From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 230 Date: 12/5/2004 8:59:23 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. For the season (Karl) 2. Engine CAD drawings (Peter Leonard) 3. Leaders or Followers - long (Stephen Jacobs) 4. RE: For the season (Stephen Jacobs) 5. Project update (Ron Smith) 6. Re: Project update (Kevin Farley) 7. Re: Project update (Ron Smith) 8. Re: Project update (Robert L. Stone) 9. Re: Project update (Dan Heath) 10. LOOKING FOR A RIDE OR A LOOK IN THE SF BAY AREA (Dennis Mingear) 11. Scott Cable's KR Project before the sale (Dan Heath) 12. Re: Scott Cable's KR Project before the sale (Dan Heath) 13. Re: Project update (Ron Smith) 14. Re: Project update (Ron Butterfield) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 03:22:22 +1300 From: "Karl" Subject: KR> For the season To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <01c4da0c$ac9316c0$4e56b4ca@doreenba> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I know this not what the net is for, but with chrismas on the way..... > >Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from the >CivilAviation Authority, and the examiner arrived last week for the >pre-Christmas flight check. In preparation, Santa had the elves wash >the sled and bathe all the reindeer. Santa got his logbook out and made >sure all his paperwork was in order. He knew they would examine all his >equipment and truly put Santa's flying skills to the test. > >The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked the reindeer >harnesses, the landing gear, and even Rudolph's nose. He painstakingly >reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the sled's >enormous payload. > >Finally, they were ready for the check-ride. Santa got in >and fastened his seat belt and shoulder harness and checked the >compass. Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a >shotgun. "What's that for!?" asked Santa incredulously. The examiner >winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell you this ahead of time," as >he leaned over to whisper in Santa's ear, "but you're gonna lose an >engine on takeoff." > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:06:32 +1000 From: "Peter Leonard" Subject: KR> Engine CAD drawings To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <003a01c4dac2$dd38bc10$fa362fca@X15> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" G'day KRnetters Can anyone help with AutoCAD drawings for the Rotax 912S and /or the Jabiru 3300. I would like 3 view drawings of both these engines so I can incorporate them into my own cad drawings. It will save me a lot of time trying to do it myself and it will give a very good idea of how much room I have in my engine compartment. So if any of you can supply the drawings or know where on the net I might be able to download them please get in touch with me. If you can help e-mail me direct at pleonard@gil.com.au Thanks in advance Peter Leonard ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:44:56 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: KR> Leaders or Followers - long To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <002e01c4dad0$9f221440$5964a8c0@stephen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The designer during the design and structural analysis process considers the holes, both locations and diameters, and load being applied to determine the final size requirements. To continue the design process of the spars, the designer determines the landing gear strut load conditions. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ The sensible approach to building an airplane (if you really must) is surely to buy plans or a kit from a reputable designer and build the airplane according to plan. Fact is, few of our species want to go this way, including (with respect) Ken and Stu - in fact, if they had followed this sensible logic when they each wanted an airplane, the KR would never have been born. No matter how strong your feelings may be, getting wound up, insulting and cussing will not achieve anything other than cause rifts - and silence those that already say very little (generally the smart ones who's input we really need). It is sound advice that tells us NOT to mess with things unless we know precisely what we are doing, cannot fault that. For me, even better advice is where to find the skills you need to come over and help you mess with whatever you want messed with. I am sure that is what R&R did, there is just no way they used the core design "as is" for all the products. What they came up with has proved to be adequate - not sure when Jim Marcy got involved, but if they did not know, they sure found someone that did, just like we can. To get a neat KR off the ground is going to cost at LEAST $10k plus a few years of dedication. Another $2k ?? for the right skills check the changes that make it perfect for you is a bargain. The original KR was a copied from the Taylor Monoplane (designed in 1956, 1st flight 1959). I don't know what was available in the way of epoxies, polystyrene, urethane, Dynel etc. 10 years earlier, but we can be sure that when the first KR was conceived, Rand and Robinson changed more than just the name. They seem to stay with the basic configuration, dimensions and wing section, but they took off the blinkers - history says that even their U control model airplane experience came into play - I think this is wonderful, they were true leaders in experimental aircraft. The original Monoplane had a fixed u/c similar to that on a DH Chipmunk, but the KR1 rev 1.0 emerged with a retractable landing gear. A clever concept, but one resulted in many holes being bored in the centre section spar caps for the various pivots and locks. I am sure they did the necessary and "messed with it some" - none have ever failed. This 500lb Monoplane evolved along the same basic structure to become a 1,000lb, two seat, 200 mph (up to) airplane. Most of the completed airplanes have been stretched and widened with more power added and a higher gross weight. I have little doubt that John Taylor engineered (and probably tested) the primary structure to good old British WWII standards, but I sincerely hope that R&R messed a bit with the structure on the way to the KR2. The true contribution by R&R was the concept, the materials and method revealed to the homebuilder - FLEXIBILITY. Maybe that is why less that 120 Monoplanes were ever built, but 20 times as many KR's are flying (or in the pipeline). I am NOT trying to get up anyone nose here - just make the point that our kind (the species that will opt for a KR above all other designs) aspire and dream about how it will ultimately look - different - that is the very essence of this design (concept) and it gets worse every time another great looking KR takes pops up on my screen. . Telling them to build it like it is and leave well alone, takes (for me) a bit of the spin out of the airplane. I bet that each flying KR owner is very happy with his unique, very own airplane - after all, he made it that way. If he is unhappy with some aspect - he will soon take it out back and add a belly flap, nose gear, whatever. It is a scary thought that some builders may have unwittingly done something silly that will someday hurt them - I would hope that this forum will go a long way to preventing that. I have little doubt that the originators were responsible in what they did, and that the present design is adequate (structurally safe), but like anything, it can be improved. It is this builder's intention to change everything that does not suite or appeal to his vision - but to ensure that each change is scrutinized and approved by someone competent. Test wing spars will be built (using white pine, builder's ply and carpenters wood glue) and loaded to failure. It can be done in a weekend, costs very little, gives some practice, and settles concerns. Yes, I know there is a bit more to it than that - this is just one for instance!! Have a great Sunday Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:58:31 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> For the season To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000201c4daeb$ad544f90$5564a8c0@stephen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" but you're gonna lose an engine >on takeoff." ++++++++++++++++++ Brilliant ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 12:42:37 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Smith Subject: KR> Project update To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041205204237.10092.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Knetters! I have nearly completed the fuselage structure of my KR2SSXL. I say "SSXL", because the structure is 42" at the shoulders, inside dimensions, 44.25 outside (approximately 6" wider than plans), 41" inches at the firewall. I have constructed the bottom of the fuselage to conform to the shape of the AS5048 airfoil. I raised the top longeron 2". I used all 14' of the longeron material that came with the kit, adding an additional station which I refer to as India-alpha, after station India, and also an additional station after Mike, that I call Mike-alpha. I had to cut off 2 inches of the length to fit the tail. I didn't have the foresight to layout the tail section to incorporate the 1" and 3/4 width of the tail post. By the way the tail post-vertical stabilizer section is poorly presented in the plans, IMHO. I do have the tail post fitted as of last night. I am not skinning the fuselage with plywood. I plan to make a composite "sandwich" of foam and carbon graphite. The reasons I chose to do this are, 1. SOUND. I believe the plane will be more quiet with the foam construction. (My plane will also have exhaust mufflers) 2. AESTHETICS. I think the inside of my cockpit will look better in carbon graphite than 5/8 spruce. 3. WEATHER PROOF. Every wood surface will be covered in epoxy, essentially sealing it forever. I think I might also have a small weight savings, although I'm not 100% sure of that. I am starting this week on the spars. I plan to built them with the dihedral bend at the fuselage wall. "Bent Spars" as they have become known. I have taken many photos and have been trying to make a web site (without success). I have a couple of Cd's with Hi res pics. If anyone is will to post them to the net I will gladly send them via mail. Building an aircraft AND a web site is TOO MUCH for me. I leave that to smarter people like Mark L. and others. Best wishes to all, Ron Smith Cypress, Orange County, Calif. 714-231-9605 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 14:49:56 -0600 From: Kevin Farley Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: KRnet Message-ID: <38C3A4EA-46FF-11D9-AF18-000D9346403A@k-farley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hey Ron, Just wondering. Do you have a place to store your website at? Meaning, do you have a server, and/or a domain for all the pictures to be placed. Kevin Farley On Dec 5, 2004, at 14:42, Ron Smith wrote: Hello Knetters! I have nearly completed the fuselage structure of my KR2SSXL. I say "SSXL", because the structure is 42" at the shoulders, inside dimensions, 44.25 outside (approximately 6" wider than plans), 41" inches at the firewall. I have constructed the bottom of the fuselage to conform to the shape of the AS5048 airfoil. I raised the top longeron 2". I used all 14' of the longeron material that came with the kit, adding an additional station which I refer to as India-alpha, after station India, and also an additional station after Mike, that I call Mike-alpha. I had to cut off 2 inches of the length to fit the tail. I didn't have the foresight to layout the tail section to incorporate the 1" and 3/4 width of the tail post. By the way the tail post-vertical stabilizer section is poorly presented in the plans, IMHO. I do have the tail post fitted as of last night. I am not skinning the fuselage with plywood. I plan to make a composite "sandwich" of foam and carbon graphite. The reasons I chose to do this are, 1. SOUND. I believe the plane will be more quiet with the foam construction. (My plane will also have exhaust mufflers) 2. AESTHETICS. I think the inside of my cockpit will look better in carbon graphite than 5/8 spruce. 3. WEATHER PROOF. Every wood surface will be covered in epoxy, essentially sealing it forever. I think I might also have a small weight savings, although I'm not 100% sure of that. I am starting this week on the spars. I plan to built them with the dihedral bend at the fuselage wall. "Bent Spars" as they have become known. I have taken many photos and have been trying to make a web site (without success). I have a couple of Cd's with Hi res pics. If anyone is will to post them to the net I will gladly send them via mail. Building an aircraft AND a web site is TOO MUCH for me. I leave that to smarter people like Mark L. and others. Best wishes to all, Ron Smith Cypress, Orange County, Calif. 714-231-9605 _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 13:27:30 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Smith Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: KRnet Message-ID: <20041205212730.51925.qmail@web81705.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kevin Farley wrote: Hey Ron, Just wondering. Do you have a place to store your website at? Meaning, do you have a server, and/or a domain for all the pictures to be placed. Kevin Farley Hi Kevin, I've been trying to get them loaded on my Geocities site that I purchased for 8.95 a month. It keeps telling me that the files for upload have to be .jpg format and gives me an error message to that affect. Well the pics are in .jpg format!!! I just don't have the time to be on the phone with Yahoo trying to figure it out. I was able to load one page of six photos, but when I tried to use "page builder" that's when it came to a screeching halt. I'm supposed to be able to have 1gb of space, but as I said I just don't have the time to mess with it. Ron Smith, Cypress, Orange County, Calif. 714-231-9605 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:31:59 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: Message-ID: <41B37E4F.000001.03556@YOUR-AT5QGAAC3Z> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron, In regard to this which you wrote: "I am starting this week on the spars. I plan to built them with the dihedral bend at the fuselage wall. "Bent Spars" as they have become known." Are you going to just make the center spar shorter, that is the same width as the fuselage and then extend the length of the wings so that the total wing length stays the same? If so where will you attach the landing gear? If you attach the landing gear to the center spar even out as far as you can, this might make the main wheels so close together as to cause problems landing. I have heard this was one of the problems with the Premier fighter used in england during WWll, the Spitfire. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstone4@hot.rr.com -------Original Message------- From: KRnet Date: 12/05/04 14:44:45 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Project update Hello Knetters! I have nearly completed the fuselage structure of my KR2SSXL. I say "SSXL", because the structure is 42" at the shoulders, inside dimensions, 44.25 outside (approximately 6" wider than plans), 41" inches at the firewall. I have constructed the bottom of the fuselage to conform to the shape of the AS5048 airfoil. I raised the top longeron 2". I used all 14' of the longeron material that came with the kit, adding an additional station which I refer to as India-alpha, after station India, and also an additional station after Mike, that I call Mike-alpha. I had to cut off 2 inches of the length to fit the tail. I didn't have the foresight to layout the tail section to incorporate the 1" and 3/4 width of the tail post. By the way the tail post-vertical stabilizer section is poorly presented in the plans, IMHO. I do have the tail post fitted as of last night. I am not skinning the fuselage with plywood. I plan to make a composite sandwich" of foam and carbon graphite. The reasons I chose to do this are, 1. SOUND. I believe the plane will be more quiet with the foam construction. (My plane will also have exhaust mufflers) 2. AESTHETICS. I think the inside of my cockpit will look better in carbon graphite than 5/8 spruce. 3. WEATHER PROOF. Every wood surface will be covered in epoxy, essentially sealing it forever. I think I might also have a small weight savings, although I'm not 100% sure of that. I am starting this week on the spars. I plan to built them with the dihedral bend at the fuselage wall. "Bent Spars" as they have become known. I have taken many photos and have been trying to make a web site (without success). I have a couple of Cd's with Hi res pics. If anyone is will to post them to the net I will gladly send them via mail. Building an aircraft AND a web site is TOO MUCH for me. I leave that to smarter people like Mark L. and others. Best wishes to all, Ron Smith Cypress, Orange County, Calif. 714-231-9605 _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:37:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41B38DB8.000005.03796@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" That is a rip off. I pay $142 for a 2 year contract with http://webhostingetc.net and I can download anything that I want. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering -------Original Message------- I've been trying to get them loaded on my Geocities site that I purchased for 8.95 a month. It keeps telling me that the files for upload have to be jpg format and gives me an error message to that affect. Well the pics are in .jpg format!!! I just don't have the time to be on the phone with Yahoo trying to figure it out. I was able to load one page of six photos, but when I tried to use "page builder" that's when it came to a screeching halt. I'm supposed to be able to have 1gb of space, but as I said I just don't have the time to mess with it. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 14:47:13 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Mingear Subject: KR> LOOKING FOR A RIDE OR A LOOK IN THE SF BAY AREA To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041205224713.9053.qmail@web51410.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Good Morning Net, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and fly out of Concord, Byron and Rio Vista airports. My wife and I would like to sit in a KR2/S and see just what we are getting into project wise. I ordered Dr. Dean wing attach fittings years ago and it may be time to put them to work, but sitting and/or riding in a KR first would certainly help us make a "Final Decision!". Anyone out there in the general area willing to help would be greatly appreciated. My e-mail address is dennismingear@yahoo.com Thanks ... Denny and Joanne --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:36:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> Scott Cable's KR Project before the sale To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41B3A9A3.000003.02144@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" At the gathering this year, Scott gave me a CD containing the last of his work on the KR project that he sold this year. It has some very good examples of some excellent workmanship and ideas. Aileron control fittings, center consoles, seats, and many others. I will leave it on the site as long as I have room. Thank you Scott, and it was good to see you and Michelle at the gathering this year. I regret that we did not have more time to spend together. I hope to see you in Mt. Vernon next year. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:41:01 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Scott Cable's KR Project before the sale To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41B3AA9D.000007.02144@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The link is: http://kr-builder.org/ScottCable/index.html Sorry about that. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering -------Original Message------- From: KRnet Date: 12/05/04 19:37:50 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Scott Cable's KR Project before the sale At the gathering this year, Scott gave me a CD containing the last of his work on the KR project that he sold this year. It has some very good examples of some excellent workmanship and ideas. Aileron control fittings, center consoles, seats, and many others. I will leave it on the site as long as I have room. Thank you Scott, and it was good to see you and Michelle at the gathering this year. I regret that we did not have more time to spend together. I hope to see you in Mt. Vernon next year. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html . ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:21:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Smith Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: KRnet Message-ID: <20041206022127.73186.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Robert L. Stone" wrote: Ron, In regard to this which you wrote: "I am starting this week on the spars. I plan to built them with the dihedral bend at the fuselage wall. "Bent Spars" as they have become known." Are you going to just make the center spar shorter, that is the same width as the fuselage and then extend the length of the wings so that the total wing length stays the same? If so where will you attach the landing gear? If you attach the landing gear to the center spar even out as far as you can, this might make the main wheels so close together as to cause problems landing. I have heard this was one of the problems with the Premier fighter used in england during WWll, the Spitfire. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Hi Bob, I'm leaning toward Grove landing gear. That will eliminate the clearance problem. Dave Mullens has a link to Grove on his sight, and Mark Lankford does as well. I will be making it a Trigear. I have about 25 hours in a C152, so I want the trigear because of the lack of experience. With the Grove gear I should be able to convert the plane to a tail dragger later if I so desire, although I probably wont. Thanks for the reply, Ron Smith, Cypress ca. 714-231-9605 ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:24:26 -0500 From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: KR> Project update To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041205232310.03076eb0@pop.mebtel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:42 PM 12/5/04, Ron Smith wrote: >I have constructed the bottom of the fuselage to conform to the shape >of >the AS5048 airfoil. I would be really interested to see this. I played with the idea for a bit, but didn't like the way it looked (at least with what I came up with). Regards, RonB ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 230 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================