From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 7 Mar 2003 02:07:06 -0000 Issue 650 Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:07 PM krnet Digest 7 Mar 2003 02:07:06 -0000 Issue 650 Topics (messages 15631 through 15650): Re: KRs and RVs 15631 by: virgnvs.juno.com 15644 by: Sylvester Stys Re: Center stick 15632 by: Ronevogt.aol.com Fuselage. 15633 by: Dr. S. Tsabari 15634 by: Alexander Birca (RMD) 15635 by: Dr. S. Tsabari 15636 by: Justin 15646 by: Dan Heath 15649 by: virgnvs.juno.com Re: A four place KR 15637 by: Justin 15638 by: Robert Stone 15640 by: Dana Overall 15648 by: Brian Kraut Re: Composite Fuselage. 15639 by: Scott Cable 15641 by: Dr. S. Tsabari 15645 by: Frank Dungan Sun & Fun....not RV. 15642 by: Dana Overall e-mail. 15643 by: Dr. S. Tsabari Re: KR2 15647 by: Mark Jones 15650 by: Dan Heath Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:01:32 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> KRs and RVs Message-ID: <20030306.121027.-455953.5.virgnvs@juno.com> O K, Virg On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:05:45 EST WMartensJr@aol.com writes: > Although the Turner T-40 is a great performing aircraft, it's a > 2-place and I > think what he was saying is he wanted a four place type. > > Walt > > > In a message dated 3/5/2003 10:53:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, > virgnvs@juno.com writes: > > > > > > Check out the Turner T-40A, Virg > > > > On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:30:58 -0500 (EST) Brian Kraut > > writes: > > > I tried to put a deposit on the RV-10 at Sun-N-Fun last year and > they > > > said no way. I emailed them last week and they said they may be > > > > ready to take deposits in a few months. They are also supposed > to > > > have the cockpit mockup at SNF this year. > > > > > > I have a wife and a son and the KR is to keep me flying for the > next > > > few years while I build a four place. > > > > > > I am still wrestling with the idea of doing an RV-10 verses > > > continuing my design on a 4 place with the same general size and > > > > performance of a Lancair, but the easy building method of > spruce, > > > foam, and glass like the KR. > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:52:07 -0600 To: From: "Sylvester Stys" Subject: Re: KR> KRs and RVs Message-ID: <003a01c2e42a$a2ea2b10$95cb540c@yourwg5n33dutv> Dan, Check out the Eggenfellner Subaru non-certified,insurable firewall forward "complete" for RV's. 150+ HP w/turbo. Syl,395JT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:15:46 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Ronevogt@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Center stick Message-ID: --part1_b0.359804c9.2b98dc42_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed: I have a dual stick install right now. It is a professionally manufactored unit that cost over $200 new. Are you interested in a trade? RV --part1_b0.359804c9.2b98dc42_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:23:38 +0100 To: From: "Dr. S. Tsabari" Subject: Fuselage. Message-ID: <007c01c2e405$2171c9f0$ee02a8c0@piv226> ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C2E40D.81DC6E50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0079_01C2E40D.81DC6E50" ------=_NextPart_001_0079_01C2E40D.81DC6E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GhiaccioHi Guys, I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite = instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to = spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with = me. Best Regards to all, Dr. Tsabari Shahar 0039.0365.761000 Italy ------=_NextPart_001_0079_01C2E40D.81DC6E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ghiaccio
Hi Guys,
I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to = make:
Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more = composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances = (firewall to=20 spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous?
As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry = with=20 me.
Best Regards to all,
Dr. Tsabari Shahar
0039.0365.761000
Italy

 

------=_NextPart_001_0079_01C2E40D.81DC6E50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C2E40D.81DC6E50-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:38:09 +0100 To: "'KRnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. Message-ID: <9CC6CC2973F2D211B3580008C70DB2D205BDDC02@eatvint903.dsa.ericsson.se> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E406.A80F62B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Shahar, look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an outstanding job, and now he is selling his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. BR, Alex -----Original Message----- From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Fuselage. Hi Guys, I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. Best Regards to all, Dr. Tsabari Shahar 0039.0365.761000 Italy ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E406.A80F62B4-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:17:44 +0100 To: From: "Volucer" Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage. Message-ID: <00a801c2e40c$af919790$ee02a8c0@piv226> thank you Alex , I am translating the site and will read it later this evening. Any way I am looking for technical comments, I know that the KRnet have a lot of valid expert that can comment it professionally. I thought about building the structure with only composite no wood boat. I will appreciate any comments even such as "you are mad". Best regards, Shahar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. > Hi Shahar, > look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ > I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an outstanding job, and now he is selling > his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. > > BR, Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: KR> Fuselage. > > > Hi Guys, > I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: > Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? > As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. > Best Regards to all, > Dr. Tsabari Shahar > 0039.0365.761000 > Italy > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:54:56 -0600 To: From: "Justin" Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage. Message-ID: <000c01c2e401$1e269360$dcda1818@computer> I bet that fuselage even if it was just sheeted with plywood would be way stronger than the orginal design. I am going to foam and glass the inside of my first 2 bays to help witht he extra weight of the corvair. Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Volucer" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:17 PM Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage. > thank you Alex , I am translating the site and will read it later this > evening. > > Any way I am looking for technical comments, I know that the KRnet have a > lot of valid expert that can comment it professionally. > I thought about building the structure with only composite no wood boat. > > I will appreciate any comments even such as "you are mad". > Best regards, > Shahar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:38 PM > Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. > > > > Hi Shahar, > > look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ > > I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an > outstanding job, and now he is selling > > his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. > > > > BR, Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it] > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM > > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: KR> Fuselage. > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: > > Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite > instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar > and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? > > As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. > > Best Regards to all, > > Dr. Tsabari Shahar > > 0039.0365.761000 > > Italy > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:35:22 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage. Message-Id: <3E67F75A.000001.01184@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_Y2VCQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dr. Dean did just that, but never completed it, as far as I know. I woul= d be sure that there is some information about it either in the archives or= on Mark L.s site.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 09:26:37 AM=0D To: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Subject: KR> Fuselage.=0D =0D Hi Guys,=0D I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make:=0D Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spa= r and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous?=0D As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me= =2E=0D Best Regards to all,=0D Dr. Tsabari Shahar=0D 0039.0365.761000=0D Italy=0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_Y2VCQL80000000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:21:23 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage. Message-ID: <20030306.193050.-565341.1.virgnvs@juno.com> ----__JNP_000_178d.5b05.6995 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_7bdb.0a01.5618 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_7bdb.0a01.5618 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been done in S.A. This is an EXPERIMENTAL plane. Just do not call it a K R, Virg On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:23:38 +0100 "Dr. S. Tsabari" writes: Hi Guys, I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. Best Regards to all, Dr. Tsabari Shahar 0039.0365.761000 Italy Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ----__JNP_000_7bdb.0a01.5618 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Location: file://C:\Programmi\File comuni\Microsoft Shared\Elementi decorativi\ Ghiaccio
        This has been done in S.A. = This=20 is an EXPERIMENTAL plane. Just do not call it a K R, Virg
 
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:23:38 +0100 "Dr. S. Tsabari" <volucer@tin.it> writes:
Hi Guys,
I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make:
Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more= =20 composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (= firewall=20 to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous?
As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry = with=20 me.
Best Regards to all,
Dr. Tsabari Shahar
0039.0365.761000
Italy

 

 

Virgil N. Salisbury=20 AMSOIL
WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY
----__JNP_000_7bdb.0a01.5618-- ----__JNP_000_178d.5b05.6995-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:56:19 -0600 To: From: "Justin" Subject: Re: KR> A four place KR Message-ID: <001701c2e401$4f3a5b80$dcda1818@computer> A nice little twin KR4 with (2) corvairs hanging out ont he wing would be nice but would it still give the speed as the orginal KR? Who knows. Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stone" To: "KRNet" Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: KR> A four place KR Netters, For those of you who might be interested Ken Rand was working on the plans for a four place KR twin when he lost his life returning home from Sun & Fun. First offering was of course the KR-1, then the KR-2 and his company had designed and produced a sea plane version which never worked out. The four place twin was to be his 4th design. His idea was to make available to home builders the cheapest four place twin on the market. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX rstone4@hot.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 14:08:56 -0600 To: From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Re: KR> A four place KR Message-ID: <001f01c2e41c$382bb180$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> Justin, I think maybe a little faster, like 210+ Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:56 AM Subject: Re: KR> A four place KR > A nice little twin KR4 with (2) corvairs hanging out ont he wing would be > nice but would it still give the speed as the orginal KR? Who knows. > > Justin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Stone" > To: "KRNet" > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:11 AM > Subject: KR> A four place KR > > > Netters, > For those of you who might be interested Ken Rand was working on the > plans for a four place KR twin when he lost his life returning home from Sun > & Fun. First offering was of course the KR-1, then the KR-2 and his company > had designed and produced a sea plane version which never worked out. The > four place twin was to be his 4th design. His idea was to make available to > home builders the cheapest four place twin on the market. > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX > rstone4@hot.rr.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:56:38 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> A four place KR Message-ID: I didn't make that comment in jest. At out beer blast at Mark's a couple weeks ago we found a website that had a four place KR on it, single engine, just fat and long. It was off KR plans. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:11:55 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Brian Kraut Subject: Re: KR> A four place KR Message-ID: <3E67E3CB.2060409@earthlink.net> Do you have the web site address? Dana Overall wrote: > I didn't make that comment in jest. At out beer blast at Mark's a > couple weeks ago we found a website that had a four place KR on it, > single engine, just fat and long. It was off KR plans. > > > > Dana Overall > 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host > Richmond, KY > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For > additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:10:04 -0800 (PST) To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Scott Cable Subject: Re: KR>Composite Fuselage. Message-ID: <20030306201004.34976.qmail@web40804.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1812122732-1046981404=:34307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dr. Shahar, Welcome to the KR net, we would hope that you would decide to build a KR, and please don't view any comments that netter's make as personal, it happens (rarely but it does happen). While I worked for McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Company, I worked on a brand new helicopter design named the MD900 Explorer (originally it was called MDX). The MD900 is a NOTAR based helicopter (NOTAR stands for No Tail Rotor) design. NOTAR uses a carbon fiber circulation -air tailboom that provides 90% of the required anti-torque at hover. During the initial design of this helicopter, we explored the idea of using first, all composite fuselage, then composite skins on the fuselage. After almost a year of study, MDHC decided against even using composite skins. Why? The biggest technical hurdle was the MD900 was to be certified as fully IFR capable, which meant that the aircraft had to be able to withstand lightening strike(s). The way to dissipate the energy from a lightening strike was to imbed metal screen between the skin laminates, and then electrically bond the composite skin, metal screen and structure. This proved to exceed the weight allocation, and cost allocation targets, so a more conventional approach (metal skins, metal frames) was used for this aircraft. Bottom line? Carbon fiber and lightning strikes don't mix well together, and if you were to make your primary fuselage from this material, it could end up with you being at the end of a debris trail. Of course you can ignore this fact only if you can guarantee that lightning will never hit your aircraft. While making a small homebuilt aircraft completely out of composite materials seems like an exciting and logical thing to do (there are many designs out there like the Dragonfly for instance), but there are many hidden disadvantages to actually doing so. Generally speaking, aircraft like the Dragonfly must be hangered because exposure to the sun can cause blistering of the laminate. This then causes major structural compromise(s). It takes a great deal of time to build an all composite aircraft because of all of the sanding required. The KR series offers a brilliant compromise between performance, speed of assembly and structural properties. Jeanette Rand offers many premolded parts which are of the highest quality and greatly reduce build time. The plans built mahogany or birch plywood fuselage skin over a spruce ladder offers ease and speed of building. The KR also has 30 years of flying experience on this design technique which has been copied numerous times. It is my understanding that there has never been a KR lost because of a structural failure. So why compromise a proven design? The performance of this little aircraft is nothing short of phenominal when you consider the costs of building one. I originally bought plans for the Barracuda, which is all wood, tri-gear 2 place aircraft. It uses the Continental IO-540 and a constant speed propeller. You could build 3 really nice KR's for the price of the Barracuda's engine and propeller alone. With a difference of 40 mph cruise speed, it makes no economic sense to build that aircraft. So the question now becomes: Do you want to fly or or do you really like sanding? Volucer wrote: thank you Alex , I am translating the site and will read it later this evening. Any way I am looking for technical comments, I know that the KRnet have a lot of valid expert that can comment it professionally. I thought about building the structure with only composite no wood boat. I will appreciate any comments even such as "you are mad". Best regards, Shahar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. > Hi Shahar, > look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ > I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an outstanding job, and now he is selling > his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. > > BR, Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: KR> Fuselage. > > > Hi Guys, > I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: > Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? > As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. > Best Regards to all, > Dr. Tsabari Shahar > 0039.0365.761000 > Italy > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cable1@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1812122732-1046981404=:34307-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:00:17 +0100 To: From: "Dr. Tsabari Shahar" Subject: Re: KR>Composite Fuselage. Message-ID: <00c301c2e423$654a9490$dc146850@VAIO> Thank you: Justin and many thanks for the long letter of Scott (interesting). I was thinking about building the fuselage sides from foam instead of spruce covering them with carbon sheet turn them over and cover them from the other side. the carbon sheet will fill the space between them from bout sides, so I won't need to apply the wood skins. As I told before doing any thing I would like to hear more opinions. Thank you all, Dr. Shahar Tsabari Tel. +39.0365.761000 Fax +39.0365.761900 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Cable" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Re: KR>Composite Fuselage. > > Dr. Shahar, > Welcome to the KR net, we would hope that you would decide to build a KR, and please don't view any comments that netter's make as personal, it happens (rarely but it does happen). > While I worked for McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Company, I worked on a brand new helicopter design named the MD900 Explorer (originally it was called MDX). The MD900 is a NOTAR based helicopter (NOTAR stands for No Tail Rotor) design. NOTAR uses a carbon fiber circulation -air tailboom that provides 90% of the required anti-torque at hover. During the initial design of this helicopter, we explored the idea of using first, all composite fuselage, then composite skins on the fuselage. After almost a year of study, MDHC decided against even using composite skins. Why? The biggest technical hurdle was the MD900 was to be certified as fully IFR capable, which meant that the aircraft had to be able to withstand lightening strike(s). The way to dissipate the energy from a lightening strike was to imbed metal screen between the skin laminates, and then electrically bond the composite skin, metal screen and structure. This proved to exceed the weight allocation, and cost allocation ta > rgets, so a more convent > ional approach (metal skins, metal frames) was used for this aircraft. > Bottom line? Carbon fiber and lightning strikes don't mix well together, and if you were to make your primary fuselage from this material, it could end up with you being at the end of a debris trail. Of course you can ignore this fact only if you can guarantee that lightning will never hit your aircraft. > While making a small homebuilt aircraft completely out of composite materials seems like an exciting and logical thing to do (there are many designs out there like the Dragonfly for instance), but there are many hidden disadvantages to actually doing so. Generally speaking, aircraft like the Dragonfly must be hangered because exposure to the sun can cause blistering of the laminate. This then causes major structural compromise(s). > It takes a great deal of time to build an all composite aircraft because of all of the sanding required. The KR series offers a brilliant compromise between performance, speed of assembly and structural properties. > Jeanette Rand offers many premolded parts which are of the highest quality and greatly reduce build time. The plans built mahogany or birch plywood fuselage skin over a spruce ladder offers ease and speed of building. The KR also has 30 years of flying experience on this design technique which has been copied numerous times. It is my understanding that there has never been a KR lost because of a structural failure. So why compromise a proven design? > The performance of this little aircraft is nothing short of phenominal when you consider the costs of building one. I originally bought plans for the Barracuda, which is all wood, tri-gear 2 place aircraft. It uses the Continental IO-540 and a constant speed propeller. You could build 3 really nice KR's for the price of the Barracuda's engine and propeller alone. With a difference of 40 mph cruise speed, it makes no economic sense to build that aircraft. > So the question now becomes: Do you want to fly or or do you really like sanding? > > Volucer wrote: thank you Alex , I am translating the site and will read it later this > evening. > > Any way I am looking for technical comments, I know that the KRnet have a > lot of valid expert that can comment it professionally. > I thought about building the structure with only composite no wood boat. > > I will appreciate any comments even such as "you are mad". > Best regards, > Shahar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:38 PM > Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. > > > > Hi Shahar, > > look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ > > I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an > outstanding job, and now he is selling > > his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. > > > > BR, Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it] > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM > > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: KR> Fuselage. > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: > > Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite > instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar > and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? > > As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with me. > > Best Regards to all, > > Dr. Tsabari Shahar > > 0039.0365.761000 > > Italy > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Scott Cable > KR-2S # 735 > Linden, MI > s2cable1@yahoo.com > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:02:12 -0600 To: From: "Frank Dungan" Subject: Re: KR>Composite Fuselage. Message-Id: Beechcraft (Raytheon) currently builds two all composit aircraft. The = carbon fiber has very light weight conductive strands woven in by the = manufacture that passes all lighting tests. Beech Starship was the first = certified plane to use all composit, and did in-deed have a metal screen = buried within the plies, and it was heavy and expensive. There are other = concerns in working with carbon fiber though that make it tough to do in a = garage, but the lighting issue is solved. fd >>> s2cable1@yahoo.com 03/06/03 02:10PM >>> Dr. Shahar,=20 Welcome to the KR net, we would hope that you would decide to build a KR, = and please don't view any comments that netter's make as personal, it = happens (rarely but it does happen). =20 While I worked for McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Company, I worked on a = brand new helicopter design named the MD900 Explorer (originally it was = called MDX). The MD900 is a NOTAR based helicopter (NOTAR stands for No = Tail Rotor) design. NOTAR uses a carbon fiber circulation -air tailboom = that provides 90% of the required anti-torque at hover. During the = initial design of this helicopter, we explored the idea of using first, = all composite fuselage, then composite skins on the fuselage. After = almost a year of study, MDHC decided against even using composite skins. = Why? The biggest technical hurdle was the MD900 was to be certified as = fully IFR capable, which meant that the aircraft had to be able to = withstand lightening strike(s). The way to dissipate the energy from a = lightening strike was to imbed metal screen between the skin laminates, = and then electrically bond the composite skin, metal screen and structure. = This proved to exceed the weight allocation, and cost allo! cation targets, so a more conventional approach (metal skins, metal = frames) was used for this aircraft. =20 Bottom line? Carbon fiber and lightning strikes don't mix well together, = and if you were to make your primary fuselage from this material, it could = end up with you being at the end of a debris trail. Of course you can = ignore this fact only if you can guarantee that lightning will never hit = your aircraft.=20 While making a small homebuilt aircraft completely out of composite = materials seems like an exciting and logical thing to do (there are many = designs out there like the Dragonfly for instance), but there are many = hidden disadvantages to actually doing so. Generally speaking, aircraft = like the Dragonfly must be hangered because exposure to the sun can cause = blistering of the laminate. This then causes major structural compromise(s= ).=20 It takes a great deal of time to build an all composite aircraft because = of all of the sanding required. The KR series offers a brilliant = compromise between performance, speed of assembly and structural properties= .=20 Jeanette Rand offers many premolded parts which are of the highest = quality and greatly reduce build time. The plans built mahogany or birch = plywood fuselage skin over a spruce ladder offers ease and speed of = building. The KR also has 30 years of flying experience on this design = technique which has been copied numerous times. It is my understanding = that there has never been a KR lost because of a structural failure. So = why compromise a proven design?=20 The performance of this little aircraft is nothing short of phenominal = when you consider the costs of building one. I originally bought plans for = the Barracuda, which is all wood, tri-gear 2 place aircraft. It uses the = Continental IO-540 and a constant speed propeller. You could build 3 = really nice KR's for the price of the Barracuda's engine and propeller = alone. With a difference of 40 mph cruise speed, it makes no economic = sense to build that aircraft.=20 So the question now becomes: Do you want to fly or or do you really like = sanding?=20 =20 Volucer wrote: thank you Alex , I am translating the = site and will read it later this evening. Any way I am looking for technical comments, I know that the KRnet have a lot of valid expert that can comment it professionally. I thought about building the structure with only composite no wood boat. I will appreciate any comments even such as "you are mad". Best regards, Shahar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Birca (RMD)"=20 To:=20 Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: KR> Fuselage. > Hi Shahar, > look to this site: http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/=20 > I guess this is the best answer to you question. Eduardo has done an outstanding job, and now he is selling > his own drawings and description of technique for 150$. > > BR, Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. S. Tsabari [mailto:volucer@tin.it]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org=20 > Subject: KR> Fuselage. > > > Hi Guys, > I am new to KR and to aerodynamic but I have a question to make: > Can I change fuselage shape (much rounded) and materials (more composite instead of wood) but conserving the length and distances (firewall to spar and spar to tail) will make the plane dangerous? > As I am new to the KRnet I hope that no body is going to be angry with = me. > Best Regards to all, > Dr. Tsabari Shahar > 0039.0365.761000 > Italy > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org=20 For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org=20 See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp=20 or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cable1@yahoo.com=20 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:02:44 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Sun & Fun....not RV. Message-ID: How about our regular get together at Sun & Fun. I'm thinking let's get together somewhere before the airshow on Sat. My thoughts would be to bring along your favorite soda (therefor I'm bringing beer) and some brats. After the airshow we go to someone's campsite (Mine, Mark Langford and Doug Steen's, see we may fly down in Doug's non KR airplane) and pop a soda and eat some brats. Only problem with this is we will allow talk other than KR. What do you think gang. Sorry if I wasted time. If I did, smack me with a aviation grade AN-Wetnoddle3-3.5. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:11:02 +0100 To: From: "volucer" Subject: e-mail. Message-ID: <00e901c2e424$e52aacd0$dc146850@VAIO> ------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C2E42D.462B76B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00E6_01C2E42D.462B76B0" ------=_NextPart_001_00E6_01C2E42D.462B76B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GlacierI am sorry for my e-mail that was not synchronized between lap = top and desktop. Now it is synchronized as VOLUCER. thanks, Dr. Shahar Tsabari Tel. +39.0365.761000 Fax +39.0365.761900 ------=_NextPart_001_00E6_01C2E42D.462B76B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glacier
I am sorry for my e-mail that was not synchronized between lap top = and=20 desktop.
Now it is synchronized as VOLUCER.
thanks,
Dr. Shahar Tsabari
Tel. +39.0365.761000
Fax = +39.0365.761900

 

------=_NextPart_001_00E6_01C2E42D.462B76B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C2E42D.462B76B0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:06:39 -0600 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Fw: KR2 Message-ID: <002b01c2e43d$6d3011c0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Hello All, Today, in my travels, I stopped by the EAA Museum to discuss moving the KR plane from the FAA building to the Museum. Adam Smith who is the Museum Director and in charge of what is displayed and not, was in another location on the EAA grounds and was contacted by phone. He and I had a lengthy discussion on the KR, moving it to the museum, and properly displaying a plaque to give the KR the recognition it deserves. It seems that the Museum is actually overloaded with planes as they have them located all over the grounds in various buildings. Adam explained that the EAA is actually going to disperse of about 50 or so planes to other Museums where they can be properly presented to the public. The KR, in the FAA building, is not one that is going to be given to another museum. Adam stated at this time, moving the KR plane to the Museum was not in the plans. He was however, very receptive to the idea of displaying a plaque with the KR in the FAA Pavilion. The EAA will completely fund this project and have it ready for this year's AirVenture. What he wants form us is some history on the birth of the KR and it's impact on experimental aviation. Especially how Ken Rand pioneered the way for composite structure. We should also include any photos of Ken Rand with his original planes. Please read the e-mail below which Adam sent to me after I left EAA today. Any and all comments and help any of you are willing to provide to me would be greatly appreciated as I continue with this effort. Thanks Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Smith" To: Cc: "Sue Lurvey" Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: KR2 Dear Mark Jones I enjoyed our telephone conversation today about KR airplanes. As I suggested it is hard for us to plan to put the airplane in the Museum at this time, but there are some things we can accomplish that will help increase its profile. The first thing I would like to do is get it on our website www.airventuremuseum.org If you go in the Collections section, under "Our Aircraft" you will see a list of airplanes we are building. These have almost all been done with the help of volunteers. If you can help do a page about the KR2 please contact Sue Lurvey our Library and Archives Manager (I am copying Sue on this) she will help you through the process. Once we have locked down that information we can do a plaque to put with it at the FAA building. Regards Adam E Smith Museum Director EAA AirVenture Museum Phone: (920) 426-4842 Fax: (920) 426-6765 www.airventuremuseum.org www.b17.org www.timelessvoices.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:11:49 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Fw: KR2 Message-Id: <3E682A15.000001.01184@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_P35DQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need to let Janet know that this is happening. I am sure that she wil= l be very pleased as it is long overdue.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet@mailinglists.org=0D Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 04:05:31 PM=0D To: KR-Net=0D Subject: KR> Fw: KR2=0D =0D Hello All,=0D Today, in my travels, I stopped by the EAA Museum to discuss moving the K= R=0D plane from the FAA building to the Museum. Adam Smith who is the Museum=0D Director and in charge of what is displayed and not, was in another locat= ion=0D on the EAA grounds and was contacted by phone. He and I had a lengthy=0D discussion on the KR, moving it to the museum, and properly displaying a=0D plaque to give the KR the recognition it deserves. It seems that the Muse= um=0D is actually overloaded with planes as they have them located all over the= =0D grounds in various buildings. Adam explained that the EAA is actually goi= ng=0D to disperse of about 50 or so planes to other Museums where they can be=0D properly presented to the public. The KR, in the FAA building, is not one= =0D that is going to be given to another museum. Adam stated at this time,=0D moving the KR plane to the Museum was not in the plans. He was however, v= ery=0D receptive to the idea of displaying a plaque with the KR in the FAA=0D Pavilion. The EAA will completely fund this project and have it ready for= =0D this year's AirVenture. What he wants form us is some history on the birt= h=0D of the KR and it's impact on experimental aviation. Especially how Ken Ra= nd=0D pioneered the way for composite structure. We should also include any pho= tos=0D of Ken Rand with his original planes. Please read the e-mail below which=0D Adam sent to me after I left EAA today. Any and all comments and help any= of=0D you are willing to provide to me would be greatly appreciated as I contin= ue=0D with this effort. Thanks=0D =0D Mark Jones (N886MJ)=0D Wales, WI USA=0D E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com=0D Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at=0D http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html=0D =0D =0D ----- Original Message -----=0D From: "Adam Smith" =0D To: =0D Cc: "Sue Lurvey" =0D Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:43 AM=0D Subject: KR2=0D =0D =0D Dear Mark Jones=0D =0D I enjoyed our telephone conversation today about KR airplanes.=0D =0D As I suggested it is hard for us to plan to put the airplane in the Museu= m=0D at this time, but there are some things we can accomplish that will help=0D increase its profile. The first thing I would like to do is get it on our= =0D website www.airventuremuseum.org=0D =0D If you go in the Collections section, under "Our Aircraft" you will see a= =0D list of airplanes we are building. These have almost all been done with t= he=0D help of volunteers. If you can help do a page about the KR2 please contac= t=0D Sue Lurvey our Library and Archives Manager (I am copying Sue on this) sh= e=0D will help you through the process.=0D =0D Once we have locked down that information we can do a plaque to put with = it=0D at the FAA building.=0D =0D Regards=0D =0D Adam E Smith=0D Museum Director=0D EAA AirVenture Museum=0D Phone: (920) 426-4842=0D Fax: (920) 426-6765=0D www.airventuremuseum.org=0D www.b17.org=0D www.timelessvoices.org=0D =0D =0D =0D ---------------------------------------------------------------------=0D To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all"=0D =0D To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org =0D For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org=0D =0D See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp=0D or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files=0D =0D =2E=20 --------------Boundary-00=_P35DQL80000000000000-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************