS: Thinking twice about staying in lurk mode. :) --part1_bf.221b46d2.2a44d5c3_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:23:38 -0400 To: asavant@notes.state.ne.us, "KRnet" From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> RC servos and other matters Message-ID: Ameet, When I am wrong, I will be the first to 'fess up. And I'm (was) wrong on the servos; and you are correct. It has been ten years since I have built a R/C plane, so I was working from memory. They say when you get old, you lose three things. First is your memory..... and I can't remember the other two. I still like the mirror motor for the trim tab though... Go to our web site http://kr-builder.org and take a look at the mirror motor(s) assembly cut in half..... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com I On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:15:45 -0500 asavant@notes.state.ne.us wrote: > >If you hold a rudder control full left and don't let it >go. The control >surface remains there. The only thing different for the >throttle is that >you don't have to hold it physically, it simply stays >there because of the >type of control in the Tx. > >Besides I finished my first R/C plane a few months ago >and i have read the >instructions for radios very carfully, It doesn't say >anything about >different servos for different applications. Also, >Manufacturers generally >make the things idoit proof if the servos are different >then they should >come with some kind of a warning label on them. > >my 2cents > >Ameet Savant > > > > > > > "Jerry Mahurin" > > > WMartensJr@aol.com > > rter.net> cc: > "KRnet" > > Subject: > Re: KR> RC servos and other matters > > 06/21/2002 08:36 > > > AM > > > > > > > > > > > > >Walt, > >I have a foxhole we can share if the Lurk mode >fails....;-) > >Anyway, I beg to differ with you on the types of R/C >servos in that there are two types....positional and self >centering.... Why else would they market two with that >being the only diffrence.... I don't think you could >hook >up a throttle servo to the receiver in the aileron port. > >I do agree with you on the boat servos. Before we found >the mirror motors, we were going to use a sail winch >servo. About $60.... > >As for cockpit control, you can use the switch out of the >car, or just a simple DPDT center open rocker switch from >Radio Shack. You only have two wires to deal with since >you can change the direction of the motor by reversing >the >poles.... > >Please always jump in with your .02 cents worth. That's >what this group is all about.... 'Sides you can always >share our foxhole..... > > >Jerry Mahurin >Lugoff, SC >http://kr-builder.org >http://jerrymahurin.com > > >On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:57:18 EDT > WMartensJr@aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:44:51 PM Eastern Daylight >>Time, >>jerrymahurin@charter.net writes: >> >> >>> Having built a lot of R/C model airplanes; I am very >>>familiar with the model >>> servos.... There are positional ones that stay where you >>>put them - used >>> for >>> throttle and trim in modles. And then there are the >>>centering ones used >>> generally for control surfaces. >>> >> >> >> >>Actually it isn't the servos that are positional. The >>control reactions youa >>re describing are setup on the transmitter. >> >>Anyoen considering using an r/c servo would be well >>advised to look into >>large geared servos used on r/c sailboats though. They >>are much larger >>servos with very significant torque values certainly >>capable of handling a >>small trim tab on a full size aircraft. I know of a few >>instances where >>people have done just that. One was on a Rutan LongEZ >>and another was on a >>high wing, can't remember the type. >> >>Unfortunately it was many years ago and I do not have >>pictures. But, with >>advances in small electric motor designs and the way r/c >>coreless motors have >>improved I think this would be a good way to set up an >>electric trim. Set up >>a pot to adjust from within the cockpit wherever you >>like. Motor position is >>infinitely adjustable and cost is minimal. >> >>Lurk mode back on. >> >>Walt > >Jerry Mahurin >Lugoff, SC >http://kr-builder.org >http://jerrymahurin.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:48:05 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> gear and skins Message-ID: <20020621044805.1498.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> Paden, I know you'll get a lot of good answers to this inquiry, but, since I'm the only one up this late, I'll get mine in first. --- The Waldrens wrote: > 1. What's wrong with the KR retractable gear? > Seems like its less drag. > 1. It's ugly. 2. It's heavy. 3. People forget to put it down when landing. 4. It has been said to pop back up when you land or taxi. 5. It makes the plane sit VERY close to the ground. 6. It probably doesn't decrease drag any. Advantages are that it actually protects the plane pretty good if you do a wheels-up landing with an engine out. While wheels-down, tri-gear or fixed gear will dig in and flip you, the retracted gear provide a pretty nice surface to slide on. As long as the surface is not too hard and irregular. Some people think it looks better in flight. > 2. Should the wing stubs be reinforced so that a > guy could stand on them to get into the plane? > Maybe I missed that page, but it seems that one > layer of glass wouldn't be strong enough to stand > the weight. RIGHT! LOTS has been written on reinforcing the wing so you can walk on it. NO ONE stands or walks on a 'plans-built' wing, that I know of. Most who have plans-built planes enter by stepping directly from the ground to the seat, not always an easy task, especially since, by the time most of us get done building these things we are wearing Depends. So, you can reinforce the wing or put "No Step" signs on it. Frank Ross in San Antonio, TX Never flew one Never built one Never stood on the wing of one Still collecting parts for a KR-2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:58:45 -0400 To: phwaldren@jps.net From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> gear and skins Message-ID: <20020621.093006.-287085.0.virgnvs@juno.com> See below On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:42:43 -0700 "The Waldrens" writes: > 1. What's wrong with the KR retractable gear? Seems like its less > drag. It has a tendancy to fold up in rough fields. > 2. Should the wing stubs be reinforced so that a guy could stand on > them to get into the plane? Yes but be careful of the extra weight. Virg > Maybe I missed that page, but it seems that one layer of glass > wouldn't be strong enough to stand > the weight. > > Paden > Sacramento > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:13:27 +1000 To: "KR Net Listings" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: EA81 subaru URGENT Message-ID: <005a01c2190c$4a33b5c0$3096dccb@Matheson> ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C21960.1AA263C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable URGENT Decision Time I have found a EA81 Reduction drive 80 HP with all gear and radiator = etc,, 6 hours since Zero timed. 68 X 48 New wood prop. ( I know this is = a bit large but ways around that) Spinner new, total weight wet 127 KGs = ( 279 lbs ), taken out only to repower his plan with 150 HP.=20 Price I'll leave out but I can not pass it up. QUESTION I have a KR2, if I was to use wing tanks and not use the front deck = tank. How do you think weight and balance will=20 All comments welcome Phil matheson@dodo.com.au ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C21960.1AA263C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:27:57 -0500 To: "KR Net Listings" From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> EA81 subaru URGENT Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020621052757.008cf180@mail.midwest.net> >I have found a EA81 Reduction drive 80 HP with all gear and radiator etc, (snip) total weight wet 127 KGs ( 279 lbs ), taken out only to repower his plan with 150 HP. >Phil +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Phil, 280 pounds for 80 hp seems a terrible price to pay , whatever the cost!! You could probably get that from a VW for 100 less pounds and then you could take your mother-in-law flying with you. Well, o.k., more fuel then. :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:34:27 +1000 To: "KR Net Listings" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Fw: KR> EA81 subaru URGENT Message-ID: <007f01c21917$9ae905a0$3096dccb@Matheson> People are telling me that the EA81 80 HP gear drive is putting out 100 ++ HP Can this be confirmed ??????? Phil Matheson URGENT Decision Time I have found a EA81 Reduction drive 80 HP with all gear and radiator etc,, 6 hours since Zero timed. 68 X 48 New wood prop. ( I know this is a bit large but ways around that) Spinner new, total weight wet 127 KGs ( 279 lbs ), taken out only to repower his plan with 150 HP. Price I'll leave out but I can not pass it up. QUESTION I have a KR2, if I was to use wing tanks and not use the front deck tank. How do you think weight and balance will All comments welcome Phil matheson@dodo.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:04:05 -0700 (PDT) To: KR Net Listings From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: Fw: KR> EA81 subaru URGENT Message-ID: <20020621130405.16771.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Phil, I cannot speak to your weight and balance question specifically, but, there are MANY successful Subaru powered KRs flying in the US now. I think you could work it out. I can send you (off net) some photos of some of the ones I've seen, if you like. Frank Ross, San Antonio, Texas, USA --- Phillip Matheson wrote: > People are telling me that the EA81 80 HP gear drive > is putting out 100 ++ > HP > > Can this be confirmed ??????? > > > Phil Matheson > > > URGENT Decision Time > > I have found a EA81 Reduction drive 80 HP with all > gear and radiator etc,, 6 > hours since Zero timed. 68 X 48 New wood prop. ( I > know this is a bit large > but ways around that) Spinner new, total weight wet > 127 KGs ( 279 lbs ), > taken out only to repower his plan with 150 HP. > > Price I'll leave out but I can not pass it up. > > QUESTION > > I have a KR2, if I was to use wing tanks and not > use the front deck tank. > > How do you think weight and balance will > All comments welcome > > > > Phil > > matheson@dodo.com.au > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:23:32 -0500 To: From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: Re: KR> radio interferience Message-ID: <000001c2190d$78041d40$3b000a0a@oemcomputer> I used the Poly Fiber system when I covered my Renegade. It has three coats of aluminum filled paint over the cloth to shield the UV. I asked Poly Fiber if it would prevent my internal antenna from working and their answer was no. They were right. I am using a 1 watt handset and can communicate reliably for more than 20 miles. Take a portable f m radio and tune in your favorite music. Then stick the radio inside the fuselage. If you can still sing to the music and dance, your fuselage will allow your comm radio to work. The F M band is 88-108 Megahertz, and our radios are working on 108 to 126. There's not difference in the attentuation in the two bands. Jim Vance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audrey and Harold Woods" To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:57 AM Subject: KR> radio interferience Problem- will this aluminum additive interfere with the radio antenna inside or under the fibreglass? Have I created a hidden monster for myself ?Harold Woods. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:17:29 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> Use of belly boards (speed brakes) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020621051729.008b4c00@mail.midwest.net> At 10:10 AM 6/20/02 -0400, virgnvs@juno.com wrote: > Speed on the numbers and slips, Virg ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ That's the route I was going but decided if I was building my KR so I could fly it off grass (usually shorter than hard surface runways) I'd better have some additional drag through the flare to kill the float, even if the speeds were right. I added a belly board. A friend of mine has a 1400' strip with slight obstruction that I want to get into. The speed brake will hopefully help it to "plop" in like the Tripacer. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:41:05 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Duh........what day is it:-) Message-ID: OH, it's Friday so you have to suffer through more pics by Dana. I get a lot of private e-mails that say airplane building is airplane building so I keep on posting:-) My bad.............assembling. Remember, I got my wings at 2:00PM last Friday. This is a pic of the left wing yesterday at 4:30PM. I am doing both wings at the same time, so the right wing is in the same state of construction. I will be hanging these wings in their respective stands tomorrow and cleco on the skins. You don't build these airplanes with jigs anymore with the CNC pre punched holes. Each wing has 74 platenuts for various attachments (fuel tank, inspection covers, etc.) so that means 220 holes to be countersunk and 148 rivets (two don't get center countersinks). I could do one set of 30 per spar flange in about and hour and fifteen minutes. This spar also already has the threaded tiedown bracket and aileron brackets mounted. Can't wait to cleco on some skins. Better order the fuse. now, these wings are moving right along. http://rvflying.tripod.com/frwing.jpg On the right hand side of the bench you can see the four compartmentalized containers for everything from the smallest rivet to bolts to bushings to pitot tube. I've got these screwed to the bench so an earthquake (we had a 5.0 in KY two days ago) couldn't knock them off:-) We now return our regular KR programming:-) Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:15:45 -0400 To: rabel@cox-internet.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: <20020621.093006.-287085.2.virgnvs@juno.com> Engineer will have to make that determination. We have one on this net, go direct with him. Virg On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:21:28 -0500 "Robert Abel" writes: > I have been working on a new spar design which I feel is both lighter > and stronger than what everyone is now using. The question is, how > do I obtain the dimensions for the current spar and the average > weight? Also, is there a software program which will help me with > load calculations? My spar is 2"x8.125"x 96" and tapers to 2"x > 5.250". It weighs slightly over 16 lbs. but could be constructed > lighter, and it will support the weight of a Ford 4wd suspended from > its center without any visable signs of damage externally or > internally. Walking along the length of it without any flex would > be no problem as the truck barely flexes it. Just how strong does > a wing spar have to be anyway????? > > New @ this Robert > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:46:28 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: <20020621134628.21693.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> Robert, A good example of homebuilt all-glass spar is the Dragonfly. If you can get hold of 1. Dragonfly plans 2. Dragonfly video. You'll get a good idea of what could be done with an all-glass KR. I'm no engineer and would STRONGLY advise you consult one before ever putting anything like that together to actually fly. Sounds like fun though. I will try to get you some weight numbers later on, though. Frank Ross in San Antonio, TX > On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:21:28 -0500 "Robert Abel" > > writes: > > I have been working on a new spar design which I > feel is both lighter > > and stronger than what everyone is now using. > The question is, how > > do I obtain the dimensions for the current spar > and the average > > weight? Also, is there a software program which > will help me with > > load calculations? My spar is 2"x8.125"x 96" and > tapers to 2"x > > 5.250". It weighs slightly over 16 lbs. but > could be constructed > > lighter, and it will support the weight of a Ford > 4wd suspended from > > its center without any visable signs of damage > externally or > > internally. Walking along the length of it > without any flex would > > be no problem as the truck barely flexes it. > Just how strong does > > a wing spar have to be anyway????? > > > > New @ this Robert __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:02:46 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: The 'Ezes and Quickies all use all 'glass spars. Having built all three types (wood, glass and metal) it seems that the metal is actually the lightest.... Having said that; the spars that 'suffers most' are on sailplanes and nearly all of those are now using glass. You might explore that area. They are building a glass spar that is reinforced with carbon rods. If you are interested; get back to me offline and I'll look up some URLs with a lot of info... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Frank Ross wrote: >Robert, >A good example of homebuilt all-glass spar is the >Dragonfly. If you can get hold of >1. Dragonfly plans >2. Dragonfly video. >You'll get a good idea of what could be done with an >all-glass KR. >I'm no engineer and would STRONGLY advise you consult >one before ever putting anything like that together to >actually fly. >Sounds like fun though. >I will try to get you some weight numbers later on, >though. >Frank Ross in San Antonio, TX >> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:21:28 -0500 "Robert Abel" >> >> writes: >> > I have been working on a new spar design which I >> feel is both lighter >> > and stronger than what everyone is now using. >> The question is, how >> > do I obtain the dimensions for the current spar >> and the average >> > weight? Also, is there a software program which >> will help me with >> > load calculations? My spar is 2"x8.125"x 96" and >> tapers to 2"x >> > 5.250". It weighs slightly over 16 lbs. but >> could be constructed >> > lighter, and it will support the weight of a Ford >> 4wd suspended from >> > its center without any visable signs of damage >> externally or >> > internally. Walking along the length of it >> without any flex would >> > be no problem as the truck barely flexes it. >> Just how strong does >> > a wing spar have to be anyway????? >> > >> > New @ this Robert > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:01:02 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: I remember reading about a beam made by wrapping steel wire around wooden spars. The cross section looks like: O / I \ / I \ / I \ O====I====O \ I / \ I / \ I / O Where the "I", "=" and "O" sign are are the wooden surface and the "\" and "/" are the steel wire. This structure was claimed to handle a tremendous amount of load despite weight pratically nothing. A bridge was made using this structure (balsa wood) to support a Tank! (At least that is how I remember it). I can't remember the website. But the point is that you could make a stronger spar in the same space. I haven't heard anyone use this technology anywhere let alone airplanes! If some one finds out which website this was let me know. Ameet PS - if you can't see the structure very well, copy this email into word or some such editor and change to font to a monospaced one (Courier, Couries New are good examples of monospaced fonts) "Robert Abel" et.com> cc: Subject: KR> spar dimensions and weights 06/20/2002 08:21 PM I have been working on a new spar design which I feel is both lighter and stronger than what everyone is now using. The question is, how do I obtain the dimensions for the current spar and the average weight? Also, is there a software program which will help me with load calculations? My spar is 2"x8.125"x 96" and tapers to 2"x 5.250". It weighs slightly over 16 lbs. but could be constructed lighter, and it will support the weight of a Ford 4wd suspended from its center without any visable signs of damage externally or internally. Walking along the length of it without any flex would be no problem as the truck barely flexes it. Just how strong does a wing spar have to be anyway????? New @ this Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:11:24 -0400 To: "KRNET" From: "Ronald Freiberger" Subject: RE: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: How could this person have an opinion about his design being "stronger and lighter" if he doesn't have current dimenios to know how much his comparison model weighs, or what it's strengths are. This is yet another example of an uninformed opinion. As somone said, "Opinions are like a_____; everyone has one of their own, and nobody wants to look at yours." Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:01:26 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "Bob Farmer" Subject: Re: KR> spar dimensions and weights Message-ID: <001201c21966$cf5e0840$6b5e62d8@oemcomputer> what is a dimenios? Bob Farmer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Freiberger" To: "KRNET" Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:11 PM Subject: RE: KR> spar dimensions and weights > How could this person have an opinion about his design being "stronger and > lighter" if he doesn't have current dimenios to know how much his comparison > model weighs, or what it's strengths are. This is yet another example of an > uninformed opinion. > > As somone said, "Opinions are like a_____; everyone has one of their own, > and nobody wants to look at yours." > > Ron Freiberger... > mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:01:05 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> Fiberglass on fuselage/epoxy Message-ID: There are so many epoxy systems out there that it is hard for a newbie to comprehend. My question to you all is: Given similar physical properties are different "brands" interchangeable? I have been a little inclined towards using West System (I am learing layups and vacuum bagging) mainly because of the comparative easy of dispensing and use. Thanks Ameet Savant larry flesner net> cc: Subject: Re: KR> Fiberglass on fuselage/epoxy 06/20/2002 10:21 PM >But what then ,is the thin type of cloth you are using?? >Phil Matheson. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I used "Deck Cloth" (Wick's catalog, 2001, page 19, ). Wick's discription; 50" width, 1.45 oz. per sq. yd. threads per inch: 60 length x 47 width. Commonly used over wood or plywood or last layer of fiberglass lay up giving the surface a fine weave for finishing. This cloth has the finish that I'd compare to a silk stocking. I'm "guessing" the deck cloth saves more than it's weight and the bit extra resin by having to use less fill to fill the weave of the KR cloth over the foam and I'm also "guessing" it's as light as anything else you will use to seal/finish the plywood. I'd bet it is the same stuff that Bingelis found at the hobby shop or something very close. If you lay it on over your wet glass lay up and dry brush it, it will get about half the resin it needs from the KR cloth. Pull any wrinkles out to the edges. I ran some real quick numbers and I'm estimating that the cloth and an equal amount of resin would add 1.5 pounds to BOTH outer wing panels. How much fill will you use on the KR cloth for both wings, top and bottom? After Safety Poxy II was discontinued, I tried the epoxy that Wick's was replacing it with and had some bad reactions on my hands, even wearing gloves. I next switched to West Systems 105/206 because a friend had some left over and had the pumps. I am more than happy with the results. The pumps are the only way to go. Less than $20 from Wick's. One pump from each can and stir. No scales, no guessing , no worry, and for me no problems. Speaking of pumps, I have a $250 pump with a 100:47 (I think. It's the old Safety Poxy rato) mix and it is not the adjustable kind. Can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't trash it. I've not seen any other epoxies with that mix. Larry Flesner --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:56:24 -0400 To: "KRnet \(E-mail\)" From: "Bob Lee" Subject: RC servos Message-ID: <000001c2193c$3277cf40$040c0b0a@cheryl> KRnetters, I've been into RC airplanes for more years than I'd like to admit. One thing that you must admit is that there are some huge models flying in competition. A fellow at our local club has a 1/3 scale Sukoi that he flies in national competition. It is capable of keeping up with most KRs that are flying. There is a class of RC servos called 1/4 scale that are built for the large models. Using these higher output servos as well has having two of them connected in tandem can provides more than enough power to use as a trim tab control in a KR. I attended a forum at Oshkosh in the early 90s and there was an excellent presentation by a fellow who's name escapes me currently. He presented a control circuit for RC servos that could be built from parts readily available at "The Shack". I took home a wiring diagram and went to work. I kept working on the design for a three axis trim system and ended up with an autopilot. I have some documentation on my website that explains what I've done. I bench tested the autopilot for 200 continuous hours using it to control the flight path of a model by controlling the rudder to maintain flight path. A computer cooling fan provided the thrust so the rudder could control direction. The model was suspended from the ceiling on a single cable so it could yaw at will. I sat an oscillating fan in front of it to provide a gust situation to push the model off course. After 200 hours of operation the model was still pointed exactly where it was at the beginning of the test. Section 4.1 of my operations manual (http://flyboybob.com/kr2/n52bl%20operating%20manualA02.doc) describes the theory of operation and controls of the autopilot. The autopilot tabs at the bottom of the wiring diagram (http://flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0001_files/wd0001_frames.htm) will show the circuits of my autopilot/trim system. The original schematic that I got at Oshkosh in the early 90s (http://flyboybob.com/reference_info.htm#Autopilot%20design%20schematic) shows a simple op-amp circuit that I have converted. I haven't flown it yet so this is still just theory, however all my testing indicates that it will provide me a satisfactory solution, your mileage may vary. Regards, Bob Lee _____________________________________ 90% done only 50% to go! e-mail: mailto:bob@flyboybob.com web site: http://flyboybob.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) To: "KRnet \(E-mail\)" From: Dennis Mingear Subject: RC SERVOS Message-ID: <20020621162133.60423.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.epanorama.net/documents/motor/rcservos.html http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/servo10v.html Here are a couple of sites that show you how they work and how to use them. Old KR newsletters show several circuits that have been used in the past for employing rc servos as trim motors. The servos come in every size imaginable, but the same simple control circuit works for all of them. Type rc servos or robotics into your search engine there are dozens of ways to use these things. Hobby Lobby carries lots of choices for experimentation. Dennis ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:31:48 -0400 To: "Ron Eason" , From: "Ronald Freiberger" Subject: RE: KR> On Star Services [ GPS and cell phone] Message-ID: It's in my vehicle, my second one. The service is not worth the charge, unless you get lost a lot or like ordering services from the most expensive vendor. If you're stuck in a snowy ditch, like my friend was, they'll send a towing service from far off , to be there in a few hours, versus calling a local guy to come out and immediately extract to vehicle. Check their cell phone prices. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Ron Eason [mailto:ron@jrl-engineering.com] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:14 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> OnStar Services [ GPS and cell phone] GM just announced that they have come to an agreement with RiverPark Inc. to provide OnStar equipment for installation in RV's. This service include: nationwide cell phone, stolen vehicle location, roadside assistance,remote diagnostics, route support, accident reporting. The web site is www.riverparkinc.com OnStar is not on the web site yet, but this has potential for us Recreational Flyers also. The electronic equipment can be purchased form River Park complete with sensors and installed in a aircraft it's 12 vdc. It's 24/7 personal services at a push of a button. [ Have you seen the Batman commercials?] I know some of you don't know what this is but I do and it will someday be in alot of cars, RV's and aircraft. Other stuff is also sold on the River Park site also. KRRon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:48:12 -0700 To: "Ron Eason" From: Robert X. Cringely Cc: Subject: Re: KR> OnStar Services [ GPS and cell phone] Message-Id: <0E42A857-853F-11D6-B387-0003935B39BC@cringely.com> --Apple-Mail-1--870147964 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I ran this by a friend who is an engineer at OnStar. Here's what he had to say: "Whether or not it's legal doesn't really matter if it doesn't work. Riverpark is only selling the components to RV manufacturers for installation in RV's as they build them out or refit them. They won't sell you the components for you to do whatever you want with them. At least, that's what I've been told. Check out the press release on http://www.onstar.com/visitors/html/pr_pressroom.htm OnStar used to sell aftermarket equipment, but there were too many problems with installation, so now all installation is done at the dealer or at the factory. What it comes down to is if we don't know how to talk to what you put the unit in, you will have very limited service. For example, the embedded phone talks to the audio system via the vehicle command bus. OnStar services have been proposed for many things besides cars, so what you want may not be too far away." Bob On Thursday, June 20, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Ron Eason wrote: > GM just announced that they have come to an agreement with RiverPark > Inc. to > provide OnStar equipment for installation in RV's. This service > include: > nationwide cell phone, stolen vehicle location, roadside > assistance,remote > diagnostics, route support, accident reporting. The web site is > www.riverparkinc.com > OnStar is not on the web site yet, but this has potential for us > Recreational Flyers also. The electronic equipment can be purchased > form > River Park complete with sensors and installed in a aircraft it's 12 > vdc. > It's 24/7 personal services at a push of a button. [ Have you seen the > Batman commercials?] > I know some of you don't know what this is but I do and it will someday > be > in alot of cars, RV's and aircraft. > Other stuff is also sold on the River Park site also. > KRRon > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > --Apple-Mail-1--870147964-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:18:00 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "rfarmer" Subject: composite material source Message-ID: <002a01c21947$99111080$e95b62d8@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C21926.110B4C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a link to a composite material source http://www.fibreglast.com/ = I have never bought from them so this is just FYI. Bob Farmer rfarmer@naxs.net ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C21926.110B4C80-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:12:05 -0500 (CDT) To: rfarmer From: Steven Eberhart cc: krnet Subject: Re: KR> composite material source Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, rfarmer wrote: > Here is a link to a composite material source http://www.fibreglast.com/ I have never bought from them so this is just FYI. > > Bob Farmer > rfarmer@naxs.net > I have bought from them in the past. THey are a little pricey but have a lot of items that are hard to find. Most of the things I have purchased are vacuum bagging accessories. THey also carry nomex honeycomb and several fairly good, but very boring, videos on mold making and vacuum bagging. Gelcoate, epoxy pigments, vacuum bagging fittings, vacuum gauges, etc are some of the things I have bought from them. Bookmark the site for the times when you need some of the more off the wall items. They also have a technical staff that is eager to answer composite questions. I would rate them one of the good guys. I am building an R/C model of my RV-7 that I have under construction. The fuselage is vacuum bagged carbon fiber. I used their red epoxy pigment in the epoxy surface of my mold and my vacuum pump is plumbed (sp?) with fittings and gauges from them. The carbon fiber came from Wicks but I will be using Mark Langfords carbon source for future orders. Steve Eberhart RV-7A - just a whole bunch of aluminum, in various states of attachment, filling up my half of the garage. Some of it looks like it might belong on the back end of an airplane. The rest looks like it might, some day, help hold it up in the air.... but what do I know. N14SE reserved ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:58:22 +0200 To: "KR MAIL" From: "Eric Evezard" Subject: Reinforcing stubs Message-ID: <004e01c21955$bdb58660$57ce07c4@bonzabay> ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C21966.60CCFA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Netters, No ways can I get into my 2S one step from the ground.I installed two = fibreglass "patches" of two layers of 10 oz.bid.One over the dragspar = ,one over the mainspar.Each are 10 ins X 10 ins.I then added smaller non = slip patches of coarse emery cloth ,all this of course on the pilpts = side as my canpoy opens sideways.To get in simply----right foot on = dragspar,then left on mainspar,lift right and step onto seat.In between = spars of course is a no go area---no step.The patches are as close as = practicable to the fuselage.The ridges formed by the glass can be = feathered in so as to be unseen.I made the the non slip areas just = bigger than a shoe sole. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Eric Evezard, South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C21966.60CCFA80-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:48:33 -0500 To: From: "Robert Abel" Subject: spar design Message-ID: <001e01c21965$0964fdc0$6401a8c0@coxinternet.com> ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2193B.1907C660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Asavant: That is exactly the spar design which I am referring to!!! I can't = find/remember the website either but I have the original drawings = though.... If you can find it again, PLEASE, ...send it to me!! = I'll do likewise!! Robert Abel ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2193B.1907C660-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:52:58 -0500 To: From: "Robert Abel" Subject: response to Freiberger Message-ID: <002f01c21965$ab528b20$6401a8c0@coxinternet.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C2193B.B6D3E4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry to have offended you,...but if you will re-read my letter; it was = a question and not a statement of fact. My desire was to obtain the = needed dimensions in order to make that determination! BTW,...your is = showing.... Robt. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C2193B.B6D3E4A0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************