From: To: Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 120, Issue 1 Date: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:01 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Acrobatics (Colin) 2. RE: Sport Aviation Fly-in photos (Jim Faughn) 3. Re: Ailerons - I am a bit confused on the router bit to make asocket for the nut plates. (Timothy Bellville) 4. Re: Ailerons - I am a bit confused on the router bit to makeasocket for the nut plates. (Dan Heath) 5. spin? 6. Re: spin? (gleone) 7. KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:03:23 -0400 From: "Colin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>Acrobatics Message-ID: <002d01c35c4d$68faa600$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 1 Ron,=20 Not to sound argumentative, but most aircraft do not have removable = wings for the sake of transport and storage, like several experimental = designs. True all wings may be removed depending upon how much work you = are prepared to do to separate them. But most aircraft are certificated, = and they are not designed to have wings removed and reinstalled = repeatedly. This operation with the KR as stated by Mark Langford tends = to weaken the wings attach fittings, making it a less than desirable = candidate for acrobatic maneuvers. A KR built with a solid continuous = spar would be preferred. Also most of the powerplants used by KRs are = some form of gravity feed or, low pressure pump system, and regular = carb. Without a dry sump oil system, pressure carb, and reliable = pressure fuel delivery, extensive acrobatics would not be a good idea = unless you enjoy dead stick landings. There are alot better candidates = for these maneuvers, such as Dana's RV, then the KR. My opinion... Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From WA7YXF@aol.com Wed Aug 06 14:55:48 2003 Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.99]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19kWG4-000GyC-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:55:48 -0700 Received: from WA7YXF@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id g.e6.3c92412c (2519) for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:56:19 -0400 (EDT) From: WA7YXF@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:56:19 EDT To: krnet@mylist.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10637 Subject: KR>(no subject) X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: There are a lot better candidates for these maneuvers, such as Dana's RV, then the KR. My opinion... Colin Rainey KR2(td) The need of some to try and make the KR something different is really quite amazing with all the wonderful design's all ready flying and tested. There are not many design's where you can trade time watching TV or doing computer games into something that goes so fast for so little money. It will never be a Pitts or an ultralight But, it will be fun just the same. Lynn Hyder N37LH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:25:12 -0500 From: "Jim Faughn" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: RE: KR>Sport Aviation Fly-in photos Message-ID: <000001c35c7a$5ebb3b00$1a476ad8@jfaughn> In-Reply-To: <037a01c35c10$89c5ce60$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 You better fly!!!!!! Jim Jim Faughn 4323D Laclede Ave. St. Louis, MO 63108 (314)652-7659 Email - sub @ for "at" jfaughn "at" socket.net Web Site http://jfaughn.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Mark Langford Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:48 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Sport Aviation Fly-in photos I went to the Sport Aviation Fly-in last month, and took 250 photos of wierd little stuff that I was interested in. Oscar asked "where are the photos" so here they are. I'm just too lazy to sit down and sift through them and pull out the good ones, and write commentary and all that stuff, but with Photoshop it's pretty easy for me to create a "canned" web page with nothing but the photos. So I figure that's better than nothing, although it makes viewing them a real pain in the butt compared to the way I usually do it. They're at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/SAA2003/ . My apologies if I took 5 in a row of the same thing. Since digital "film" is free, I just keep snapping photos until I get it right. That's pretty easy when you can take 440 high res photos without downloading to the laptop (try that with a floppy). For that reason, if bandwidth is a problem you might just want to head straight to the last one of a series to save yourself some time. I must say that I don't plan to ever miss another SAA Fly-in. It's the who's who of experimental aviation pioneers, and some really nice airplanes showed up. And I don't remember seeing but two "nose draggers" on the field! I took a few at OSH too, and will try to do a proper web page for them eventually. The KR brats and beer thing was a great sucess. Thanks to Mark and Dana for the effort! The forum and the KR dinner were the main reason I went to Osh this year. Next year maybe I'll fly... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:37:34 -0400 From: "Timothy Bellville" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Ailerons - I am a bit confused on the router bit to make asocket for the nut plates. Message-ID: <002501c35c7c$18c85c70$a85f570c@donnas> References: <3F306E62.5010607@earthlink.net> <3F3070E5.000009.01608@Computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 Thanks for all the input Dan, I was reluctant to carve up those wing skins but it seems that it would be a good Idea. I only wish that the original builder would have done it right. Tim KR2 N7038V ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:48:37 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>Ailerons - I am a bit confused on the router bit to makeasocket for the nut plates. Message-ID: <3F322075.000001.02932@Computer> References: <002501c35c7c$18c85c70$a85f570c@donnas> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 4 RE: I was reluctant to carve up those wing skins =0D =0D Tim,=0D =0D With hinge in hand, ready to install, and the wing upside down, and the hinge attach screw holes prepared in the hinge, hot glue the hinge to the wing false aileron spar, exactly where you want it to end up. Test for movement of the hinge with no binding, to be sure it is straight.=0D =0D Now, drill holes the holes for the screws to go through the false spar, a= s exact to the size of the screw as possible. We used 8-32 recess stainles= s 100 degree screws. Now, all you have to do is cut a fairly large hole, b= ig enough for you to work through, on the bottom of the wing adjacent to eac= h screw hole. =0D =0D Now you can remove the hinge and clean off the hot glue. =0D =0D If you attach with rivets, I have a method for that, otherwise, proceed with the flox attachment process that you have been doing. For that proc= ess I would use a disposable pan head, 8-32, a little longer that the permanent screws, to hold it in place while it cures. Remember that you want to hold it in with something that you can get a good grip on, for ea= sy removal. I would stick with the flox method as it will be difficult to g= et down in there with your vice grips to squeeze rivets and you don't need t= o be neat, just get a little on the spar surface, screw it down, and glob o= n the flox. =0D =0D Do the same for the aileron. When done, you can use some of that nasty spray foam to fill the holes, let it cure out as much as possible, in as = hot a place as possible for as long as possible. Sand it all down and put a=20 nice neat layer, only 1 is necessary, of glass, over the whole length of = the wing/aileron for the width of the widest hole cut. Cut the cloth on the bias and wrap it over the false spar. If you put a layer of deck (finish= ) cloth and peel ply on that, you probably won't even be able to tell that = you ever opened it up. =0D =0D PS: What are you using for your blind nuts? (nut plates) =0D =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From christian.kogelmann@aua.com Thu Aug 07 04:18:11 2003 Received: from mailtemp.aua.com ([193.154.227.29] helo=s0037928.vie.aua.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19kimZ-000KkE-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:18:11 -0700 Received: by s0037928.vie.aua.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:18:44 +0200 Message-ID: <9D054CEF43F1C243A279E5435E9717461DBBC6@sviemxs02.gate01.skylines.global> From: Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA To: 'KR builders and pilots' Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:18:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: KR>Vx and Vy Speeds X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Netters, did anyone test the Vy and Vx speeds? I have plotted them on an Excel sheet from a test series done at a Press Alt of 3000/6000/9000ft. With a standard KR-2S(RAF48 wings & GPAS2180) at a take off weight of 1105lbs I got Vx=80kts (observed) Vx=76kts (CAS) and Vy=84kts (observed) Vy=80kts (CAS). Does anyone have similar values? If you want my test series in Excel format, please mail me off the list. Christian OE-VPD http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:01:47 -0400 From: To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>spin? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 5 Jim said vertical stab. might be too small to recover from a spin. What if you get into a spin? Are you going to accept you will become a smoking hole? What can builders do to correct the problem? i.e. larger feathers? I haven't started building Boat yet so I can make changes very easy. Still building hardware and putting up. Staying current in Auburn Al. Steven Phillabaum skphil@charter.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:37:34 -0600 (Mountain Standard Time) From: "gleone" To: Subject: Re: KR>spin? Message-ID: <3F32561E.000007.02856@DDMWDD11> References: Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 6 Spins are things you have to put yourself into unless you do something stupid like press on into IFR weather in your VFR plane. The Grumman Tr-= 2 has a warning about entering spins that says, basically, "DO NOT put into spins! If you do not recover within the first rotation, it is HIGHLY unlikely you will recover at all." Like the Grumman, the KR is a very sh= ort plane with little vert' stab'. The plane will most likely go into a flat spin (not good!). Grumman's solution was the "spin kit" which was a bell= y fin. In the 1980's, NASA used the lowly Tr-2 for flat spin tests. They = had a "spin chute" mounted on the tail of the bird and every time they deploy= ed the chute, they painted a little black, nose down, airplane on t he side = of the cockpit. The KR is designed to be light, cheap to build and fast.=20 There are a plethora of other designs out there designed with acro' in mi= nd. Hell, =0D if you want to build a plane capable of mild acrobatic, then build the VP= -1. The VP-1 is capable of acro' but the wings are braced and the empenage i= s huge. =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KR builders and pilots=0D Date: Thursday, August 07, 2003 07:02:39=0D To: krnet@mylist.net=0D Subject: KR>spin?=0D =0D Jim said vertical stab. might be too small to recover from=0D a spin.=0D What if you get into a spin? Are you going to accept you=0D will become a smoking hole?=0D What can builders do to correct the problem? i.e. larger=0D feathers?=0D I haven't started building Boat yet so I can make changes=0D very easy.=0D Still building hardware and putting up.=0D =0D Staying current in Auburn Al.=0D Steven Phillabaum=0D skphil@charter.net=0D =0D _______________________________________________=0D see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D =0D =2E ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:40:43 EDT From: JSMONDAY@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop Message-ID: <67.165ae6c8.2c63b0db@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Looks like it will be official.. I will be a KR Builder by the end of the weekend, I am purchasing a partially completed kit and will be hauling it home this weekend! A couple of quick questions from a beginning KR builder!- >From the article Mark Langford put up on his website (I think by Neal) - it appears that the stick control is over sensitive - 3/4" in either direction is all that is needed to fly the KR most of the time. It would seem that it would make sense to shorten the hinge length/bellcrank distance so it would not be so sensitive, or have a progressive linkage if you couldn't get full motion out of the ailerons in a reasonable motion length... Also on the corvair aircraft engine, it seems like the RPMs for aircraft are lower and a higher RPM could yield a lot more horsepower. I understand the prop tip speed limitation, but would it make sense to have a shorter diameter prop with more blades? would that allow higher rpm and still obtain the same bite, without exceeding the maximum efficient tip speed??? I see the composite propellers often could have up to six blades - was just thinking about four! John Monday Laguna Beach CA jsmonday@aol.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 120, Issue 1 *************************************