Received: from [66.113.66.18] by bou2100 (ArGoSoft Mail Server Freeware, Version 1.70 (1.7.0.3)); Sat, 31 May 2003 12:09:46 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19MBaF-000MUD-01; Sat, 31 May 2003 12:00:03 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============57406749241725397==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: krnet-request@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 52, Issue 1 To: krnet@mylist.net X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:00:03 -0700 --===============57406749241725397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: KRnet Digest, Vol 52, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." --===============57406749241725397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Today's Topics (11 messages) Today's Topics: 1. Re: stick bias 2. Re: stick bias (Mark Langford) 3. Re: stick bias (Dan Heath) 4. Vertical card compass (JIM VANCE) 5. Re: Vertical card compass (Dan Heath) 6. Rotax? (RL) 7. pushrod bias (John and Janet Martindale) 8. Vertical Card Compass (JIM VANCE) 9. Re: vert. card compass (Timothy Bellville) 10. Re: Kr Flaps (Timothy Bellville) 11. Forward c of g (Darren Pond) --===============57406749241725397== Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="===============66747138340263534==" MIME-Version: 1.0 --===============66747138340263534== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:36:51 EDT From: AviationMech@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>stick bias Message-ID: <20.1253fc41.2c0928f3@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_20.1253fc41.2c0928f3_boundary" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 --part1_20.1253fc41.2c0928f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/29/2003 9:22:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bearsfrizz@hotmail.com writes: > now the bias Perhaps I'm missing the point. If the pivot for the elevator and the pivot for the aileron is attached at the same point, as mine are, the elevator cables will try to twist forward of the aft spar mounted pulley assembly, any time the stick is moved for aileron input. As the stick is pulled for and aft, the aileron cable or push/pull rod set will move for and aft. In both cases, the stick movement in one direction does not affect the movement of the other control surface. I guess I fail to see how the bias is induced. Help me out Orma AKA AviationMech KR-2 N110LR 1984 to Present www.members.aol.com/aviationmech --part1_20.1253fc41.2c0928f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/29/2003 9:22:28 AM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, bearsfrizz@hotmail.com writes:

now the bias

Perhaps I'm missing the point. If the pivot for the elevator and the p= ivot for the aileron is attached at the same point, as mine are, the elevato= r cables will try to twist forward of the aft spar mounted pulle= y assembly, any time the stick is moved for aileron input. As the stic= k is pulled for and aft, the aileron cable or push/pull rod set will move fo= r and aft. In both cases, the stick movement in one direction does not= affect the movement of the other control surface. I guess I fail to s= ee how the bias is induced. Help me out
Orma AKA AviationMech
KR-2 N110LR
1984 to Present
www.members.aol.com/aviationmech --part1_20.1253fc41.2c0928f3_boundary-- --===============66747138340263534== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:00:34 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>stick bias Message-ID: <010901c326f6$e5c30740$1202a8c0@basement> References: <20.1253fc41.2c0928f3@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0106_01C326CC.FC7BEDF0" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C326CC.FC7BEDF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Orma wrote: >>Perhaps I'm missing the point. If the pivot for the elevator and the = pivot for the aileron is attached at the same point, as mine are, the = elevator cables will try to twist forward of the aft spar mounted = pulley assembly, any time the stick is moved for aileron input. As the = stick is pulled for and aft, the aileron cable or push/pull rod set will = move for and aft. In both cases, the stick movement in one direction = does not affect the movement of the other control surface. I guess I = fail to see how the bias is induced. Help me out << You are correct that as you move the stick fore and aft, the ailerons = are not deflected. However, since the pivot point for the elevator = action is about 3" ABOVE the aileron cable axis, you have to deflect the = aileron cable itself to make the elevator work. The tighter the aileron = cable, the more the elevator wants to stay in one certain place, which = is wherever the stick ends up when the aileron cable is straight through = the cockpit. Now if your elevator doesn't happen to be at the optimal = position for cruise at this point, you're going to have to trim it out = to maintain altitude. That's where the drag comes from. The aileron = cable acts as a "centering spring" to keep the elevator in that certain = place. The elevator wants to be wherever the stick is "biased" to, = whether or not it's optimal for your cruise condition. If you were = careful enough and liked to experiment, you could find the sweet spot = where the elevator trim was neutral, and the aileron cable was = undeflected through the cockpit (at one speed and load condition, = anyway). =20 Picture this. You're 10 year-old kid is pushing on the stick and you = don't notice. You add trim to keep the plane flying level. Now you've = increased your trim drag. Same thing. That was my point. Probably not a big enough deal for most people to = worry about. Just us anal retentive types. But I'll bet it makes a = measurable difference. It just goes against my grain to stretch the = aileron cable every time I deflect the elevator. I'm just that way... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C326CC.FC7BEDF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Orma wrote:

>>Perhaps I'm missing the = point. If the=20 pivot for the elevator and the pivot for the aileron is attached at the = same=20 point, as mine are, the elevator cables will try to twist = forward of=20 the aft spar mounted pulley assembly, any time the stick is moved for = aileron=20 input. As the stick is pulled for and aft, the aileron cable or = push/pull=20 rod set will move for and aft. In both cases, the stick movement = in one=20 direction does not affect the movement of the other control = surface. I=20 guess I fail to see how the bias is induced. Help me out=20 <<

You are correct that as you move the = stick fore and=20 aft, the ailerons are not deflected. However, since the pivot = point for=20 the elevator action is about 3" ABOVE the aileron cable axis, you have = to=20 deflect the aileron cable itself to make the elevator work. The = tighter=20 the aileron cable, the more the elevator wants to stay in one certain = place,=20 which is wherever the stick ends up when the aileron cable is straight = through=20 the cockpit. Now if your elevator doesn't happen to be at the=20 optimal position for cruise at this point, you're going to have to = trim it=20 out to maintain altitude. That's where the drag comes from. = The=20 aileron cable acts as a "centering spring" to keep the elevator=20 in that certain place. The elevator wants to be wherever the stick = is=20 "biased" to, whether or not it's optimal for your cruise=20 condition. If you were careful enough and liked to = experiment,=20 you could find the sweet spot where the elevator trim was neutral, and = the=20 aileron cable was undeflected through the cockpit (at one speed and load = condition, anyway).

Picture this. You're 10 year-old = kid is=20 pushing on the stick and you don't notice. You add trim to keep = the plane=20 flying level. Now you've increased your trim drag. Same=20 thing.

That was my point. Probably not a = big enough=20 deal for most people to worry about. Just us anal retentive = types. =20 But I'll bet it makes a measurable difference. It just goes = against my=20 grain to stretch the aileron cable every time I deflect the = elevator. I'm=20 just that way...

Mark=20 Langford, Huntsville, AL
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
see KR2S = project at=20 http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C326CC.FC7BEDF0-- --===============66747138340263534== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:21:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>stick bias Message-ID: <3ED80388.000005.01512@dan> References: <010901c326f6$e5c30740$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_C39Q6RO0000000000000" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3 --------------Boundary-00=_C39Q6RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By converting to a dual stick with the aileron cable running through the center line and simply rotating on it's axis, you only move the aileron cable left and right, never fore and aft.=0D =0D Another of the many benefits of converting to dual stick, if you do it ri= ght =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_C39Q6RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

By converting to a dual stick with the aileron cable running through= the center line and simply rotating on it's axis, you only move the = ;aileron cable left and right, never fore and aft.

Another of the many benefits of converting to dual stick, if you do = it right.

N64KR

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, S= C

DanRH@KR-Builder.org

See you in Red Oak - 2003

See our KR at http://KR-Builder.o= rg - Click on the pic

See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA= 242.org

--------------Boundary-00=_C39Q6RO0000000000000-- From: "JIM VANCE" To: "krnet" Subject: KR>Vertical card compass Message-ID: <001301c3277d$bd2f6120$0500a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C32753.8EDFB420" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C32753.8EDFB420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I put a vertical card compass in my Renegade three years ago. It has = performed flawlessly: you would think it was a directional gyro. When I first installed it, it was deflected 10 degrees at all points of = the compass. I used a handheld compass and found that my Bowden cables = that I was using for the throttle, choke, and heat controls were all = highly magnetized. I degaussed them using a coil that we used to have = to use on the TV picture tubes before they installed permanent coils on = the newer sets. When I was through, my deviation was about 1 1/2 to 2 = degrees. =20 The compass doesn't necessarily have to be on the centerline of the = aircraft, but it must be mounted with the face perpendicular to the = centerline. Of course, any equipment that has transformers in it will = create a magnetic field, so it's best to keep it away from strobe power = supplies, etc. I have it mounted about six inches from my GPS and ten = inches from the VHF transceiver, and I could not discern any deviation = when they were in operation. Jim Vance = Vance@ClaflinWildcats.com ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C32753.8EDFB420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I put a vertical card compass in my = Renegade three=20 years ago. It has performed flawlessly: you would think it was a=20 directional gyro.

When I first installed it, it was = deflected 10=20 degrees at all points of the compass. I used a handheld compass = and found=20 that my Bowden cables that I was using for the throttle, choke, and heat = controls were all highly magnetized. I degaussed them using a coil = that we=20 used to have to use on the TV picture tubes before they installed = permanent=20 coils on the newer sets. When I was through, my deviation was = about 1 1/2=20 to 2 degrees.

The compass doesn't necessarily = have to be on=20 the centerline of the aircraft, but it must be mounted with the face=20 perpendicular to the centerline. Of course, any equipment that has = transformers in it will create a magnetic field, so it's best to = keep it=20 away from strobe power supplies, etc. I have it mounted about six = inches=20 from my GPS and ten inches from the VHF transceiver, and I could not = discern any=20 deviation when they were in operation.

=20 = =20 = =20 Jim = Vance

&nbs= p; = ; = &= nbsp; Vance@ClaflinWildcats.com

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C32753.8EDFB420-- --===============66747138340263534== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:29:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>Vertical card compass Message-ID: <3ED82FB2.000001.01504@dan> References: <001301c3277d$bd2f6120$0500a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_ETHQQL80000000000000" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5 --------------Boundary-00=_ETHQQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Vance,=0D =0D What is the brand, where do you get them, and do you know the price? =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_ETHQQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jim Vance,

What is the brand, where do you get them, and do you know the p= rice?

N64KR

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, S= C

DanRH@KR-Builder.org

See you in Red Oak - 2003

See our KR at http://KR-Builder.o= rg - Click on the pic

See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA= 242.org

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