From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 14 Jan 2003 15:45:15 -0000 Issue 606 Date: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:45 AM krnet Digest 14 Jan 2003 15:45:15 -0000 Issue 606 Topics (messages 14473 through 14496): Re: little bitty update 14473 by: Dan Heath 14475 by: Mark Langford 14477 by: Dana Overall 14481 by: David Clinthonre 14482 by: Robert X. Cringely 14486 by: Mark Langford 14488 by: John & Elaine Roffey Re: I've often wondered why 14474 by: Dan Heath building aileron 14476 by: larry flesner Re: an easier way 14478 by: Dan Heath 14494 by: Anthony Underwood Re: Polyester or Epoxy? 14479 by: Dan Heath 14483 by: Robert X. Cringely 14492 by: Phillip Matheson 14493 by: Serge Vidal tail templates 14480 by: Mark Langford Re: [AirVW]parts for sale 14484 by: Timothy Bellville 14495 by: Ronnie Lee KR2S IN ARIZONA 14485 by: Lee Van Dyke 14487 by: John & Elaine Roffey 14489 by: John.Holeman.asu.edu 14490 by: Bob Sauer 14491 by: wstarrs Re: Boat stage project for sale 14496 by: Rex Ellington Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:25:07 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-Id: <3E22CC43.000028.01196@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_VDPNB2O2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0D =0D How did you determine the amount of weight it would take? Or, how did yo= u weigh that portion of the aileron that was left to be balanced? Thanks f= or the altenative to fishing weights. I'll bet I can get all I need up at t= he Firestone store.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath -Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Date: Sunday, January 12, 2003 05:01:34 PM=0D To: KRnet=0D Subject: KR> little bitty update=0D =0D NetHeads,=0D =0D I spent the day getting my rough wing tips into a little better shape, an= d=0D making aileron counterweights. As you can see at=0D http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/03011212m.jpg ,=0D the counterweights are just 4130 tubes filled with lead. I heated up some= =0D old tire weights in an old boiler on a hot plate 'til they melted, and=0D poured the lead down in the tubing and filled it from end to end. Epoxy a= nd=0D lead shot would work too, but this was more efficient use of the volume.=0D I'd already calculated how many inches I'd need, based on weighing the=0D trailing edge while the aileron was free to pivot about the hinge point, = and=0D summing moments.=0D =0D In the photo I'm in the process of sliding the counterweight into place,=0D where it will be epoxied full length. I kinda like this method because my= =0D counterweight is uniformly distributed across the entire aileron, rather=0D than at just one point. Also, my counterweight is faired in about as good= =0D as you can get it! Right now it's overbalanced, and after painting I can=0D easily adjust it by drilling out some lead from the end.=0D =0D This photo also shows the split flap (which will require a gap seal) and=0D makes it clear that I'll need some little fairings around my aileron hing= es.=0D These are Frise ailerons, with a long nose to counteract adverse yaw, not= =0D that there's anything wrong with the KR offset bellcrank method.=0D =0D The next task will be "healing" the edges of the aileron with carbon fibe= r=0D to cover up the bare foam and strengthen the aileron. Next I'll have to=0D make a clear streamlined cover for the nav/strobe lights on the wing tips= =2E=0D Then it's primer/surfacer and I can paint the wings!=0D =0D If I were to make these ailerons again, I'd think I'd just use piano hing= es,=0D and save myself a lot of trouble. Same goes for the flaps, but hinged at=0D the bottom. I have some amazing hindsight.=0D =0D The ailerons and flaps were both halfway constructed "in place", hinges a= nd=0D all, and then cut out after the wing was laid up. I've often wondered why= =0D you wouldn't want to do that when building the "stock" ailerons per plans= =2E=0D Seems like it would save a lot of work.=0D =0D There are more details on my wing construction at=0D http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/owings.html . There's also a fair amount= =0D of "how to fiberglass" info in there, for those who need that sort of thi= ng.=0D After looking at this for a minute, I'm not sure if I'm a genius or a rav= ing=0D lunatic! Maybe somewhere in between. It's definitely not "stock" though.=0D It's hard to believe it's been three years since I last worked on my wing= s.=0D 2003 or bust...=0D =0D =0D =0D Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama=0D mailto:langford@hiwaay.net=0D see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D ---------------------------------------------------------------------=0D To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all"=0D =0D To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org =0D For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org=0D =0D See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp=0D or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files=0D =0D =2E=20 --------------Boundary-00=_VDPNB2O2QL8000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:53:26 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-ID: <002701c2bb02$c4055e10$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Bob, thanks for the heads-up. You may be right about all of that stuff, but like you said, he changed a lot of things, and so have I, so who knows what the end result will be. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I sized my ailerons by figuring the area of the stocker times the distance of the centroid from the centerline, and divided my centroid into that number to get my area, so I have the same "effective" aileron area as the stock KR2S. Chord effect would be another consideration though. One thing about it is that if I feel the need, it'll be a real piece of cake to build a completely new aileron, since all I'd have to do it pull two little pins and one bolt through the pushrod and my aileron is removed. Same for the flap, except it's three pins and a pushrod. It would be easy to make them the stock KR counterweighted way if needed. It might even be a nice data point for comparison between the two. I have a feeling I'm going to be altering a lot of things after I get flying, just to see what difference it makes. One thing I might do is goof around with the trailing edges and see what the real difference is between blunt and sharp trailing edges in this application, for example. All of this may be a precursor to designing my next one "from the ground up", if I ever get around to it. Larry Capps brought up another concern, which is dissimilar metal corrosion between 4130 and lead. Never thought of that one! I guess I better find that old materials book and check that chart with the galvanic properties of various subtances. Maybe lead shot and epoxy wouldn't be so bad after all! I haven't actually epoxied them in place yet, so maybe what I'll do it just "capture" them with the "healing" carbon fiber, which would leave them easy to replace later if needed. They're a pretty tight press fit into the foam nose anyway. Carbon fiber is another ingredient in that dissimilar metal brew. I DID have the sense to never bring the aluminum hinges into direct contact with the carbon fiber, for that very reason. As for weight of the rest of the aileron, they're amazingly light. I'm not at home to weigh them, but I think I remember that they're only a little more than a pound each, before the counterweight is attached. They're just two layers of carbon fiber with a quarter inch spruce spar. Dan asked how I determined how much weight I needed. I just supported the aileron at the hinge points and weighed the trailing edge, which was something like 10 ounces. It was 9 inches away from the hinge point (on average). The center of the counterweight in the nose is 2.75 inches from the hinge line. So in order to get the same effect as 10 ounces at 9 inches, I'll need 3.27 times more weight (9 divided by 2.75) to counteract it, which would be 3.27 times 10 ounces, which is 32.7 ounces. Then use the density of the 4130 tubing per inch and the area and density of lead x one inch to get the total weight of the counterweight per inch to figure out how many inches you need. I'm a firm believer in building all parts "in place" and then cutting them free. That way they're always a perfect fit. Seems like an easier way to build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into the wing BEFORE the layup (you'd have to cover the hinge to protect it from epoxy, or even put a piece of wood with duct tape around it to get the spacing right, and leave the hinge out altogether for the layup), so when you cut it out it would be a perfect fit, rather than having to mess around with it to get it perfect again. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:42:26 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-ID: All Van's did for the aileron counterbalance was to use a simple piece of plumbing pipe. Yep, just plumbing pipe that runs the whole length of the aileron. It's primed between the two metals but on a KR you just might not have to fill it with lead, just figure out what weight you need and cut it to length. http://rvflying.tripod.com/counterweight.jpg Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:22:45 -0500 To: , "Mark Langford" From: "David Clinthonre" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-ID: <003001c2bb6b$72c1e640$8c2a4144@frbgva.adelphia.net> Mark, I believe we started construction about the same time, and oddly enough we are at abot the same spot in th eprocess. Good work. Keep it up. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:53 AM Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update > Bob, thanks for the heads-up. You may be right about all of that stuff, but > like you said, he changed a lot of things, and so have I, so who knows what > the end result will be. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I sized my > ailerons by figuring the area of the stocker times the distance of the > centroid from the centerline, and divided my centroid into that number to > get my area, so I have the same "effective" aileron area as the stock KR2S. > Chord effect would be another consideration though. One thing about it is > that if I feel the need, it'll be a real piece of cake to build a completely > new aileron, since all I'd have to do it pull two little pins and one bolt > through the pushrod and my aileron is removed. Same for the flap, except > it's three pins and a pushrod. It would be easy to make them the stock KR > counterweighted way if needed. It might even be a nice data point for > comparison between the two. I have a feeling I'm going to be altering a lot > of things after I get flying, just to see what difference it makes. One > thing I might do is goof around with the trailing edges and see what the > real difference is between blunt and sharp trailing edges in this > application, for example. All of this may be a precursor to designing my > next one "from the ground up", if I ever get around to it. > > Larry Capps brought up another concern, which is dissimilar metal corrosion > between 4130 and lead. Never thought of that one! I guess I better find > that old materials book and check that chart with the galvanic properties of > various subtances. Maybe lead shot and epoxy wouldn't be so bad after all! > I haven't actually epoxied them in place yet, so maybe what I'll do it just > "capture" them with the "healing" carbon fiber, which would leave them easy > to replace later if needed. They're a pretty tight press fit into the > foam nose anyway. Carbon fiber is another ingredient in that dissimilar > metal brew. I DID have the sense to never bring the aluminum hinges into > direct contact with the carbon fiber, for that very reason. As for weight of > the rest of the aileron, they're amazingly light. I'm not at home to weigh > them, but I think I remember that they're only a little more than a pound > each, before the counterweight is attached. They're just two layers of > carbon fiber with a quarter inch spruce spar. > > Dan asked how I determined how much weight I needed. I just supported the > aileron at the hinge points and weighed the trailing edge, which was > something like 10 ounces. It was 9 inches away from the hinge point (on > average). The center of the counterweight in the nose is 2.75 inches from > the hinge line. So in order to get the same effect as 10 ounces at 9 > inches, I'll need 3.27 times more weight (9 divided by 2.75) to counteract > it, which would be 3.27 times 10 ounces, which is 32.7 ounces. Then use the > density of the 4130 tubing per inch and the area and density of lead x one > inch to get the total weight of the counterweight per inch to figure out how > many inches you need. > > I'm a firm believer in building all parts "in place" and then cutting them > free. That way they're always a perfect fit. Seems like an easier way to > build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into the > wing BEFORE the layup (you'd have to cover the hinge to protect it from > epoxy, or even put a piece of wood with duct tape around it to get the > spacing right, and leave the hinge out altogether for the layup), so when > you cut it out it would be a perfect fit, rather than having to mess around > with it to get it perfect again. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:29:30 -0800 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-Id: You'll probably be fine. Lyle always built everything WAY too heavy. His Glasair I weighed 1237 lbs. empty and mine weighs 999. He hated it when I proved to him that my span loading and his were exactly the same despite his longer wing. It's a shame to waste that 4130. I would have used PVC. Hold it straight and the lead will solidify before the PVC can permanently sag. Bob >Bob, thanks for the heads-up. You may be right about all of that stuff, but >like you said, he changed a lot of things, and so have I, so who knows what >the end result will be. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I sized my >ailerons by figuring the area of the stocker times the distance of the >centroid from the centerline, and divided my centroid into that number to >get my area, so I have the same "effective" aileron area as the stock KR2S. >Chord effect would be another consideration though. One thing about it is >that if I feel the need, it'll be a real piece of cake to build a completely >new aileron, since all I'd have to do it pull two little pins and one bolt >through the pushrod and my aileron is removed. Same for the flap, except >it's three pins and a pushrod. It would be easy to make them the stock KR >counterweighted way if needed. It might even be a nice data point for >comparison between the two. I have a feeling I'm going to be altering a lot >of things after I get flying, just to see what difference it makes. One >thing I might do is goof around with the trailing edges and see what the >real difference is between blunt and sharp trailing edges in this >application, for example. All of this may be a precursor to designing my >next one "from the ground up", if I ever get around to it. > >Larry Capps brought up another concern, which is dissimilar metal corrosion >between 4130 and lead. Never thought of that one! I guess I better find >that old materials book and check that chart with the galvanic properties of >various subtances. Maybe lead shot and epoxy wouldn't be so bad after all! >I haven't actually epoxied them in place yet, so maybe what I'll do it just >"capture" them with the "healing" carbon fiber, which would leave them easy >to replace later if needed. They're a pretty tight press fit into the >foam nose anyway. Carbon fiber is another ingredient in that dissimilar >metal brew. I DID have the sense to never bring the aluminum hinges into >direct contact with the carbon fiber, for that very reason. As for weight of >the rest of the aileron, they're amazingly light. I'm not at home to weigh >them, but I think I remember that they're only a little more than a pound >each, before the counterweight is attached. They're just two layers of >carbon fiber with a quarter inch spruce spar. > >Dan asked how I determined how much weight I needed. I just supported the >aileron at the hinge points and weighed the trailing edge, which was >something like 10 ounces. It was 9 inches away from the hinge point (on >average). The center of the counterweight in the nose is 2.75 inches from >the hinge line. So in order to get the same effect as 10 ounces at 9 >inches, I'll need 3.27 times more weight (9 divided by 2.75) to counteract >it, which would be 3.27 times 10 ounces, which is 32.7 ounces. Then use the >density of the 4130 tubing per inch and the area and density of lead x one >inch to get the total weight of the counterweight per inch to figure out how >many inches you need. > >I'm a firm believer in building all parts "in place" and then cutting them >free. That way they're always a perfect fit. Seems like an easier way to >build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into the >wing BEFORE the layup (you'd have to cover the hinge to protect it from >epoxy, or even put a piece of wood with duct tape around it to get the >spacing right, and leave the hinge out altogether for the layup), so when >you cut it out it would be a perfect fit, rather than having to mess around >with it to get it perfect again. > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:31:11 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-ID: <026201c2bb85$c460d500$0100a8c0@TD310> Bob Cringely wrote: > It's a shame to waste that 4130. I would have used PVC. Hold it > straight and the lead will solidify before the PVC can permanently > sag. Well, if you'd have used PVC, you wouldn't have been able to put it in the 3/8" radius on the nose of my aileron, either! But then you wouldn't be worried about dissimilar metal corrosion, I suppose. I guess I just don't think far enough ahead. I may never sleep well again... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:33:48 -0500 To: From: "John & Elaine Roffey" Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Message-ID: <004e01c2bb86$22411ea0$7eb93841@default> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:31 PM. I may never sleep well again... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama Mark, go to bed. It's late. John > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:32:02 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> I've often wondered why Message-Id: <3E22CDE2.00002A.01196@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_EPPN1OW2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: The ailerons and flaps were both halfway constructed "in place", hing= es and=0D all, and then cut out after the wing was laid up. I've often wondered why= =0D you wouldn't want to do that when building the "stock" ailerons per plans= =2E=0D Seems like it would save a lot of work.=0D =0D Mark,=0D =0D I have wondered about that also and the only reason that I can think of, = is that the wing has some twist in it and the aileron would conform to that shape if built on the wing and not if built off the wing. =0D =0D I have to build one of our ailerons over and Jerry has tried to convince= me to build it off the wing, but I am concerned about conforming to the shap= e.=20 You are right, it would be a lot easier to build if off the wing.=0D =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath -Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_EPPN1OW2QL8000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:35:34 -0600 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: building aileron Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030113072013.009e5380@pop.midwest.net> > > I have to build one of our ailerons over and Jerry has tried to convince me >to build it off the wing, but I am concerned about conforming to the shape. >You are right, it would be a lot easier to build if off the wing. >Daniel R. Heath >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I built my ailerons by glassing the wing as one piece and then cutting the aileron out as per plans. I installed the 1/4 inch stock in the wing cut-out and installed the aileron spar with the aileron on the work table. I forgot about the wing "twist" until one day I installed the wing to the airplane. The inboard and outboard ends of the aileron trail edge did not match the wing trail edge! I corrected my error by cutting the glass just behind the aileron spar, clamping the I.B. and O.B. trail edges to match the wing and re-glassing the cut with many layers of the 1.5 oz glass. It's amazing what you can look directly at and never see !!! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:29:17 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> an easier way Message-Id: <3E2375FD.000001.01196@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_TWMOQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Seems like an easier way to=0D build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into = the=0D wing BEFORE the layup=0D =0D Mark,=0D =0D I agree completely. In fact, you could get a board that was thicker by t= he thickness of the aileron spar and a saw blade. Cut the angles and then w= ith one splitting cut, have both spars.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 04:49:43 AM=0D To: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update=0D =0D Bob, thanks for the heads-up. You may be right about all of that stuff, b= ut=0D like you said, he changed a lot of things, and so have I, so who knows wh= at=0D the end result will be. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I sized my=0D ailerons by figuring the area of the stocker times the distance of the=0D centroid from the centerline, and divided my centroid into that number to= =0D get my area, so I have the same "effective" aileron area as the stock KR2= S.=0D Chord effect would be another consideration though. One thing about it is= =0D that if I feel the need, it'll be a real piece of cake to build a complet= ely=0D new aileron, since all I'd have to do it pull two little pins and one bol= t=0D through the pushrod and my aileron is removed. Same for the flap, except=0D it's three pins and a pushrod. It would be easy to make them the stock KR= =0D counterweighted way if needed. It might even be a nice data point for=0D comparison between the two. I have a feeling I'm going to be altering a l= ot=0D of things after I get flying, just to see what difference it makes. One=0D thing I might do is goof around with the trailing edges and see what the=0D real difference is between blunt and sharp trailing edges in this=0D application, for example. All of this may be a precursor to designing my=0D next one "from the ground up", if I ever get around to it.=0D =0D Larry Capps brought up another concern, which is dissimilar metal corrosi= on=0D between 4130 and lead. Never thought of that one! I guess I better find=0D that old materials book and check that chart with the galvanic properties= of=0D various subtances. Maybe lead shot and epoxy wouldn't be so bad after all= !=0D I haven't actually epoxied them in place yet, so maybe what I'll do it ju= st=0D "capture" them with the "healing" carbon fiber, which would leave them ea= sy=0D to replace later if needed. They're a pretty tight press fit into the=0D foam nose anyway. Carbon fiber is another ingredient in that dissimilar=0D metal brew. I DID have the sense to never bring the aluminum hinges into=0D direct contact with the carbon fiber, for that very reason. As for weight= of=0D the rest of the aileron, they're amazingly light. I'm not at home to weig= h=0D them, but I think I remember that they're only a little more than a pound= =0D each, before the counterweight is attached. They're just two layers of=0D carbon fiber with a quarter inch spruce spar.=0D =0D Dan asked how I determined how much weight I needed. I just supported the= =0D aileron at the hinge points and weighed the trailing edge, which was=0D something like 10 ounces. It was 9 inches away from the hinge point (on=0D average). The center of the counterweight in the nose is 2.75 inches from= =0D the hinge line. So in order to get the same effect as 10 ounces at 9=0D inches, I'll need 3.27 times more weight (9 divided by 2.75) to counterac= t=0D it, which would be 3.27 times 10 ounces, which is 32.7 ounces. Then use t= he=0D density of the 4130 tubing per inch and the area and density of lead x on= e=0D inch to get the total weight of the counterweight per inch to figure out = how=0D many inches you need.=0D =0D I'm a firm believer in building all parts "in place" and then cutting the= m=0D free. That way they're always a perfect fit. Seems like an easier way to=0D build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into = the=0D wing BEFORE the layup (you'd have to cover the hinge to protect it from=0D epoxy, or even put a piece of wood with duct tape around it to get the=0D spacing right, and leave the hinge out altogether for the layup), so when= =0D you cut it out it would be a perfect fit, rather than having to mess arou= nd=0D with it to get it perfect again.=0D =0D Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL=0D mailto:langford@hiwaay.net=0D see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford=0D =0D =0D ---------------------------------------------------------------------=0D To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all"=0D =0D To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org =0D For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org=0D =0D See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp=0D or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files=0D =0D =2E=20 --------------Boundary-00=_TWMOQL80000000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:32:26 -0500 To: "'KRnet@mailinglists.org'" From: Anthony Underwood Subject: RE: KR> an easier way Message-ID: <01C2BBA7.8913BD60.xbs4fiverivers@xrxgsn.com> Hey there, You were talking about the difference between sharp and blunt trailing edges on the ail. A few year's back there was a A D on ailrons on the Grumman Tigers, i guess some body let thier bushings get loose or something and maby had some flutter or something, i don't know i didn't read the A D. Well you had two choises, inspect everthing on a regular bases or cut the sharp trailing edge off and square off the trailing edge. I've flown Tigers with and without this done and there is a difference. First, you don't have as much ail. effectiveness, and second the turbulance caused by the blunt end will slow you down a few knot's. The Tiger i flew that had it's ail. cut flew like just a Cherokee, whereas the other Tigers are the best single eng, fixed pitch, fixed gear factory airplane's you can fly. Hope this helps a little. Anthony Underwood -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath [SMTP:DanRH@AllTel.net] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:29 PM To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> an easier way RE: Seems like an easier way to build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into the wing BEFORE the layup Mark, I agree completely. In fact, you could get a board that was thicker by the thickness of the aileron spar and a saw blade. Cut the angles and then with one splitting cut, have both spars. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- From: KRnet@mailinglists.org Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 04:49:43 AM To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> little bitty update Bob, thanks for the heads-up. You may be right about all of that stuff, but like you said, he changed a lot of things, and so have I, so who knows what the end result will be. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I sized my ailerons by figuring the area of the stocker times the distance of the centroid from the centerline, and divided my centroid into that number to get my area, so I have the same "effective" aileron area as the stock KR2S. Chord effect would be another consideration though. One thing about it is that if I feel the need, it'll be a real piece of cake to build a completely new aileron, since all I'd have to do it pull two little pins and one bolt through the pushrod and my aileron is removed. Same for the flap, except it's three pins and a pushrod. It would be easy to make them the stock KR counterweighted way if needed. It might even be a nice data point for comparison between the two. I have a feeling I'm going to be altering a lot of things after I get flying, just to see what difference it makes. One thing I might do is goof around with the trailing edges and see what the real difference is between blunt and sharp trailing edges in this application, for example. All of this may be a precursor to designing my next one "from the ground up", if I ever get around to it. Larry Capps brought up another concern, which is dissimilar metal corrosion between 4130 and lead. Never thought of that one! I guess I better find that old materials book and check that chart with the galvanic properties of various subtances. Maybe lead shot and epoxy wouldn't be so bad after all! I haven't actually epoxied them in place yet, so maybe what I'll do it just "capture" them with the "healing" carbon fiber, which would leave them easy to replace later if needed. They're a pretty tight press fit into the foam nose anyway. Carbon fiber is another ingredient in that dissimilar metal brew. I DID have the sense to never bring the aluminum hinges into direct contact with the carbon fiber, for that very reason. As for weight of the rest of the aileron, they're amazingly light. I'm not at home to weigh them, but I think I remember that they're only a little more than a pound each, before the counterweight is attached. They're just two layers of carbon fiber with a quarter inch spruce spar. Dan asked how I determined how much weight I needed. I just supported the aileron at the hinge points and weighed the trailing edge, which was something like 10 ounces. It was 9 inches away from the hinge point (on average). The center of the counterweight in the nose is 2.75 inches from the hinge line. So in order to get the same effect as 10 ounces at 9 inches, I'll need 3.27 times more weight (9 divided by 2.75) to counteract it, which would be 3.27 times 10 ounces, which is 32.7 ounces. Then use the density of the 4130 tubing per inch and the area and density of lead x one inch to get the total weight of the counterweight per inch to figure out how many inches you need. I'm a firm believer in building all parts "in place" and then cutting them free. That way they're always a perfect fit. Seems like an easier way to build the KR wing "per plans" would be to install the aileron spars into the wing BEFORE the layup (you'd have to cover the hinge to protect it from epoxy, or even put a piece of wood with duct tape around it to get the spacing right, and leave the hinge out altogether for the layup), so when you cut it out it would be a perfect fit, rather than having to mess around with it to get it perfect again. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:32:13 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Message-Id: <3E2376AD.000003.01196@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_P1NOG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Serge, =0D =0D I don't know for sure, but they all seem to smell different, especially t= he Vinyl Ester. Going by that, I think the Rand parts smell like Vinyl Este= r.=20 Sand the part in question and one you know to be Epoxy. Take a real big wiff and see what you think. =0D =0D Assuming you can still think after that.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:11:13 AM=0D To: krnet@mailinglists.org=0D Subject: KR> Polyester or Epoxy?=0D =0D Is there an easy way to tell whether fiberglass has been bonded with=0D polyester resin or Epoxy resin?=0D =0D Serge Vidal=0D KR2 ZS-WEC=0D Johannesburg, South Africa=0D =0D =0D ---------------------------------------------------------------------=0D To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all"=0D =0D To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org =0D For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org=0D =0D See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp=0D or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files=0D =0D =2E=20 --------------Boundary-00=_P1NOG6G0000000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:32:53 -0800 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Message-Id: Most structural parts are epoxy while some fairings and cowls, etc. can be polyester. It really doesn't matter much since a good quality epoxy will bond fine to either resin while no polyester will bond to epoxy. So just use epoxy and you'll be fine. Bob >Is there an easy way to tell whether fiberglass has been bonded with >polyester resin or Epoxy resin? > >Serge Vidal >KR2 ZS-WEC >Johannesburg, South Africa > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:00:36 +1100 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Message-ID: <004001c2bbbc$2bfad5e0$0696dccb@Matheson> Serge. Dan is correct. Sand and smell the difference. Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 See our engines at: http://www.vw-engines.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serge Vidal" To: Sent: 13 January 2003 19:07 Subject: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? > Is there an easy way to tell whether fiberglass has been bonded with > polyester resin or Epoxy resin? > > Serge Vidal > KR2 ZS-WEC > Johannesburg, South Africa > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:47:08 +0200 To: From: "Serge Vidal" Subject: RE: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Message-ID: <000701c2bbcb$98cc0d60$01000001@sergevidal12> Thank's Dan. That's the advise I received from the composite workshop in my company: sand and smell. Just to make sure, I will first sniff some acetone to clean my nose beforehand ;-) Serge -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath [mailto:DanRH@AllTel.net] Sent: 14 January 2003 04:32 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Serge, I don't know for sure, but they all seem to smell different, especially the Vinyl Ester. Going by that, I think the Rand parts smell like Vinyl Ester. Sand the part in question and one you know to be Epoxy. Take a real big wiff and see what you think. Assuming you can still think after that. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- From: KRnet@mailinglists.org Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:11:13 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Polyester or Epoxy? Is there an easy way to tell whether fiberglass has been bonded with polyester resin or Epoxy resin? Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Johannesburg, South rica --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:12:24 -0600 To: "krnet" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: tail templates Message-ID: <002401c2bb69$ff2bb590$0a00a8c0@800Athlon> TailHeads, I've had some requests for "exceptions" to TET's decision to stop selling templates, and a few requests for stuff like templates of the horizontal stabilizer templates that I used on my plane. So I've added a "tail template" pdf file to the bottom of my horizontal stab web page at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kht.html , for anybody that wants it. Put it on a floppy and carry it to your local printer or architectural/CAD plotter place and they can plot them out for you as long as they have a "E" size plotter or an 18" wide roll feed plotter. I'll soon do the same for the other "new airfoil" templates, and I'll let you know when and where I put them. Now we can't be accused of leaving anybody in the lurch that's truly bent on experimenting. As always, use at your own risk, and only after YOU decide that they are suitable for your application... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:06:26 -0500 To: , , From: "Timothy Bellville" Subject: Re: [AirVW]parts for sale Message-ID: <001601c2bb79$ee8c3c40$ae61570c@default> I have a few things I'd like to get off the work bench, that I no longer plan on using. Top starter mount, Dehil Acc. case. $100 Hagar drum brakes(needs rims, will send old ones) $65 Bendix master cyc. (Beachcraft model) $45 ea. $80 pr. Alternator for Dehil (new) $100 , Old stator $30 Regulator ($30 new) ($20 old) $40 both Kabouta 20 amp alternator $50 U.S. Navy Fighter helmit, with O2 mask, needs rewiring for your radio$100 E-mail if interested,or call (419)693-8104 Tim Bellville Sonerai I N2206X Toledo Ohio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:56:56 -0800 To: From: "Ronnie Lee" Subject: Re: KR> Re: [AirVW]parts for sale Message-ID: Hay Tim , I'll buy your flight helmet for a hundred dollars get in touch with me for more details e mail is sloflite@msn.com phone# 615-285-0388 thanks have a great day Ron Draper ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Bellville" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:06 PM Subject: KR> Re: [AirVW]parts for sale > I have a few things I'd like to get off the work bench, that I no longer > plan on using. > Top starter mount, Dehil Acc. case. $100 > Hagar drum brakes(needs rims, will send old ones) $65 > Bendix master cyc. (Beachcraft model) $45 ea. $80 pr. > Alternator for Dehil (new) $100 , Old stator $30 > Regulator ($30 new) ($20 old) $40 both > Kabouta 20 amp alternator $50 > U.S. Navy Fighter helmit, with O2 mask, needs rewiring for your radio$100 > > E-mail if interested,or call (419)693-8104 > Tim Bellville > Sonerai I > N2206X > Toledo Ohio > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:41:11 -0800 To: From: "Lee Van Dyke" Subject: KR2S IN ARIZONA Message-ID: <000e01c2bb7e$c80af570$6401a8c0@familyvjwzatmp> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2BB3B.B9D4A2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF ANY KR2S IN THE PHX ARIZONA AREA?? PLEASE EMAIL ME. LEE VAN DYKE MESA AZ 480-380-3456 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2BB3B.B9D4A2A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:31:01 -0500 To: From: "John & Elaine Roffey" Subject: Re: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA Message-ID: <004801c2bb85$bf0649a0$7eb93841@default> Subject: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF ANY KR2S IN THE PHX ARIZONA AREA?? PLEASE EMAIL ME. Hi Lee. I just had to answer. I live in Michigan, but have a condo in Scottdale and we are spending more and more time there each year so it will only be a matter of time before we are permanent AZs. I am building a 2S and hope to have it done before my retirement and the move to AZ. There has been a number of builders from the Phoenix area here on the net over the years, but I can't say they are still with us. Bill Stars is flying a KR2 up in Prescott and there is a fellow in Tucson flying another KR2, but he isn't on the net. I hope some one local surfaces in responce to your inquiry. John Roffey jeroffey@tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:54:23 -0700 (MST) To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: John.Holeman@asu.edu Subject: Re: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA Message-id: <1042520063.3e2397ff71308@webmail.asu.edu> This probably doesn't count, but I'm in the "wading-through-the-plans-asking- myself-what-I've-gotten-myself-into" phase, that is, no real plane yet, and I'm living in Tempe. Of course, I moved here to attend grad school, so I'm still trying to figure out just how I can budget both money and time to get started on it... Quoting John & Elaine Roffey : > > > Subject: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA > > > DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF ANY KR2S IN THE PHX ARIZONA AREA?? > PLEASE EMAIL ME. > > Hi Lee. I just had to answer. > I live in Michigan, but have a condo in Scottdale and we are spending > more > and more time there each year so it will only be a matter of time before > we > are permanent AZs. > > I am building a 2S and hope to have it done before my retirement and > the > move to AZ. > > There has been a number of builders from the Phoenix area here on the > net > over the years, but I can't say they are still with us. > > Bill Stars is flying a KR2 up in Prescott and there is a fellow in > Tucson > flying another KR2, but he isn't on the net. > > I hope some one local surfaces in responce to your inquiry. > > John Roffey > jeroffey@tir.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:14:50 -0800 To: From: "Bob Sauer" Subject: Re: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA Message-ID: <006c01c2bb8b$de8fa7c0$3196bbd0@home> Lee, I am moving my KR2S project to Glendale Airport about Feb 1 and will be finishing it there. I lack only assembly of the major components. I will put your address in my book. Will contact you when on-line in Phoenix. Bob Sauer Las Vegas From: resauer@softcom.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:19:00 -0700 To: From: "wstarrs" Subject: Re: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA Message-ID: <002201c2bb94$d48c17a0$9200a8c0@bstarrs> I have a KR 1 but will be happy to share with any one in the area.ill Starrs, Prescott, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Elaine Roffey" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:31 PM Subject: Re: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA > > > Subject: KR> KR2S IN ARIZONA > > > DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF ANY KR2S IN THE PHX ARIZONA AREA?? > PLEASE EMAIL ME. > > Hi Lee. I just had to answer. > I live in Michigan, but have a condo in Scottdale and we are spending more > and more time there each year so it will only be a matter of time before we > are permanent AZs. > > I am building a 2S and hope to have it done before my retirement and the > move to AZ. > > There has been a number of builders from the Phoenix area here on the net > over the years, but I can't say they are still with us. > > Bill Stars is flying a KR2 up in Prescott and there is a fellow in Tucson > flying another KR2, but he isn't on the net. > > I hope some one local surfaces in responce to your inquiry. > > John Roffey > jeroffey@tir.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:44:02 -0600 To: From: "Rex Ellington" Subject: Re: KR> Boat stage project for sale Message-ID: <002e01c2bbe3$e1840090$51353a41@D6R1QJ11> Robert: Suggest you Email the question to Larry B. and ask him to measure length from firewall to rudder hinges. Rex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stone" To: Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: Re: KR> Boat stage project for sale > Rex, > Looks like you covered everything except, is it a KR-2, KR-2S or a > KR-1???? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rex Ellington" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 4:55 PM > Subject: KR> Boat stage project for sale > > > Netters near Oklahoma > > Today, I had opportunity to examine the project of a deceased builder in the > Norman, OK area. > For location, call up Maps and look for intersection of Norman, OK street > Alameda and 60th Ave SE. > > It is taildragger configuration out of the boat stage. Horizontal and > vertical tail are in place with > original KR hinges. Tail wheel is mounted. > > Dual-stick are mounted, with some fittings for cable loop. Cable and > fittings there for controls. > Other items such as: hinge strips, Matco brake cylinders, Diehl gears > (mounted), Matco brakes > with new tires and tubes, rudder pedals are crossmounted for brakes on both > sides, original > fiberglass, forward and rear spar mounted, WAFs on hand, plus original green > foam. > > Owner would like to sell whole thing as a project. > > Contact Larry B. at B8203@Aol.com. > > Rex Ellington > Norman, OK > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************