From: To: Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 114, Issue 1 Date: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:04 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Registration (Robert Stone) 2. Re: Plan Deviation (larry severson) 3. Register and question (Colin) 4. Re: selling KR 2S Plans (Mark Langford) 5. RE: Oshkosh (Jim Faughn) 6. Plan Deviation (larry flesner) 7. Marvel Mystery oil (larry flesner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:50:40 -0500 From: "Robert Stone" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>Registration Message-ID: <000801c357a5$679bf400$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 1 Netters, I am not a lawyer so may not know what I am talking about so I wish = some of the members of the net who are lawyer's would respond to this = message with their expertise. It seems to me since every KR aircraft I have ever heard of, = including the two (KR-1 & KR-2) that I and a partner built back in the = 70's has been much modified from the original or the present day plans. = Like I think the plans call for the RAF 48 wing and several builders are = using a different wing. KR aircraft have been extended in length, made = wider, have different canopy configurations, landing gear and the list = goes on. If there is any change in the building process that does not = match the plans then it is not a KR Aircraft but your own design using = the KR plans as a building guide. Since it's not a KR aircraft, why = should Rand Robinson have anything to do or say about it?????? Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX rstone4@hot.rr.comFrom DanRH@alltel.net Thu Jul 31 14:25:24 2003 Received: from mta01.alltel.net ([166.102.165.143] helo=mta01-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19iKvM-0000GL-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:25:24 -0700 Received: from Computer ([151.213.94.185]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20030731212545.VFOR8242.mta01-srv.alltel.net@Computer> for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:25:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3F298960.000001.02816@Computer> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:25:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001155.2001155) From: "Dan Heath" References: X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: KR>selling KR 2S Plans Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Jim,=0D =0D I really don't see what RR's registration number has to do with your FAA registration. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KR builders and pilots=0D Date: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:59:11 PM=0D To: KR builders and pilots=0D Subject: Re: KR>selling KR 2S Plans=0D =0D The set of plans I bought from RR has a number that has been assigned to=0D someone else. I have contacted her by phone and have written to her two=0D times even sending her a copy of the plan book page showing the registrat= ion=0D number. I have asked if she would assign a new number. This has been=0D Months ago. Still no response. I would to like get this taken care of=0D before I try to register my project. Any suggestions?=0D =0D Jim Morehead=0D Cameron Park, CA=0D Wings ready to be primed=0D See you in Red Oak.=0D =0D =0D =0D on 7/31/03 6:33 AM, Jack Cooper at kr2cooper@earthlink.net wrote:=0D =0D > I bought a used set of plans for a KR-2S and registered them with Jeane= tte=0D > with no problem. I then bought a KR-2 boat and received the plans with = it.=0D > Since then I have sent the registration information to Jeanette two tim= es and=0D > havent heard from her. If she is refusing to register used plans I wish she=0D > would just say so rather than just ignore the request. I may have to register=0D > my KR-2 as a KR-2S=0D > Jack Cooper=0D > mailto:kr2cooper@earthlink.net=0D >=0D > -------Original Message-------=0D > From: virgnvs@juno.com=0D > Sent: 07/31/03 09:30 AM=0D > To: krnet@mylist.net=0D > Subject: Re: KR>selling KR 2S Plans=0D >=0D >>=0D >> You use the same # but you are the new owner, Virg=0D >=0D > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:28:37 -0600 cartera writes:= =0D >> Hi Guy,=0D >> I bought my plans second hand and no a/c was built off them, I=0D >> asked=0D >> Jeanette for a new number but she refused to I applied my own=0D >> without=0D >> any problems for the powers that be. But this was in Canada.=0D >> Happy Flying and a good time at Airventure=0D >>=0D >> larry flesner wrote:=0D >>=0D >>>> Larry; You can sell them but if you built an airplane from them=0D >> the new=0D >>>> owner isn't entitled to build a second airplane. If you haven't=0D >> built a KR=0D >>>=0D >>>> from them the new owner can register with RR as a new builder and=0D >> they will=0D >>>=0D >>>> give him/her a new registration no. and any outstanding updates.=0D >>>> W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND=0D >>>=0D >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=0D >>>=0D >>> I recall the seller in the original post indicated he had=0D >> purchased=0D >>> the plans several years ago and had never started constructon.=0D >>> That was the info on which I based my comments. You are=0D >>> right, the purchase of a set of plans allows for the constructon=0D >>> of one aircraft. I doubt if anyone would ever be challenged on=0D >>> building more but it wouldn't be legally "playing fair" with the=0D >>> designer.=0D >>>=0D >>> Larry Flesner=0D >>>=0D >>>=0D >>>=0D >>> _______________________________________________=0D >>> see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D >>>=0D >>=0D >> --=0D >> Adrian=0D >> cartera@cuug.ab.ca=0D >>=0D >>=0D >> _______________________________________________=0D >> see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D >>=0D >>=0D >=0D >=0D > Virgil N. Salisbury Amsoil=0D > www.lubedealer.com/salisbury=0D >=0D > _______________________________________________=0D > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D >>=0D >=0D > _______________________________________________=0D > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D =0D =0D _______________________________________________=0D see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D =2EFrom flyboy232@adelphia.net Thu Jul 31 14:41:30 2003 Received: from mta3.adelphia.net ([64.8.50.181]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19iLAv-0000Ls-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:41:30 -0700 Received: from WLEIGHPLYMALE ([67.20.37.129]) by mta3.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with SMTP id <20030731214151.LVSD272.mta3.adelphia.net@WLEIGHPLYMALE> for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:41:51 -0400 Message-ID: <015d01c357ac$1d1c6f20$81251443@chvlva.adelphia.net> From: "Leigh Plymale" To: "KR builders and pilots" References: <000801c357a5$679bf400$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:38:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: KR>Plan Deviation X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I am confused about what it takes to deviate from the plans. I think I know that registration is with the FAA for a tail number, but must you register the plans you use with them as well. If I modify the plane's construction such as widening and lengthening what must I do as far as the FAA is concerned? Also, When I create the POH how do I state the limits of the plane with respect to design stress loading and proper V speeds? I know one of you in KR land might have made some modifications and can help me out. ;-) Leigh Plymale flyboy232@adelphia.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:53:27 -0700 From: larry severson To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Plan Deviation Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030731154817.02e22898@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <015d01c357ac$1d1c6f20$81251443@chvlva.adelphia.net> References: <000801c357a5$679bf400$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 1. If you are planning to stretch/widen the KR2, get the KR2S supplement. The wing is longer, giving higher gross weight capability. 2. During the test phase, you have to establish stall and flight capability, even if you build to plan! 3. Changes that increase stress resistance increase weight. 4. Join an EAA chapter and get a Designee on board ASAP. At 05:38 PM 7/31/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I am confused about what it takes to deviate from the plans. I think I know >that registration is with the FAA for a tail number, but must you register >the plans you use with them as well. If I modify the plane's construction >such as widening and lengthening what must I do as far as the FAA is >concerned? Also, When I create the POH how do I state the limits of the >plane with respect to design stress loading and proper V speeds? I know one >of you in KR land might have made some modifications and can help me out. >;-) > >Leigh Plymale >flyboy232@adelphia.net > > >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:47:11 -0400 From: "Colin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>Register and question Message-ID: <003501c357c6$71da5120$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 Netters, I bought an aircraft that was 80% complete and I registered it under the = previous builder's number (his social) and transferred the N number to = me, no problem. If it is a first time register, any number can be = assigned so long as no one else has it. Second: Has anyone tried to fold the KR2 wings by just using the = upper bolts of the wing attach fittings and securing the wings = vertically? Other than the height, this seems the simplest. Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From aviator42@msn.com Thu Jul 31 18:48:54 2003 Received: from bay5-dav128.bay5.hotmail.com ([65.54.173.158] helo=hotmail.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19iP2M-0001Xv-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:48:54 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:49:16 -0700 Received: from 63.153.0.200 by bay5-dav128.bay5.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:49:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.153.0.200] X-Originating-Email: [aviator42@msn.com] From: "Mike Turner" To: "KR builders and pilots" References: <003501c357c6$71da5120$05462141@Beverly> Subject: Re: KR>Register and question--folding wings Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:49:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:49:20 -0500 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2003 01:49:16.0660 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DD12B40:01C357CF] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Colin: In order to fold the wings with the bolts of the wing attach = fittings, the bolts would all have to be in the same plane and all 4 = bolts in line with each other which they are not. The wing attach = fittings are in the vertical plane but at different elevations due to = the angle of incindence of the wing. When you try to lift the outer = portion of the wing you will put the hinge points in a bind right away. = Without a re-design of the wing attach fittings I would not try it. = Another method of folding wings was shown in the march edition of sport = Aviation on the Dyke Delta.=20 Mike Turner=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colin=20 To: KR builders and pilots=20 Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: KR>Register and question Netters, I bought an aircraft that was 80% complete and I registered it under = the previous builder's number (his social) and transferred the N number = to me, no problem. If it is a first time register, any number can be = assigned so long as no one else has it. Second: Has anyone tried to fold the KR2 wings by just using the = upper bolts of the wing attach fittings and securing the wings = vertically? Other than the height, this seems the simplest. Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!_______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:11:42 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>selling KR 2S Plans Message-ID: <008101c357d2$42021fd0$2402a8c0@800Athlon> References: <20030728022834.96664.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com><3.0.6.32.20030728071613.0088d100@pop.midwest.net> <002001c35605$c971a7c0$68c88b3f@lndn.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 Bill Kirkland wrote: > ... the new owner can register with RR as a new builder and they will > give him/her a new registration no. and any outstanding updates. Bill, I don't know of anybody who's purchased plans that ever received an update of any kind later on, unless he was lucky enough to be a KR Newsletter subscriber in the early days. I don't think RR sends out updates of any kind to anybody... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:14:34 -0500 From: "Jim Faughn" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: RE: KR>Oshkosh Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <69650E3784F08D459F4DBA9E9F7CD69C1E9B61@sfoexc.itconvergence.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 Sorry, I'm leaving as early on Saturday morning as I can. That looks like the weather window that will get me home. Perhaps you would like to go to Red Oak, Iowa. Jim Faughn N891JF at Oshkosh -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Patrick Krause Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:06 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Oshkosh I'm going to Oshkosh on Sunday. Will anyone with a KR still be there? Patrick Krause 415-505-6567 cell phone _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:38:26 -0500 From: larry flesner To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Plan Deviation Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030801083826.007aec10@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030731154817.02e22898@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <015d01c357ac$1d1c6f20$81251443@chvlva.adelphia.net> <000801c357a5$679bf400$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6 >1. If you are planning to stretch/widen the KR2, get the KR2S supplement. >The wing is longer, giving higher gross weight capability. >2. During the test phase, you have to establish stall and flight >capability, even if you build to plan! Larry Severson ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I will attempt to address several issues in this post and will try to hold down on my "rambling". First: The sale/resale of plans is not an issue with the FAA. They do not care what you call your airplane or what number you assign it other than the N number which you get from them. My registration is as follows; MANUFACTURER AND MANUFACTURER'S DESIGNATION OF AIRCRAFT Larry Flesner - KR 2 Modified SERIAL NUMBER 5850-57 (the number on my plans) Use any number you want for a serial number, the FAA doesn't care. The only real issue on the sale/resale of plans is trying to be "fair" with the designer and is strictly a personal issue other than the copyright considerations. What if you designed an aircraft, decide to sell plans, and the buyer of the first set builds a airplane and then passes the plans along to the next 499 builders and cuts you out 499 sales. This is a stretch I know but you get the point. Second: the statement "The wing is longer, giving higher gross weight capability" can be a bit misleading. The main purpose of the "longer" wing is to give better climb performance for the heavier KR's with a slight lowering of the landing and takeoff speed. I don't know if the longer wing and lighter wing loading actually hurts in cruise and/or gives a rougher ride in bumpy air. It DOES NOT give the "structure" a higher weight capability but actually cuts it down by 1/2 G. That statement came directly from Jeanette Rand and was credited to one of her engineer advisors. I'm basiclly speaking of the loads applied to the wing attach fittings. Third: As stated, you the builder will determine the various speeds and restrictons for your aircraft during the "test" phase. You probably have a good idea what these will be based on the performance of other KR's and information stated in the plans but you have the final responsibility to establish gross weight and aircraft performance numbers for YOUR version of the KR. Other than to establish aircraft and system reliability, that is the primary purpose of the "test" period. I can't claim to be an expert on any of this so anyone with a differing opinion feel free to fire back. Larry (put on you mask, the painting starts tonight!) Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:49:41 -0500 From: larry flesner To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Marvel Mystery oil Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030801084941.007ad320@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 Does anyone have any knowledge or opinion on the use of Marvel Mystery Oil in fiberglass tanks. I'm already convinced of it's benifits for the engine after 460 hours in the Tripacer but I'd like to know if it will be harmful in any way to my tanks in the KR. Thanks, Larry Flesner ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 114, Issue 1 *************************************