From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 24 Date: 7/11/2004 8:59:54 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: What's a speed break? (larry severson) 2. Re: Spins? (larry severson) 3. Re: TKM MX11 Squelch Control (larry flesner) 4. RE: Spins? (Brian Kraut) 5. Re: Spins? (resend long but worth it) (Wesley Scott) 6. RE: Spins? (Stephen Jacobs) 7. Re: TKM MX11 Squelch Control (Kenneth L Wiltrout) 8. Re: TKM MX11 Squelch Control (larry flesner) 9. Gathering info (larry flesner) 10. Re: Aerobatics in the KR? (Dene Collett (SA)) 11. Gathering attendees (larry flesner) 12. Re: Gathering attendees (patrusso) 13. Re: Gathering attendees- where to get gathing information (Dan Heath) 14. 75 Days and counting!!! (Mark Jones) 15. Re: 75 Days and counting!!! (Mark Jones) 16. KR1 for sale (Robert L. Stone) 17. RE: BMW engines adn Diesel Engines (Wolfgang Decker) 18. Gathering/ wing gap cover (larry flesner) 19. Prefab bits vs self manufactured? (Duncan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:41:00 -0700 From: larry severson Subject: Re: KR> What's a speed break? To: KRnet Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040710213658.0245fed0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I am sure that Larry F. will be glad to tell you all about the speed >brake. > >From what I read, it has become very popular recently. Our KR does > >not have >one and I would not add the weight and complexity and crowd up the tiny >cockpit for what it would be worth to me. However, I do think they are >a good thing if you are willing to pay the price for it. I have gotten involved also with the Q2 list. They have a different speed brake set up that has the hinge at the back with a cable that holds the front. The cable runs over a pulley and lifts the brake up to a faired position. In terms of installation effort and weight, it certainly has advantages over the standard speed brake, and the one normally installed on the KR2. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:45:26 -0700 From: larry severson Subject: Re: KR> Spins? To: KRnet Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040710214347.024b9a68@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >How does the KR handle spins? While most of the KR drivers do not spin them, the design should handle spins beautifully. I have not gotten my plane in the air; however, I have heard of flyers who have wrung them out. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:41:42 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> TKM MX11 Squelch Control To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040711064142.008f5da0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Thanks Larry, your insight is always appreciated, I was trying to think >if the S could mean something else as I did not want to untune it or >something. What I really need to do is ty it down and run it at full >throttle and then set it. After 2500rpm is where the ign noise >starts.Live and learn---IKS NAY to auto plugs!!----------------------- Kenny ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kenny, That sounds like a problem you may have to fight from the noise end. Mark Langford had some post recently that related to electrical noise. Adjusting the squelch too high will keep you from receiving all but the closest and strongest signals. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:52:33 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> Spins? To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I disagree that the KR should handle spins beautifully. According to Dan Raymer's design book if you draw a line up and back at 60 degrees from vertical from the leading edge of the stabilizer and 30 degrees from the trailing edge of the elevator that is the area that is blanked in a spin and in turbulant air. At least a third of the rudder should not be in that area for good spin recovery. It has been a little while since I did the calculations on the KR, but it has more than a third in that area. That combined with the relatively small and short coupled rudder makes it a plane that is not recommended to be spun. A 2S should come out better since you have more rudder effect since the tail is longer. My new KR will also have a rudder where the bottom will extend aft a little further to give me more area under the elevator blanked area. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of larry severson Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:45 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Spins? >How does the KR handle spins? While most of the KR drivers do not spin them, the design should handle spins beautifully. I have not gotten my plane in the air; however, I have heard of flyers who have wrung them out. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:47:33 -0500 From: "Wesley Scott" Subject: Re: KR> Spins? (resend long but worth it) To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001501c46756$01791f60$72a20a04@pbrain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I originally sent this at 2:44 am. The total size was just over 4000 bytes so maybe it was eaten by the list serve. I cut the included FAR and Larry's response that said: my plane is not flying, but I've heard others have done it. Before you start spinning, think about how much of a safety factor you want. Apparently back in 1995 there was concern that the wing attach fittings were not strong enough for the 2S because of the longer wing and should be reinforced if "maneuvering extensively at gross weights exceeding 980 pounds." It was then found that the analysis was "based on outdated strength properties for AIAI 4130 steel." After revising the strength properties the fittings were found to have a safety margin of 16.4 percent based on a gross weight of 1050 of pounds and an ultimate load factor of 6.0, which corresponds to a limit load factor of 4.0. Which puts the plane into the normal category (see FAR 23.337). Spins are prohibited for normal category aircraft. Granted that 4.4 (the utility load factor) is only a 10 percent increase over 4.0 and you had a 16 percent margin so you might be able to conclude that you have a plane that would qualify as utility. Of course, there is another 10 percent increase with that extra gross weight at 1150 which puts you out of the safety zone. Okay, play like the spam cans and put a weight limit for utility operations. The analysis assumed a stock KR2S. So those of you who have widened the fuselage and removed an inch or two of 48 inch chord flying surface, how has that affected the load distribution? How much of that load was transferred to the outboard wings? How much safety margin is left? And then there is the question "how much faith do you have in those fittings?" How many times have the wings been removed and reinstalled? Are the bolts uniformly tightened? Have the holes been reshaped? Did you drill the holes correctly? Did someone else drill the holes correctly? Does the batch of steel your parts are made from have at least the strength used in the fitting analysis, i.e. does it meet Condition N, specification MIL-S-18729? Checking the archives there was some problem with "Bendable wing fittings" posted on Feb 12 and 13 of 1998. Apparently, quality control was inadequate and somebody ended up with a set of fittings that was substandard. Did you? And even if the wing will handle it, will everything else? What about baggage boxes? See Mark Langford's pictures of the 2003 gathering where Marty had a sudden loss of elevator control. http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/redoak2003/ How high would the "pucker factor" be if you lost elevator control while trying to recover from a spin? In conclusion, the plane isn't designed for spins, so don't spin it. -- wesley scott kr2@spottedowl.biz ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:19:04 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Spins? To: "'Wesley Scott'" , "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c4675a$6ab3eab0$da64a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In conclusion, the plane isn't designed for spins, so don't spin it. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Has a KR1 / 2/ 2S ever been in a spin, intentionally or otherwise - does anyone know? Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:30:45 -0400 From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Re: KR> TKM MX11 Squelch Control To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040711.123045.2368.0.klw1953@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Larry------------------you are correct, I flew 6399U this morn and just bumped the squealch ever so slightly, now the radio is noise free till someone keys up on the same freq. What I did notice is that ATIS from RDG ( which is approx 20 mi away) no longer triggers the radio till I get to about 13 mi of the airport, but tower communications still wk ok. I left the screwdriver in the plane as insurance as I may need to reverse things in the event that I call Philly and they don't answer, but for the time being I'm not being driven nuts by that incessant buzzing. This winter it will get rectified as I'm going back to aviation plugs and a new harness----------------LIVE AND LEARN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:41:42 -0500 larry flesner writes: > > > >Thanks Larry, your insight is always appreciated, I was trying to > think > >if the S could mean something else as I did not want to untune it > or > >something. What I really need to do is ty it down and run it at > full > >throttle and then set it. After 2500rpm is where the ign noise > >starts.Live and learn---IKS NAY to auto > plugs!!----------------------- > Kenny > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Kenny, > > That sounds like a problem you may have to fight from the noise > end. > Mark Langford had some post recently that related to electrical > noise. > > Adjusting the squelch too high will keep you from receiving all but > the closest and strongest signals. > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:08:50 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> TKM MX11 Squelch Control To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040711130850.007d5d00@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:30 PM 7/11/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi Larry------------------you are correct, I flew 6399U this morn and >just bumped the squealch ever so slightly, now the radio is noise free >till someone keys up on the same freq. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The "TEST" button on the radio will break the squelch. For those faint signals or transmittions that are breaking up, just hold in the "test" button. Holding in the "test" button will allow you to hear the ATIS at the 20 mile range again. For those of you that are flying with an old 360 chanel radio and want to pick up the ASOS or AWOS transmitters, tune to the closest frequency and turn off the squelch. They come in just fine. Example: ASOS 119.125 - tune to 119.1 or .10 whatever it is. It always worked for me before I got the 720 chanel in the Tripacer. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:23:07 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Gathering info To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040711132307.008fbce0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some on the KRnet are not aware of or missed the post about the www.krgathering.org web site. If you haven't already checked it out please do so now and continue to check back for updates. If you intend to make the Gathering, please do the "pre-registration" form on the site to give me a better idea of how many will be attending. Thanks....... "Woopie" for breakfast, fly the KR all morning, chili dogs for lunch!!! Man, I hope I don't do myself in before the Gathering!!!!!!!!!! Larry Flesner - 2004 KR Gathering host ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:40:53 +0200 From: "Dene Collett \(SA\)" Subject: Re: KR> Aerobatics in the KR? To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000001c46787$20166140$37e5fea9@telkomsa127179> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Guys I have done rolls in a KR2 and I know the same plane did loops as well without any problems. It was powered by a type4 VW 2.0L. Dene Collett KR2S-RT builder Port Elizabeth South Africa mailto: dene.collett@telkomsa.net P.S: checkout www.whisperaircraft.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: KR> Aerobatics in the KR? > Hi, > I've searched the archives of this list, and have not really found > much, so > here goes with my question: > > Can one perform 'recreational' aerobatics in a Corvair-powered KR2? > > Before you dash off a reply pointing out that I should look elsewhere > for a > more suitable aircraft, let me hasten to add that I'm not asking if it > can handle competition type aerobatics, I know it can't. I'm asking > because I'm about to do a 15-hr aerobatics course, and I would really > like to spend > some of those long summer afternoons practising a few loops and rolls. > I know the Sonex, for instance, (whose airframe is rated to roughly > the same G-forces, and which uses the VW conversion) is certainly > rated for mild aerobatics. So, what about the KR? > > Duncan > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:37:28 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Gathering attendees To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040711153728.008ff980@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Netters, I had a request to post the names of those preregistered for the Gathering as a motivator and a double check or registrations. Here is a cut/paste of those registered by June 9, my last update. Some may have registered since them and I will get another update soon. The part I'm wondering about is that the majority are requesting shirts XL. Are you sure you're all building KR's ? :-) Larry Flesner (names below) Bob Lee Russ Fenlason Ed Janssen Colin Rainey John Roffey Joe Weber Jack Cooper Mark Jones Ray Goree Brian G. Douglas Dan Heath Mark Langford Larry Flesner Tom Horch allen wiesner Owen MacPherson Jim Morehead Bob Vermeulen LOREN GOBLE Paul Mueller kelly lindblad Paul Nunn Robert Morrissey Ray Goree Brian G. Douglas Bill Goree ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:02:52 -0400 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> Gathering attendees To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001101c4678a$6f94ff80$2fa972d8@3z4xt01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Have just joined your group this week,...where is this gathering???? and where can I get that seam tape to cover the gap on the wing joint? Just moved plane to airport and am about to attach wings. Pat russo. Bradford, Vermont ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 4:37 PM Subject: KR> Gathering attendees > > Netters, > > I had a request to post the names of those preregistered for the > Gathering as a motivator and a double check or registrations. Here is > a cut/paste of those registered by June 9, my last update. Some may have registered > since them and I will get another update soon. The part I'm wondering > about is that the majority are requesting shirts XL. Are you sure > you're all building KR's ? :-) > > Larry Flesner (names below) > > Bob Lee > Russ Fenlason > Ed Janssen > Colin Rainey > John Roffey > Joe Weber > Jack Cooper > Mark Jones > Ray Goree > Brian G. Douglas > Dan Heath > Mark Langford > Larry Flesner > Tom Horch > allen wiesner > Owen MacPherson > Jim Morehead > Bob Vermeulen > LOREN GOBLE > Paul Mueller > kelly lindblad > Paul Nunn > Robert Morrissey > Ray Goree > Brian G. Douglas > Bill Goree > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:41:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Gathering attendees- where to get gathing information To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40F1C230.000003.01916@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" http://www.krgathering.org "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:57:09 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: KR> 75 Days and counting!!! To: "KR Net" Message-ID: <005801c4679a$65797660$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:59:59 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> 75 Days and counting!!! To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006601c4679a$cb4a86a0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Oooopps make yhat 74 days and counting>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!! Be there!!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR Net" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: KR> 75 Days and counting!!! > > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:19:40 -0500 (Central Standard Time) From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: KR> KR1 for sale To: "KR Builders KR Pilots" Message-ID: <40F1CB0C.000003.02780@YOUR-AT5QGAAC3Z> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message for the member who has the KR-1 for sale. Please contact me off Net Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstone4@hot.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:00:33 -0400 From: "Wolfgang Decker" Subject: RE: KR> BMW engines adn Diesel Engines To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, as far as I can tell from the one that works in my Passat (1.9 liter TDI) it is way over 100 kg. Also, the torque is "only" 149 ft.lb., although it develops that torque at 1,900 rpm already, which would make it perfect for a direct drive engine. The weight is somewhat comparable to a O-320 or O-360, so if you think you can get one of those into a KR-2 than go for it. These engines are somewhat comparable to the aero-diesels that are currently under development in Europe. The newer Diesel engines built by VW and Audi have highly improved injection systems and motor management. They now inject the fuel with up to 2,000 bar, and have a separate pump for every cylinder. The engine computer also is improved. I will keep an eye on the development of these new diesels, and since I will start my KR-2 this winter I still have a little time to finally commit to an engine. Wolfgang -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Doug Rupert Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 10:48 PM To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR> BMW engines adn Diesel Engines What does a regular VW diesel weigh? Don't know the specs but they are plentiful and rebuilding a diesel is a snap. Doug Rupert _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:24:27 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Gathering/ wing gap cover To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040711212427.007a72b0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Have just joined your group this week,...where is this gathering???? >and where can I get that seam tape to cover the gap on the wing joint? >Just moved plane to airport and am about to attach wings. Pat russo. >Bradford, Vermont +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The 2004 KR Gathering will be held at Mt.Vernon, Illinois. go to http://www.krgathering.org for all the info. As for the "seam tape" builders have used just about everything you can imagine. Duct tape will work. I used aluminum flashing material. It is very light weight and comes in a 10 foot roll that is six inches wide. Cut it down the middle and one roll is enough to do a KR. Mine was supposed to be temporary but I've got 76 hours on the KR now and haven't even started the permanant fiberglass ones yet. Good luck with your project. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:14:14 +1200 From: Duncan Subject: KR> Prefab bits vs self manufactured? To: krnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040712150855.0446ad90@styx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, I am getting to the point where I'm about to mail my cheque for the KR2S plans, and just want to double-check with you about some things. First, R/R list prices for all sorts of prefabricated bits. If cost were not a factor I'd buy the lot. I have no desire to be a hero and make every single part if I don't have to. But the reality is that I need to add 50% to all USD prices and then add freight as well as local GST. Costs mount up pretty quickly when one does that. So I plan to buy what I have to, and make the rest if I can. In your opinion, which prefabricated parts are more desirable than others, or which ones are just not worth the hassle of making oneself? A realistic compromise is what I'm looking for. A related question: I noticed that the KR2S spruce kit prices at Wicks and AircraftSpruce both differ from each other and (quite markedly) from the price quoted by R/R. What's up with this? Is there an essential difference? Who do I buy this from, and exactly what do I need to buy? Finally, the one-piece Grove gear looks simple enough. Has anyone bent their own 2024-T6 gear to the Grove specs? Regards, Duncan ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 24 ************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================