From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 8 Aug 2002 21:28:54 -0000 Issue 493 Date: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:29 PM krnet Digest 8 Aug 2002 21:28:54 -0000 Issue 493 Topics (messages 11946 through 11975): Re: WAF's / Comments Please. 11946 by: Phillip Matheson 11959 by: Donald Reid Re: Forums 11947 by: Alex Swavely 11948 by: Dennis Mingear Re: blunt trailing edges. 11949 by: John and Janet Martindale Heavy Tail plane and Elevator 11950 by: Phillip Matheson Re: blunt trailing edges--Specifications 11951 by: Donald Blankenship KRNet or BullShit Net 11952 by: Daniel Heath 11953 by: Phillip Matheson 11954 by: Rick Wilson 11955 by: JIM VANCE 11957 by: Ed Janssen 11960 by: Piunti, James A. Re: KR Newsletter - Deadline 11956 by: Dana Overall Re: blunt trailing edges/control surface flutter 11958 by: Donald Reid Re: 2 stroke engine 11961 by: idrawtobuild Burning and Buying Used Aircraft 11962 by: Donald Blankenship 11963 by: Schurr, Larry 11964 by: Piunti, James A. 11965 by: Schurr, Larry 11974 by: gleone Re: KRNet or B.S.Net 11966 by: Donald Blankenship Re: Monowheel 11967 by: Hennie.van.Rooyen.honeywell.com Attention KR Builders/lawers 11968 by: Robert Stone 11969 by: Dana Overall Announcement 11970 by: Mark Jones 11971 by: Steven Eberhart 11972 by: Piunti, James A. Re: Attention KR Builders/lawyers 11973 by: Robert Stone horiz. stab incidence 11975 by: Oscar Zuniga Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:59:14 +1000 To: "krnet listing" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> WAF's / Comments Please. Message-ID: <002401c23e98$58a11ce0$0100a8c0@LocalHost> Larry wrote: Are you actually building a KR design? ------------------------- I hope so, I picked up a incomplete KR2, that just happened to have - Daihl Wing skins and tri gear. - 2/3 complete, but Canopy needs replacing, turtle deck has been modified to take wider canopy. and very rouhg - engine mount fitted - engine cowls. you can see my KR on Mark Jones site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html Hope this helps fill in the gaps, and explains where I'm up to. Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines at; www.vw-engines.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:23:09 -0400 To: "krnet" From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> WAF's / Comments Please. Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020808091758.00a37a50@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2420335==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:15 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, Phillip Matheson wrote: >I'm getting very confuesed with the waf ISSUE. I have been talking to a chap >in Sydney who is flying a Kr2SS under U/Light rego, it has ? 27 feet w/span >to meet the lower stall speed. he tells me that my standard Kr2 with the >moulded extended wing skins should have larger WAF bolts 7/16", and to weld >125 4130 brackets to the end of the main spar WAF 's to make them twice as >thick. and weld only on three points. Based on some of the calculations that I have done, I would say that this is incorrect. The metal-to-metal loads (WAF-to-bolt-to-WAF) are not the weakest point of the joint. It is the bolt-to-spar cap that is the weak link. The other reason that this is incorrect is because of the relative stain rates of the metal and the spar caps. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_2420335==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:33:47 -0700 (PDT) To: From: Alex Swavely Subject: Re: KR> Forums Message-ID: I run a forum website (my own server!) for my automotive hobby (http://www.ford-fox.org) and would be willing to host a forum on it if there were enough interest for it. I despise popup/popunder ads and absolutely refuse to use them. The only time a new window pops up is if you click a link that directs you offsite. On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Rick Wilson wrote: > Hi, I went to a few of the forums to see if I liked it > and there was so much advertising there that I > couldn't read posts for closing advertising pages. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:34:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Langford , KRNET@mailinglists.org From: Dennis Mingear Subject: Re: KR> Forums Message-ID: <20020808053432.37431.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> Please leave it like it is! I enjoy the diversity that thrives in the KR community. There is more original thinking going on here than in most places on the net. Dennis "the Menace" Mingear --- Mark Langford wrote: > I could set up another list pretty quickly, > identical to this one but named > "KRmods" or something similar. The only thing is > that I'll bet some folks > would start posting stuff to both lists just to make > sure they got the word > out to everybody, actually leading to more mail for > those on both lists, so > maybe it's OK like it is. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:14:17 +1000 To: From: "John and Janet Martindale" Subject: Re: KR> blunt trailing edges. Message-ID: <000801c23eaf$fbf2fdc0$efde12d2@m1g0x7> I seem to recall reading that the vortices formed by a blunt trailing edge also assist in interuppting the tendency for flutter to develop at higher speeds, that is, a sharp trailing edge can promote flutter if other less tangible features (lack of mass balance, loose fittings, sloppy controls etc.) are present. John and Janet Martindale 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA ph: 61 2 66584767 ----- Original Message ----- From: Audrey and Harold Woods To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:32 AM Subject: KR> blunt trailing edges. Take a look at the trailing edge of the GAW-1 It is about 1/2 " thick. If you make a simple drawing of the trailing edge , draw in the rotating vortex of air that will exist in this region. It will rotate such that the top of the vortex moves downward along the flat trailing edge. When the wing nears the stall , instead of the separation occuring at the trailing edge, this downward motion tends to hold the air onto the top of the trailing edge longer, thus delaying the stall. This makes it a little safer to operate the wing near the stall. Harold Woods. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:33:33 +1000 To: "KR Net Listings" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Heavy Tail plane and Elevator Message-ID: <000a01c23ebf$098e6dc0$4b97dccb@Matheson> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C23F12.7B77B880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could I please ask anyone who has completed their Elevator and Rudder to = please weight them, and let me know what the weight is. The elevator on my Kr ( Spar length 71") seems very heavy The trim tab has been cut out and the top glass skin is very thick ( = 3/16") Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 See our engines at:=20 http://www.vw-engines.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C23F12.7B77B880-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 04:33:21 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Re: KR> blunt trailing edges--Specifications Message-ID: <20020808093321.10359.qmail@mail.com> The problem with so many messages on the krnet is that topics that can seriously put people's lives at stake are addressed constantly and in a very casual manner. I read Mr. Wood's messages, because he definitely is a credible source of much builder information. Unfortunately, he appears to have a level of knowledge on the topic of "blunt" trailing edges that may be difficult to pass on to others. Attempting to adequately fill in the innumerable gaps in critical information provided by very credible sources would be impossible. So for such an apparently simple thing as trailing edges, I want to note that what has been presented from any and all sources on blunt trailing edges would lead many to build it incorrectly. Blunt trailing edges are not worth it, but at some point the following bare minimum information has been extracted from an extensive article from B. Wainfan, "Wind Tunnel," Kitplanes Magazine, December 1991: 1) If someone uses a trailing edge that is other than the reliable straight and pointy, then a trailing edge with two very sharp corners is the alternative design. The very sharp corners are required or else the air flow will initially try to follow the curvature then break off prematurely in the opposite direction. That can translate to premature stall and very weird and hazardous hinge moment behavior of control surfaces. 2) The height of the trailing edge from top corner to bottom corner is not supposed to exceed one-half of one percent of the chord length. That means the very maximum height for the inboard portion of the wing would be less than half an inch. Where it may matter more outboard and on control surfaces, a half an inch height would be way too much. Finally, for the sake of anyone who may be busy hacking away at their trailing edges, please re-review all of the messages that have been sent out on the topic of "blunt" trailing edges. To date, other than people saying they saw it on this plane and that, no one has presented any quantitative comparison to show what benefit, marginal or otherwise, anyone would derive from it. At least if they're going to espouse a mod from plans, they could provide some phone numbers and e-mail contacts for designers they have spoken with or the titles of AIAA papers they've read on the subject. Jeese, you guys and ladies that know something have a particular responsibility for your expressed opinions, supporting info and lack thereof. It would be nice sometimes if you just said "I don't really know everything required." The rest of us know how to handle advice from the wackos. And please note that there may be more standard requirements or better alternatives for such trailing edges than are presented here. --Don Blankenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audrey and Harold Woods" Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:32:38 -0400 To: Subject: KR> blunt trailing edges. > Take a look at the trailing edge of the GAW-1 It is about 1/2 " thick. If you make a simple drawing of the trailing edge , draw in the rotating vortex of air that will exist in this region. It will rotate such that the top of the vortex moves downward along the flat trailing edge. When the wing nears the stall , instead of the separation occuring at the trailing edge, this downward motion tends to hold the air onto the top of the trailing edge longer, thus delaying the stall. This makes it a little safer to operate the wing near the stall. > Harold Woods. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/02 > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 05:55:16 -0700 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: If I were a new person just signing on to this mailing list at this time, I would really have to go back and check to make sure that I was in the right place. I would think that the internet backbone had a slipped disk. I would not have read one small dribble of valuable information in the messages that have been spewing forth. I have come to realize over time, that this does have a certain cycle to it and eventually, we all will get back to the business of building real KRs. Maybe I am in the minority here, in that I really don't care about all the highly technical jargon that is thrown around, sometimes, I think, so we all will know how smart you are. Most of this information is useless to me, especially when the subjects that are being discussed have very little, if anything, to do with building and flying a KR. You see, I am just an average person, with average skills and average resources, trying to do something that is not so average. Doing this thing is difficult enough without adding aeronautical engineering and design into the mix. I need to know how to make a windshield for a KR2. If anyone has, knows how to, or even knows where it is documented, now that is something that I would really like to read about. There is a balance between building to the plans and innovation that we must reach if we ever really intend to fly these things. As Jerry would say, "Keep on Keepin on", but I don't have a fox hole to crawl into, so bring it on bubba. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:09:24 +1000 To: "Daniel Heath" , "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: <002f01c23ec3$acf86520$4b97dccb@Matheson> I have not been a member for very long. But have had some very good info and support from some every helpful people. To all these people I say thank you. But I have dreaded turning on the computer in the recent week or so. Can we get back to giving and receiving info on this fine aircraft. Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 See our engines at: http://www.vw-engines.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 04:22:43 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Rick Wilson Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: <20020808112243.15815.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Amen Daniel, It couldn't have been said better. Rick Wilson. rwdw2002@yahoo.com --- Daniel Heath wrote: > If I were a new person just signing on to this > mailing list at this time, I > would really have to go back and check to make sure > that I was in the right > place. I would think that the internet backbone had > a slipped disk. I > would not have read one small dribble of valuable > information in the > messages that have been spewing forth. > > I have come to realize over time, that this does > have a certain cycle to it > and eventually, we all will get back to the business > of building real KRs. > > Maybe I am in the minority here, in that I really > don't care about all the > highly technical jargon that is thrown around, > sometimes, I think, so we all > will know how smart you are. Most of this > information is useless to me, > especially when the subjects that are being > discussed have very little, if > anything, to do with building and flying a KR. You > see, I am just an > average person, with average skills and average > resources, trying to do > something that is not so average. Doing this thing > is difficult enough > without adding aeronautical engineering and design > into the mix. > > I need to know how to make a windshield for a KR2. > If anyone has, knows how > to, or even knows where it is documented, now that > is something that I would > really like to read about. > > There is a balance between building to the plans and > innovation that we must > reach if we ever really intend to fly these things. > > As Jerry would say, "Keep on Keepin on", but I don't > have a fox hole to > crawl into, so bring it on bubba. > > > Daniel R. Heath > > See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org > > See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release > Date: 2/19/2002 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:47:25 -0500 To: "kr net" From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: <002201c23ed1$a1d87640$3b000a0a@oemcomputer> I want to offer my support to Dan Heath's message. I'm here to learn how to build a better KR. Sometimes my questions are naive, because I don't have the experience. Often, my questions about design or building techniques are either ignored, or given a flippant useless answer. I joined the net to share my experiences ABOUT BUILDING AIRPLANES, and to learn from others. Let's tolerate our differences and help each other. Jim Vance Vance@ClaflinWildcats.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Heath" To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:55 AM Subject: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:56:10 -0500 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: <001d01c23eda$f851d3a0$0200a8c0@dad> I've been a KRnetter for around 7 years, I think. I've learned to kinda "go with the flow". I've resigned myself to take a quick look at most postings, but, like many of the "old-timers", I enjoy and value most information from just a small handful of builders. I make judicious use of the delete key. The only thing that bothers me is profanity, "flame-throwing", and off the KR topic posts. With the help of "net-mom(s)" we've managed to do a pretty good job of distancing them from the list. Again, to the new guys, first CHECK THE ARCHIVES on any KR topic you wish. You just won't believe the amount of good info you'll find there to help answer your questions. If not satisfied, then post a question or comment. After lurking around for a while, you'll soon start picking your favorite posters and pretty much ignore the rest. Ed Janssen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Matheson" To: "Daniel Heath" ; "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:09 AM Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net > I have not been a member for very long. But have had some very good info and > support from some every helpful people. To all these people I say thank you. > > But I have dreaded turning on the computer in the recent week or so. > > Can we get back to giving and receiving info on > this fine aircraft. > > > > Phil Matheson > matheson@dodo.com.au > 61 3 58833588 > See our engines at: > http://www.vw-engines.com/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:57:42 -0500 To: From: "Piunti, James A." Subject: RE: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net Message-ID: <9499A53A0164444B9B9713923DE2644501E24E6B@ex0103.firm.kutakrock.com> I'm going to concur with the majority of the opinions I've seen so far on this topic. And as a very new person to the list, I may be better able to offer you the 'new person's perspective' on the topic. I am not an aeronautical engineer - I want to build an airplane. And that alone is reason to be here since one of the selling points of the plan is the fact that it 'can be built by first-time builders'. As Daniel says, most of the highly technical information is useless to me, and I suspect, to most people who are here to get practical information. I'd much rather hear information such as 'here's a great place to get 6-oz cloth' rather than 'the x coefficient of the y parameter is incubent upon the laminar flow of the..." You get the idea... :-) Not that information of this type isn't useful to *someone*, but probably not the majority of the list. Having run lists before, I know the degree of dedication it takes to keep one running efficiently. I don't think the answer is to divide the list into two - a techie and a non-techie list. That doubles the workload of a presumably overworked host. But maybe we can combine the ideas of a List and a Forum by having a place where the highly technical stuff can be uploaded and perused by those interested. I don't know how involved a change that might be to the present software - so it's just a suggestion. Finally, this list is not even CLOSE to having as high a BQ (Bullshit Quotient) as some I've seen. I get the feeling that the vast majority of the posters do so out of a sincere desire to help and illuminate. I don't see a lot of the 'credential rattling' I've seen on other lists. Also, I don't think there's a problem of putting someone's life in danger by the information posted here. The very nature of the building process means that information posted TODAY is not likely to place anyone in danger NEXT WEEK. The vast majority of us will take YEARS to complete our projects, and we'll presumably be members of this list long enough to discern the quacks from the boffins - be able to separate the 'wheat from the chaff' as far as quality information. It's also interesting to me, that of the dozen or so private welcomes I received when I joined last week, the vast majority of them contained a "don't believe everything you read" disclaimer for the information presented. All were tastefully worded, with no names named, but there does appear to be a perception that untested and dangerous information is presented herein. But I don't think any of us are stupid - we all realize that we'll soon be placing our butts into a glued-together flying box traveling at 150mph at 8000 feet. *ANYONE* who takes *ANYTHING* they read here without a grain of salt and without further research...has a death wish. Just my take... > Jimmer < =20Omaha,NE ###################################################################### The information contained in this electronic mail transmission (including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally=20 privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended=20 recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are=20 hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone=20 (402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. =20 Thank you. ###################################################################### ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:59:58 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> KR Newsletter - Deadline Message-ID: Yep, I'll make this KR related:-) I wish our earlier efforts would have stirred enough interest to save such a valuable resource to the KR builder. Boy, after Daniel's post about BS (kinda sounded like one of my posts:-) posts, I was a little hesitant to post this. For all the builders out there who will not get the chance (not of their own doing) to benefit from the newsletter, I urge you to order the CD from Larry. It will be invaluable to you in your building process. Yes, I have seen notes on blunt trailing edges in prior newsletters, for example. Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com > > - "There is no monies left to >refund, everything related to the KR Newsletter was forwarded to Larry >Capps". > >Les Palmer (Palmer's Machine Shop (972) 241-4387) called and talked at >length with me about his conversations with Monte, and was very disturb at >Monte's unwillingness to refund his subscription balance or to forward his >balance on to me as suggested. I think Les used the term "Monte has >obfuscated with our funds hasn't he?". > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:16:52 -0400 To: "John and Janet Martindale" , From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> blunt trailing edges/control surface flutter Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020808085753.00a32970@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2042950==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:14 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, John and Janet Martindale wrote: >I seem to recall reading that the vortices formed by a blunt trailing edge >also assist in interuppting the tendency for flutter to develop at higher >speeds, that is, a sharp trailing edge can promote flutter if other less >tangible features (lack of mass balance, loose fittings, sloppy controls >etc.) are present. Flutter can be induced by vortex shedding. That is a fluid flow phenomenon where vortices are formed on both surfaces of a body in a flow field in a harmonic pattern. A vortex will form on one surface as the vortex on the other surface detaches from the surface and is swept downstream. The process repeats on alternate surfaces until something alters the flow field or the surface. Control surface flutter will occur when the frequency of the vortex shedding approaches the natural frequency of the control surface. If you have ever seen the movie of the Verizano Bridge (if I spelled that correctly) shaking itself to failure, then you know what vortex shedding will do. That is what caused the failure. A fat trailing edge will increase the likelihood of vortex shedding. There are reasons that a designer may want to use an airfoil with a fat trailing edge; most notably, to change control response/control force or for increased structural strength. --=====================_2042950==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:06:41 -0700 To: From: "idrawtobuild" Subject: Re: KR> 2 stroke engine Message-ID: <00ee01c23ef5$96328c80$6e13fea9@greg> Have you considered the 2Si engines. I'm using the 70hp w/ 3.06 PSRU & 68fp torque. It's going on my KR1. Greg Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:04 AM Subject: FW: KR> 2 stroke engine > Hi Bob, > > Now there's a man to my liking! > > Bob, I'll help you with pleasure. A point to remember: If you plan your KR2 > from day one for a two stroke engine, I'm convinced that you can built it to > have an empty weight of only 350lbs or so. This means that you could get > away with even less hp and the Rotax 503 or 582 might be a good choice as > they are far cheaper. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:30:45 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <20020808163047.47214.qmail@mail.com> A long time ago, I wondered how some excellent builders could possibly destroy the aircraft they built rather than sell them. Their aircraft often flew superbly and had no known defects, yet they for some reason had the audacity to chop them up rather than pass them on. On the flip side of the coin, I always wondered whether there was good sound advice you could give a poor soul who desperately wanted to buy someone else's work so they could jump in it and fly tomorrow. Many of the ideas being proliferated on this network are now showing why some people might not want to pass on their work and why others would never have the necessary time to research mods incorporated into the planes. The squared-off trailing edge mod is the perfect example of both. If the squared corners of the mod are ever painted over or rounded off by the 4th or 5th owners down the road, the original builder of the mod is legally liable, and deservedly so, for the owner's early demise. If a trailing edge insert or add-on ever goes "boing" and pops off in flight, the builder is liable and again, the pilot has worse problems to deal with. The blinders over my eyes have been removed. --Don Blankenship -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:29:41 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Schurr, Larry" Subject: RE: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: With the large base of users we have, perhaps someone could shed some light on this. Though I've heard many opinions on this liability issue both ways, I'm still not clear about one point: Though many *manufacturers* have been sued (some to extinction, sadly), has any homebuilder actually ever been either sued or lost in such a case? Now, in America, you can sue anyone for any reason any time, so the actual suit being brought to bear is not particulary worrisome. Rutan, it is rumored, was sued 28 times and won every time for the LongEZ. But has there been a homebuilder, as an individual, receive judgement against them? that anyone is aware of?? Larry > >The squared-off trailing edge mod is the perfect example of >both. If the squared corners of the mod are ever painted over >or rounded off by the 4th or 5th owners down the road, the >original builder of the mod is legally liable, and deservedly >so, for the owner's early demise. If a trailing edge insert or >add-on ever goes "boing" and pops off in flight, the builder >is liable and again, the pilot has worse problems to deal with. > >The blinders over my eyes have been removed. > >--Don Blankenship >-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:36:23 -0500 To: From: "Piunti, James A." Subject: RE: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <9499A53A0164444B9B9713923DE26445851240@ex0103.firm.kutakrock.com> Working for a large law firm, I can tell you that the fear of litigation is a powerful weapon. Even when the plaintiffs DON'T have (reasonable) grounds, just getting taken to court is an expensive enough proposition that most people will lose money - whether you're at fault or not. Ever wonder why a new bottom-of-the-line Cessna costs over $150,000, when we can BUILD a plane that outperforms it AND BUY A NEW HOUSE with the residual? Cessna has to pay their lawyers, that's why. MY (future) KR will be *landfill* before I ever sell it to another person. > Jimmer < =20Omaha,NE ###################################################################### The information contained in this electronic mail transmission (including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally=20 privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended=20 recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are=20 hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone=20 (402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. =20 Thank you. ###################################################################### ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:42:21 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Schurr, Larry" Subject: RE: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: Great!! You'll be able to look it up :-) So I'm a little shaky on this one... I've sold one or two as maybe others have done. And DonB. and you are likely right, we'd be maybe a little safer from our increasingly corrupt legal system. I just can't help but wonder not so much if it *could* happen but if it ever HAS? L. >-----Original Message----- >From: Piunti, James A. [mailto:James.Piunti@KutakRock.com] >Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 12:36 PM >To: krnet@mailinglists.org >Subject: RE: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft > > >Working for a large law firm, I can tell you that the fear of >litigation >is a powerful weapon. Even when the plaintiffs DON'T have (reasonable) >grounds, just getting taken to court is an expensive enough proposition >that most people will lose money - whether you're at fault or not. > >Ever wonder why a new bottom-of-the-line Cessna costs over $150,000, >when we can BUILD a plane that outperforms it AND BUY A NEW HOUSE with >the residual? Cessna has to pay their lawyers, that's why. > >MY (future) KR will be *landfill* before I ever sell it to another >person. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:54:37 -0500 To: "Schurr, Larry" From: gleone CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <3D52CC7D.14ADEA56@tritel.net> --------------7A8FC9DF2DF7FE255F61E468 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reason you can't buy plans for the VP-2 (two place Volksplane) is because someone built one, sold it, the new owner augured in and sued Bill Evans, the designer. No matter the village idiot flying it was not qualified in a conventional gear plane, it wasn't HIS fault, oh no, it was Bill's. Hence, he stopped selling plans for the VP-2. "Schurr, Larry" wrote: > With the large base of users we have, perhaps someone could shed some light > on this. > > Though I've heard many opinions on this liability issue both ways, I'm still > not clear about one point: > > Though many *manufacturers* have been sued (some to extinction, sadly), has > any homebuilder actually ever been either sued or lost in such a case? > > Now, in America, you can sue anyone for any reason any time, so the actual > suit being brought to bear is not particulary worrisome. Rutan, it is > rumored, was sued 28 times and won every time for the LongEZ. But has > there been a homebuilder, as an individual, receive judgement against them? > that anyone is aware of?? > > Larry > > > >The squared-off trailing edge mod is the perfect example of > >both. If the squared corners of the mod are ever painted over > >or rounded off by the 4th or 5th owners down the road, the > >original builder of the mod is legally liable, and deservedly > >so, for the owner's early demise. If a trailing edge insert or > >add-on ever goes "boing" and pops off in flight, the builder > >is liable and again, the pilot has worse problems to deal with. > > > >The blinders over my eyes have been removed. > > > >--Don Blankenship > >-- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files --------------7A8FC9DF2DF7FE255F61E468-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:30:04 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: RE: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <20020808173004.72339.qmail@mail.com> What we have is a total B.S net. We have people who feel required to put their endorsements on every weanie idea some innocent enthusiast asks about. Rarely lately does anyone site a legitimate source of where they got their knowledge on a topic. As long as they throw in a lot of words they and their readers don't understand, they feel they've done their homework. We don't have licensed Professional Engineers providing their insights, so don't blame PEs. But we do have people willing to pretend to be PEs. One person last month went so far as to say he isn't licensed to practice, but he would be perfectly happy to provide another builder with an engineering analysis if the builder would send him $2000! If we have pictures of our work, we should share them with others as many do. If we have references or legitimate sources of information, we should share them with others so they can make determinations about the validity of the info themselves to their own level of understanding. Without sharing first-hand building and flying info and valid sources, we are all doomed to criticize and laugh at each other for our often outlandish speculations. --Don Blankenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "Piunti, James A." Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:57:42 -0500 To: Subject: RE: KR> KRNet or BullShit Net > I'm going to concur with the majority of the opinions I've seen so far > on this topic. And as a very new person to the list, I may be better > able to offer you the 'new person's perspective' on the topic. > > I am not an aeronautical engineer - I want to build an airplane. And > that alone is reason to be here since one of the selling points of the > plan is the fact that it 'can be built by first-time builders'. As > Daniel says, most of the highly technical information is useless to me, > and I suspect, to most people who are here to get practical information. > I'd much rather hear information such as 'here's a great place to get > 6-oz cloth' rather than 'the x coefficient of the y parameter is > incubent upon the laminar flow of the..." You get the idea... :-) Not > that information of this type isn't useful to *someone*, but probably > not the majority of the list. > > Having run lists before, I know the degree of dedication it takes to > keep one running efficiently. I don't think the answer is to divide the > list into two - a techie and a non-techie list. That doubles the > workload of a presumably overworked host. But maybe we can combine the > ideas of a List and a Forum by having a place where the highly technical > stuff can be uploaded and perused by those interested. I don't know how > involved a change that might be to the present software - so it's just a > suggestion. > > Finally, this list is not even CLOSE to having as high a BQ (Bullshit > Quotient) as some I've seen. I get the feeling that the vast majority of > the posters do so out of a sincere desire to help and illuminate. I > don't see a lot of the 'credential rattling' I've seen on other lists. > Also, I don't think there's a problem of putting someone's life in > danger by the information posted here. The very nature of the building > process means that information posted TODAY is not likely to place > anyone in danger NEXT WEEK. The vast majority of us will take YEARS to > complete our projects, and we'll presumably be members of this list long > enough to discern the quacks from the boffins - be able to separate the > 'wheat from the chaff' as far as quality information. It's also > interesting to me, that of the dozen or so private welcomes I received > when I joined last week, the vast majority of them contained a "don't > believe everything you read" disclaimer for the information presented. > All were tastefully worded, with no names named, but there does appear > to be a perception that untested and dangerous information is presented > herein. > > But I don't think any of us are stupid - we all realize that we'll soon > be placing our butts into a glued-together flying box traveling at > 150mph at 8000 feet. *ANYONE* who takes *ANYTHING* they read here > without a grain of salt and without further research...has a death wish. > > Just my take... > > > > Jimmer < > Omaha,NE > > > ###################################################################### > The information contained in this electronic mail transmission > (including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its > authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally > privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible > for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended > recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are > hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, > printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained > in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone > (402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and > delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any > attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. > > Thank you. > ###################################################################### > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 04:14:48 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Hennie.van.Rooyen@honeywell.com Subject: RE: KR> Monowheel Hi Pax, No, the problem is definitely on our side. Today is Thursday, I'm only now beginning to receive Tuesday's mail. We had a problem with our UK server and more than likely the tremendous amount of back-logged traffic is slowing the server down. Hopefully it would be back to normal on Monday as we have a long weekend from this afternoon till then and it should be able to catch up. My text type of drawing for the wing fold mechanism comes out all distorted I see - How do I go about this now. I don't think attachments are allowed here. I can make a schetch in jpg or bmp format and mail to someone. Could you maybe host this somewhere? Enjoy your weekend, Hennie "On the Hennie thing, I think he's expecting to have his posts mailed back to him..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:11:50 -0500 To: "KRNet" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Attention KR Builders/lawers Message-ID: <004901c23f07$11a5e180$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C23EDD.285A5B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message is directed to the attention of any KRNet member who = is a lawyer. Is there any way to build and sell a homebuilt aircraft and not = have to worry about legal liabilities in case the buyer has an accident? =20 Please no response desired from non-lawyers. We do not need any = advice from the guard house lawyer types. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstone4@hot.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C23EDD.285A5B60-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:16:21 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> Attention KR Builders/lawers Message-ID: Robert, it has been 16 years since I received my Juris Doctorate but have never practiced, since I am a practicing CPA. You may not consider me qualified to answer. Since I am not a practicing lawyer, no attorney/client relationship exists. In my opinion, a builders culpability exists in the framework of implied or actual negligence which may or may not have contributed to an accident. Remember, you must be willing, and able, to defend an allegation of negligence. The plaintiffs's attorneys are taught to shotgun blast anyone who could remotely be culpable. With this said, the issue would not be black and white. The mere acquisition of waivers releasing one from future liability does not release one from negligence, this cannot be waived. Now, after I just said the issue is not black and white........in the real world the answer would be NOPE, there's no way you can preclude yourself from liability exposure in the subsequent sale of a homebuilt airplane. Can you say firewood?? Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com >From: "Robert Stone" >To: "KRNet" >Subject: KR> Attention KR Builders/lawers >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:11:50 -0500 > > This message is directed to the attention of any KRNet member who is >a lawyer. > > Is there any way to build and sell a homebuilt aircraft and not have >to worry about legal liabilities in case the buyer has an accident? > > Please no response desired from non-lawyers. We do not need any >advice from the guard house lawyer types. > >Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx >rstone4@hot.rr.com Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:32:53 -0500 To: "KR-Net" , "CorvAircraft" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Announcement Message-ID: <00d201c23f12$6625a6e0$c5991f41@wi.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C23EE8.7BB528C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This morning at 12:43am, my daughter, Lauren Katheryn Jones, was born = into the KR world with no complications. She is 8 pounds 7 ounces and is = already setting her sights on being a KR Corvaircraft pilot. Just had to = let you all know. Thanks Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C23EE8.7BB528C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:48:03 -0500 To: KR-Net From: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> Announcement Message-ID: <3D52CAF3.3050609@newtech.com> Mark Jones wrote: > This morning at 12:43am, my daughter, Lauren Katheryn Jones, was born into the KR world with no complications. She is 8 pounds 7 ounces and is already setting her sights on being a KR Corvaircraft pilot. Just had to let you all know. Thanks > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) CONGRATULATIONS. You were qualified for that construction project weren't you :-) Steve Eberhart Evansville, IN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:56:28 -0500 To: "Mark Jones" , "KR-Net" , "CorvAircraft" From: "Piunti, James A." Subject: RE: KR> Announcement Message-ID: <9499A53A0164444B9B9713923DE2644501E24E75@ex0103.firm.kutakrock.com> Congrats - I'd say we can call that construction project a success! > Jimmer < =20Omaha,NE -----Original Message----- From: Mark Jones [mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:33 PM To: KR-Net; CorvAircraft Subject: KR> Announcement This morning at 12:43am, my daughter, Lauren Katheryn Jones, was born into the KR world with no complications. She is 8 pounds 7 ounces and is already setting her sights on being a KR Corvaircraft pilot. Just had to let you all know. Thanks Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ###################################################################### The information contained in this electronic mail transmission (including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally=20 privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended=20 recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are=20 hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone=20 (402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. =20 Thank you. ###################################################################### ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:47:42 -0500 To: From: "Robert Stone" Cc: "Dana Overall \(E-mail\)" , "Donald Blankenship \(KR2\) \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Attention KR Builders/lawyers Message-ID: <000401c23f1c$d8e33bc0$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> Netters: Larry sent me this valuable information along with two other people. I am responding in the reply all mode Bcc hoping that all on the KRNet will benefit as this was my intention in the first place. I do not have an aircraft of any kind but have built the KR-l and the KR-2 years ago and sold both. The KR-2 was flown and crashed but only after the buyer changed the engine and that's what failed on take-off. (Larry, thanks for the quick response, I think your knowledge of what to do when selling a homebuilt aircraft is something all should know about) Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry A. Capps" To: "'Robert Stone'" Cc: "Dana Overall (E-mail)" ; "Donald Blankenship (KR2) (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:13 PM Subject: Attention KR Builders/lawyers > Robert, > > An amateur-built, certified Aircraft (AC) will lose its identity simply by > decertifying the AC with the FAA and removing the nameplate and N-number, > this will render AC as parts. The FAR's state that a "majority" of the AC > will be built by the amateur builder (most call this 51% rule, which is > incorrect), not that you have to be that particular amateur that built it. > By submitting your name as the manufacturer, you are saying that the parts > are sufficient to do the job, in your opinion as the manufacturer of an > "experimental" airplane. We purchase many preformed parts during the > assembly of are AC; your manufactured parts are no different. If you sell > this plane, and you don't want the liability of being listed as the > manufacturer, you only need remove the N-number and nameplate from the AC > and it becomes just "parts" as far as the DAR/FAA is concerned. > > You keep the Airworthiness Certificate, nameplate, registration, and all > documentation (useable on another design), and then any pilot that flies it > without getting an Airworthiness Certificate has violated the FAR's and that > would be the first thing the FAA puts at the top of the accident > investigation findings > > "THIS AIRCRAFT WAS FLOWN WITHOUT AN AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE AND THUS WAS > NOT AIRWORTHY." > > Even if someone could prove it was airworthy before the date of sale, it > does not produce any liability for you because it was not a certified AC on > the day the pilot flew the plane. To protect you further, make sure the > Bill of Sale (BOS) lists the AC as "parts", "project", and "kit". List each > item the buyer is purchasing (i.e., canopy, engine, instrument panel, > wheels, ect), have both parties sign and date the BOS. As stated, a project > is not ready to fly until a DAR signs off on it and the FAA issues the > Airworthiness Certificate along with an N-number. > > For the Airworthiness Certificate all you have to produce is an airworthy > airplane, and a Registration (N-number). The only thing about the completed > airplane that you have to prove is either that it is on the FAA's list for > amateur-built airplanes, or that an amateur did the majority of the work on > it. This only requires documentation of your building time when you're > trying to certify as experimental amateur-built, or as kit that may have > been so highly prefabricated at the kit factory that it only takes a few > hundred hours to complete it. > > The above information as originally written by ---Tom, has been reformatted > by me. The information above is purely my own opinion. > > Best Regards, > > Larry A. Capps > Naperville, IL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Stone [mailto:rstone4@hot.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:12 PM > To: KRNet > Subject: KR> Attention KR Builders/lawers > > > This message is directed to the attention of any KRNet member who is a > lawyer. > > Is there any way to build and sell a homebuilt aircraft and not have to > worry about legal liabilities in case the buyer has an accident? > > Please no response desired from non-lawyers. We do not need any advice > from the guard house lawyer types. > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx > rstone4@hot.rr.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:29:03 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: horiz. stab incidence Message-ID: Gene wrote: >I missed the NOTE: 8.31 page 57, stabilizer should be at 0% incidence >with top longerons. Stab commonly needs 3/32 shim under front spar. >Question... will this cause a climb factor to much to be countered by >trim and or elevator controls I seem to recall that Jeff Scott had to shim his up quite a bit to get it to fly level; so much so that he went ahead and re-installed it in the new location and re-did the HS fairings after he was done. It's not too much to be countered by elevator controls, but may be too much to take out with trim, depending on your trim setup (MAC, nyrod, bendable tabs, whatever you're using). Not only that, but you end up flying in a less-than-optimum configuration if it's having to be trimmed way out to fly level. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any standard incidence setting because no two KRs are built alike. Mark Langford's making his adjustable so he can work that out in his flight testing phase. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************