From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 112 Date: 9/9/2004 2:38:46 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: polystyrene (Stephen Jacobs) 2. Re: polystyrene (Phillip Matheson) 3. Re: PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes (GavinandLouise) 4. RE: polystyrene down under (Stephen Jacobs) 5. Canopy hinge (GavinandLouise) 6. Re: Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes (Dan Heath) 7. Re: RE: KR plans (Dan Heath) 8. Re: Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes (GavinandLouise) 9. Re: Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes (GavinandLouise) 10. (no subject) (rparker) 11. "explosafe" foam (rparker) 12. Re: polystyrene (patrusso) 13. RE: Insurance (Mark Jones) 14. Re: polystyrene (Steve Eberhart) 15. Re: polystyrene (Mark Langford) 16. PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes (larry flesner) 17. Re: RE: Insurance (larry flesner) 18. slow progress (Mark Langford) 19. micro (Eric Evezard) 20. Re: To cool or not too kool (Al Friesen) 21. Urethane Foam (Dean Cooper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:50:42 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> polystyrene To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c49628$97be8400$b464a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you put fiberglass over foam without first squeegeeing in SOMETHING, the fiberglass will not stay attached to the foam for long... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ With respect - I am not convinced the above is correct when it comes to polystyrene (Styrofoam?). This is something I have been trying to understand for months now - what are the salient differences between styrofoam and polyurethane foam in terms of their respective characteristics - strength in shear and surface competence (for adhesion of a skin). Take some duct tape and try to stick it to a sheet of poly-u. The tape will readily come off (fall off) with a thin layer of urethane "dust" coating the adhesive of the tape. I have no difficulty understanding that polyurethane needs something to "bind" and seal the surface in order to achieve any degree of competent surface (suitable for attaching a skin). The same tape attached to a sheet of Styrofoam will take much more effort to remove and will actually tear out individual beads - it has a substantially more competent surface (for sticking things to) - will a slurry mix benefit this in any way? I have built model airplanes up to 40lb (some are now 25 years old) with a variety of wing skins (balsa wood, veneer, glass cloth) attached to styrofoam directly with epoxy. As any modeller will know, these birds are subjected to G loads many times higher than real airplanes - I have never had a failure in the skin attachment. Before I could afford epoxy (1972) I sealed the Styrofoam with a coat of watered down PVC white (wood) glue and used general purpose polyester resin and glass cloth. Very often these wings had no spars so the skin-to-foam bond was critical. Dene (from Gods own country) - your buddy that produces the brilliant Whisper motor glider makes extensive use of white Styrofoam for the wings - maybe ask him what he thinks /recommends !! As I said - with respect. Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:44:24 +1000 From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> polystyrene To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008e01c49630$10df9020$8bb0dccb@StationW2k04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" With respect - I am not convinced the above is correct when it comes to polystyrene (Styrofoam?). --------------- Stev, As I also build large model aircraft, We use a layer of glass and epoxy straight onto the foam, then press and let dry the balsa or veneer and come up with a very very strong finish, We then glass again to seal, or cover with cloth material, depending on aircraft type.and size and weight required. I fly a friends 1/2 scale 100cc Corby Starlet built is way, it is 10 years + old, and gets flown like a Pitts special. never had any problems. Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR at Mark Jones web http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:27:57 +1000 From: "GavinandLouise" Subject: Re: KR> PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002101c49636$25b78100$0100000a@vic.bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can I just add that In a properly balanced turn the fuel will never uncover the fuel pickups!!!!!! gravity has nothing to do with it. It's only when the ball isn't cantered properly this can happen, and also baffles won't stop anything except slosh in the tanks. Gav ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "KRnet" Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: Re: KR> PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes > Larry > > I think that there some people that are aware of the Grumman AA1 which > had a > spar and wing tank of just the very thing. I remember that I was told that > because of the gravity in manuvers that you could run the risk of fuel > starvation. Well, I tend not to think that way what with the > baffleing and > that mesh-net that can be put into the tank. I think that the Grumman > AA1 had baffles in the tank. And, the new extended range tanks for > the AA1 are > 8" dia. agri irrigation pipes. I just think that the whole > conversation about the use of auto gas would come to a hualt with the > use of the pipes as > fuel tanks. > > And it sure seems that with baffleing, the starvation would be cured. > > Greg Martin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "larry flesner" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:46 PM > Subject: KR> PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes > > > > Instead of using PVC wing tanks we > > >could use aluminum thin walled agricultural tubing. the stuff used > > >in the > > >giant traveling irrigators. It comes in standard sizes from 2 to 12 inch > > >diameter, from .050 to 094 wall thickness. << > > >++++++++++ > > >>You just won "most useful post" with that one! > > ++++++++++++++++++++=>++ > > >I agree, but with a question. Would the "explosafe" type foam > > >filler act > as > > >a baffle? if not, what would we use for slosh baffles? Allen G. > > >Wiesner > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > How about a small diameter alum tube with disc welded on at several > > locations slipped inside the larger tube. If the smaller tube were > > hollow and had a number of holes in it you'd not lose much capasity. > > The disc would be self centering and rather light if they had > > several 1/2" diameter holes. > > > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:14:30 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> polystyrene down under To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c4963c$a99895d0$8764a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We use a layer of glass and epoxy straight onto the foam ++++++++++++++++++ There you go now Phil, thank you. In the spirit of the purpose of this group, it would be great to better understand the differences /pro's and con's (and potential) of these two core materials as may benefit KR builders. I need to stop talking and start building, so it would be fantastic for me to establish that I can safely use polystyrene as a competent core material in a 6 to 10mm sandwich. My intention is to follow the original Dr. Dean Collette (sp) route (more recently used by Eduardo Barros). A KR fuselage built in a sort of Vision style. In short, a KR2S fuselage (stretched and widened with rounded corners at the bottom) made up of a framework of 3/8" sq spruce and filled in with the core material. The core material is sanded (hot-wired) flush to the wood frame - then glassed inside and out. The spruce frame work provides the shape and the foundation for a straight (true) fuselage. The glass skin is structural (like in a Vision) and the imbedded spruce framework is not expected to contribute to the strength, but will surely enhance the integrity of the core material in shear - it is now effectively also a latticework of stronger core material with a high shear capability. It will cost a small fortune importing (airfreight) Last-a-Foam or Divinicel and I have very little confidence in the regular 32kg/m3 poly-u that is available (for reason mentioned in the previous posting). If polystyrene will do the trick, I can "slice" it to any sheet thickness I prefer with a hot wire and a 10mm sheet will take a reasonable radius and (with great respect to all) step around the classic KR box shape) I am not alluding to a mouldless construction where the foam is used purely as a non-structural form - I hope to achieve a competent sandwich structure. Even the wing skins (similar to 56ML) can be a true sandwich composite. Take care Steve ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:53:08 +1000 From: "GavinandLouise" Subject: KR> Canopy hinge To: "KR builders and pilots" Message-ID: <006401c49642$0c6d15a0$0100000a@vic.bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Can anybody see any problems with drilling 1/4 holes in the top longerons to secure my canopy hinge? I know 1/4 is a big hole to drill in the longerons but I have been using what we call "T" nuts over here for anything that I can. They are so convenient especially for places like the canopy hinge, where you can never get to the nut again. Problem is I can only get them in 1/4". I'm using 2" open width stainless steel piano hinge for the canopy and the ailerons, I know it's heavier but surely about 1lb in weight is worth saving about $300 AUD for hinges alone. Thanks Gav ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:06:04 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41401CFC.000001.06800@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gavin, I can see your not being able to the to the nut inside the canopy frame, but why can you not get to the nut that is under the longeron. I believe that I have some T nuts as small as #6 and if you mail me off NET, with your address, I will be glad to send you some. And I would have a problem with drilling 1/4" holes in the top of the longeron where it is the weakest as there is no supporting structure over that area. DanRH@AllTel.net "There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, and the time for building has long since expired." See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:16:18 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> RE: KR plans To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41401F62.000003.06800@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: jeanette may bring some to the Gathering, Virg Has anyone asked her to do that? I have never known her to do that before, but it is a great idea. Virgil, if you have not already done so, please ask her to do that. Maybe she should bring a small stock, she might sell some. "There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, and the time for building has long since expired." See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:37:43 +1000 From: "GavinandLouise" Subject: Re: KR> Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000a01c49650$a8334960$0100000a@vic.bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I expected that question and you are exactly right, there is no trouble getting to the nuts under the longerons. I was just trying to keep some things standardised. Thanks I'll contact you off the list. Gav ---- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: Re: KR> Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes > Gavin, > > I can see your not being able to the to the nut inside the canopy > frame, but > why can you not get to the nut that is under the longeron. I believe > that I > have some T nuts as small as #6 and if you mail me off NET, with your > address, I will be glad to send you some. And I would have a problem > with drilling 1/4" holes in the top of the longeron where it is the > weakest as there is no supporting structure over that area. > > DanRH@AllTel.net > > "There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, > and the > time for building has long since expired." > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:41:43 +1000 From: "GavinandLouise" Subject: Re: KR> Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001201c49651$373bcd80$0100000a@vic.bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Do most people drill through the longeron or do they use self tapping wood screws to attach the canopy? Have you ever seen the tiny little hinges holding the door on your average Cessna!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: Re: KR> Canopy hinge - drilling 1/4 holes > Gavin, > > I can see your not being able to the to the nut inside the canopy > frame, but > why can you not get to the nut that is under the longeron. I believe > that I > have some T nuts as small as #6 and if you mail me off NET, with your > address, I will be glad to send you some. And I would have a problem > with drilling 1/4" holes in the top of the longeron where it is the > weakest as there is no supporting structure over that area. > > DanRH@AllTel.net > > "There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, > and the > time for building has long since expired." > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:09:39 -0500 From: "rparker" Subject: KR> (no subject) To: n56ml@hiwaay.net Cc: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040909110939.8236.qmail@server278.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dress them up to look like bombs ! Just be careful flying to the northeast - We have fighters running up here down the Connecticut river along the Vermont/NH border. I think they are trying to keep the Vermonters out of the USA. And stay out of sight of the nuke plants! ;--) Rich Parker Peterborough, NH rparker@wwhotspots.com http://theparkers.wwhotspots.com/ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:14:32 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> PVC Fuel tanks To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003501c495b6$8bdf9a10$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rich Parker wrote: >> A guy at work had a great suggestion. Instead of using PVC wing tanks >> we could use aluminum thin walled aggricultural tubing. the stuff used in the giant travelling irrigators. It comes in standard sizes from 2 to 12 inch diameter, from .050 to 094 wall thickness. << You just won "most useful post" with that one! That's exactly what I'll need if I ever decide to add some range with wing tanks. A 60" long tube 6" in diameter would give me over 7 gallons, all of which would be usable. One in each wing would have to be considered "ultra long endurance". They'd be practically wieghtless, except for the fuel... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:15:34 -0500 From: "rparker" Subject: KR> "explosafe" foam To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040909111534.9858.qmail@server278.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I also looked into that. My good friend is a cheif engineer for Rogers Foam who used to supply explosion proof foams to the military for fuel tanks and others. His exacts words were "they got out of that business, we tried them all and they all shed particles that clog fuel lines" Rich Parker Peterborough, NH rparker@wwhotspots.com http://theparkers.wwhotspots.com/ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:39:01 -0400 From: "Allen Wiesner " Subject: Re: KR> PVC Fuel tanks To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001e01c495c2$5988fb40$0000a398@CPQ69645694259> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> A guy at work had a great suggestion. Instead of using PVC wing tanks >> we could use aluminum thin walled agricultural tubing. the stuff used in the giant traveling irrigators. It comes in standard sizes from 2 to 12 inch diameter, from .050 to 094 wall thickness. << >You just won "most useful post" with that one! I agree, but with a question. Would the "explosafe" type foam filler act as a baffle? if not, what would we use for slosh baffles? Allen G. Wiesner KR-2SS/TD S/N 1118 65 Franklin Street Ansonia, CT 06401-1240 (203) 732-0508 flashyal@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:13:51 -0400 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> polystyrene To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001901c4965e$20ba77c0$dfa972d8@3z4xt01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have used blue and pink styrofoam insulation directly from the local building supply store for my entire aircraft Using West System Epoxy, I slurried after vacuuming thoroughly, squeege off the slurry, lightly lay in a coat of straight epoxy, apply 6 oz. clothe and squeege again. So far so good! Pat in Vermont ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Jacobs" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:50 AM Subject: RE: KR> polystyrene > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:04:41 -0500 From: Mark Jones Subject: KR> RE: Insurance To: 'Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft' , KR Net Message-ID: <370D915E4564D611B0530050DABB9FC201902B5E@SIC-EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain As a follow up on getting insurance quotes, I received a reply to my request for insurance from Avemco yesterday. They told me that the KR aircraft is a non insurable aircraft with them. They also stated they will not insure a Corvair engine. They did state they would do liability only for property damage but no medical for pilot or passenger. They sent me a special form to fill out for the liability insurance on the KR/Corvair and there must have been a hundred questions on it plus I think they would probably want a blood sample, a hair sample, a urine sample, a bowel sample, and last but not least, your right arm. (just kidding on that last sentence). Needless to say, I just marked them right off my list. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI -----Original Message----- From: Mark Jones [mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:57 PM To: KR Net; Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft Subject: Re: CorvAircraft> Insurance This is just a FYI. Today, I received an insurance quote from Jim Nelson of Falcon Insurance: HULL VALUE: $20,000 HULL PREMIUM: $1,124 DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION: $2000 IN-MOTION: $2000 LIMIT OF LIABILITY: $500,000 combined single limit bodily injury and property damage excluding passenger liability. LIABILITY PREMIUM: $258 MEDICAL PAYMENTS: $3,000 Including Crew MEDICAL PREMIUM: $18 TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM: $1,400 (This is a package price) I was very open and explained that I have a Corvair Conversion done to William Wynne's specs and have 22.6 test run hours on the engine. I also explained that I had no flight time in a KR yet had a couple hours of taxi time. Insurance is obtainable on a Corvair powered aircraft. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: CorvAircraft> Insurance > Has anyone read the writeups in the latest Kitplanes issue concerning > aircraft insurance? They get opinions from 2 or 3 of the largest insurance > companies that insure aircraft and at one point they mention that > auto conversion > aircraft are almost impossible to insure. They didn't indicate > whether they > meant hull insurance, liability or both. Makes me wonder what percent > of homebuilers fly without insurance, especially auto conversion > homebuilts. I am > working on my first homebuilt, a Pietenpol using a Corvair. I don't really care > about hull insurance but don't know about flying without liability. > > Rick Holland > Colorado _________________________________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to CorvAircraft-leave@mylist.net > Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html > _________________________________________________________ to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to CorvAircraft-leave@mylist.net Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:06:18 -0500 From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> polystyrene To: KRnet Message-ID: <4140473A.2030605@newtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I don't jump into very many discussions anymore, but, I just can't resist when the answers are already well known and a little study will reveal them. OK, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Rutan has already done that for you. The book "Moldless Composite Sandwich Homebuilt Aircraft Construction" is the definative work on using fiberglass/foam structures in aircraft construction. If you are still debating how to use foam and glass, get the book. Stephen, one of the points you are missing is that the styrofoam we use for model airplane wings is CLOSED cell while the foam used for full scale aircraft construction is OPEN cell. This is why you don't need to micro model wings and you do full scale wings. Read the book, it explains everything. Better yet, watch the video. Both can be ordered from Wicks. Steve Eberhart http://www.newtech.com/nlf/ 91 MIN 21-35830 24.95 BUILDING RUTAN COMPOSITES A step-by-step program featuring Burt Rutan showing the complete process for utilizing his fiberglass-epoxy-foam construction 91 min. VHS BURT RUTAN CB 14.50 COMPOSITE BOOKLET The book "Moldless Composite Sandwich Homebuilt Aircraft Construction" consists of 26, 11 x 17 pages (equal to 52 pages) describing how the material is applied, education on the materials, tools required, inspection and repair methods. Written by Rutan Aircraft Factory. This book is included in the practice kit number CK. Stephen Jacobs wrote: > If you put fiberglass over foam without first squeegeeing in > SOMETHING, the fiberglass will not stay attached to the foam for > long... > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > With respect - I am not convinced the above is correct when it comes > to polystyrene (Styrofoam?). > > This is something I have been trying to understand for months now - > what are the salient differences between styrofoam and polyurethane > foam in terms of their respective characteristics - strength in shear > and surface competence (for adhesion of a skin). > > Take some duct tape and try to stick it to a sheet of poly-u. The > tape will readily come off (fall off) with a thin layer of urethane > "dust" coating the adhesive of the tape. I have no difficulty > understanding that polyurethane needs something to "bind" and seal the > surface in order to achieve any degree of competent surface (suitable > for attaching a skin). > > The same tape attached to a sheet of Styrofoam will take much more > effort to remove and will actually tear out individual beads - it has > a substantially more competent surface (for sticking things to) - will > a slurry mix benefit this in any way? > > I have built model airplanes up to 40lb (some are now 25 years old) > with a variety of wing skins (balsa wood, veneer, glass cloth) > attached to styrofoam directly with epoxy. As any modeller will know, > these birds are subjected to G loads many times higher than real > airplanes - I have never had a failure in the skin attachment. Before > I could afford epoxy > (1972) I sealed the Styrofoam with a coat of watered down PVC white > (wood) glue and used general purpose polyester resin and glass cloth. > Very often these wings had no spars so the skin-to-foam bond was > critical. > > Dene (from Gods own country) - your buddy that produces the brilliant > Whisper motor glider makes extensive use of white Styrofoam for the > wings - maybe ask him what he thinks /recommends !! > > As I said - with respect. > > Steve J > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:21:10 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> polystyrene To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003c01c49667$7ddc8b60$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve Jacobs wrote: > With respect - I am not convinced the above is correct when it comes > to polystyrene (Styrofoam?). You're right. I was talking about urethane foam. And it all depends on the process. I suppose if you were to lay dry fiberglass onto the wing and pour epoxy all over it, you'd eventually end up squeegeeing epoxy (heavy as it is) down in to the pores and it would work. But that's not how I do it. I lay mine up on plastic and apply just enough epoxy to wet it out, and not a gram more, then squeegee it into contact onto the foam. If I did that (with urethane foam) it wouldn't stick very well at all. That was my point. No doubt that polystyrene would do slightly better, but it still would be far from optimal IF you put used the method that I use, getting the fiberglass perfectly wet out (not too much epoxy, not too little) and then squeegeeing into contact. It all depends on how much epoxy you have on the glass when you start squeegeeing it into contact, and I suppose that's a varible you could control to make it work. Maybe I didn't give him enough credit. I'll do it my way, and he's welcome to do it his way. I was just trying to keep folks from getting the impression that micro under glass (over foam) is not as much of a "no-no" as his message stated, and in fact is acceptable and lighter if you build using the methods and materials detailed in the plans. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:47:36 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> PVC Fuel tanks/ alum tubes To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040909074736.00797b70@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:27 PM 9/9/04 +1000, you wrote: >Can I just add that In a properly balanced turn the fuel will never >uncover the fuel pickups!!!!!! gravity has nothing to do with it. It's >only when the ball isn't cantered properly this can happen, and also >baffles won't stop anything except slosh in the tanks. Gav ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have wing tanks only and electric fuel pumps on my KR, no header tank. I have often flown drawing from one tank only but normally fly with both tanks on. The only time in 92 hours I've had a fuel starvation problem was when I accidently turned both tanks off !! DUAHHHH ...... I was climbing through 2000 feet and suffered a SENIOR MOMEMT. I had the engine running again in a matter of 3 or 4 seconds but it certianly got my attention. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:51:12 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> RE: Insurance To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040909075112.007f6100@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, Returning the application with the "bowel sample" only should get your point across! I have liability only through Avemco as that is the only place I could get it before first flight. I plan on changing to someone much cheaper in the future. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:11:47 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR> slow progress To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004801c4966e$8fd24e70$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" NetHeads, I don't know about the rest of you guys that are almost finished, but I'm just about tired of folks asking me when it's going to fly! As proof that I'm still a long way away, I offer the photo at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/wing_art.jpg , which clearly shows that I'm still knee-deep in the dreaded wing-sanding phase. The rest of the plane has the coat of urethane primer that it's going to fly in for the next year, but the wings were still coated with five layers of Smooth Prime, which takes some effort to sand away. And this "little chore" is not even on my list of 32 things I need to finish before I fly it! I'm not far from shooting a coat of urethane primer on the bottom of this one, but I've still got the other side of this one and a whole 'nuther one to go. I'm getting there though, just not fast enough to make the Gathering this year. To go ahead and answer that question, I really think I'll be flying it in November. I kinda like the idea of first flights in the Winter, because cooling issues will not be as big a problem, and I'll have time to fine tune it as things warm up in the Spring. I'm going to get some Swift time on Saturday, to work on my taildragger skills some more. After talking to Bill Clapp, I really feel like I could fly mine with the skills I have right now, but I guess we'll see about that. See y'all at the Gathering... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:50:11 +0200 From: "Eric Evezard" Subject: KR> micro To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004701c4969d$eac7a1c0$c8ce07c4@r5c9m8> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark I agree that "something must be put on the foam otherwise it wont stay on for long"--quite right -- the glass will fall onto the floor !!! You may have read my letter out of context.but I did also state that it is better to have too much resin than too little.I thoroughly saturated my foam before applying the glass.The Quickie 2 that I helped with used a different foam and we applied micro slurry to seal the foam.Stephen thanks for your coming to my defence and for the nice compliments (looks like a pylon racer)Stephen I will contact you off line re my nice wrapped canopy and dont try and figure out my undercarriage,This was a fix from Tony Bingelis book which the Engineer would not accept(Books again)and I had to cut my wings open to remove the gear .Its a long story.I also used braided cable over the alternator cables and fuel pump cables as per "book" and the engineer made me remove themI also used connectors as per EAA magazine and the engineer made me remove them and solder the joins.So much for books and mags.I suppose I had better dig a fox hole now.During WW 2 the GIs used to make foxhole radios out of a bit of pencil lead and a Schick razor blade and headphones.It did not take us kids long to copy them.(and get their hands on a set of headphones.)When are you going to fly Mark ? Best Regards Eric Evezard, S.Africa. ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:32:53 -0800 From: "Al Friesen" Subject: Re: KR> To cool or not too kool To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006401c496ac$2e934040$2d3451cf@alk1e9f7i3pcg3> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Orma, If you have the temp sensor under the plug 450 is not a problem on take off. The revflo carb as installed in the Revmaster puts the fuel into the manifold aft of the carb rich on the left bank. I put a fuel deflector it the manifold aft of the carb to get the fuel to the right bank, I have a revflow carb. If the carb was rotated so that the fuel entered the manifold 0 or 180 degree the fuel distribution would be equal to each side of the engine. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Orma" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: KR> To cool or not too kool > Hello Net > I now feel that I am writing the episodes in the continuing saga of > Orma's > KR. By 9 this AM I had added the fuel pump and this regulator type > device( It seems that restricts the flow of fuel, as opposed to > controlling pressure). I ran the engine and for the first time I knew > that I was running rich at WOT. In fact so rich that the engine tried to > quit. I found that when the pump is on, I did not get an anticipated > flood of fuel. The engine seemed normal till I reached the part where I > had carved a step in the needle. At that point, the engine flooded. > After several trial settings, I installed the last needle that I got from > Joe at Revmaster. To get the best run, I would start with the fuel off > and after a warm up I would push the throttle to WOT and turn on the pump. > But, the real question is what about the temp. I made a 3 minute run at > WOT, controlling the flooding by moving the mixture control. I was able > to hold the temp of #3 to 450. The engine was turning 3000 and 30 MP. > This is the first time that I was able to see the effects of the fuel > cooling the cylinder. This is still not too Kool. I need to cool the > thing down at least another 50 degrees. I can live with 400 CHT on > takeoff. All the time that I have had the CHT gauge in the cockpit, and I > don't remember what the takeoff numbers were on the old engine. What are > some of the takeoff numbers that other get? > > Orma > Southfield, MI > N110LR celebrating 20 years > To the gathering or bust _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:37:58 -0400 From: "Dean Cooper" Subject: KR> Urethane Foam To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008e01c496b5$466752c0$0502a8c0@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Netters, I just got off the phone with an old friend of mine (who I haven't talk to in several years) who is in the insulation business here in Jax. I was looking for urethane foam in bulk thicknesses. He said he gets it in bun sizes 41"x 29"x 96" long and can cut it to any specifications I need. His price is $0.50 (US) per board foot (12x12x1) or $6 per cubic foot. That appears to be about 40% cheaper than Wicks with no shipping since I would pick it up. It would also be great to have one soild piece of foam for the leading and trailing edges for the wings. Is there anything I should be looking for or cautious of when buying this from a non-aviation parts company? I looked through the archives and couldn't find anything specific to this question. Thoughts? See you in Mt. Vernon! Dean Cooper Jacksonville, FL Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net See my KR project at www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 112 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================