From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:55 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Ready For Prime Time (Jack Cooper) 2. Re: Elevator trim (Louis Staalberg) 3. Archives Moderator needs a few missing digests... (John Bouyea) 4. Re: Elevator trim (Brian Kraut) 5. Re: Elevator trim (Steve and Lori McGee) 6. Spreadsheet for Airplane Comparison (Thomas Brock) 7. Re: Elevator trim (Dan Heath) 8. Re: Elevator trim (Dan Heath) 9. Cost of IFR radios? (Thomas Brock) 10. RE: Instrument panel labeling (Serge F. Vidal) 11. Instrument panel labeling (larry flesner) 12. Re: Elevator trim (Orma Robbins) 13. Re: Elevator trim (Linda Warner) 14. Re: Cost of IFR radios? (kevin) 15. RE: Instrument panel labeling (Jeff Waldron) 16. Re: Elevator trim (Richard Collins) 17. Re: Instrument panel labeling 18. Re: Elevator trim (larry severson) 19. RE: Instrument panel labeling (Jeff Waldron) 20. Re: Elevator trim (Brian Kraut) 21. Re: Elevator trim (Orma Robbins) 22. Re: Elevator trim (Jack Cooper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:18:13 -0500 From: "Jack Cooper" To: "KRnet" Subject: RE: KR>Ready For Prime Time Message-ID: <410-220041328211813640@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 Dan Your canopy looks great. You should be proud of those seams. My computer crashed and I had to replace it so I lost my favorites. Can someone please send me the links to the KR net and Corvaircraft net archives. Jack cooper mailto:kr2cooper@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: Dan Heath > To: krnet@mylist.net > Date: 1/27/2004 8:06:04 PM > Subject: KR>Ready For Prime Time > > This is sort of the real post of the week. It just took a little > longer and > 3 1/2 unexpected extra days to work on it, to get it ready. It > features the > canopy in UV Smooth Prime and my version of the exterior canopy door opener > and latch. > > > > http://kr-builder.org/NewCanopy/CanopyPrimeTime/index.html > > > > > > Now back to sanding. > > > > > > > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > > > DanRH@KR-Builder.org > > > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering > > > > See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:26:50 -0700 From: "Louis Staalberg" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <002401c3e5f6$3569af60$0300a8c0@CenterDesk> References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 To: Subject: KR>Archives Moderator needs a few missing digests... Message-ID: <000001c3e61e$721bae90$a800a8c0@dell4600> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 . from Volume 217 Issue 1 through Volume 238 Issue 2. If you can help, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you! John Bouyea KR2 - hanging the engine accessories KR2S - boat hanging from the rafters john_0310@bouyea.net www.bouyea.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:30:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Brian Kraut To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <17224914.1075350660921.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 I removed an electric trim and put in a cable system. I wanted to have some way to control the elevator if the elevator cables failed and I didn't want a servo that could fail and run the trim full up or down without me knowing about it. You can see some pictures on www.engalt.com/kr2.htm and click on flight controls. The cable came from one of the online hobby stores. It comes as a brass stiff wire inside a nylon tube in a 25' length. I can't remember the name of the store, but it is hard to find in more than the 4' lenghts that most hobby stores have. If you want the name let me know and I will find the receipt. As far as taking off with the trim set wrong, I wouldn't worry about it that much. The control forces are so light that I could fly mine very easy with the trim full up or full down and I rarely even bothered to trim it. I always had my hand on the stick since mine would make a steep left turn if I let go of the stick. -----Original Message----- From: Gavin Donohoe Sent: Jan 28, 2004 1:07 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Elevator trim Hi all, I'm beginning to think of what I'll do with my elevator trim! I like the idea of the car electric mirror servo motor, but am wondering how to set up an indicator system so that I can set it to neutral during pre-flight? What did all you others do with yours? Thanks Gavin _______________________________________ to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:13:07 -0600 From: "Steve and Lori McGee" To: "Brian Kraut" , "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <001d01c3e626$94ca2f90$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> References: <17224914.1075350660921.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 I have to question this "control the broken elevator thru using the trim tab" philosophy. Has it been done? If an elevator is hanging out there with no wires attached, will it not just neutralize when you put up or down pressure with the trim tab? Steve McGee Endeavor Wi. USA Building a KR2S widened. lmcgee@maqs.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 01:25:54 -0900 From: Thomas Brock To: KRnet Subject: KR>Spreadsheet for Airplane Comparison Message-ID: <4018DFB1.11F15F81@arctic.net> References: <000f01c3e546$7e0da240$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> <401791C4.00000D.01876@Computer> <000d01c3e5d7$10d17e40$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 Hello Folks, I'm taking your advice and learning how to fly first in a more forgiving airplane before taking on the KR2. I still will want one after I learn to fly though. I do need your help again. I've been looking at so many planes that it is hard to keep up now. It was suggested that I ask the listmembers if someone had a spreadsheet template to use for airplane comparison and purchase costs. It sounds like it would be much easier to to use this tool. Does anyone have one that might be done in Excel, Appleworks, or Clarisworks? If so, please e-mail me a copy. Thanks in advance. Thomas Brock Aniak, Alaska ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:45:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <4018E432.000024.03916@Computer> References: <001d01c3e626$94ca2f90$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 7 RE: will it not just neutralize when you put up or down pressure with the trim tab? =0D =0D I think that is the theory and with hands off the stick, I do believe tha= t it will move up and down with the trim. I would not want to test this the= ory however.=0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:49:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <4018E553.000026.03916@Computer> References: <17224914.1075350660921.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 8 RE: I rarely even bothered to trim it. I always had my hand on the stick= =0D =0D Brian,=0D =0D You make a good point. Other than for a "piece of mind" backup to elevat= or control, why do KR builders spend so much time and money on elevator trim that they most likely will never use. I rarely used mine for the same reason, you always have your hand on the stick.=0D =0D I would really like an aileron trim to offset the tendency to roll to the right or left, as mine did the same thing. =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From bo124rs@hotmail.com Thu Jan 29 03:45:14 2004 Received: from bay13-f30.bay13.hotmail.com ([64.4.31.30] helo=hotmail.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmAbi-000IMI-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:45:14 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:35:43 -0800 Received: from 152.163.252.232 by by13fd.bay13.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:35:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.252.232] X-Originating-Email: [bo124rs@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bo124rs@hotmail.com From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Bcc: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:35:42 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jan 2004 11:35:43.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[076E6180:01C3E65C] Subject: KR>Instrument panel labeling X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I had seen the use of label machines in labeling instrument panels before but got my first taste of it yesterday. I bought this at Office Max (or Office Depot, heck I can't ever remember which one it is we have in town:-) at a whole whoppin $19 yesterday. http://rvflying.tripod.com/label.jpg Supposedly they are UV resistant, waterproof and non-scratchable. Sure enough, I can't scratch the lettering off with my fingernail. I'm going to heat a couple of them up as if under the canopy on a summer day and see what they do. From what I hear, they work just fine. You can get all differnet colors such as: black/clear, red/clear, gold/black..........the list goes on. You can print in five different sizes, nine different styles including vertically and six different underlines or frames. I know numerous people will post other ways to do it that work just fine, so have at it as I don't remember this thread popping up here lately. For $19 this falls right into my line of thinking which is cheapest/easiest, kinda like the $18 cheapest/easiest static system. BTW, this is a Brother P-touch 1180.............piece a cake!! Yes, sure I will have an Eject button in my airplane on the passenger side:-) Another BTW, I'll post a big time, major, put a smile on my face cheapest/easiest tomorrow on Fun Friday...........course I'll probably get a few smacks over the head with baseball bats, but so be it. Like the ol saying goes: When you play with fire you sometimes get burnt but most of the time you end up with a nice steak:-) Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Engine. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:19:31 -0900 From: Thomas Brock To: Cessna Forum List , KRnet Subject: KR>Cost of IFR radios? Message-ID: <4018FA51.5921771E@arctic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 I'm looking at a lot of planes but have noticed the higher cost of aircraft that are IFR certified. I know that the sky is the limit on avionics equipment, but there must be some low end ball park figure on the cost or value of radios to meet the minimum IFR certified requirement. So my question is: about how much (little) would a person have to spend to upgrade a VFR C150, 172, or Cherokee 140 to an IFR certified aircraft? How valuable or how much value does IFR capability add to a small aircraft? Is it usually less expensive to buy an airplane that is already IFR certified OR is it less costly to buy the IFR equipment after you buy your VFR small plane? Thanks much for your replies. Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:55:34 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: <000001c3e65e$ced1dc00$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10 This is also how I did my labelling: Brother P-Touch, 2 sizes of black label ribbon: 6.35mm and 12.7mm, or if you prefer, 1/4" and 1/2". Works great, looks great, sticks hard. Except that in South Africa, the machines entry prices are $ 80 or so, and each ribbon is sold $ 12 or so! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Dana Overall Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 12:36 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Instrument panel labeling I had seen the use of label machines in labeling instrument panels before but got my first taste of it yesterday. I bought this at Office Max (or Office Depot, heck I can't ever remember which one it is we have in town:-) at a whole whoppin $19 yesterday. http://rvflying.tripod.com/label.jpg Supposedly they are UV resistant, waterproof and non-scratchable. Sure enough, I can't scratch the lettering off with my fingernail. I'm going to heat a couple of them up as if under the canopy on a summer day and see what they do. From what I hear, they work just fine. You can get all differnet colors such as: black/clear, red/clear, gold/black..........the list goes on. You can print in five different sizes, nine different styles including vertically and six different underlines or frames. I know numerous people will post other ways to do it that work just fine, so have at it as I don't remember this thread popping up here lately. For $19 this falls right into my line of thinking which is cheapest/easiest, kinda like the $18 cheapest/easiest static system. BTW, this is a Brother P-touch 1180.............piece a cake!! Yes, sure I will have an Eject button in my airplane on the passenger side:-) Another BTW, I'll post a big time, major, put a smile on my face cheapest/easiest tomorrow on Fun Friday...........course I'll probably get a few smacks over the head with baseball bats, but so be it. Like the ol saying goes: When you play with fire you sometimes get burnt but most of the time you end up with a nice steak:-) Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Engine. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:33:57 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040129073357.00837e90@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 >I had seen the use of label machines in labeling instrument panels >before >but got my first taste of it yesterday. I bought this at Office Max (or >Office Depot, heck I can't ever remember which one it is we have in town:-) >at a whole whoppin $19 yesterday. >http://rvflying.tripod.com/label.jpg >Dana Overall ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Wal-Mart sells a similar unit made by a different company but basicly the same features and easy to use. If I can figure it out without the book anyone can do it. I started my panel labeling with the pre-printed set from Wicks for $10 or so and finished it up with the label maker after my wife bought one on sale at Target for $9.99. I think they sell at Wal-Mart in the $16 - $19 range. They have the same selection of (paper or plastic) tape colors. My panel is grey so I used the black print on clear tape. The DAR complimented me on the panel labeling for what that's worth. I've not had any problem with any of the labels trying to peel off. I even have labels near my gas caps that have gotten soaked in fuel and the print is still as clear as when I printed it and the labels are still stuck tight. No tendancy to peel up at the edges or anything. The brand name "Electro-Tag comes to mind but I'm not sure. They have several models to chose from and I've got the cheaper one. As always, your results may vary. :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:15:47 -0500 From: "Orma Robbins" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <001c01c3e672$653f8df0$6e364944@ROBBINS1> References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 I have Elevator trim on my KR and recently increased the size of the tab. After reading recent posts I'll make the a couple of comments. 1. Hands on flying is always first choise. However, there are times when I need to have my hands free, such as folding a map. The pitch balance of My KR is such that depending on the load condition (Fuel, baggage, junk) I can be pitch up, down, or level. The trim tab allows me to make small adjustments and maintain level flight. 2. My rudder trim belcrank came loose in flight and the shaking from this unbalanced mini control surface was so vilently that the tab was damaged and would have seperated from the craft if I had taken any longer then 5 minutes to land (I was in the pattern). Any surface that is not 100 percent balanced will flutter and possibly self destruct if left to hang and trail in the wind. 3. Some aircraft with Stabilizers and not elevators use servo tabs to both position the stab and set trim. (Opinion is next) I don't think that a trim tab operated elevator would save you in the elevator cable failed. In addition if the cable called for in the plans fails, it would be from poor manufacture or lack of inspection. The strength of the cable should far exceed any flying condition. Orma aka AviationMech 19 Years flying the KR-2 Orma L. Robbins Michigan Orma@aviation-mechanics.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:39:22 -0500 (EST) From: jaslkw@webtv.net (Linda Warner) To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <10101-40191B1A-1884@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net> Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-3419-1032 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Precedence: list Message: 13 --WebTV-Mail-3419-1032 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Just a little input on the trim thing here. Years ago when I had a Citabria, it had a fairly fast acting trim tab (slide bar versus a wheel) and I used it to land with several times.... just to see if it could be done. With varying the power (slowly) and using the trim tab, a good landing could be made most of the time, and a survivable one all the time. I opt for a simple, manually controlled trim tab on my KR. Balanced of course. No flames please. John Sickafoose EAA technical counselor Naples, Fl --WebTV-Mail-3419-1032 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3207.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.232) by storefull-3131.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lizard.esosoft.net (lizard.esosoft.net [66.113.66.18]) by smtpin-3207.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 5F83511E0A; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmD6r-000Kf2-02; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:25:33 -0800 Received: from host203.com ([203.194.159.243]) by lizard.esosoft.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmD6p-000KeY-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:25:32 -0800 Received: (qmail 32040 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2004 14:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ROBBINS1) (68.73.54.110) by host203.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2004 14:17:34 -0000 Message-ID: <001c01c3e672$653f8df0$6e364944@ROBBINS1> From: "Orma Robbins" To: "KRnet" References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:15:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive I have Elevator trim on my KR and recently increased the size of the tab. After reading recent posts I'll make the a couple of comments. 1. Hands on flying is always first choise. However, there are times when I need to have my hands free, such as folding a map. The pitch balance of My KR is such that depending on the load condition (Fuel, baggage, junk) I can be pitch up, down, or level. The trim tab allows me to make small adjustments and maintain level flight. 2. My rudder trim belcrank came loose in flight and the shaking from this unbalanced mini control surface was so vilently that the tab was damaged and would have seperated from the craft if I had taken any longer then 5 minutes to land (I was in the pattern). Any surface that is not 100 percent balanced will flutter and possibly self destruct if left to hang and trail in the wind. 3. Some aircraft with Stabilizers and not elevators use servo tabs to both position the stab and set trim. (Opinion is next) I don't think that a trim tab operated elevator would save you in the elevator cable failed. In addition if the cable called for in the plans fails, it would be from poor manufacture or lack of inspection. The strength of the cable should far exceed any flying condition. Orma aka AviationMech 19 Years flying the KR-2 Orma L. Robbins Michigan Orma@aviation-mechanics.com _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html --WebTV-Mail-3419-1032-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:11:53 -0500 From: kevin To: tbsr@arctic.net,KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Cost of IFR radios? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040129101153.007e7b80@pop3.wcoil.com> In-Reply-To: <4018FA51.5921771E@arctic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14 Hi Thomas , Short and simple ! I may get disagreement here but doubt it will be much. It is definatly cheeper to buy a plane already IFR certified !! The kr really dos,nt make a good ifr cert. platform as far as GA goes. IFR certification is much more than just radio's . Kevin 0D7At 03:19 AM 1/29/04 -0900, you wrote: >I'm looking at a lot of planes but have noticed the higher cost of >aircraft that are IFR certified. I know that the sky is the limit on >avionics equipment, but there must be some low end ball park figure on >the cost or value of radios to meet the minimum IFR certified >requirement. So my question is: about how much (little) would a person >have to spend to upgrade a VFR C150, 172, or Cherokee 140 to an IFR >certified aircraft? How valuable or how much value does IFR capability >add to a small aircraft? Is it usually less expensive to buy >an airplane that is already IFR certified OR is it less costly >to buy the IFR equipment after you buy your VFR small plane? > >Thanks much for your replies. Thomas > > > >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:30:56 -0500 From: Jeff Waldron To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 I use a brother p-touch for all my of my labeling needs and I can tell you this. Once they have been in place for about a month, they do not like to come off. I got over zealous labeling a rack that I had a bunch of switches and patch panels in that was made of aluminum. Later decided to change some things and I had a bear of a time getting them to peel off. And if you do like Larry and use the clear tape it will almost look like your panel was printed that way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:47:12 -0500 From: "Richard Collins" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <002601c3e67f$299d8510$6500a8c0@laptop> References: <17224914.1075350660921.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <001d01c3e626$94ca2f90$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 I used to practice this technique in my Taylorcraft when I would get bored and could think of nothing else to do except "what ifs". I found I could use the elevator trim quite successfully to raise and lower the pitch. I also used to doors to substitute for rudder. I often would get the T-craft close enough to the runway that I felt I could have landed and at least walked away from the landing. I never landed using trim and doors. As for aileron trim, it seemed that the added pressure on the side I had opened the door must have created enough positive pressure under the wing to lift it. I never created a situation where I had to grab the aileron control in order to save the plane. Rick Collins, N886 KR "Little Beast" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve and Lori McGee" > I have to question this "control the broken elevator thru using the > trim tab" philosophy. Has it been done? If an elevator is hanging > out there with no wires attached, will it not just neutralize when you > put up or down > pressure with the trim tab? > > Steve McGee > Endeavor Wi. USA > Building a KR2S widened. > lmcgee@maqs.net > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:07:26 EST From: Veeduber@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 17 In a message dated 1/29/04 7:31:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwaldron@GuarantyBankVA.com writes: > I got over zealous labeling a rack that I had a bunch of switches and > patch panels in that was made of aluminum. Later decided to change > some things and I had a bear of a time getting them to peel off. > Try a heat gun. -R.S.Hoover (KA6HZF) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:12:35 -0800 From: larry severson To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040129080624.00bac6d0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <001d01c3e626$94ca2f90$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> References: <17224914.1075350660921.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 18 At 11:13 PM 1/28/2004 -0600, you wrote: >I have to question this "control the broken elevator thru using the >trim tab" philosophy. Has it been done? Of course it has been done - effectively, on other aircraft. >If an elevator is hanging out there >with no wires attached, will it not just neutralize when you put up or >down pressure with the trim tab? No, the trim tab is much smaller than the elevator. But deflecting the trim will deflect the elevator causing the aircraft to do what you wish because the trim actually goes in the opposite direction of the elevator movement. Years ago, flying a multiengine, I trimmed up the plane, and then with throttles only flew a complete 3 hour instrument training session including holding, climbs and descents. I did this because I had read about others who had done the same things previously. The trim system will NOT give you the same level of control that the elevator gives, but it does not leave you with nothing. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:15:53 -0500 From: Jeff Waldron To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 19 In a message R.S. Hoover writes: Try a heat gun. I eventually did. I was just making the point that it takes a lot for them to peel off. J. Waldron jwaldron@guarantybankva.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:22:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Brian Kraut To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <22982759.1075396973714.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 20 If I built another one I would definitely put the trim on. I would also do a small aileron trim tab with the same type of simple control cable so I could fold maps, etc. when it was trimed. That was a real pain to do using my knee to keep the plane from rolling. If I used an electric trim, which I wouldn't do, I wouldn't bother doing a trim indicator. I would just see that the trim tab was around neutral during the preflight and wouldn't worry about it after that. My opinion is that you could very safely take off in a KR with the trim full up or down and you wouldn't even notice that it was out of trim until you got to altitude and tried taking your hand off the stick. I actually did my first landing with the trim full up. I tried trimming the plane and forgot that on mine pushing the trim lever forward was up trim, not down, so I thought that I just didn't have enough down trim and didn't realize that I was trimming in the wrong direction. Again, the stick forces are so light and I couldn't take my hand off the stick to keep it from rolling that I really barely noticed that I had to keep the stick pushed forward a little. I couldn't try flying with elevator trim only since I always need to hold some right aileron and it was impossible to push the stick to the right and let the elevator go where it wanted at the same time. If I did loose elevator control I am fairly confident that I could land with elevator trim and aileron control only, but I would definitely go to a grass strip where I wouldn't have as much of the KR ram the stick forward as soon as the mains touch to keep from bouncing tendancy. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath Sent: Jan 29, 2004 5:49 AM To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim RE: I rarely even bothered to trim it. I always had my hand on the stick Brian, You make a good point. Other than for a "piece of mind" backup to elevator control, why do KR builders spend so much time and money on elevator trim that they most likely will never use. I rarely used mine for the same reason, you always have your hand on the stick. I would really like an aileron trim to offset the tendency to roll to the right or left, as mine did the same thing. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:26:48 -0500 From: "Orma Robbins" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <004401c3e68d$14823280$6e364944@ROBBINS1> References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 21 I do agree that if the elevator is in tact and functioning that the trim tab can control the aircraft. And with the aid of power management climbs and desents are quite possible. Make sure you install an inspection hole so that you can take a good look for cracks. I personall am not aware of any KR control system failures. On a lot of KR like mine you can see the control horn. However, a failure of the elevator is not likely to happen where both cables become unattached at the same time.. The only possible way that the elevator could fail in that manner would be for the control horn of the KR to fail on both sides at the same time. It is more likely that only one side would fail, or another component could fail. If the stick were to fail, the cables or push pull tube would be still attached. If only one cable failed the other cable would be attached on one side and the other would be dragging inside the belly. In that cases the trim tab would have to compensate for what ever was left still attached, possibly the one cable or the push pull tube. I still think that the biggest danger would be from flutter from the inbalance created by the loss of only part of the system. Orma aka AviationMech 19 Years flying the KR-2 Orma L. Robbins Michigan Orma@aviation-mechanics.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:45:59 -0500 From: "Jack Cooper" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <410-220041429194559625@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 22 When taking my Commercial Check Ride in 1969, I was struggling to perform the on-pylon 8s, so the examiner Odell Garrison CFI AI # 5697 (just looked it up in my log book) took the controls of the Cherokee 140 and said "let me show you how easy this is." He then crossed his arms and using only elevator trim and rudder preformed the on-pylon 8s better than I was doing with all controls. Yes the airplane would go out of trim as he rolled from one pylon to the other but the ball would soon center itself as he continued the maneuver. So with balanced controls and power you should be able to control pitch attitude in a relative stable airplane, but I'm not so sure how long you could control a KR. Mr Garrison was 76 years young at the time and was a pleasure to fly with. Another trick he showed me was, he took his unlit cigar from his mouth and laid it on the instrument panel, went into a climb then a -G dive and caught the cigar in hid mouth. I still haven't perfected that maneuver. I have tried it a few times using a pencil instead of a cigar but I usually get it in the eye rather than in the mouth. He taught me a lot in 1.4 hour check ride, and yes I did pass. Jack Cooper mailto:kr2cooper@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: Richard Collins > To: KRnet > Date: 1/29/2004 10:47:20 AM > Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim > > I used to practice this technique in my Taylorcraft when I would get > bored and could think of nothing else to do except "what ifs". I > found I could use the elevator trim quite successfully to raise and > lower the pitch. I also used to doors to substitute for rudder. > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 *************************************