From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 336, Issue 1 Date: 3/10/2004 7:12:34 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Dana Overall) 2. RE: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Jim Faughn) 3. Re: Battery Size (Brian G. Douglas) 4. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Ron Eason) 5. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering 6. Re: Angle of Attack Indicator-Gauge Option (Peter Johnson) 7. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (joe) 8. RE: Carb heat (Serge F. Vidal) 9. RE: Carb heat (Dan Heath) 10. RE: Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth (Dan Heath) 11. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Peter Waijenberg) 12. RE: Carb heat 13. Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty (Mark Langford) 14. RE: Wicks Aircraft 15. Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty 16. wicks Aircraft 17. RE: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Ray Fuenzalida) 18. RE: Carb heat (Ron Freiberger) 19. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (=?iso-8859-1?q?Paolo=20Cavazzuti?=) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:40:26 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 >From: "Jim Faughn" lets agree on 25,000 per year. Next, given the best financial >advice I've read and heard, you would figure that you should only plan >on your investment's in the near future earning between 6 & 7%. So what >figure would it take to earn 25,000 per year? I come up with about >$420,000I wouldn't pay anywhere near that much money for the business. >I don't have the numbers that were offered but I hope this puts what I >would think would be her point out for others to consider. Without getting into a complicated business valuation analysis, here is the take. For business valuation, where inventory is not a factor, a pretty standard ballpark figure is 2.5 x previous 5 year average net income with any deviation percentage as a factor. $25K x 2.5 plus inventory and negotiable goodwill. If you can't amortize the purchase price over 10 years, forget it. Nice thought, but she has been approached previously. If she doesn't watch it, she will end up with nothing. What a shame. As Jim said, I value some of my KR friends as true friends!! I would like to see this airplane prosper. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg do not archive _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:56:50 -0600 From: "Jim Faughn" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <000001c40653$b82e22a0$6dd85540@jfaughn> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 Dana, Excellent point on what it should be worth vs. what she probably thinks it is worth. Jim >From: "Jim Faughn" lets agree on 25,000 per year. Next, given the best financial >advice I've read and heard, you would figure that you should only plan >on your investment's in the near future earning between 6 & 7%. So what >figure would it take to earn 25,000 per year? I come up with about >$420,000I wouldn't pay anywhere near that much money for the business. >I don't have the numbers that were offered but I hope this puts what I >would think would be her point out for others to consider. Without getting into a complicated business valuation analysis, here is the take. For business valuation, where inventory is not a factor, a pretty standard ballpark figure is 2.5 x previous 5 year average net income with any deviation percentage as a factor. $25K x 2.5 plus inventory and negotiable goodwill. If you can't amortize the purchase price over 10 years, forget it. Nice thought, but she has been approached previously. If she doesn't watch it, she will end up with nothing. What a shame. As Jim said, I value some of my KR friends as true friends!! I would like to see this airplane prosper. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:00:40 -0600 From: "Brian G. Douglas" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Battery Size Message-ID: <008101c40654$51b4f610$bfd01840@youryk5cbmeeo8> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: first-class Message: 3 The biggest one that you can fit in the battery box that you have made! Brian g. Douglas N8575C was a TD now has training wheels. Well all most= , as soon as the replacement part arrive! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jim Morehead" To: "KR- Net" Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: KR>Battery Size > Netters, > What battery is recommended for a Revmaster 2100 D engine? What > =B3= cold > Cranking Amperage=B2 is recommended? > Thanks, > Jim Morehead > Cameron Park, CA > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:05:46 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <001f01c40654$f74b8e40$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <000001c4064a$522f61c0$13d75540@jfaughn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 This what I was thinking also. Numbers from her perspective looks different, don't they. I could only hope that the KR series will continue to sell at a volume to provide her a retirement I am sure she needs. I think her daughter is a practicing lawyer and she gets good advice from her. The more we, as a group fly our planes to gatherings and public places the better we sustain the KR enterprise for her, which is good for her and the people fabricating KR parts. Just don't loose the faith, the KR will survive. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Faughn" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:49 PM Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering > I've wondered why Jeanette wasn't interested in the possible > sale/transfer or whatever you would want to call it, of the business. > After all the plane is a good design, there are people that would like > to help and many other reasons that I could see. In addition to the > mention of an offer presented on this list, I am also aware of other > offers that have been made over the years. At first I couldn't figure > out why she wouldn't want to accept. Then I tried to think about it > from her perspective. If you make the assumption that she sells 40 or > 50 sets of plans a year, a number of parts and other portions of kits > regardless of how small you can make the assumption that the profit in > the worst case is in the range of $20-30,000. Next figure this is her > retirement income and determine what investment it would take to > replace this. Just for fun, lets agree on 25,000 per year. Next, given > the best financial advice I've read and heard, you would figure that > you should only plan on your investment's in the near future earning > between 6 & 7%. So what figure would it take to earn 25,000 per year? > I come up with about $420,000. Of course you would end up with the > purchase price still in tact at the end but the point is very simple. > I wouldn't pay anywhere near that much money for the business. I don't > have the numbers that were offered but I hope this puts what I would > think would be her point out for others to consider. > > I have never discussed this with Jeanette nor do I consider myself a > person to price a business. I have just been thinking about her > perspective and watching a pretty neat airplane decrease in > popularity. Just my 1/2 cents worth. I've enjoyed my plane and all the > people that go with it. Without Ken and Rand Robinson my life would > have never been so rich but like many, I too wish it would continue to > be promoted and updated. > > Jim > > Jim Faughn > 4323D Laclede Ave. > St. Louis, MO 63108 > (314)652-7659 > Email - sub @ for "at" jfaughn "at" socket.net > Web Site http://jfaughn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:59:07 -0500 From: intrepid1ac@juno.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <20040309.225916.-188657.0.intrepid1ac@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 > "Jim Faughn" writes: > I've wondered why Jeanette wasn't interested in the possible > sale/transfer or whatever you would want to call it, of the business. > --(snip)-- can make the assumption that the profit in the worst case > is in the range of $20-30,000. Next figure this is her retirement > income and determine what investment it would take to > replace this. Just for fun, lets agree on 25,000 per year. Mr. Faughn has presented the best overview of the situation, IMHO. So for the frustrated would-be-Buyers of RR Engineering, perhaps a compromise position would work ? Think of =Distributor=. To keep this simple ( absent the ergos, to whits, et al) let's call the Distributership "Acme Airplanes" ( or AA ). AA sets itself up as =a= Single Point for the KR- airplane. ( Not "the only", just "a" source... ) AA re-sells KR- plans that it buys from RR. AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from RR. AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from Diehl. AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from whomever. AA re-sells wood kits that it packages from wood bought from Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, Hermans Logging, et al. AA may even make a few parts ( metal parts kits ?) itself, and sells them. AA might make and sell pre-assembled wood spar kits, and fuselage boats pre-assembled in AA's climate controlled and clean-room assembly facility. AA could put together all the components of the airplane and sell them in Groups --- ie, Tail Group, Fuselage, Wing Kit, Engine and FWF Kit, Finishing Kit. ( a la RV ). AA does all the whiz-bang advertising and promoting that RR does not now do. etc. Simple, limited liability, good prospect to promote the airplane, and probably a lot of fun for the AA personnel. High-profit for AA ? Whooops, maybe not... but "making a killing" and "promoting the airplane" are not the same. As far as the Intellectual Property angle and "Rights", promise ( and keep that promise !) to buy enough from RR so as to not compromise her present position. AA is a loose Partner, not a competitior. Offering Mrs. Ken such a broader-based stability that the Open Market does not may influence her to (gladly ? ) participate. This IMHO, and YMMV. Another $0.02 food-for-thought. Art Cacella 1970 American AA-1 N6155L "Dinkie" 1972 KR-1 Plans, still not started ( but four metal homebuilts underway ) Winston-Salem, NC ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:58:29 -0800 From: "Peter Johnson" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Angle of Attack Indicator-Gauge Option Message-ID: <000201c40669$12070840$bf421a45@peter> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040309081041.027e4740@pop-server.socal.rr.com> <001d01c40623$39088c20$75a0fea9@athlon2400> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 Just because this is something I'm familiar with I thought I'd add some input to John's description of his friends homemade AoA's. The use of a low speed ASI in the cockpit as a gauge is a good one. Another option that could be used is a mini magnahelic gauge. These gauges are very common in industry and are used for heating and ventilating pressure readouts, induced air pressure measurement, etc. The gauges come in a variety of 'high-low' capacitys and ranges. Go to your yellow pages and look under 'Industrial Supply' or 'Heating and Ventilating Design'. If the firms you call don't sell them directly, they can tell you who does. I would also like to say that of all the different homemade AoA's that I've looked at and designed myself, I like this one the best, especially for it's 'tuning' capability. Thanks for posting John. Hope this is of help to someone. Peter Johnson KR-2Sexy with a Corvair Kenora, Ontario Canada mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martindale Family" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:09 PM Subject: Re: KR>Angle of attack indicator > Folks > > A friend of mine designed his own AoA indicator. Simply a 1/2" tube, sealed > at the end with row of small holes drilled into it. The tube is > mounted out > of the fuselage wall on the extended chord line 8"or so ahead of the leading > edge root and is parallel to it. He has the holes pointed down at > right angles to the chord so that at zero AoA there is minimal > pressure in the tube. As the wing/fuselage is rotated to provide an > AoA so too does the tube, the holes present to the air flow and the > pressure increases. A reading is obtained on some sort of sensitive > pressure gauge (maybe just a low speed ASI) that has it's face > recalibrated in arbitary units (he just uses numbers 1 to 5 and has > the dial named " partner's pressure level"). The tube can be rotated > to provide calibration (or desired absolute needle > movement) and the readings noted as he approaches the stall. He flies this > gauge on approach, more so than the ASI. > > John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:56:46 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <00bd01c4066c$dae21220$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: <20040309.225916.-188657.0.intrepid1ac@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 I may be mistaken ,but my remarks were in reference to the original ideas of offering more models ie. sea plane etc. I only meant to say that a quick check on liability insurance is prudent. However I was speared by some obvious beginner legal mind who called my terms of all things "gibberish". I have recently sold my aviation corp. which was a consolidation of several others and subsequent liability was the major factor in getting a buyer. I can tell you where"SF Bay Area" but not who. Thank you for your patience. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering > > "Jim Faughn" writes: > > I've wondered why Jeanette wasn't interested in the possible > > sale/transfer or whatever you would want to call it, of the > > business. --(snip)-- can make the assumption that the profit in the > > worst case is in the range of $20-30,000. Next figure this is her > > retirement income and determine what investment it would take to > > replace this. Just for fun, lets agree on 25,000 per year. > > Mr. Faughn has presented the best overview of the situation, > IMHO. > > So for the frustrated would-be-Buyers of RR Engineering, > perhaps a compromise position would work ? Think of > =Distributor=. > > To keep this simple ( absent the ergos, to whits, et al) let's > call the Distributership "Acme Airplanes" ( or AA ). > > AA sets itself up as =a= Single Point for the KR- airplane. > ( Not "the only", just "a" source... ) > AA re-sells KR- plans that it buys from RR. > AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from RR. > AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from Diehl. > AA re-sells KR- parts that it buys from whomever. > AA re-sells wood kits that it packages from wood bought > from Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, Hermans Logging, et al. > AA may even make a few parts ( metal parts kits ?) itself, > and sells them. > AA might make and sell pre-assembled wood spar kits, > and fuselage boats pre-assembled in AA's climate > controlled and clean-room assembly facility. > AA could put together all the components of the airplane > and sell them in Groups --- ie, Tail Group, Fuselage, > Wing Kit, Engine and FWF Kit, Finishing Kit. ( a la RV ). > AA does all the whiz-bang advertising and promoting that > RR does not now do. > etc. > > Simple, limited liability, good prospect to promote the > airplane, and probably a lot of fun for the AA personnel. > High-profit for AA ? Whooops, maybe not... but "making > a killing" and "promoting the airplane" are not the same. > > As far as the Intellectual Property angle and "Rights", promise > ( and keep that promise !) to buy enough from RR so as to > not compromise her present position. AA is a loose Partner, > not a competitior. Offering Mrs. Ken such a broader-based > stability that the Open Market does not may influence her to > (gladly ? ) participate. > > This IMHO, and YMMV. Another $0.02 food-for-thought. > > Art Cacella 1970 American AA-1 N6155L "Dinkie" > 1972 KR-1 Plans, still not started > ( but four metal homebuilts underway ) > Winston-Salem, NC > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the > Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com > to sign up today! > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:45:10 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat Message-ID: <000501c40684$61db2ca0$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: <404E59E0.000006.03748@Computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 Really? How hot exactly do you think the intake air has to be to prevent carb icing? I thought as long as it was above icing temp, it would be fine? I guess I should rather weld a pipe along a portion of the exhaust as an air source? In that case, my only problem would be to find some ducting material with a small diameter that resists the heat! -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Dan Heath Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 00:57 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Carb heat RE: Opinions? Serge, That I have plenty of.... I am concerned about not getting enough heat unless you come directly off an exhaust pipe. Another concern that I have is with the sliding door, in that it may be prone to bind up, where a door pivoting on a post or hinge, most likely will not. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at tp://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- What I plan to do is: - Make the pick-up point at the rear of the bottom baffling plate (this is a VW engine, so there is a baffling plate running under the engine), on the side, opening 90 degrees from the airflow. The 90 degrees is because I want to avoid building high pressure in the carb. - Close the pick-up point with a small sliding plate, that would be spring loaded. The control will be a push-pull cable, same as for a choke. Serge Vidal _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:04:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat Message-ID: <404EF641.000001.01480@Computer> References: <000501c40684$61db2ca0$2c0101c0@ate.com> Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 9 RE: How hot exactly do you think the intake air has to be to prevent carb icing? =0D =0D Serge,=0D =0D I don't know exactly HOW hot the air has to be. I can only tell you this.= I purchased one of those "Cessna" type heat muffs, CESS-2 in the Wicks cata= log I put it around my exhaust pipe and ducted it into the heat box. When I = had the engine running and opened the gate, no RPM drop.=0D =0D So I wrapped a large spring, like those you use on your screen door, only maybe a little larger, around the pipe under the muff. Now when I opened = the gate, RPM drop as you would expect. =0D =0D EGT runs at 1350 degrees and CHT runs at 350 or so.....=0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: serge.vidal@ate-international.com; KRnet=0D Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:46:55 AM=0D To: 'KRnet'=0D Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat=0D =0D Really? How hot exactly do you think the intake air has to be to prevent=0D carb icing? I thought as long as it was above icing temp, it would be fin= e?=0D =0D I guess I should rather weld a pipe along a portion of the exhaust as an = air=0D source? In that case, my only problem would be to find some ducting mater= ial=0D with a small diameter that resists the heat!=0D =0D -----Original Message-----=0D From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On=0D Behalf Of Dan Heath=0D Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 00:57=0D To: krnet@mylist.net=0D Subject: Re: KR>Carb heat=0D =0D =0D RE: Opinions? Serge, That I have plenty of.... I am concerned about=0D not getting enough heat unless you come directly off an=0D exhaust pipe. Another concern that I have is with the sliding door, in=0D that it may be=0D prone to bind up, where a door pivoting on a post or hinge, most likely w= ill=0D not. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel=0D R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon -=0D 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at=0D tp://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- What I plan to do is: -=0D Make the pick-up point at the rear of the bottom baffling plate (this is = a=0D VW engine, so there is a baffling plate running under the engine), on the= =0D side, opening 90 degrees from the airflow. The 90 degrees is because I wa= nt=0D to avoid building high pressure in the carb. - Close the pick-up point wi= th=0D a small sliding plate, that would be spring loaded. The control will be a= =0D push-pull cable, same as for a choke. Serge Vidal=0D =0D =0D _______________________________________=0D to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net=0D please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html=0D =0D =0D _______________________________________=0D to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net=0D please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html=0D =2E ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:15:08 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth Message-ID: <404EF8BC.000003.01480@Computer> References: <000001c40653$b82e22a0$6dd85540@jfaughn> Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 10 Many of us have offered to assist Jeanette, free of charge. I think that = we already do all that she wants anyone to do.=0D =0D Maybe all of this has everything to do with what the KR means to her. It = is hard for us to walk in her shoes. It may very well be, that it has very little to do with material wealth.=0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:23:53 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Waijenberg To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <20040310112353.13188.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 Ron wrote: >The more we, as a group fly our planes to gatherings and public places >the better we sustain the KR enterprise for her, which is good for her >and the people fabricating KR parts. Just don't loose the faith, the >KR will survive. In the one hand I agree with you but in the other I say the best is to let the company go bankrupt. With all respect, this is a lady who is really not interested in her business. How I come to the conclusion is simply look how many people complain and then my own experience. I have asked her for the total price with postage for the KR2S plans. I need to know it to be able to send her the correct amount because I live in Europe. It is anyhow a puzzle to me that if you have international clients, that you don’t change your system to accommodate these people as well. I think it was between 8 to 10 weeks I got an offer from her for the landing gear. Of course everybody make mistakes but you can understand that I am not going to wait another 10 weeks and I don’t know how many phone calls for her reply. If this is the way you want to do business you deserve to go bankrupt. Anyhow with the help of the people here on the Krnet I got the plans from somebody else. Less than one week I had them in the post. And that is the way she should do business. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:34:50 -0600 From: To: , "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat Message-ID: <001501c4069c$155d5700$9c03fea9@greenhome2a1> In-Reply-To: <000501c40684$61db2ca0$2c0101c0@ate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Serge F. Vidal Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:45 AM To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat Really? How hot exactly do you think the intake air has to be to prevent carb icing? I thought as long as it was above icing temp, it would be fine? I guess I should rather weld a pipe along a portion of the exhaust as an air source? In that case, my only problem would be to find some ducting material with a small diameter that resists the heat! -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Dan Heath Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 00:57 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Carb heat RE: Opinions? Serge, That I have plenty of.... I am concerned about not getting enough heat unless you come directly off an exhaust pipe. Another concern that I have is with the sliding door, in that it may be prone to bind up, where a door pivoting on a post or hinge, most likely will not. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at tp://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- What I plan to do is: - Make the pick-up point at the rear of the bottom baffling plate (this is a VW engine, so there is a baffling plate running under the engine), on the side, opening 90 degrees from the airflow. The 90 degrees is because I want to avoid building high pressure in the carb. - Close the pick-up point with a small sliding plate, that would be spring loaded. The control will be a push-pull cable, same as for a choke. Serge Vidal _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:55:01 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Message-ID: <016901c4069e$e7250920$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: <575C9CDF.54BA8EDD.83FC6405@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 I've ordered stuff from Wicks well over a hundred times, probably two hundred. Only once did I get something that I didn't order, and it's entirely possible that it was my screwup. I called and they immediately mailed me the correct washers, and didn't even ask for the wrong washers back. I've never had to talk to the president of Wicks Aircraft, and you shouldn't have to place all your orders through AS&S's president either... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:59:09 -0600 From: To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Wicks Aircraft Message-ID: <001a01c4069f$7aa49670$9c03fea9@greenhome2a1> In-Reply-To: <016901c4069e$e7250920$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14 I agree with Mark, we have never had a problem dealing with Wicks, they are always very good (and quick too). I would not hesitate to recommend Wicks. -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Mark Langford Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:55 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Aircraft Spruce & Specialty I've ordered stuff from Wicks well over a hundred times, probably two hundred. Only once did I get something that I didn't order, and it's entirely possible that it was my screwup. I called and they immediately mailed me the correct washers, and didn't even ask for the wrong washers back. I've never had to talk to the president of Wicks Aircraft, and you shouldn't have to place all your orders through AS&S's president either... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:27:43 EST From: JEHayward@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Message-ID: <88.565acb8.2d807fdf@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 15 In a message dated 3/10/04 5:52:37 AM Mountain Standard Time, n56ml@hiwaay.net writes: << I called and they immediately mailed me the correct washers, and didn't even ask for the wrong washers back. I've never had to talk to the president of Wicks Aircraft, and you shouldn't have to place all your orders through AS&S's president either... >> I had a similar problem with AS&S a couple of years ago in waiting for some landing gear cable that they "had". It was ordered about 10 days before I needed it to make a fly-in. The order didn't come because of a quantity problem the computer showed. Mr. Irwin took care of the problem but I missed my fly-in. He didn't charge me for the cable but I missed the fly-in. Had I ordered from Wicks, I would have made the fly-in. I ordered some spruce from AS&S for my -2S firewall and was told it would be 6 or 7 weeks to get it. I called Wicks and had it 5 days later. I've never had any problems with Wicks and use them almost exclusively. Jim Hayward Rapid City, SD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:36:39 EST From: Raybeth321@wmconnect.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>wicks Aircraft Message-ID: <17.438f92da.2d8081f7@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 I agree. I have been ordering parts from Wicks since 1994. I have had very good service.. Ray goree ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:38:18 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Fuenzalida To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <20040310143818.52507.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c40653$b82e22a0$6dd85540@jfaughn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 17 Agree with this analysis. The value of a business is a factor of its net cash income. Maybe she is just afraid someone will not manage it properly and thus degrade the memory of Ken. You never know. Jim Faughn wrote: Dana, Excellent point on what it should be worth vs. what she probably thinks it is worth. Jim >From: "Jim Faughn" lets agree on 25,000 per year. Next, given the best financial >advice I've read and heard, you would figure that you should only plan >on your investment's in the near future earning between 6 & 7%. So what >figure would it take to earn 25,000 per year? I come up with about >$420,000I wouldn't pay anywhere near that much money for the business. >I don't have the numbers that were offered but I hope this puts what I >would think would be her point out for others to consider. Without getting into a complicated business valuation analysis, here is the take. For business valuation, where inventory is not a factor, a pretty standard ballpark figure is 2.5 x previous 5 year average net income with any deviation percentage as a factor. $25K x 2.5 plus inventory and negotiable goodwill. If you can't amortize the purchase price over 10 years, forget it. Nice thought, but she has been approached previously. If she doesn't watch it, she will end up with nothing. What a shame. As Jim said, I value some of my KR friends as true friends!! I would like to see this airplane prosper. _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.From n56ml@hiwaay.net Wed Mar 10 06:49:07 2004 Received: from bee.hiwaay.net ([216.180.54.11] helo=mail.hiwaay.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1B1519-0001Zd-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:49:07 -0800 Received: from mlangford2 (nokia-1.tbe.com [192.88.94.254]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i2AEfRH61248095 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:41:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <01b401c406ae$2cab3370$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" References: <20040310112353.13188.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:44:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: The deal that we offered her was that we would take over the business and proceed to improve the plans and grow it as we saw fit, while still paying her what she had averaged for the previous five years, and she was no longer required to work. We offered her five years of that (and were prepared to go as high as ten, as I recall), but she would accept nothing less than a lump sum, period. As has been pointed out, RR has no incentive to sell the business for anything less than a small fortune, since selling plans is making a her a sufficient living, with minimal effort. My guess is that this golden goose will be passed on to the next generation, so the KR will continue to plod along in its current state of affairs. If you check the archives you'll see where I volunteered to completely redraw the plans for her several years ago, correcting mistakes and making them easier to read. Kevin Kelly had done a set on CAD already, but there were some things that were inaccurate or even backwards. And they were still dimensioned in a bizarre manner in which the spaces between verticals were defined individually, but not cumulatively. There's no telling how many boat construction mistakes those dimensions have led to! [Most people like to pull a tape measure and mark off the numbers all at one time, rather than measuring 14", move the tape, measure 14.5", move the tape...you get the idea.] I offered to tweak the drawings for her, and immediately update them whenever an error was discovered, for absolutely free. I never could talk her into letting me do that, and I can only assume that she didn't trust me for some reason. I DID correct the bluelines and send them back to her, but those plans haven't seen the light of day, as far as I know. It's been said that RR just isn't business oriented. There are lots of complaints about the lack of response from phone calls and faxes. I asked her about this when I ordered my KR1B plans, and she offered that she answers all calls, except the ones where there is no return phone number left. Dr. Dean and I tried to sell her TET wing attach fittings for the same price we were selling them on KRnet. She said that was actually less than she was paying for them (from Ken Brock, I believe), and she expressed some interest in them, but we never heard anything else about them. In my opinion, it's just not good business practice to buy something from one supplier for years without ever checking to see if someone else could supply the same thing for a lower price. And this was right after her current supplier shipped several sets of WAFs that apparently hadn't been properly heat treated (Mike Mims bent them with his bare hands). We were convinced that we could do so much more for the company and the KR by actually caring, working hard, and improving the plans and products, that we would be turning a profit immediately, and still keeping her salary coming as if nothing had ever happened. We thought she might find that offer attractive, as she would have a steady income for years, and not have to be around to work the phone. The liability thing is a definite concern. You can say that we wouldn't be liable all you want, but that doesn't keep some idiot from hauling you into court and costing you a fortune in legal fees before it finally gets thrown out in court. I've seen it happen too many times, with ludicrous charges, and costly results. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:58 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: , "KRnet" Subject: RE: KR>Carb heat Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000501c40684$61db2ca0$2c0101c0@ate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 18 Serge, Carb icing normally occurs above freezing, and becomes impact ice due to the expansion. Carb icing does not occur when the OAT is near freezing. You will almost never need carb heat, but then...... it can become very important. My worst case occurred on the way to Funday Sunday, which is always the first SUNDY in may, and it was a very "pretty" day. I had noticed the RPMs decreasing, and when I pulled on the heat, all kinds of noise occurred. My little girl put fingdernail marks in the IP. It's important when you need it. Read the comments and info on the Ellison web site about the need for carb heat on slide valve carbs, like the POSA, etcetera Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com Really? How hot exactly do you think the intake air has to be to prevent carb icing? I thought as long as it was above icing temp, it would be fine? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:11:43 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Paolo=20Cavazzuti?= To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <20040310151143.83838.qmail@web40601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 19 Hi everybody, just my thought about this: Dan Heath wrote "It may very well be, that it has very little to do with material wealth..." And Peter Waijenberg wrote "In the one hand I agree with you but in the other I say the best is to let the company go bankrupt..." First of all a word of respect for a woman who continued KR business after the tragic death of her husband: it's so far in time for many of us, but it's surely yesterday in her heart. In this situation I think the best way to go could be that IF there's someone who can have a true, sincere and friendly contact with Rand family (i.e. Janette and Susan), he should talk with them and make them understand the importance to put just a little more care when they have to do with their customers: many KR builders feel the need of this, and many more will make orders to RR without the doubt RR won't answer. I know, it's an "IF" hypothesis, but it could be the best in this situation. Or, alternatively, to make them feel the vitality of our community... I don't know their character, but why not a massive "ordinary mail" from us all to let them know that we care about the continuity of their business and the need for more? If there's no perspective to have a total different administration from another customer, why surrender to the actual situation? All this said, I should say that I had no problems with RR till now. Simply I learned that: - Do not ansk RR more than what is still indicated on brochures and internet site - Do not telephone call to RR - It' strongly suggested to write a letter, in second chance write a FAX... better to send a letter AND send a FAX - PAY and you'll have what you've ordered (and this, said the above, is just paying to have the thriller to wait with no answers, no contact, no confirmations... and to discover what you've bought only when you've pieces in your hands )... I made a 2.617 US$ order at the end of february, it's not a little money; I can perfectly understand people who won't place an order like mine to a company that is not able to give you an idea not only of an average shipping price (to Italy, in my situation), but also to give you an idea of weight and size of packages to make you do your own research (note that, for far and "under developed" that my country could seem, there are more than 10 KR flying and others under construction... surely RR has a previous history about volumes, weights and shipping to Italy...). This is why I hope to receive all the stuff I’ve ordered and to have the time and ability to make a complete list of the stuff, so that at least it will remain as future memory for those looking for info on Krnet! Hope this mail has not bored you and look for your answers. Regards, Paolo Cavazzuti Modena, Italy e-mail: sapiddomannaro@yahoo.it ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! 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