From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 Date: 3/18/2004 11:51:10 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: trailers (Barry Kruyssen) 2. how is your kr going barry? (Ross Evans) 3. elevator balancing marty roberts set up? (Ross Evans) 4. Re: Octanes /fuel cost (Phillip Matheson) 5. Re: elevator balancing marty roberts set up? (Dan Heath) 6. elevator balancing/ crosswind testing (larry flesner) 7. /fuel cost (larry flesner) 8. elevator balancing!! (Ross Evans) 9. Re: If you want to fly soon (Barry Kruyssen) 10. Aileron deflection/pitch trim (larry flesner) 11. aircraft performance how fast! (Ross Evans) 12. Re: /fuel cost (Brant Hollensbe) 13. Re: aircraft performance how fast! (joe) 14. Re: trailers (Ray Fuenzalida) 15. Re: aircraft performance how fast! (Ross Evans) 16. Re: aircraft performance how fast! (joe) 17. Re: Octanes /fuel cost (Mac McConnell-Wood) 18. aircraft performance / balanced elevator (larry flesner) 19. RE: Aileron deflection/pitch trim (Brian Kraut) 20. Re: aircraft performance / balanced elevator (joe) 21. learning the hard way about fuel $$$$$$$$$ 22. Flutter (Stephen Jacobs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:35:57 +1000 From: "Barry Kruyssen" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>trailers Message-ID: <003b01c40c67$d9965790$8c00a8c0@T1W419b> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040317092905.027fec08@pop-server.socal.rr.com> <000601c40c4b$dae2e580$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 1 Hi Larry, If you scan the articale in for Bob can you also send me a copy. Thanks Barry Kruyssen Cairns, Australia AUF 19-3873 kr2@BigPond.com http://users.tpg.com.au/barryk/KR2.htm Larry. If you have a scanner, will you scan the entire article and send = it to me. I am in need of a good trailer for a KR-2S. Since you are so = close to where Ken Rand lived, did you know him? I used to live on Lasalle = Lane in Huntington,Beach and knew him very well from 1970 up to the time of = his death. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx > For those who want to use a trailer, instead of a hangar, look at = the Sept. > 1991 issue of Kitplane. It contains building suggestions for the = perfect > (?) trailer. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:31:21 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" To: barryk@tpg.com.au Cc: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>how is your kr going barry? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 HI Barry how are u how is your kr coming along? I have been real busy on mine I expect the engine in about 2 weeks time it is currently getting put into a car to have the fuel injection mapped and then all the reduction drive and aero gear will be put on it! I am going real well on the building and am expecting the plane to fly around mid year. The canopy took about 250 hours to build and I have spent probably 400 since u last saw me!! cheers _________________________________________________________________ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:41:08 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>elevator balancing marty roberts set up? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3 HI netters I am currently building a kr2S I am looking to balance the elevator I have filled 2 10mm diameter lengths of chromolly tube with lead to the hinge point I am looking to attach it and have it looking like marty Roberts set up. The pictures of his are on last years gathering photo's I was looking to drill holes throught the timber of the elevator and put 2 bolts with nylex nuts to attach it and then fill the tube with epoxy and mill fibre to give compressive strength and glass over the tube and onto the exsisting elevator is this what marty did! Most importantly is this the right way to do it! Any ideas would be great! on how to do it as I bought the project and other options of doing it would not be so fun and I want to fly soon!! cheers Ross evans brisbane Australia _________________________________________________________________ What's your house worth? Click here to find out: http://www.ninemsn.realestate.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:56:30 +1100 From: "Phillip Matheson" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Octanes /fuel cost Message-ID: <002101c40c73$16f87310$6197dccb@StationW2k04> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> <3.0.6.32.20040317081819.00878a30@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 14 gal of 100LL I recently purchased at the airport for $38 would have cost me maybe $25 at the local service station. ------------ In Australia, 14 US gal = 52.9942 Litres at around $1.10 / lit = $58.29 Aust. = around $4.16 Aust / US Gal. Would that be correct You Blocks have it good for fuel price in the States. Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR at Mark Jones web http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:25:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>elevator balancing marty roberts set up? Message-ID: <4058EC75.000001.00952@Computer> References: Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 re: I want to fly soon!!=0D =0D Ross,=0D =0D If you want to fly soon, don't balance it. If you want to balance it, don= 't fly soon.=0D =0D I would glass it on as I don't think the timber could stand the strain as= it is not very wide or thick.=0D =0D After you do that, you will have to consider weight and balance. Now you = may have to move the engine forward. If you do that, you will probably have t= o re-build your cowling. If you re-build your cowling, you may have to re-build your baffling.=0D =0D Get the picture.=0D =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:28:02 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>elevator balancing/ crosswind testing Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040317202802.00875470@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <4058EC75.000001.00952@Computer> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6 >re: I want to fly soon!! >Ross, > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >If you want to fly soon, don't balance it. If you want to balance it, >don't fly soon. After you do that, you will have to consider weight and >balance. Now you may have to move the engine forward. If you do that, >you will probably have to re-build your cowling. If you re-build your >cowling, you may have to re-build your baffling. >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I doubt if balancing you elevator is going to cause you to have to rebuild anything else if the W&B was in the ballpark to start with. I installed a lighter weight tailwheel (by 2 pounds) and it moved my CG forward 1/2" and that's on a fuselage that is 24" longer than standard. Tie the weight with glass to as much of the elevator edge as possible. A single small point of attachment is probably not enough. It will also fly just fine with primer or just plain glass if you want to fly it before it gets repainted. "Glue it and do it"!! You can easily check to see what effect the weights will have by simply putting the KR on the scales and placing the weights where they will be mounted. An even easier method , if you have all the current W&B info, is to measure the distance from the 0 datum to the wieghts and do the calculations with a pencil and paper at the kitchen table. Current wisdom is to stay out of the last 2 inches of the W&B envelop. I started playing with crosswinds today. We had 5 to 10mph at about 45 to 60 degrees to the runway. I got in one takeoff and landing before the rain got close and I could hardly tell the wind was blowing. I've noticed lately that I seem to be dragging a bit of brake on occassion so today I used some double sided tape and installed some "screen door bead" on the tops of my rudder peddles to make it more difficult to hit the brakes. That seems to help and I intend to make it a permenant fix. The "screen door bead" I used was a strip of wood approx 1/8" to 3/16" thick and about 1/2" wide and cut in length to the width of the rudder peddle. It seemed to be just lying around the hangar waiting to be pressed into service. I'm waiting for some smooth air to do some climb, glide, and speed testing. As soon as it happens I'll post the results. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:29:12 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>/fuel cost Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040317202912.00878170@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <002101c40c73$16f87310$6197dccb@StationW2k04> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> <3.0.6.32.20040317081819.00878a30@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 > 14 gal of 100LL I recently purchased at the airport for > $38 would have cost me maybe $25 at the local service station. (Larry Flesner) > ------------ > In Australia, 14 US gal = 52.9942 Litres at around $1.10 / lit = >$58.29 Aust. = around $4.16 Aust / US Gal. You Blocks have it good for fuel price in the States. Phillip Matheson +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I complained I had no shoes until I met a man that had no feet". (Author unknow to me) Please forgive my "O woe is me" dribble ! :-) :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:58:48 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>elevator balancing!! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 hi guys thanks for the info I estimate the balancing weights with the arms glassed on to be around 1.4 kg and the computer for the fuel injection weighs 3 kg so I am working with that idea I have not yet got weight and balance figures yet but I feel from how the project is going I should get close with a far forward as possible weight and balance limit I have tricycle undercarrige also!! Time will tell drilling holes into the elevator to attact the arms is a concern and I only really want some bolts there to hold it while glassing I was going to use mill fibre around the area where the foam is removed and thought enough strength should be acheived! I was going to glass the whole length of the arm with about 2 inches of overlap onto the exsisting elevator! cheers Ross _________________________________________________________________ What's your house worth? Click here to find out: http://www.ninemsn.realestate.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:57:48 +1000 From: "Barry Kruyssen" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>If you want to fly soon Message-ID: <005a01c40c94$cd613710$8c00a8c0@T1W419b> References: <3.0.6.32.20040317202802.00875470@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 9 If you are going to fly with just glass you should flow coat it to seal = it and DO NOT sand. If modified my cowling and I am not going to paint it till after = checking temps in the air. I flow coated it with epoxy and squeegeed the excess resin off, thus = filling pin holes and sealing the surface. Regards Barry Kruyssen Cairns, Australia AUF 19-3873 kr2@BigPond.com http://users.tpg.com.au/barryk/KR2.htm >If you want to fly soon, don't balance it. If you want to balance it, = don't >fly soon. > It will also fly just fine with primer or just plain glass if you want to fly it before it gets repainted. "Glue it and do it"!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:02:09 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>Aileron deflection/pitch trim Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040317210209.007b4100@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <000001c40b14$6f1b5450$8a89d141@ownerwam9o2stk> References: <3.0.6.32.20040315084206.00866d90@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 10 >I've seen some planes where "neutral aileron" actually was both >ailerons sagging almost an inch -- when the plane was at rest. Then I >was told that at speed, both came up to level with the aerodynamic >forces -- a bit of give in the system, I guess. Rich Meyer ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rich, You won't catch me flying in an airplane that has "an inch of sagging" in the aileron system at rest. I spent $210 for an electric trim servo just to take the "wiggle" out of my mechanically operated pitch trim tab. Speaking of pitch trim tabs, there was a discussion a while back about saving youself using pitch trim if the primary pitch control were to fail. Using my Ray Allen servo (formerly Mac), I'd give myself about a one in one thousand chance on ever pulling that off and I'm probably being optimistic at that. It's too slow and too far behind the aircraft movements to ever make it happen. I've tried it several times and after about 20 seconds I've basiclly lost it. That's one of those things that sounds good in a conversation but IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN !! I think I could pull it off in the Tripacer but not the KR. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:08:42 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>aircraft performance how fast! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 HI Guys with regards to elevator balancing the guys that have bigger engines 0200's what are the typical performance figures and fuel burn per hour. With out balancing the plans show no elevator balancing and vne is 200mph does flutter become apparent and with balancing does the vne increase as I suspect the vne has been set for this reason but I don't know for sure! cheers _________________________________________________________________ SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here: http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:30:34 -0600 From: "Brant Hollensbe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>/fuel cost Message-ID: <001a01c40c90$fdd90a20$1902a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> <3.0.6.32.20040317081819.00878a30@pop.midwest.net> <3.0.6.32.20040317202912.00878170@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 In order to compare apples to apples, 1 US gallon of av gas in Oz costs $4.16 Australia dollars or $3.10 US dollars . Using today's currency exchange rate > > In Australia, 14 US gal = 52.9942 Litres at around $1.10 / lit = > >$58.29 Aust. = around $4.16 Aust / US Gal. > You Blocks have it good for fuel price in the States. In order to compare apples to apples, 1 US gallon of av gas in Australia costs $3.10 US dollars or $4.16 Australian dollars. Your right Larry, We do have it good! Brant Hollensbe Des Moines, Iowa Bhollensbe@mchsi.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:30:24 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! Message-ID: <000901c40c99$5a062be0$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 Correct me if I appear to be misleading. However increasing weight up front and flying faster with no counter-balance on the elevator should at the very least make it more difficult to trim in the pitch mode. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Evans" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:08 PM Subject: KR>aircraft performance how fast! > HI Guys with regards to elevator balancing the guys that have bigger engines > 0200's what are the typical performance figures and fuel burn per > hour. With > out balancing the plans show no elevator balancing and vne is 200mph > does flutter become apparent and with balancing does the vne increase > as I suspect the vne has been set for this reason but I don't know for > sure! cheers > > _________________________________________________________________ > SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here: > http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:32:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Fuenzalida To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>trailers Message-ID: <20040318033224.92331.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <000601c40c4b$dae2e580$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14 Apparently you have to learn Larry that if you offer something, then everybody will want it too. I would like to have a copy of this one as well. Maybe you can just put it out on the net? Thanks Ray --- Bob Stone wrote: > Larry. > If you have a scanner, will you scan the entire > article and send it to > me. I am in need of a good trailer for a KR-2S. > Since you are so close to > where Ken Rand lived, did you know him? I used to > live on Lasalle Lane in > Huntington,Beach and knew him very well from 1970 up > to the time of his > death. > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx > rstosne4@hot.rr.com > > > ------ Original Message ----- > From: "larry severson" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:30 AM > Subject: KR>trailers > > > > For those who want to use a trailer, instead of a > hangar, look at the > Sept. > > 1991 issue of Kitplane. It contains building > suggestions for the perfect > > (?) trailer. > > > > Larry Severson > > Fountain Valley, CA 92708 > > (714) 968-9852 > > larry2@socal.rr.com > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:00:48 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 hi Joe yeah that would be the case if the plane was past the forward limit kr's that have been set towards the forward limit allow can be loaded better with out going out of balance but yes u are right! I have flown a kr2s in australia and the owner set his plane up and is can carry more fuel and weight and will remain in balance right up to MTOW which is the ideal situation I reckon the plane is still nimble and fun to fly right through the envelope! I beleive with tail dragger's they can fall on there nose with full fuel and no passengers on board. I am interested in what speeds aircraft are attaining with out mass balancing of the elevator as my elevator is built and what peoples oppions are as flutter can be destroy an aircraft inflight! cheers Ross >From: "joe" >Reply-To: KRnet >To: "KRnet" >Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:30:24 -0800 > >Correct me if I appear to be misleading. However increasing weight up >front and flying faster with no counter-balance on the elevator should >at the very least >make it more difficult to trim in the pitch mode. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ross Evans" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:08 PM >Subject: KR>aircraft performance how fast! > > > > HI Guys with regards to elevator balancing the guys that have bigger >engines > > 0200's what are the typical performance figures and fuel burn per > > hour. >With > > out balancing the plans show no elevator balancing and vne is 200mph >does > > flutter become apparent and with balancing does the vne increase as > > I suspect the vne has been set for this reason but I don't know for > > sure! cheers > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here: > > http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _________________________________________________________________ Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:17:27 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! Message-ID: <002f01c40c9f$ec3ef9a0$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 Ross, Imagine someone sitting on the nose as you are flying. Now, you can fly this way with more power OR as soon as the aircraft airflow is disturbed the airplane will return to proper pitch, but will not return to proper altitude as a counter balanced elevator would do.(in other words the aircraft will bounce up and then down through pitch and then take more loss of altitude to return to normal pitch.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Evans" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! > hi Joe yeah that would be the case if the plane was past the forward > limit kr's that have been set towards the forward limit allow can be > loaded better > with out going out of balance but yes u are right! I have flown a kr2s > in australia and the owner set his plane up and is can carry more fuel > and weight and will remain in balance right up to MTOW which is the > ideal situation I reckon the plane is still nimble and fun to fly > right through the envelope! I beleive with tail dragger's they can > fall on there nose with > full fuel and no passengers on board. I am interested in what speeds > aircraft are attaining with out mass balancing of the elevator as my > elevator is built and what peoples oppions are as flutter can be > destroy an > aircraft inflight! > cheers > > Ross > > > > >From: "joe" > >Reply-To: KRnet > >To: "KRnet" > >Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance how fast! > >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:30:24 -0800 > > > >Correct me if I appear to be misleading. However increasing weight up front > >and flying faster with no counter-balance on the elevator should at > >the very least > >make it more difficult to trim in the pitch mode. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ross Evans" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:08 PM > >Subject: KR>aircraft performance how fast! > > > > > > > HI Guys with regards to elevator balancing the guys that have > > > bigger > >engines > > > 0200's what are the typical performance figures and fuel burn per hour. > >With > > > out balancing the plans show no elevator balancing and vne is > > > 200mph > >does > > > flutter become apparent and with balancing does the vne increase > > > as I suspect the vne has been set for this reason but I don't know > > > for sure! > > > cheers > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here: > > > http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > > > KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at > > > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > >_______________________________________ > >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to > http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:11:36 -0000 From: "Mac McConnell-Wood" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Octanes /fuel cost Message-ID: <031301c40cd9$e0b96720$f50be150@tinypc> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay><3.0.6.32.20040317081819.00878a30@pop.midwest.net> <002101c40c73$16f87310$6197dccb@StationW2k04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Matheson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:56 PM Subject: Re: KR>Octanes /fuel cost > 14 gal of 100LL I recently purchased at the airport for > $38 would have cost me maybe $25 at the local service station. > ------------ > In Australia, 14 US gal = 52.9942 Litres at around $1.10 / lit = > $58.29 NB THATS $76.87 IN ENGLAND (SURROUNDED BY OGGIN AND SITTING ON OIL !!!!!!!!!) > Aust. = around $4.16 Aust / US Gal. > Would that be correct > > You Blocks have it good for fuel price in the States. > > > Phillip Matheson > matheson@dodo.com.au > Australia > VH PKR > See our engines and kits at. > http://www.vw-engines.com/ > http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ > See my KR at Mark Jones web > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:14:42 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>aircraft performance / balanced elevator Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040318071442.0088a600@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 18 I am interested in what speeds >aircraft are attaining with out mass balancing of the elevator as my >elevator is built and what peoples oppions are as flutter can be destroy an >aircraft inflight! >Ross ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ross, I think a lot of apples and oranges are being mixed here. Flutter can happen at any speed and is not JUST speed related although speed can be a major factor. The engine size is irrelevant to flutter other than it's relation to speed and finally, balancing the elevator has nothing to do with aircraft stability other than the probably modest affect on CG. I"m using an 0-200 and because of several variables my KR is slower than most using that engine. Without wheel pants I'm getting a solid 150+ mph cruise. I'm in the middle of the CG envelop with me ( 200 lbs) and full fuel (25 gal in wings, no header). My plans size trim tab seems to be suffecient in the CG range I'm flying in but a similar KR which flies in the forward part of the CG range runs out of trim authority with a standard size tab. I think the standard size KR2 with an 0-200 is probably getting close to an honest 180 mph cruise and the 0-200 will probably burn 5.5 to 7.5 gal per hour, depending on the power setting. The elevators can be externally balanced and made to look good. Weights can be added to the ends of the elevator and extend forward along the edge of the horizontal stab. As to the Vne, I'd guess there are more factors limiting the Vne than elevator flutter but hey, I'm not an engineer. I almost forgot, I did balance my elevators. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:33:55 -0500 From: "Brian Kraut" To: "KRnet" Subject: RE: KR>Aileron deflection/pitch trim Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040317210209.007b4100@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 19 I have to tread lightly here becase I know a lot of people have spent a lot of money on trim servos, but I still maintain that a very simple pushrod system like I have on the third picture in this page http://www.engalt.com/flight1.htm is more than adequate, easier to use, and a whole lot cheaper. If I was building another KR I probably would put in elevator, aileron, and rudder trim tabs with electric servos connected to a home built 3 axis autopilot connected to a Dynon. -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of larry flesner Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:02 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR>Aileron deflection/pitch trim >I've seen some planes where "neutral aileron" actually was both ailerons >sagging almost an inch -- when the plane was at rest. Then I was told >that at speed, both came up to level with the aerodynamic forces -- a >bit of give in the system, I guess. >Rich Meyer ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rich, You won't catch me flying in an airplane that has "an inch of sagging" in the aileron system at rest. I spent $210 for an electric trim servo just to take the "wiggle" out of my mechanically operated pitch trim tab. Speaking of pitch trim tabs, there was a discussion a while back about saving youself using pitch trim if the primary pitch control were to fail. Using my Ray Allen servo (formerly Mac), I'd give myself about a one in one thousand chance on ever pulling that off and I'm probably being optimistic at that. It's too slow and too far behind the aircraft movements to ever make it happen. I've tried it several times and after about 20 seconds I've basiclly lost it. That's one of those things that sounds good in a conversation but IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN !! I think I could pull it off in the Tripacer but not the KR. Larry Flesner _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:07:08 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>aircraft performance / balanced elevator Message-ID: <000b01c40d03$109ffd40$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: <3.0.6.32.20040318071442.0088a600@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 20 Several causes of flutter. However, any malformation of the elevator, depends on the malformation. Exceeding Vne coupled with excess loading factor and all bets are off. ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:14 AM Subject: KR>aircraft performance / balanced elevator > I am interested in what speeds > >aircraft are attaining with out mass balancing of the elevator as my > >elevator is built and what peoples oppions are as flutter can be destroy an > >aircraft inflight! > >Ross > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Ross, > > I think a lot of apples and oranges are being mixed here. > > Flutter can happen at any speed and is not JUST speed related although > speed can be a major factor. The engine size is irrelevant to flutter other > than it's relation to speed and finally, balancing the elevator has nothing > to do with aircraft stability other than the probably modest affect on CG. > > I"m using an 0-200 and because of several variables my KR is slower than > most using that engine. Without wheel pants I'm getting a solid 150+ mph > cruise. I'm in the middle of the CG envelop with me ( 200 lbs) and full > fuel (25 gal in wings, no header). My plans size trim tab seems to be > suffecient in the CG range I'm flying in but a similar KR which flies in > the forward part of the CG range runs out of trim authority with a standard > size tab. I think the standard size KR2 with an 0-200 is probably getting > close to an honest 180 mph cruise and the 0-200 will probably burn > 5.5 to 7.5 gal per hour, depending on the power setting. > > The elevators can be externally balanced and made to look good. > Weights can be added to the ends of the elevator and extend > forward along the edge of the horizontal stab. > > As to the Vne, I'd guess there are more factors limiting the Vne than > elevator flutter but hey, I'm not an engineer. > > I almost forgot, I did balance my elevators. > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:13:21 EST From: Flymaca711689@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>learning the hard way about fuel $$$$$$$$$ Message-ID: <1d3.1c6ba27d.2d8b24a1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 21 the vw powered Kr at 8.0 compression or under runs fine on all pump gas. IM now using hi test 93 as were my friend in a Sonirri is using 87 pump. he laughs and says IM still wasting money but i like the 93 and that's my baby and that's how i screw up using avgas 100lL thinking nothings to good for my engine well after 200 hrs 100LL ruined #2 exs seat and guide other wise a nice set of 044 ruined! not cheap. well after call to Steve i rebuilt the vw and re read page #28 of the great planes assembly Manuel in big letters the use of av. gas will shorten the life of valvetrain and exs valves .after 140 hrs on pump gas a check with a boreoscope shows no signs of seat and vavle wear !!!!!!!! the hard way 100ll go out and talk with guys that are using auto fuel all smiles . note keep your compression down and you to will smile and more money for goodies for your baby. im old school and I do give it little marvel oil at times and with money saved I use high doller mobil one all the time mac n1055a flymaca711689@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:52:57 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: KR>Flutter Message-ID: <000a01c40d22$9fb67300$dd64a8c0@homedesktop> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040318071442.0088a600@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 22 I respect airplanes as much as I love them, so when they talk to me I listen. Not many things in airplanes scare me, but when they do - I feel compelled to tell fellow aviators. We have talked about carb ice - I have told you what I know and I will be happy if my input helps one person avoid a bad day. Carb ice (at worst), will turn your airplane into a glider - gliders still fly. Flutter is something very different - it could leave you sitting on a wingless brick. Not many of the folks that have experienced flutter are still around - it is difficult to describe the suddenness and violence of this phenomenon. My concern about flutter has resulted in 15 years of listening, reading, testing and trying. I do not wish to enter into debate on any of this - take it or leave it: (Mark, Dana & Larry exempted) This is KRnet, so my comment applies to everything we are likely to address - however, I would apply the same rationale to a Pietenpol. IN EVERY CASE 1. Mass balance (statically) all control surfaces. This is not critical to the nth degree - just ensure that EVERY completed control surface sort of "hangs level" with the pushrod disconnected. Yes, the rudder is a problem - figure a way to turn the bird on its side - or do the VStab before you mount it. I prefer distributed balance weight where possible - not all in one place. Aerodynamic balance tabs are great - they provide one more place to put some of the counter weight. Get the ballast as far fwd (of the hinge-line) as possible to reduce the amount required. All KR control surfaces are aft of CG, so keep added weight to the essential minimum - it affects CG. 2. Zero slop in the control linkages and hinges (including trim tab). 3. Perfect alignment between the moving control surface and the fixed surface - avoid a step-down between the fixed and the trailing (movable) surface - this introduces turbulence at the TE of the fixed surface, i.e. turbulence over the control surface - I believe that this provokes flutter. If in doubt, make the moving surface a tad thicker than the fixed surface. There has been good advice from some of the netters - viz: = apples and oranges are being mixed here = Flutter can happen at any speed = more factors limiting the Vne than elevator flutter = Flutter can destroy an aircraft in flight! I have also seen information from other netters that makes no sense at all - viz.: = However, any malformation of the elevator, depends on the malformation. Exceeding Vne coupled with excess loading factor and all bets are off. Take care Steve askies(At)microlink.zm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 ************************************* ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================