From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 175 Date: 10/22/2004 8:59:24 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Glass fuse (Stephen Jacobs) 2. Glass fuse (and other nonsense) (Edward Seaman) 3. Glass fuse (Colin & Bev Rainey) 4. Embarrassing Moments (JIM VANCE) 5. RE: Embarrassing Moments (Stephen Jacobs) 6. Re: UK builders (terry jones) 7. Re: UK builders (Ron Butterfield) 8. Re: Re: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 173 (raybeth123@sbcglobal.net) 9. Re: UK builders (JAMES FERRIS) 10. Fw: Another new Kr2 (Mark Langford) 11. Re: KR 3 (peter) 12. KR Plans on eBay (Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff) 13. Re: KR Plans on eBay (patrusso) 14. Re: KR 3 (peter) 15. blowing your own canopy? (Dan Heath) 16. Copperstate Flyin (James Zuehls) 17. RE: Glass fuse (Doug Rupert) 18. RE: Embarrassing Moments (Doug Rupert) 19. Re: KR1 (RENOSADLER@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:47:56 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Glass fuse To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c4b7fa$b5528e50$b564a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Doug I really like Eduardo's way of making a KR fuse and it would suite me just fine to see things the same way you do. I would like to start my project in January and this is one of the few outstanding issues. I cannot imagine anything worse that looking at a complete fuselage or wing etc. and realizing that you opted for a bum idea /material /technique and created a pile of junk. My reservations stem from Zeke Smith's teachings - what are your thoughts on that? To reiterate, he opens the relevant chapter with this comment: Quote: The following simple puzzle illustrates the effect of using two materials of different stiffness in the same structure - end quote The punch-line of the lesson is: Quote: This illustrates a principle that carries into practical composite aircraft design. Some designs which use mostly E-glass fiber make use of carbon (graphite) fiber for spar caps. Carbon is much stiffer than glass, so the carbon will carry nearly the entire spar cap load. If any glass is used in parallel with the stiffer carbon, the glass component is essentially wasted because it will never experience enough strain to carry a useful load - the carbon fiber gets nearly all the load, just like in the puzzle with the stiff chain and the soft bungee - end quote. In the true spirit of KRnet, we all strive to lean and understand more about the tools, materials and techniques we use. To progress this discussion, it would help if you addressed the particular comment that you do not agree with so I can either learn from your input, or clarify my position and take the discussion to the next level. This way we will ultimately conclude the discussion and one or both of us will learn something (along with any other netters that were interested). With some luck we may even lure one of the informed netters into setting us straight. As above, what is your reaction to Zeke Smith's teaching? Take care Steve ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:12:59 +0100 (BST) From: Edward Seaman Subject: KR> Glass fuse (and other nonsense) To: KRnet Message-ID: <20041022071259.77730.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Steve you have to think about what you just wrote there. Not much difference between foam and ply except for density and weight. If the skin is properly laid up per manufacturers spec the resulting structure will be the same. Mahogany ply is widely available around the world and has been used for years in aircraft construction the same as spruce. Reinforcing these woods with glass, whether E, S (my preference due to it's low cost and higher resistance to heat), Kevlar or Carbon will only make the resulting structure stronger. None of this is engineering but only logic as both wood and foam absorb resin during the lay-up process. Edwardo's idea allows a much easier fuselage construction in my humble opinion as the wood formers definitely take the guesswork out of sanding the foam to shape and assure that both sides are identical. It also allows an infinite choice of shapes as witnessed by the War Replica designs that follow the KR type box boat with wooden formers added to allow the builder to replicate what ever design he/she has chosen. Doug Rupert Simcoe Ontario >> >>> >> Steve - I hope you get the answer and also tell me as this is exactly what I would like todo. The one thing between me and a KR is the boat structure. I realize that many have been made like that and most of them look very good. I helped someone do this and the plywood was creaking when he pulled the sides together. the plywood was already stressed nearly to breaking before the thing even looked like an aeroplane never mind started bearing flight loads. As said many times before the sides bow to a banana shape even more when you increase the seat width. This is an interesting and valid KR topic. at least one KR is being built this way and if ron and steve and me are interested in eduardos way then help us get it right or stay away. Doug - lets look at some of what you say and maybe you must also think about what you say. "Not much difference between foam and ply except for density and weight" Well - also not much difference between lead and feathers, just the colour. Oh and the weight. "If the skin is properly laid up per manufacturers spec the resulting structure will be the same." The manufatures spec calls for ply so anything else is not properly done and not as per the manufacturers spec - that is the whole point of this discussion. "Mahogany ply is widely available around the world and has been used for years in aircraft construction" I dont think anyone will dispute that it is widely used for aircraft. Steve J, you have been caught out telling fibs - you said good ply was a problem for you in africa, shame on you. "Kevlar or Carbon will only make the resulting structure stronger" Steve, better tell this zeke fella he has it all wrong - you can mix and match carbon and even kevler with spruce, ply, lead and feathers. no problem. (BTW My brief experience with kevlar was definitely the last. It may be good for bulletproof vests but not good for composite work. trust me.) "None of this is engineering but only logic" Phew - I was starting to worry. im no Engineer but I amok with logic "both wood and foam absorb resin during the lay-up process" I had this one all wrong. I figured that the whole idea behind a micro slurry (paste?) over the core was to prevent any unwanted weight build up from absorbed resin. "War Replica designs that follow the KR type box boat with wooden formers added to allow the builder to replicate what ever design he/she has chosen." Total agreement with this one - the WAR replicas have a complete KR type boat with the plywood and all - complete and competent being the point, no deviations or material substitution. The moldless foam appendages are non-structural fairings to achieve a given appearance. i think this is a bit different from the present topic that is all about glass foam as an integral part of the structural integity of the boat. Sorry gang - maybe unneccessary to say it this way, but it is an interesting and relevantKR topic and it would be magic if we had some informed input as why this is OK or not Ok or how to better do it. I did feel obliged to state point for point why I dont see any contribution value from dougs input. Edward ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:17:47 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Glass fuse To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00e701c4b820$61406190$2d432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gentlemen Please remember to delete most of the previous post before "replying" to a post or everyone has to suffer to read yours. If you want to play it safe, then buy the plans for the KR2S, and build bulkhead male formers to the fuselage shape, then connect them with 1x1 stringers of cheap pine, and cover with Lastofoam 1/2 inch thick. Use the same Glass that is called out in the wings, I believe 5/8oz BID and cover the foam after appropriate treatment prep. The micro slurry is to fill the porous surface of the foam, so as to make for full contact of the glass, not to create the contact. Anything added to the epoxy/hardener mix is referred to as a reinforcement, whether it be cotton flox, micro, or the glass itself. I would still bond in the four lengthwise longerons for strength, but otherwise you are good to go. Check out the Vision webpage for additional ideas, support for this type of construction applied to the KR. Then continue the plans as normal. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:23:32 -0500 From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: KR> Embarrassing Moments To: "krnet" Message-ID: <005a01c4b82b$77dea140$0500a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Building airplanes is like raising a family. By the time you are finished, you have finally figured out how to do it right. That's why grandparents are so neat!! Jim Vance ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:19:13 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Embarrassing Moments To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000701c4b831$5eda4e50$6364a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Building airplanes is like raising a family. By the time you are finished, you have finally figured out how to do it right. That's why grandparents are so neat!! ++++++++++++++++++ Oh so very wise - thank you Jimbo I will make a plaque with those words (for when I am a gramps) Have a great weekend Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:16:33 +0100 From: terry jones Subject: Re: KR> UK builders To: KRnet Message-ID: <41790831.3050004@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi All. 'Twould seem that my thoughts on building the KR2S in the UK will not be coming to pass. This morning I had a communiqué from the PFA telling me that the machine as yet is NOT type approved in the UK. Good luck to all of you out there having fun building/flying yours. Terry Jones. >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:35:28 -0400 From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: KR> UK builders To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041022093502.01b1bec0@pop.mebtel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed At 09:16 AM 10/22/04, you wrote: >Hi All. >'Twould seem that my thoughts on building the KR2S in the UK will not >be coming to pass. This morning I had a communiqué from the PFA telling >me that the machine as yet is NOT type approved in the UK. You might want to try and find this guy: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/katkinson/ Regards, RonB ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:21:09 -0500 From: Subject: Re: KR> Re: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 173 To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001801c4b84a$c2e38d80$08519445@DELL> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I like your spirit, Brian Ray goree ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: KR> Re: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 173 > In a message dated 10/21/2004 10:22:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > krnet-request@mylist.net writes: Well here I was with a 1/4" drill bit > locking pin holding my canopy locked closed and no tools to get it > out. After about five minutes I realized I had my cell phone and I > had to call my answering machine in the house about > 15 times to wake up my wife so she could come to the garage and get me a > pair of pliers to pull out the drill bit. I had a hell of a time getting > her to wake up and was about to call Dean Cooper and ask him to drive over > and get me out. > > Don't try this one yourself. > > Brian Kraut > This made me giggle I love this crowd who else would have a story like > this? > > "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are > doing it." George Bernard Shaw, (1856-1950) Irish playwight and winner > of the Nobel Prize for Literature 1925 Yours Bill > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:48:18 -0400 From: JAMES FERRIS Subject: Re: KR> UK builders To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041022.114819.1588.0.mijnil@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 This seems stupid as it would be easy to approve it since it is copied from he Taylor monoplane RAF48 airfoil and wood spars and but the foam and fiberglass. All the would need to do is build a couple of test specimens and load them to failure, the same solution as the current fuselage discussion on this list. Sincerely Jim PS. It doesen't take a structural engineer to know that. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:35:28 -0400 Ron Butterfield writes: > At 09:16 AM 10/22/04, you wrote: > >Hi All. > >'Twould seem that my thoughts on building the KR2S in the UK will > not be > >coming to pass. This morning I had a communiqué from the PFA > telling me > >that the machine as yet is NOT type approved in the UK. > > You might want to try and find this guy: > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/katkinson/ > > > Regards, > RonB > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:33:22 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR> Fw: Another new Kr2 To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004901c4b865$9ca2f730$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Terry wrote: > > 'Twould seem that my thoughts on building the KR2S in the UK will not > be > > coming to pass. This morning I had a communiqué from the PFA telling > me > > that the machine as yet is NOT type approved in the UK. So I sent a message to UK's resident KR expert Willie Wilson who sent the following... > Terry, > The PFA may not have given the KR2S there approval but they HAVE > APPROVED Ken Atkinson's modified KR2. Ken's KR2 is [from memory] 14.5" > longer than a standard KR2 and is virtually a KR2S. It handles > beautifully and cruises easily at 110Kts on an 1835cc VW engine. > > Don't give up! Give Ken a ring or > his PFA inspector Geoff Bailey-Woods, who drew the > alterations and negotiated them with the PFA. > I understand that the PFA have suggested a wing attach fitting > modification to enable an all up weight of 1,000lbs which would mean you > could carry a passenger legally in the UK. > > Willie Wilson So maybe there's hope for the KR2S in England. I sure hope so, because it's a vast improvement over the KR2! It'd be a crime to force people to build a less-than-optimal version of the plane, when the same amount of effort is required to build either one. William Wynne recently had his single plug ignition system approved by the PFA, by simply proving that he'd been doing it for years and presenting his case to them in a sensible manner. Actually, a Brit did it for him, but the fact remains that you CAN get things changed if you are right and persevere. Up until now, you couldn't certify a plane with only one set of plugs in the UK, but now you can! Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 07:42:48 +1300 From: peter Subject: Re: KR> KR 3 To: jsaupe6848@earthlink.net, KRnet Message-ID: <001201c4b866$eee6bad0$537365da@PWE01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Saupe" To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: KR> KR 3 > Hi all, > when I was looking through the paperwork that came with my kit, there was a 4 page parts catalog (black and white) and on the back page it listed the products as: KR1, KR1-B MOTORGLIDER, KR2 and KR3 AMPHIBIAN. > Does anyone have knowledge or any kind of info on that KR3? > I have no clue what year this was produced but believe my kit was originally purchased 1986-7. > > > > Joachim Saupe > jsaupe6848@earthlink.net > Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:02:39 -0700 From: "Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff" Subject: KR> KR Plans on eBay To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008301c4b869$b3891980$6401a8c0@charlesmidkiff> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original If anyone is interested, there is a set of KR2 plans for sale on eBay. Here's the Item number: 2496338252. The current price is 24.99. Bud Midkiff KR2S Lynnwood, WA email: c.midkiff@verizon.net My KR website: http://mysite.verizon.net/res18ums/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:45:04 -0400 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> KR Plans on eBay To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000b01c4b86f$a0e59e60$91a972d8@3z4xt01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Anyone out there with plans or ideas on blowing your own canopy? ---- > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:36:17 +1300 From: peter Subject: Re: KR> KR 3 To: jsaupe6848@earthlink.net, KRnet Message-ID: <001301c4b87f$2abf6440$09aaa7cb@PWE01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sorry, original message got deleted on previous posting! I have a KR Newsletter #32 of Feb 1978 which reports of a crash of prototype KR3 N3 3KR, pilotted by Jack Moell, cause attributed to Low speed control reversal, and resulting in delay of plans release. I don't know if they were ever released. Regards, Peter Wastney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Saupe" To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: KR> KR 3 > Hi all, > when I was looking through the paperwork that came with my kit, there was a 4 page parts catalog (black and white) and on the back page it listed the products as: KR1, KR1-B MOTORGLIDER, KR2 and KR3 AMPHIBIAN. > Does anyone have knowledge or any kind of info on that KR3? ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:45:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> blowing your own canopy? To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41797F7B.000001.02748@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Talk to Todd of Todd's Canopies before you get so far into that project that you cannot get out. I had an article on that subject around here, but cannot find it now. The bottom line, was, unless you want another project besides building your plane, don't even think about it. We formed, not blown, our own windshield and I would never even attempt that again. There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:59:37 -0500 From: "James Zuehls" Subject: KR> Copperstate Flyin To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c4b893$300a4820$6401a8c0@desktophp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I noticed that two KR’s received 1st and 2nd in the Custom Built Wood category. Congratulations to Steve Glover of Trabuco Canyon, Ca. for his first place KR-2 and to Jeff Scott of Los Alamos, NM for his second place KR-2S. It is good to see fellow KR builders bringing honor to the KR. Jim Zuehls Fort Dodge, Iowa jjzuehls@frontiernet.net --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/2004 ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:45:09 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Glass fuse To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001301c4b8a1$ee9eb380$4f3cd0d8@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Eduardo's site was one of the main reasons I chose the KR design in the first place, it's simplicity and adaptability to change. The more KR's I see the more I know I made the right decision as it seems hard to find 2 KR's that are identical or built strictly to plan. It seems that most have been altered to suit the owner/builders personal preference. The War Replica aircraft have a terrible safety record even though they are only half as fast as a KR. That in itself should speak volumes as to the basic design. The KR on the other hand, while it also has a checkered safety record as per NTSB records, has little design faults and most accidents are attributed to engine failure or pilots with little or no tail dragger experience. By design the KR is a high performance aircraft and must be treated as such. I think the best analogy would be putting a Piper Cub student pilot in an F-14. One hell of a ride, although very short. My building time is becoming rather limited now as it seems that the Vietnam War Draft dodgers now want to erect a monument to themselves in Nelson British Columbia. For it's part the City of Nelson did the best thing they could have done in such a delicate predicament. They contacted the Vietnam Veterans in Canada for help so time is rather tight now. For those interested, more information on the issue are invited to visit our website at www.vvic.org and feel free to ask any questions you may have. Sorry that this has nothing to do with KR's but does explain my lack of progress in building. Doug Rupert Simcoe Ontario ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:45:09 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Embarrassing Moments To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001401c4b8a1$f00d5eb0$4f3cd0d8@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jim ever think it's cause grandparents are often deaf after raising children and just turn off their hearing aids? Doug Rupert -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of JIM VANCE Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:24 AM To: krnet Subject: KR> Embarrassing Moments Building airplanes is like raising a family. By the time you are finished, you have finally figured out how to do it right. That's why grandparents are so neat!! Jim Vance ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:47:37 EDT From: RENOSADLER@aol.com Subject: KR> Re: KR1 To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <146.36a4422b.2eab2e59@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" lookin for a set of plans for front deck and turttle deck for kr1,have an old set circa 1971/2 can just bearly read. if anyone could direct me in that direction. thanks Bill RENOSADLER@aol.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 175 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================