From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 10 Aug 2002 08:45:20 -0000 Issue 495 Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:46 AM krnet Digest 10 Aug 2002 08:45:20 -0000 Issue 495 Topics (messages 12006 through 12035): Re: Burning and Buying Used Aircraft 12006 by: Stephen P. Glover 12012 by: Deems Herring WHINEBAGS AND IDEAS 12007 by: Larry 12009 by: ROBERT COOPER Re: Announcement 12008 by: Mark Jones Apology 12010 by: Donald Blankenship Re: Flox 12011 by: Buddy & Cheryl KR NEWS LETTER #*+##@ 12013 by: David Hartz Re: Engine Options(main)/ KRNet or B.S.Net(short) 12014 by: AeroPax.aol.com 12015 by: Bob Farmer TGIF 12016 by: Dana Overall Re: forming windshields 12017 by: Jerry Mahurin 12018 by: Jerry Mahurin 12022 by: AeroPax.aol.com 12035 by: Deems Herring Re: KRNet or B.S.Net 12019 by: Donald Reid Re: KRNet or B.S.Net--Thank You 12020 by: Donald Blankenship Re: Horiz Stab Incidence 12021 by: NORM-RUTH Re: Blunt trailing edges 12023 by: Donald Reid kr2 stabilizer incidence 12024 by: c00p3rm3.bellsouth.net 12025 by: c00p3rm3.bellsouth.net 12026 by: Mark Langford 12028 by: M&C 12030 by: Mark Langford Looking for a ELT 12027 by: Darren Pond Cable the engine to fuselage? 12029 by: Darren Pond 12031 by: Mark Jones 12032 by: Ronald Freiberger KR Newsletter - 27 years on CD - use PayPal 12033 by: Larry A. Capps KR Newsletter - 27 years on CD - use check by mail 12034 by: Larry A. Capps Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:33:36 -0700 To: , "Piunti, James A." From: "Stephen P. Glover" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <000e01c23f4d$2a465800$c18afea9@IntelliSpec> I bought my KR-2 from a lying, no good thief named Steve Sutton in Louisville, KY. According to him BEFORE I drove out to KY. from Calif., he said the airplane was ready to fly and in perfect condition. When I arrived it was far from flyable but at least a worthy project with a "New Engine". After stopping at Revmaster on the way home to have the front oil seal changed due to "a small leak" acoording to Sutton, I learned there had been a Major prop strike and the engine had to be completely rebuilt. All calls and e-mails to KY went unanswered. Imagine that! I could go on but you get the idea. Bottom line is, BEWARE before purchasing. Inspect it thoroughly, and if something doesn't seem right, it probalby isn't. Steve Glover Racnho Santa Margarita, Ca. KR-2 in rebuild - I hope to make the Gathering. KR-1 in progress - kinda. n925sg@earthlink.net > I called the two owners that had it before him and the first one who had > it told me that the second one had a prop strike. The second owner(who > sold it to the person I bought it from) denied the prop strike. > > Wonder if he had any idea what kind of liability case he would be > against if I believed him and didn't have the crank checked. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:39:48 -0500 To: "krnet listing" From: "Deems Herring" Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <001d01c23f67$2d15f3f0$6402a8c0@gloriahome> For anyone who is looking for a flying homebuilt oror a partially completed project I would recommend that if the owner is the original builder one of the first things to ask is if an EAA counselor was used and if so how to contact that individual. If it is not the builder tell the seller that you would like to get an EAA technical counselor in the area to look at the plane. If the seller objects to that, I would tell him no thanks and look elsewhere. EAA will provide a list of technical counselors for any area you request. The local technical counselors usually have a great deal of knowledge about the planes and people who own them in their area. They are not allowed to charge for services as a technical counselor so you can'y expect a compleate pre-purchase inspectionbut the ones I have dealt with are more than happy to give their opinion on the quality of the plane and in the case of of a partially completed project their review of the builders log can be the most useful information. I have a tech counselor inspecting a partially completed KR2 tommorrow so that I can decide if it is worth a 900 mile trip to check it out. How can you pass up free use of a resource like that? Deems Herring Baudette, Minnesota ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen P. Glover" To: ; "Piunti, James A." Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 9:33 PM Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft > I bought my KR-2 from a lying, no good thief named Steve Sutton in > Louisville, KY. > > Steve Glover > Racnho Santa Margarita, Ca. > > KR-2 in rebuild - I hope to make the Gathering. > KR-1 in progress - kinda. > n925sg@earthlink.net > > > I called the two owners that had it before him and the first one who had > > it told me that the second one had a prop strike. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:48:37 -0500 To: From: "Larry" Subject: WHINEBAGS AND IDEAS Message-ID: <014d01c23f4f$43cd75e0$20dd28d8@l0c1i1> ------=_NextPart_000_014A_01C23F25.5A159960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be glad when people on this list quit whining !!! Some are = natural born whiners !!! I will also be glad when people on this list figure out that an = EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT is just that--EXPERIMENTAL that means trying = something that has not been done before POSSIBLY. If someone has an idea he wants to share--let him--if it is a stupid = idea in your mind--then delete it. If Mark wants to add a spaceshuttle = engine to his KR then he might be the one to win the 10million $ X Prize = (if they had any money that is) Why can't some of you guys understand that people are presenting an idea = or an opinion--don't take anything as the gospel--do as Mark suggested, = if you see an idea that you like then research it to see if it will kill = you. If it will kill you or someone that you may sell your junk to then = don't do it. If you are timid about making changes then by all means = build your plane exactly to the original plans, but don't try and tell = someone else to build your way because they may think you are stupid. I am one of those guys who thinks he knows a lot about experimental = aircraft--I have found that even after over 25 years of building that I = see new ideas that are very good on the KRNET every day almost and that = I don't really know anything in the Big Scheme of things. Just remember that a lot of the IDEAS ON THE NET MAY SPUR A REALLY GOOD = IDEA IN SOMEONE ELSE IDEAS GROW--THATS REALITY--THEY BUILD AND BUILD UNTIL A POOR IDEA = BECOMES SOMETHING REALLY GOOD. Lets keep the ideas coming, that is what this is all about. Larry Howell laheze@ev1.net ------=_NextPart_000_014A_01C23F25.5A159960-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:08:51 -0400 To: "Larry" , "krnet" From: "ROBERT COOPER" Subject: Re: KR> WHINEBAGS AND IDEAS Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C23F30.8F7B5580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be glad when people on this list quit whining !!! Some are natura= l born whiners !!! I agree with Larry. I have about worn out my delete key tonight. I worked= on my KR about 2 hours tonight and then came in to check the net and del= eted most post after reading only one or two lines. I did read Danna's po= st about libality and Mark Jones announcement. Other than that not much i= nteresting. Keep the net the way it is and if necessary I'll get a new de= lete key. I heard a well respected corporate attorney say that he had flu= nked out of engineering school and that he thought engineers were much sm= arter than attorneys. Anyone who could pass thermodynamics has his respec= t. Mark Langford and Don Reed - Keep up the good work. Jack Cooper =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C23F30.8F7B5580-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:08:45 -0500 To: "KR-Net" , "CorvAircraft" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: Announcement Message-ID: <008a01c23f52$12c406a0$c5991f41@wi.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C23F28.29B27C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You guys are all GREAT !!! I just opened my e-mail and found over two = hundred post congratulating me on my new daughter. For those of you who = don't know, I have a wife, four boys and now a girl and a KR-2S. What = more could a man want? That one is easy...all of you as friends!!! The = KR Net and Corvaircraft groups are excellent people to be associated = with. It does not matter if you are an expert or a piddler. Every one of = you out there has something to offer someone else...your friendship. You = have proven that to me today with all the post I have received. Let us = all get back to the basics of building and keep learning from one = another. Thank You!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C23F28.29B27C40-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:42:30 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Apology Message-ID: <20020809024230.62017.qmail@mail.com> I apologize to Don Reid. I tried to convey my deepest respect for his work but have a fundamental disagreement with one of his observations. I said no one on our net could possibly have a PE license and I was wrong. He does have a PE license, and nobody can argue with that. We're lucky to have him as I've always said, and I just hope I don't get kicked off the net. Don Blankenship No Credentials Whatsoever -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:01:26 -0700 To: "Daniel Heath" , From: "Buddy & Cheryl" Subject: Re: KR> Flox Message-ID: <013501c23f59$6f631980$1e02a8c0@WorkGroup> ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C23F1E.C297EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the response to both you Dan & also Jim who seconded your = advice. I was going to order some more, it's quite inexpensive, but = wasn't sure even how much I'd need. Hate to order five gallons and have = four gallons left over. Most the glass work ahead of me is the tail = feathers & all the rest is pre-molds. Bud ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel Heath=20 To: krnet@mailinglists.org=20 Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 9:02 PM Subject: RE: KR> Flox I would not be at all concerned about any of that. If it were mine, I = would use it. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org=20 For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C23F1E.C297EB20-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:59:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Thomas C Adams , krnet@mailinglists.org From: David Hartz Subject: KR NEWS LETTER #*+##@ Message-ID: <20020809065922.43475.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> NETTERS WE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF OURSELFS!WE ARE ALL NOT ONLY INVOLVED IN BUILDING OUR PLANES AND PUTTING OUR VEIWS OUT HERE ON THE NET TO HELP EACH OTHER,BUT WHEN A FELLOW NETTER TAKES THE RAINS OF THE NEWS LETTER,WE FAIL TO SUPPORT HIM. TO HELL WITH THE HHHRRRUUUUMPPPHHHSSSS.LETS GIVE SOME SUPPORT WHERE ITS NEEDED! IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE BEEN BURNED BY MONTE,WRITE IT OFF,HE WILL HAVE TO ANSWER IN HIS OWN WAY{CARMA!}LETS GET IT TOGETTER PEOPLE! DAVE > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:01:55 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: AeroPax@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Engine Options(main)/ KRNet or B.S.Net(short) Message-ID: <12.238210a4.2a84fb23@aol.com> --part1_12.238210a4.2a84fb23_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last I checked, neither of the Wright Brothers had degrees in engineering. The great thing about science is that anyone can do it. You do the research and experiment and then share the results. I like Mark's report on the new airfoil and with the software out there today or a bit of resourcefulness, I can verify that report. I don't care what prefix he has to his name, it was good work, and we should all be appreciative, whether you want to use the new foil or not. Now for the actual reason for my post. I've been looking at a lot of engines lately and have a few I'd like to put out here for comment. My goal is to have a 450 lb empty KR and obviously a good portion of the weight of the plane is in the engine. So with my criteria of at least 60 hp I found a few lightweights that I present here. Any suggestions for other lightweight engines are welome. Avid BMW 78hp 150 lb $8000 http://www.airdale.com/bmw_engines.htm 2SI ZDE 690L-70 70hp 101 lb $ ??? http://www.2si.com/2si_Aircraft.htm MZ301 90hp 100-120 lb $6568 http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz301.htm Pax Rolfe Tulsa, OK --part1_12.238210a4.2a84fb23_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:34:49 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "Bob Farmer" Subject: Re: KR> Engine Options(main)/ KRNet or B.S.Net(short) Message-ID: <002b01c23f90$643f3660$ef5f62d8@oemcomputer> My engine page at http://www.foamhead.com/Builders%20pages/engine.html may have some you have not seen. The Hirth engines look pretty good and have some good technology. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Any suggestions for other lightweight > engines are welome. > > Avid BMW 78hp 150 lb $8000 > http://www.airdale.com/bmw_engines.htm > > 2SI ZDE 690L-70 70hp 101 lb $ ??? > http://www.2si.com/2si_Aircraft.htm > > MZ301 90hp 100-120 lb $6568 > http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz301.htm > > Pax Rolfe > Tulsa, OK > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:52:05 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: TGIF Message-ID: This picture looks much like prior pictures but don't let that deceive you, there has since been a lot of work completed. http://rvflying.tripod.com/p8090145.jpg As you can see the outboard leading edge has been riveted on along with the inboard main skin. The fuel tank is bolted on. The tank is installed in such a manner that it can be removed if a leak develops (man, I hate to even mention tank and leak in the same sentence:-). The inboard skin was the first time I had to use someone else to assist in bucking the rivets. I'll finish the outboard main skin this weekend, then no clecos will be holding anything together (big achievement with this airplane). At that point it truly becomes a wing with the installation of the ailerons and flaps. Yep, still been assembling. Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:38:11 -0400 To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields Message-ID: >Hi, would it not be possible to form a windshield >around a form or to the shape of a frame by fastening >the part in the center so it will be stationary, Then, >using flat nylon straps( the 4inch wide straps used >for holding loads on a truck)apply slight pressure to >the windshield by wrapping the strap around the front >of the lexan or plexiglass. Then you could use a heat >gun held far enough from the surface so as not to >distort it or get it too hot, and pull the straps >tighter as you heat the windshield. You would only >need to heat the areas where the bends would be, then >when it is pulled into shape, hold it tight to the Rick, et al, We tried something similar to what you proposed. The major problem is the distribution of heat with the heat gun. We have a very good (hot, high air volume) heat gun. But distributing enough heat evenly along the bend lines is impossible resulting in distortion and uneven bends. Right now we are leaning toward using acrylic (plexiglass - brand name) in an oven draped over a form. Not definate yet though..... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:20 -0400 To: From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields Message-ID: If >you have experience bending Lexan fine otherwise you need >to research it >carfully before attempting it. We are getting experience....!!! My personal prefference is >to use lexan for >simple curves only, in that instance it is very flexible >and you can just >bend it, attach it to the frame and your done. ....And that is what we did. The problems showed up later with 'crazing' along the bend lines. I am going to try to get some pics this weekend to post on the website........ Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://kr-builder.org http://jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:18:55 EDT To: jerrymahurin@charter.net, KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: AeroPax@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields Message-ID: <18f.c263dc6.2a857daf@aol.com> --part1_18f.c263dc6.2a857daf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to be into recumbent bicycles and the streamliners used fairings made out of plexi heated then blown like a buble. Here's a site detailing how to do it with air pressure. http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm Pax Rolfe Tulsa, OK --part1_18f.c263dc6.2a857daf_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:45:29 -0500 To: "krnet listing" From: "Deems Herring" Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields Message-ID: <001a01c2404a$48381df0$6402a8c0@gloriahome> 2 items not mentioned in the article that that you need to know are: that the thickness of the bubble will taper thin in the middle and thick at the edges you should take that into account when you choose the thickness of material. the amount of taper will vary depending on the temperature of the plastic and the speed at which you blow the bubble. practice with carefull notes on temperature and a good way to to control the rate of air flow is the only way I know to blow a ggod canopy. Second you notice that the forming temperature for lexan is above the boiling point of water. this is the reason you get crazing in lexan when heated for forming unless you heat at slowly enough to allow the moisture to migrate out of the material before it reaches the boiling point the time needed to accomplish this will vary based on the initial moiture content of the material and its thickness. Your air source must be oil and moisture free. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields > I used to be into recumbent bicycles and the streamliners used fairings made > out of plexi heated then blown like a buble. Here's a site detailing how to > do it with air pressure. > > http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm > > Pax Rolfe > Tulsa, OK > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:44:29 -0400 To: ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020809091208.00a30750@pop.erols.com> --=====================_3814078==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In a note that directed to me, Donald Blankenship asked me to reconsider a message that I had sent regarding blunt (or in my term, fat) trailing edges. He seems to think that I was advocating the use of an airfoil with trailing edges that are blunt (or in my term, fat). I asked him to re-read my post because I thought that he was confused as to what I wrote. I wrote my message because I believed that erroneous information had been presented. At 08:14 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, John and Janet Martindale wrote: >I seem to recall reading that the vortices formed by a blunt trailing edge >also assist in interuppting the tendency for flutter I stated my opinion that vortices formation can be a bad thing and gave a specific reference that a lot of people are familiar with. Quote: Control surface flutter will occur when the frequency of the vortex shedding approaches the natural frequency of the control surface. If you have ever seen the movie of the Verizano Bridge (if I spelled that correctly) shaking itself to failure, then you know what vortex shedding will do. That is what caused the failure. End Quote: My last statement of the post was: Quote: A fat trailing edge will increase the likelihood of vortex shedding. There are reasons that a designer may want to use an airfoil with a fat trailing edge; most notably, to change control response/control force or for increased structural strength. End Quote: At 09:10 PM 8/8/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: >Don Reid ... told people to build "fat" trailing edges when he meant >"flat" TEs (he typed it wrong twice). I asked him about it and he >apologized but printed no correction. Someone builds a properly engineered >squared off TE and makes sure nobody ever paints the corners it and you >gotta winner. If someone makes "fat" trailing edges they'll increase their >stall speed which Don admits is undesirable (quite). I did not address the effect on stall speed in my post. I am not prepared to address that issue because I have neither studied it nor given it any thought. If anyone else on the net thinks that I am advocating the use of an airfoil with an unusually thick/blunt/fat trailing edge, based on what I wrote, then I would like to know about it. The confusion probably came about because I used the word fat (which I typed correctly), meaning abnormally thick; i.e. blunt. When message, I spent a lot of time trying to get it correct. If I confused anyone other than Donald Blankenship, I would like to know. Trying to be very clear: There are specific reasons that a designer will change the trailing edge profile of an airfoil. I do not believe that it is something that should be done without detailed analysis and a testing program. --=====================_3814078==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:09:18 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net--Thank You Message-ID: <20020809150919.19187.qmail@mail.com> I shared my opposing view on blunt trailing edges, because it was obvious Don had neglected serious negative effects on stall characteristics of fat trailing edges. Though I tried to be was nice as his grandma, he didn't like it. He still doesn't like it, but has at least has clarified that fat trailing edges are "generally not a good idea" and that he hasn't studied stall effects of the device he was advocating. I thank him. Now let's get back to stomping me into oblivion and casting "votes" for and against opinions. At 11:47 AM 8/8/2002 -0500, you (Don Blankenship) wrote: You have my greatest admiration, but I just wanted to clarify for myself whether you meant "fat" trailing edge, which is not recommended by Jon Ronce and other well-known designers, or a "flat" trailing edge. The first spelling can reportedly have particularly undesirable consequences on stall. I guess it hardly matters, because once a plane is sold and repainted several times, either becomes fat and rounded. Don Reid replied: I could have phased it better, but fat, as in thick, is generally not a good idea. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Reid Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:44:29 -0400 To: , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net > In a note that directed to me, Donald Blankenship asked me to reconsider a > message that I had sent regarding blunt (or in my term, fat) trailing > edges. He seems to think that I was advocating the use of an airfoil with > trailing edges that are blunt (or in my term, fat). I asked him to re-read > my post because I thought that he was confused as to what I wrote. > > I wrote my message because I believed that erroneous information had been > presented. > > At 08:14 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, John and Janet Martindale wrote: > >I seem to recall reading that the vortices formed by a blunt trailing edge > >also assist in interuppting the tendency for flutter > > I stated my opinion that vortices formation can be a bad thing and gave a > specific reference that a lot of people are familiar with. > > Quote: > Control surface flutter will occur when the frequency of the vortex > shedding approaches the natural frequency of the control surface. If you > have ever seen the movie of the Verizano Bridge (if I spelled that > correctly) shaking itself to failure, then you know what vortex shedding > will do. That is what caused the failure. > End Quote: > > My last statement of the post was: > Quote: > A fat trailing edge will increase the likelihood of vortex shedding. There > are reasons that a designer may want to use an airfoil with a fat trailing > edge; most notably, to change control response/control force or for > increased structural strength. > End Quote: > > > At 09:10 PM 8/8/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: > >Don Reid ... told people to build "fat" trailing edges when he meant > >"flat" TEs (he typed it wrong twice). I asked him about it and he > >apologized but printed no correction. Someone builds a properly engineered > >squared off TE and makes sure nobody ever paints the corners it and you > >gotta winner. If someone makes "fat" trailing edges they'll increase their > >stall speed which Don admits is undesirable (quite). > > I did not address the effect on stall speed in my post. I am not prepared > to address that issue because I have neither studied it nor given it any > thought. If anyone else on the net thinks that I am advocating the use of > an airfoil with an unusually thick/blunt/fat trailing edge, based on what I > wrote, then I would like to know about it. > > The confusion probably came about because I used the word fat (which I > typed correctly), meaning abnormally thick; i.e. blunt. > > When message, I spent a lot of time trying to get it correct. If I > confused anyone other than Donald Blankenship, I would like to know. > > Trying to be very clear: There are specific reasons that a designer will > change the trailing edge profile of an airfoil. I do not believe that it > is something that should be done without detailed analysis and a testing > program. -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:10:50 -0700 To: "krnet" From: "NORM-RUTH" Subject: Fw: KR> Horiz Stab Incidence Message-ID: <010f01c23fd8$7ac657e0$7aea3a41@pavilion> Thanks John- Any idea how I could get some drawings? Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: "gleeso" To: "NORM-RUTH" Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:44 AM Subject: Re: KR> Horiz Stab Incidence > Norm > Have a look at a TriPacer, Super Cub, Pacer, They have a jack screw which > moves the whole tailplane assy. Same as a 727 (only smaller) > Regards > John Gleeson > VH NLA(ex N4500A) Downunder > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 17:15:36 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR>Blunt trailing edges Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020809170049.00a32880@pop.erols.com> --=====================_30885273==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This will be my last posting on this particular topic. I have not now, nor have I ever, advocated that anyone alter the trailing edges of any airfoil. No portion of any of my messages on this subject are intended to be an advocacy. I did not condemn the idea, but that is entirely different than advocating. At 10:09 AM 8/9/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: >He still doesn't like it, but has at least has clarified that fat trailing >edges are "generally not a good idea" and that he hasn't studied stall >effects of the device he was advocating. It was also pointed out the me that I made a glaring and egregious error. "Verrazano Narrows bridge is still standing and happily collecting massive amounts of toll money for the Metropolitan Transit Authority of New York, and has been since it first opened in 1964. On the other hand the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapsed in 1940". Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_30885273==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:54:32 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Subject: kr2 stabilizer incidence Message-Id: <20020809225432.CTTL3182.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@localhost> Jim, thanks again for answering my post. My wings are off and have not yet installed any pre-molded parts. If I understand you, all I want to do is get 0 deg. incidence between the wing and stab. Could that be checked by projecting a line from the face of the fwd. wing spar to a point above the longerons then do the same at the stabilizer spar. If my two lines were paralell, wouldn't that show 0 deg. incidence between the two? If they aren't paralell then I would have to shim till paralell....0 deg.? I'm no engineer so all the help I can get is welcome. Many thanks to all. Jim wrote: Gene,if your outer wings are off, mark location of cord line at end of stub wing. original message From jim @ synergy design to c00p3rm3@bellsouth.net subject- kr2 stab. incidence ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:54:38 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Subject: kr2 stabilizer incidence Message-Id: <20020809225438.CTVQ3182.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@localhost> Jim, thanks again for answering my post. My wings are off and have not yet installed any pre-molded parts. If I understand you, all I want to do is get 0 deg. incidence between the wing and stab. Could that be checked by projecting a line from the face of the fwd. wing spar to a point above the longerons then do the same at the stabilizer spar. If my two lines were paralell, wouldn't that show 0 deg. incidence between the two? If they aren't paralell then I would have to shim till paralell....0 deg.? I'm no engineer so all the help I can get is welcome. Many thanks to all. Jim wrote: Gene,if your outer wings are off, mark location of cord line at end of stub wing. original message From jim @ synergy design to c00p3rm3@bellsouth.net subject- kr2 stab. incidence ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:25:35 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> kr2 stabilizer incidence Message-ID: <001801c23ffc$10d49170$5600a8c0@athlon600> Somebody wrote: > If I understand you, all I want to do is get 0 deg. incidence between the wing and stab. ASSuming your wing is installed correctly, and you want to follow the plans, you need to install the horizontal stabilizer at 0 degrees to the FUSELAGE, not the WING. That is normally accomplished by either leveling the fuselage's top longerons with a 2 foot level sitting on the top longerons centered between the main and aft spars, and then installing the h.s. level as well. Another method is to level the firewall, but the funny thing is that the firewall and top longerons are normally not perpendicular. If you just want to check and see that the wings are installed properly, you'd need some idea of there the chord line is, which is somewhat hard to guess on the front end without a template. But you'd want a total of 3.5 degrees of angular difference between wing root and horizontal stabilizer chord lines. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:29:15 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , From: "M&C" Subject: Re: KR> kr2 stabilizer incidence Message-ID: <003a01c24015$d0e2a380$67ae4ad1@matandcat> In regards to the angles of incidences and leveling of the fuselage, I wanted to get as much accuracy as possible so I used a transit level like that used for survey work on construction sites ect.. The logerons usually have a little sag due to the bending of the sides of the fuselages and that can create some degree of error. I took shots on both left and right sides of the logerons at the fire wall and set the top of the logerons at the tail to the same height. This gave me a level plane to work from. I used this same method to get the 3-1/2 degrees on the RAF48 stub wings by taking shots on the cord lines at the leading edges and calculating the amount of fall necessary at the trailing edge cord lines. I then took shots on the top of the horz. stab. (front and rear) and set that level. I used this same method to get the dihedral and washout of the wings. This was a very easy and accurate way to set it up. After every thing was set I wanted to be sure there was no error in the instrument so I set up and took shots in the opposite direction and checked all elevations against the first set I had. Everything checked to within 1/32 inch. This takes away any error that can be created by the sag in the logerons. Using a two foot level can induce errors that may not acceptable. Even if the bubble reads level. You can turn the level end to end and sometimes get a different reading even with so called expensive levels. They have a curved portion of glass that gives them some built in error due to surface tension within the glass. A torpedo level has far more accuracy because the glass is straight and is far more sensitive to movements. I have gone into hardware stores and stacked 4 or 5 levels on top of each other and have gotten different readings form all of them. I'm not saying don't ever use a level. I think that the main thing is to get the front of the plane and the rear level and work everything else from that. Mike Turner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:25 PM Subject: Re: KR> kr2 stabilizer incidence > Somebody wrote: > > > If I understand you, all I want to do is get 0 deg. incidence between the > wing and stab. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:27:14 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> kr2 stabilizer incidence Message-ID: <000901c2401d$d2a679f0$5600a8c0@athlon600> Mike Turner wrote: > Using a two foot level can induce errors that may not acceptable. Even > if the bubble reads level. You can turn the level end to end and sometimes > get a different reading even with so called expensive levels. Well, I suppose if you have a crappy 2 foot level, that would be true. Mine is a fairly ordinary Empire Unitek el-cheapo, and has about a sixteenth of an inch between the bubble and each of the black lines that surround it. It also has two set screws that allow you to keep it calibrated, but that I've never had to touch. I just shimmed one end of the level up about an eight of an inch (on my flat tablesaw bed) and got the bubble to move about an eigth of an inch from center. I can easily discern 1/32 like you can, so let's say that the best I can discern then would be an error of 1/32" over a distance of two feet, which coincidentally, is the same 1/32" accuracy that you get with your transit. That's .075 degrees, which is close enough for most folks. Now as to what consitutes "level" for a KR fuselage, that's entirely subjective. I wrote a diatribe on this a few years ago at the bottom of http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kspars.html , but I doubt that it makes much difference to the plane whether the fuselage is off from level a half a degree or so either way, as long as the wing and stabilizer are in the correct relationship to each other. Of course, I don't agree with the 3.5 degree decalage that's given in the plans anyway, but I wouldn't dare claim to know what I'm talking about until I've flown mine, have become a REAL KR pilot, and have adjusted my horizontal stab incidence to perfection... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:44:28 -0700 To: "krnet" From: "Darren Pond" Subject: Looking for a ELT Message-ID: <016801c24017$d9468c60$8b969d18@cambr.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0165_01C23FDD.2C9CEFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All Who's got the best deal on ELT's AS would like $200US or so and my = Canadian supplier asking $375 Canadian for a ACK ELT. is there a better = supplier than AS or a better ELT for the dollar? Darren Pond Cambridge Ontario Canada CYKF Taylor Mono plane C-FVML waiting on Transport Canada=20 PondHopper 2.2 turbo (KR2S Heavy) Early building stages pond27@rogers.com 519-651-2522 ------=_NextPart_000_0165_01C23FDD.2C9CEFC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:47:04 -0700 To: "Robert X. Cringely" , "krnet" From: "Darren Pond" Subject: Cable the engine to fuselage? Message-ID: <02da01c24031$5b971b80$8b969d18@cambr.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> HI Bob My local Eaa rep also told a story of chaining an engine to fuselage. I must admit I did not believe him at the time. Is this a common practice and maybe or should be something I should put on my aircraft? What size cable did you use? where did you fasten the cable to? Darren Pond Cambridge Ontario Canada CYKF Taylor Mono plane C-FVML waiting on Transport Canada PondHopper 2.2 turbo (KR2S Heavy) Early building stages pond27@rogers.com 519-651-2522 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:03:48 -0500 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Cable the engine to fuselage? Message-ID: <00cc01c24022$ee504960$c5991f41@wi.rr.com> I feel this EAA counselor was referring to a non structural practice done by some homebuilders as a margin of safety. Consider this: If your engine develops some type of severe off balance syndrome, starts vibrating excessively and shakes itself off the firewall, you lose!!! Why? Your engine has just fallen to the ground and your CG just shifted to the tail and down you go with no way to glide that plane to a possible landing. If that engine is chained or cabled to the fuselage, you have a much better chance of not losing the engine or your CG range and with the Grace of God, you just may make it to the ground gliding, instead of falling. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darren Pond" > > > > My local Eaa rep also told a story of chaining an engine to fuselage. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:32:52 -0400 To: "KRNET" From: "Ronald Freiberger" Subject: RE: KR> Cable the engine to fuselage? Message-ID: Cable restraint is required on Formula One racers, and a good idea anyway. Ive been told (first hand) of landing a J-3 with the engine hanging by the carb heat cable. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:29:21 -0500 To: "KR Builders List \(E-mail\)" From: "Larry A. Capps" Subject: KR Newsletter - 27 years on CD - use PayPal Message-ID: <000c01c2402e$e1e99490$0500a8c0@schpankme> Hello KRNet, For those who would like purchase your own copy "27 Years of the KR Newsletter on CD", which is fully searchable, in Adobe(c) format. We now have our PayPal account available to assist you. Through PayPal, you can purchase using your favorite credit card (Visa, Master Card, Discover, American Express) www.paypal.com <=Get your PayPal account, takes 2-minutes To purchase your CD "27 Years of the KR Newsletter" Login to your PayPal account and make your payment to: krnews@attbi.com $47.00 - anywhere in the world (shipped) (Illinois Residents add 6.75% sales tax) Best Regards, Larry A. Capps KR Newsletter Naperville, IL mailto:krnews@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:41:51 -0500 To: "KR Builders List \(E-mail\)" From: "Larry A. Capps" Subject: KR Newsletter - 27 years on CD - use check by mail Message-ID: <000e01c24030$a15a4210$0500a8c0@schpankme> Hello KRNet, For those who would like purchase your own copy "27 Years of the KR Newsletter on CD", which is fully searchable, in Adobe(c) format. To purchase your CD "27 Years of the KR Newsletter" Make your check or money orders out to: KR Newsletter 10S485 Book Road Naperville, IL. 60564-9658 $45.00 - anywhere in the world (shipped) (Illinois Residents add 6.75% sales tax) NOTE: All payments must be submitted in US dollars or Check drafted on a US financial institution Best Regards, Larry A. Capps KR Newsletter Naperville, IL mailto:krnews@attbi.com ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************