From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 217 Date: 5/31/2005 9:00:22 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. landings (phil brookman) 2. Test, please delete (Serge VIDAL) 3. wheels (larry flesner) 4. Landings/bit long/grab a beer (larry flesner) 5. Re: Landings/bit long/grab a beer (David Mikesell) 6. Landing practice (larry flesner) 7. Re: Landing practice (Randolph R. Clark) 8. Re: Power on approaches (John & Elaine Roffey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:28:11 +0100 From: "phil brookman" Subject: KR> landings To: Message-ID: <02b401c565dc$35b8a130$73a51352@philljl2re6t9i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" my pennys worth ,i think the ideal situation for landings for a lot of = conditions is to land at a speed just above the stall ie the flare = should should just stall it just slightly above the ground . however in many taildraggers they cannot achieve this because the stall = angle of the wing cannot be achieved on the deck because of the = tailwheel usualy being too high ,in that situation you will always land = fast and a lot of the time tailfirst. landing fast carries with it many problems , long stopping distance more = reliance on brakes etc etc=20 tong bingelis covers this in his books . got to get the angle right either by raising the main wheels of lowering = the tailwheel usually phil ------=_NextPart_000_02AF_01C565E4.977ABF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
my pennys worth ,i think the ideal = situation for=20 landings for a lot of conditions is to land at a speed just above the = stall ie=20 the flare should should just stall it just slightly above the ground=20 .
however in many taildraggers they = cannot achieve=20 this because the stall angle of the wing cannot be achieved on the deck = because=20 of the tailwheel usualy being too high ,in that situation you will = always land=20 fast and a lot of the time tailfirst.
 
landing fast carries with it many = problems , long=20 stopping distance more reliance on brakes  etc etc
 
tong bingelis covers this in his books=20 .
 
got to get the angle right either by = raising the=20 main wheels of lowering the tailwheel usually
phil
 
------=_NextPart_000_02AF_01C565E4.977ABF40-- -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 27/05/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:51:19 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: KR> Test, please delete To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Test ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:58:37 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> wheels To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050531095837.007ea870@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I spent the day yesterday installing my 500X5 wheels and all went reasonably well. My only problem, because my brake lines were built to such an exact length and my new lower fittings being slightly different, my brake lines are now 1/2" too short! So, now I order new line and wait to fly the KR until the middle of the week. Those new wheels sure look smaller. I'll be real anxious to see what difference they make at cruise. I also started working on getting my new RV wheel covers ready to install. That could easily be 30 days out or more. Look out Mooney drivers. Kick in some power or get the hell out of the way !!! :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:59:48 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Landings/bit long/grab a beer To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050531095948.007f0830@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As everyone seems to have an opinion on how to takeoff and land a KR, I'll throw in my observations after 142 hours of flying mine. First, on liftoff and touchdown speeds, I could'nt tell you exactly what mine are. I seldom watch the ASI at that moment. On takeoff, after coming in with full power and picking up speed, I raise the tail, maintain directional control, and I can feel when the airplane is ready to fly. A slight back pressure on the stick will bring the mains off and it's flying. If things feel a bit "mushy" , you're a bit slow so keep the nose down. At 5 feet or more above the runway I'll check my ASI and establish climb speed. Several times things have felt a bit "mushy" on liftoff and when I checked the ASI it was indicating 50 mph. I lowered the nose a bit and it qiickly jumps to 60 or 70 so we can see that the ASI is not your best reference at that angle of attack. At 65 / 70+ mph my ASI seems to stablize and becomes an accurate reference. I would not advise anyone to try flying off from a three point attitude except mayby those KR's with the original short retracts. Anyone with fixed gear will be just above the stall and you'd best be very careful. I have longer than standard gear and I've computed my three point attitude to be approx 12 degrees, just a few degrees below the wing stall angle. You won't catch me trying any three point takeoffs! So, now you're flying, how will you land that thing. I think anyone that can fly Jim Faughn's discription of "how to land a KR" will not have any problems. I'll just add a few observations of my own. First, the KR is a slick little bird and my opinion on why we don't see more of them flying is that the pilots are not comfortable with the approach and landing phase of flight. The quickest and easiest solution, I think, is to just add drag to the airframe during the approach and landing. It makes the KR an entirely different airplane on landings when you do. When I land my KR without the speedbrake, I'm approaching a bit nose high, it's hard to maintain a stable airspeed, and it feels like I'm trying to balance on a beachball or something. With my speed brake full down (near 90 degrees) , I add two feet of flat plate area to the KR and it it becomes a different airplane. At idle power, my rate of decent will increase 300 to 500 fpm. This requires me to carry a bit of power (about 1300 rpm on my 0-200), gives me over-the-nose visibility all the way into the flare, and greatly helps in stabilizing my airspeed, An honest 70 mph over the numbers is all the airspeed you need when flying solo. I try to have my airspeed nailed when I start my flare and I never look at it again during the landing. You need to have you eyes out the window at that point and flying the airplane. If you flare a bit high, let the airplane settle and begin the flare again as you get close to the runway. Don't start "hunting" for the runway by moving the stick back and forth. That's a good way to get yourself in trouble. Hold it off the runway as long as you can but personally, I'm not comfortable taking mine to a full three point attitude. When the mains touch you need a slight forward movement on the stick to hold it on. The primary reason for this, other than you may have dropped it in from high enough above the runway and you're getting springback from the gear, is that when the mains contact the ground and you begin transfering weight from the wing to the gear, the balance point of the airplane moves forward and the tail will start to settle. This is for a tailwheel configuration, of course, and a tri-gear is just the opposite. In other than a full stall, three point landing, the wing could start to generate enough lift to put you back in the air. On my KR, once I can no longer hold the tail up with forward stick, I'm below flying speed and I can firmly plant the tail and begin braking. As to the wing low or crab approach in crosswinds, I prefer the crab on final and switch to the wing down just before the flare. I think the crab is a more comfortable approach, especially if you have passangers, and it gives me an idea how much wing-down I'll need in the flare. The effect of a crosswind always seems to be less in ground effect but don't ignore it. Gust will give you more trouble as you are constantly changing control inputs. To fly a KR, or any airplane for that matter, I think (I know) you have to have a clear mental picture of each phase of flight, especially the takeoff and landing, to be successful. Set in the KR and make motor noises until you have the process planted in your head and it becomes second nature. You can't be thinking about what to do next in actual flight. As always, your results may vary !!! :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:11:11 -0700 From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: KR> Landings/bit long/grab a beer To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000501c565f2$fc575500$6801a8c0@DavidMikesell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Very well put Larry David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-609-8774 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:59 AM Subject: KR> Landings/bit long/grab a beer > > > As everyone seems to have an opinion on how to takeoff and land a KR, > I'll throw in my observations after 142 hours of flying mine. > > First, on liftoff and touchdown speeds, I could'nt tell you exactly > what mine are. I seldom watch the ASI at that moment. On takeoff, > after coming in with full power and picking up speed, I raise the > tail, maintain directional control, and I can feel when the airplane > is ready to fly. A slight back pressure on the stick will bring the > mains off and it's flying. If things feel a bit "mushy" , you're a > bit slow so keep the nose down. At 5 feet or more above the runway > I'll check my ASI and establish climb speed. Several times things have > felt a bit "mushy" on liftoff and when I checked the ASI it was > indicating 50 mph. I lowered the nose a bit and it qiickly jumps to 60 > or 70 so we can see that the ASI is not your best reference at that > angle of attack. At 65 / 70+ mph my ASI seems to stablize and becomes > an accurate reference. I would not advise anyone to try flying off > from a three point attitude except mayby those KR's with the original > short retracts. Anyone with fixed gear will be just above the stall > and you'd best be very careful. I have longer than standard gear and > I've computed my three point attitude to be approx 12 degrees, just a > few degrees below the wing stall angle. You won't catch me trying > any three point takeoffs! > > So, now you're flying, how will you land that thing. I think anyone > that can fly Jim Faughn's discription of "how to land a KR" will not > have any problems. I'll just add a few observations of my own. > > First, the KR is a slick little bird and my opinion on why we don't > see more of them flying is that the pilots are not comfortable with > the approach and landing phase of flight. The quickest and easiest > solution, I think, is to just add drag to the airframe during the > approach and landing. It makes the KR an entirely different airplane > on landings when you do. > > When I land my KR without the speedbrake, I'm approaching a bit nose > high, it's hard to maintain a stable airspeed, and it feels like I'm > trying to balance on a beachball or something. With my speed brake > full down (near 90 degrees) , I add two feet of flat plate area to the > KR and it it becomes a different airplane. At idle power, my rate of > decent will increase 300 to 500 fpm. This requires me to carry a bit > of power (about 1300 rpm on my 0-200), gives me over-the-nose > visibility all the way into the flare, and greatly helps in > stabilizing my airspeed, > > An honest 70 mph over the numbers is all the airspeed you need when > flying solo. I try to have my airspeed nailed when I start my flare > and I never look at it again during the landing. You need to have you > eyes out the window at that point and flying the airplane. If you > flare a bit high, let the airplane settle and begin the flare again as > you get close to the runway. Don't start "hunting" for the runway by > moving the stick back and forth. That's a good way to get yourself in > trouble. Hold it off the runway as long as you can but personally, > I'm not comfortable taking mine to a full three point attitude. > > When the mains touch you need a slight forward movement on the stick > to hold it on. The primary reason for this, other than you may have > dropped it in from high enough above the runway and you're getting > springback from the gear, is that when the mains contact the ground > and you begin transfering weight from the wing to the gear, the > balance point of the airplane moves forward and the tail will start to > settle. This is for a tailwheel configuration, of course, and a > tri-gear is just the opposite. In other than a full stall, three point > landing, the wing could start to generate enough lift to put you back > in the air. On my KR, once I can no longer hold the tail up with > forward stick, I'm below flying speed and I can firmly plant the tail > and begin braking. > > As to the wing low or crab approach in crosswinds, I prefer the crab > on final and switch to the wing down just before the flare. I think > the crab is a more comfortable approach, especially if you have > passangers, and it gives me an idea how much wing-down I'll need in > the flare. The effect of a crosswind always seems to be less in > ground effect but don't ignore it. Gust will give you more trouble as > you are constantly changing control inputs. > > To fly a KR, or any airplane for that matter, I think (I know) you > have to have a clear mental picture of each phase of flight, > especially the takeoff and landing, to be successful. Set in the KR > and make motor noises until you have the process planted in your head > and it becomes second nature. You can't be thinking about what to do > next in actual flight. > > As always, your results may vary !!! :-) > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:57:56 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Landing practice To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050531105756.007b97d0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One more e-mail, slightly long, and then I need to get off the computer and get something done, even if it's wrong. :-) I suggested to Mark Langford that he practice a few approaches ,at altitude, to get a feel for the landing phase. I think it's critical, especially on the first flight, to do some glides at the indicated approach speeds you intend to use for landing to get the feel of how the airplane is going to handle. Establish the glide speed and do some gentle turns and see how the airplane feels and responds. If it feels "mushy" you're probably a bit slow and / or the ASI may be off a bit. If it feels the same as it did in low cruise, you're probably a bit fast. To get a feel for the landing flare, establish your approach speed at altitude. As the "big hand" on the altimeter approachs a whole number, come back on the stick and attempt to nail and hold the needle on an exact number. This is basically the same feel you will have during an actual landing. Keep the altimeter hand "nailed" until just above a stall. With enough altitude you can lower the nose, get back to glide speed, and repeat the process several times. Personally, I wouldn't recommend doing any full stalls until at least the second or third flight when you start to get more comfortable with the airplane. While practicing, don't fixate on the altimeter but see what the picture out the window looks like with reference to the nose on the horizion, etc., and reference the altimeter to see how you're doing on pitch. Did you "zoom" up, lose altitude, or is the needle holding steady where you wanted it? If you have a problem on the first flight with the ASI as Mark did, don't fixate on the problem and let it overwhelm your brain. The airplane will fly just fine without it. Your landing approach should look similar to all the landings you've made in C150's, 172's, and Cherokees. If it feels like the airplane is ready to fall out of the air, pick the speed up a bit. If the world is flashing by at "Mooney" speed, slow it down. With enough runway, you have considerable margin for error, on the high side especially, but no need to over-do it. It will only give you more time to screw up during the flare. Getting too slow, on the other hand, is a one-way street to the undertaker. Revert back to what the hundreds of other landings you've made looked and felt like. The KR is not an airplane to fear but to be respected. Make sure you're comfortable flying other airplanes before your first flight. You don't need to be an airshow level pilot to fly a taildragger. I had approx 900 hours total time but only 13 hours total tailwheel time over thirty years when I started to taxi test my KR. The KR must be flown 100 percent of the time, unlike a Cessna , where you can just be along for the ride 50 percent of the time and get away with it. The extra 50 percent effort, however, translates into 50 percent more fun, also !!! YEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:54:42 -0500 From: "Randolph R. Clark" Subject: Re: KR> Landing practice To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000c01c5661a$96c9af30$c6aef53f@clarks> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original One thing I did that helps me for control and landings. I put a U channel aluminum center console between myself and passenger that allows the heel of my hand to rest while my fingers do the "walking" so to speak. It keeps me from over controlling and I can pull back on the stick very gradual for my landings. When I am by myself, I like to wheel land. I don't seem to bounce. When I have a passenger, I like to 3 point better. My center of gravity makes it at the slower speed so easy to bounce with a passenger. Once the tail hits, the mains hit and stay when 3 point landing. I always come in a little hot and just hold off until down. I like the control when just a little fast. Once in ground effect control seems even better. Randy Clark, Salina, Ks ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:57 AM Subject: KR> Landing practice > > > One more e-mail, slightly long, and then I need to get off the > computer and get something done, even if it's wrong. :-) > > I suggested to Mark Langford that he practice a few approaches ,at > altitude, to get a feel for the landing phase. > > I think it's critical, especially on the first flight, to do some > glides at the indicated approach speeds you intend to use for landing > to get the feel of how the airplane is going to handle. Establish the > glide speed and do some gentle turns and see how the airplane feels > and responds. If it feels "mushy" you're probably a bit slow and / or > the ASI may be off a bit. If it feels the same as it did in low > cruise, you're probably a bit fast. > > To get a feel for the landing flare, establish your approach speed at > altitude. As the "big hand" on the altimeter approachs a whole > number, come back on the stick and attempt to nail and hold the needle > on an exact number. This is basically the same feel you will have > during an actual landing. Keep the altimeter hand "nailed" until just > above a stall. With enough altitude you can lower the nose, get back > to glide speed, and repeat the process several times. Personally, I > wouldn't recommend doing any full stalls until at least the second or > third flight when you start to get more comfortable with the airplane. > While practicing, don't fixate on the altimeter but see what the > picture out the window looks like with reference to the nose on the > horizion, etc., and reference the altimeter to see how you're doing on > pitch. Did you "zoom" up, lose altitude, or is the needle holding > steady where you wanted it? > > If you have a problem on the first flight with the ASI as Mark did, > don't fixate on the problem and let it overwhelm your brain. The > airplane will fly just fine without it. Your landing approach should > look similar to all the landings you've made in C150's, 172's, and > Cherokees. If it feels like the airplane is ready to fall out of the > air, pick the speed up a bit. If the world is flashing by at "Mooney" > speed, slow it down. With enough runway, you have considerable margin > for error, on the high side especially, but no need to over-do it. It > will only give you more time to screw up during the flare. Getting > too slow, on the other hand, is a one-way street to the undertaker. > Revert back to what the hundreds of other landings you've made looked > and felt like. > > The KR is not an airplane to fear but to be respected. Make sure > you're comfortable flying other airplanes before your first flight. > You don't need to be an airshow level pilot to fly a taildragger. I > had approx 900 hours total time but only 13 hours total tailwheel time > over thirty years when I started to taxi test my KR. The KR must be > flown 100 percent of the time, unlike a Cessna , where you can just be > along for the ride 50 percent of the time and get away with it. The > extra 50 percent effort, however, translates into 50 percent more > fun, also !!! > > YEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!! > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:51:03 -0400 From: "John & Elaine Roffey" Subject: Re: KR> Power on approaches To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000601c56657$0d73adc0$1599e504@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: KR> Power on approaches > Just a side note about approaches. > When I was first being taught to fly back in 1979 and 1980 (wow that > makes me feel old!) > > Colin > KSFB Like Colin says, I was taught to fly in 1976 and never really mastered the Cessna 150/172 crosswind landings until I got my Inst.Rating in my PA-28 Arrow much later. The key to the landing was the Stabilized Approach on the ILS. Having the power set to the 90kt configuration for the approach and the decent rate and the speed on target made my landings very consistent. I now use the numbers and configuration for all my landings in then 182 I fly and you just can't argue with the results, not always a squeeker, but always predicable. With this in mind, I'm sure that what folks here are saying in this thread, is to set up a power on stabalized constant decent rate approach and the landing, with consideration for the crosswind, will be predicable even in the KR. John Roffey KR2S Someday Fort Gratiot, MI ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 217 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================