From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 256 Date: 12/28/2004 8:59:10 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. OT scheduled krnet.org and fly-kr.com servers upgrades (George) 2. RE: Trim Tube/Cable (Doug Rupert) 3. RE: Trim Tube/Cable (Dan Heath) 4. trim cable/ control surface loss (larry flesner) 5. Re: trim cable/ control surface loss (Dan Heath) 6. Re: trim cable/ control surface loss (JSMONDAY@aol.com) 7. RE: trim cable/ control surface loss (Brian Kraut) 8. cable/ control surface loss (larry flesner) 9. RE: trim cable/ control surface loss (larry flesner) 10. RE: trim cable/ control surface loss (Dan Heath) 11. Re: trim cable/ control surface loss (Ed Janssen) 12. Re: Trim Tube/Cable (Mark Langford) 13. Re: Trim Tube/Cable (Kenneth B. Jones) 14. RE: trim cable/ control surface loss (Brian Kraut) 15. Looking to trade T-Bird 2 for KR? (william walsh) 16. First Flight (Barry Kruyssen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:37:48 -0500 From: George Subject: KR> OT scheduled krnet.org and fly-kr.com servers upgrades To: KRnet Message-ID: <41D199EC.10201@hsweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Friends, Due to server upgrade scheduled Dec 29, at 11:00pm krnet.org and fly-kr.com will get disabled temporarily as the upgrade progresses. The entire process may take 2 - 4 hrs. Sorry for inconvenience. George Majewski ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:49:42 -0500 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Trim Tube/Cable To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001801c4ed0e$0d335710$8b04e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Smart man Larry. Personally I'd rather do a dead stick into the woods of Northern Ontario where there are no clearings than handle any high performance aircraft with total loss of elevator. Correct me if I'm wrong here guys but comparing the flight characteristics of a KR to a Tri-Pacer is ludicrous, damn near like comparing an F15 to a 747. Doug Rupert -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of larry flesner Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 4:50 PM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Trim Tube/Cable Personally, I'll take losing an engine , 10 to 1, over losing either elevator or ailerons. You hardly need rudder if the wheels are not in contact with the ground. Larry Flesner -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:32:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Trim Tube/Cable To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41D1DF07.000001.01288@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What I want to know is, has anyone ever heard of anyone ever loosing any of the control surfaces on a KR? The only one that I ever heard of was when a balance weight came off and the aileron fluttered, and that is only hearsay. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:54:13 -0600 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041228165413.00809a40@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:32 PM 12/28/04 -0500, you wrote: >What I want to know is, has anyone ever heard of anyone ever loosing >any of the control surfaces on a KR? The only one that I ever heard of >was when a balance weight came off and the aileron fluttered, and that >is only hearsay. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The only loss of control surface I'm aware of happened several years to a gentleman named Ralph Smith. I think he was from Indiana. It appears he lost elevator control at or near the airport on landing when the elevator control horn broke. At least that's what I recall hearing at the time of his accident. He unfortunately didn't survive. Investigation of the accident indicated that all control cables were intact and the broken horn was not a result of the accident. I'm going from memory here and may not have all the facts correct. I met Ralph at one of the KR Gatherings in Tennessee back in the early 90's. He was a friendly individual that I ended up giving a ride to the motel and back several times. Stories like that caused me to be maybe a bit over cautious on building. I have a double elevator horn as I attached a weight to one of them. As far as losing an actual control surface, I've never heard of that. Losing the cable attach would be just as serious and put you in the same situation. Loss of control is loss of control, regardless of the reason why. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:05:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41D1F4E7.000001.01712@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It is hard for me to understand what could cause an elevator horn to break. I can see the stresses put on the rudder horns by the pilot. The only fear that I would have with the elevator, is something coming loose, like a cable attach. Back to building. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering -------Original Message------- The only loss of control surface I'm aware of happened several years to a gentleman named Ralph Smith. I think he was from Indiana. It appears he lost elevator control at or near the airport on landing when the elevator control horn broke. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:11:58 EST From: JSMONDAY@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <5b.6008f421.2f03504e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Rudder horn could take quite a bit of stress if you had toe brakes and really mashed down on the pedals, thinking you were on the brakes. John Monday KR2S Laguna Beach, CA ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:39:41 -0500 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I snapped off a rudder pedal and almost took out some lights at the end of the runway in a KR once. Turned out to be a bad weld in the 5/8" pedal tubing. It only had about 50% penetration. It didn't fail in over 100 hours because the previous owner did not have the hydraulic brakes with the brakes on te rudder pedals. I am all for going extra beefy on the rudder horns. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces+brian.kraut=engalt.com@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+brian.kraut=engalt.com@mylist.net]On Behalf Of JSMONDAY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:12 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss Rudder horn could take quite a bit of stress if you had toe brakes and really mashed down on the pedals, thinking you were on the brakes. John Monday KR2S Laguna Beach, CA _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:40:56 -0600 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> cable/ control surface loss To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041228184056.007af640@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It is hard for me to understand what could cause an elevator horn to >break. I can see the stresses put on the rudder horns by the pilot. The >only fear that I would have with the elevator, is something coming >loose, like a cable attach. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Cable coming lose is the most likely failure but consider this. I have a taildragger and on every landing (200+ so far) ,when the tail settles, I go full back stick. That and all the "controls free and correct" times on the checklist make how many limit hits. If my control stop was not at the stick but instead was the control horn hitting the H.S. spar and me pulling on the stick, how may pulls or jerks would it take to fail the horn or break out the cable attach hole. Maybe more than my lifetime but then again, maybe not. Personally, I'd rather not have to worry about it. What causes something to fail in one aircraft and not another? If it's not design/material/assembly then it's probably the usage pattern. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:13 -0600 From: larry flesner Subject: RE: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041228184713.0080e100@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I snapped off a rudder pedal and almost took out some lights at the end >of the runway in a KR once. Turned out to be a bad weld in the 5/8" >pedal tubing. It only had about 50% penetration. It didn't fail in >over 100 hours because the previous owner did not have the hydraulic >brakes with the brakes on te rudder pedals. I am all for going extra >beefy on the rudder horns. >Brian Kraut +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I know it's not industary standard (check out your Cessnas and Pipers) but my stops are on the stick and rudder peddles, not at the control surfaces. The only loads I want my control cables and horns to feel are the flight loads, not me trying to push the rudder peddles through the firewall on a panic stop or slapping the stick to the limits. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:03:10 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: RE: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <41D2024E.000003.01712@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" That is the way it should be. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering -------Original Message------- but my stops are on the stick and rudder peddles, not at the control surfaces. The only loads I want my control cables and horns to feel are the flight loads, not me trying to push the rudder peddles through ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:13:41 -0600 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002d01c4ed43$a2b1a780$7a00a8c0@dad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Larry, Also, there was another loss of elevator accident back in 1993, near Oregon, IL. The up elevator control cable in Gene Darst's KR-1 (on the way home from OSH) was torn from the swage at the control stick end. The cable was also found to be frayed several inches aft of the break where the cable passes through a guide pulley. According to a witness, the plane pitched up and stalled several times, the last time hitting the ground. Gene died from severe trauma and was also thrown from the cockpit onto one of the wings. A post-fire pretty much destroyed the whole plane. I believe he had just fueled up in Rockford a few minutes before. Seems like I remember that Ray (?) Hill once had an elevator control horn problem as well. Ed Ed Janssen mailto:ejanssen@chipsnet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:54 PM Subject: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss > At 05:32 PM 12/28/04 -0500, you wrote: > >What I want to know is, has anyone ever heard of anyone ever loosing > >any of > >the control surfaces on a KR? The only one that I ever heard of was > >when a > >balance weight came off and the aileron fluttered, and that is only hearsay. > >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > The only loss of control surface I'm aware of happened several years > to a gentleman named Ralph Smith. I think he was from Indiana. It > appears he lost elevator control at or near the airport on landing > when the elevator control horn broke. At least that's what I recall > hearing at the time of his accident. He unfortunately didn't survive. > > Investigation of the accident indicated that all control cables were > intact and the broken horn was not a result of the accident. I'm > going from memory here and may not have all the facts correct. I met > Ralph at one of the KR Gatherings in Tennessee back in the early 90's. > He was a friendly individual that I ended up giving a ride to the > motel and back several times. Stories like that caused me to be maybe > a bit over cautious on building. I have a double elevator horn as I > attached a weight to one of them. As far as losing an actual control > surface, I've never heard of that. Losing the cable attach would be > just as serious and put you in the same situation. Loss of control is > loss of control, regardless of the reason why. > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:10:35 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Trim Tube/Cable To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002201c4ed4b$95c43350$1202a8c0@1700xp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dan Heath wrote: > What I want to know is, has anyone ever heard of anyone ever loosing > any of > the control surfaces on a KR? The only one that I ever heard of was > when a balance weight came off and the aileron fluttered, and that is > only hearsay. Jeff Duval, one of the guys who flew a KR into this year's Gathering, experienced aileron flutter on at least two occasions that I know of. Both times he was able to tame it (and I'm just guessing, but he probably pulled up and reduced power). He's a very experienced corporate pilot that knows what to do in such situations. Most of us probably wouldn't be so lucky. Later investigation proved that the ailerons either were totally not balanced, or way underbalanced. He balanced them and has had no problems since then. I guess that doesn't count as a loss of surface, but he came close. His KR is the orange one that showed up at the "East Coast Gathering" in Columbia in 1998. The other one that comes to mind is the all-composite KR look-alike that did a high speed pass at a Gathering in the 80's and self destructed, reportedly because of aileron flutter, and at something like 240 mph, as I recall. That thing didn't qualify as a KR though, in my book... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:30:16 -0500 From: "Kenneth B. Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Trim Tube/Cable To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00f701c4ed4e$55d941b0$8d7ba8c0@oemcomputer> That last one sounds like a planned failure anyway, going 240 with a 200 Vne. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Re: KR> Trim Tube/Cable > Dan Heath wrote: > >> What I want to know is, has anyone ever heard of anyone ever loosing >> any > of >> the control surfaces on a KR? The only one that I ever heard of was >> when >> a >> balance weight came off and the aileron fluttered, and that is only > hearsay. > > Jeff Duval, one of the guys who flew a KR into this year's Gathering, > experienced aileron flutter on at least two occasions that I know of. > Both times he was able to tame it (and I'm just guessing, but he > probably pulled > up and reduced power). He's a very experienced corporate pilot that knows > what to do in such situations. Most of us probably wouldn't be so lucky. > Later investigation proved that the ailerons either were totally not > balanced, or way underbalanced. He balanced them and has had no problems > since then. I guess that doesn't count as a loss of surface, but he came > close. His KR is the orange one that showed up at the "East Coast > Gathering" in Columbia in 1998. > > The other one that comes to mind is the all-composite KR look-alike > that > did > a high speed pass at a Gathering in the 80's and self destructed, > reportedly > because of aileron flutter, and at something like 240 mph, as I recall. > That thing didn't qualify as a KR though, in my book... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:34:06 -0500 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On the rudder pedals it had nothing to do with the stops. I had the rudder neutral and was just braking. My brakes were not that effective and I probably had 40-50 pounds of force on the pedals on a hard stop. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of larry flesner Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:47 PM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> trim cable/ control surface loss >I snapped off a rudder pedal and almost took out some lights at the end >of the runway in a KR once. Turned out to be a bad weld in the 5/8" >pedal tubing. It only had about 50% penetration. It didn't fail in >over 100 hours because the previous owner did not have the hydraulic >brakes with the brakes on te rudder pedals. I am all for going extra >beefy on the rudder horns. >Brian Kraut +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I know it's not industary standard (check out your Cessnas and Pipers) but my stops are on the stick and rudder peddles, not at the control surfaces. The only loads I want my control cables and horns to feel are the flight loads, not me trying to push the rudder peddles through the firewall on a panic stop or slapping the stick to the limits. Larry Flesner _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:58:30 -0800 (PST) From: william walsh Subject: KR> Looking to trade T-Bird 2 for KR? To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041229025830.18713.qmail@web52204.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi net: I have a flying T-bird 2 that I have for sale on barnstormers.com for 10.5k that I would like to trade for a flying kr2 or 2s. If you need something LSA or fat UL this is the one. Empty 325, gross 850lb.Newer fabric and rebuilt 582 rotax w/full enclosure I plc now but 2nd seat can go in now time. Fun flying bird flys 60-65mph tops 85 stalls 27 climb solo 12 to 1400fpm. If this is the flying you like to do this is the plane. Selling for faster plane. Thanks, William. ru4flying@yahoo.com (360)956-0347 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:51:22 +1000 From: "Barry Kruyssen" Subject: KR> First Flight To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <017d01c4ed62$0cd378a0$d000a8c0@technologyonecorp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Well, Yesterday, 28th Dec 2004, I did my first flight in my KR2 at Atherton Air Strip 2400ft. After several false starts it finally all came together. The weather was perfect, nil wind and silky smooth air. The take off was a little jerky but I soon settle down to 90kts for the climb out. I climbed through very broken early morning cloud at 3500ft to 4500ft all my temps were good, CHT 50F below maximum. A few turns straight an level then power off and simulate an approach 2000ft above the strip, round out to stall, felt soooooo good. Now descend and join circuit, the water on the near by lake was like a sheet of glass, not a breath of wind. Lined up perfectly. I read somewhere that your first landing will be your best and they are so right, I greased it on like I'd been doing all my life. Back to the hanger and my wife. I went over all the suspension bolts, engine mounts, prop bolts and anything else that I could check. All was OK so back out to the strip and out for a short circuit, a small bounce on the next landing and a very long roll out, back track and take off again. The next approach was way to hot and at half strip I went to full power went round , this time a much longer approach and I notice about 5kts wind at 60 degrees to the strip. This was a rough old landing with several small bounce. So back to the hanger (and the wife) and another though check over. Half an hour air time in total. Yeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaah and grin that will have to be surgically removed, if at all possible. I have to wash the bottom of the aircraft as I'm operating from a grass strip and the early morning dew covers the bottom with water and grass, etc. This morning, 29th Dec 2004, I woke well before sun up, Doh. Out to strip, pre flight the KR2, perfect weather. A quick circuit with a near perfect landing (not as good as the first one), back track and take off again heading for our ceiling height of 6500ft. Now for some stats. Engine is a 2.2L Jabiru 4 cylinder - total engine time only 1.3 hours on the ground, engine red line at 3300 RPM Prop is a Richard Sweetapple 56 X 56 timber prop Static RPM is 2800 Initially max RPM was 2900, very tight motor. By 2.7 hours max RPM had increased to 3000. Best climb is 980ft/min at 80kts but the CHT's are climbing. Ideal climb is about 750ft/min at 100kts, Oil temp of 100C and CHT temp of 290F Cruise at 115kts no wheel spats or cover strips and still 2 big holes where the retract gear came from. 6 touch and goes and then run low on fuel, all not to bad. Only 40 Litres capacity and I was down to 15L so back to the hanger and another check all over. I cann't get refueled to this afternoon. :-( Next flight is planned for tomorrow (or maybe late this afternoon). Regards Barry Kruyssen Cairns, Australia RAA 19-3873 kr2@BigPond.com http://users.tpg.com.au/barryk/KR2.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 256 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================