From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 383 Date: 9/28/2005 7:02:56 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Control tube test (Jack Cooper) 2. Fw: aileron horn (Lee Van Dyke) 3. intake heat (Colin Rainey) 4. R?f. : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice (Serge VIDAL) 5. Re: intake heat (Scott William) 6. Re: Control tube test (Scott William) 7. Re: Re: KR> intake heat (Steven Phillabaum) 8. Re: Re: KR> intake heat (Scott William) 9. Re: Re: KR> intake heat (Scott William) 10. More carb ice? (L. D. Mueller) 11. Re: Control tube test (Jeff Scott) 12. R?f. : Re: Re: KR> intake heat (Serge VIDAL) 13. Re: Control tube test (Scott William) 14. Re: intake heat (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 15. Carb Heat/Carb ice (larry flesner) 16. Re: Control tube test (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 17. Re: Re: KR> intake heat (Jeff Scott) 18. Turnbuckles (Serge VIDAL) 19. R?f. : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice (Serge VIDAL) 20. Re: More carb ice? (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 00:02:26 -0400 From: "Jack Cooper" Subject: KR> Control tube test To: "KR builders and pilots" Message-ID: <410-2200593284226312@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jim Mullen and others have questioned my elevator control tube system especially the bent tube from the stick to the bell crank just behind the aft spar. To satisfy my and others curiosity I conducted a test of the system tonight. see my test at http://jackandsandycooper.com/controltest.html . Your comments are welcomed. Jack Cooper kr2cooper@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:07:22 -0700 From: "Lee Van Dyke" Subject: KR> Fw: aileron horn To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00bb01c5c3e2$20b47610$6701a8c0@SNAKEBITE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry Net, but somebody sent me an aileron horn, and I lost your address. Could you please E-mail me off line we need to talk. WHO SENT THE HORN?? Lee Van Dyke Mesa AZ Lee@vandyke5.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 00:30:52 -0400 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> intake heat To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-22005932843052171@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Scott and netters The reason that you pilots are led to believe that carb heat or intake heat are not required on fuel injected applications is because they falsely believe that since there is not venturi and that the cooling fuel is introduced near the intake valve instead of the throttle plate that there is no danger of icing in the intake. As Dan pointed out, that is wrong. The air coming into the intake manifold is still being accelerated through the opening, and we spend most of our time at part throttle, with the plate creating a restriction that also causes some acceleration, and an opportunity for icing when conditions are right. A quick look in any certified aircraft cockpit will reveal an "alternate air" control that is the same as carb heat, heated air applied at the throttle plate area. Some aircraft seldom use it because of the way that the air enters the intake, ie: air is drawn in from the head area etc.... It would be foolish to not have SOME kind of engine heat to apply to the intake if needed... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:28:53 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Scott, My KR2 formerly ZS-WEC, flew happily for 400 hours without a carb heat. I was surprised and somewhat worried when I bought the plane. Here are the answers I got from the previous owner and his fellow homebuilders in Port Elisabeth, South Africa: - The carb is a Zenith / Stromberg, and this carb is known not to freeze easily. - Since it is mounted inside the cowl and gets its air from inside the cowl too (no carb inlet), it is pretty safe as it is. Living in hot and sunny South Africa, where carb icing altogether is a pretty rare occurrence, I felt happy with the answer, and I forgot about it.. Since then, I have upgraded the engine to a VW 2.4 instead of a 2.0 liter, and the carb battles to feed these big cylinders, so I need all the cool air I can, and therefore, I will build an inlet. Also, I now live in France, where carb freezing is not so rare. So, what about carb heat? Well, I have decided that I will simply buld a flap that closes the inlet at will. The carb will then be fed from a hot area within the cowling. Should be enough to take care of impact ice. For the other icing causes, I will simply hope for the best. Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France Scott William Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 2005-09-27 20:50 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-09-27 20:50 Pour : KRnet cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice I've noticed wuite a few builders who have not installed any kind of carb heat setup on thier birds. Do these birds not have problems with that or are you running fuel injection and I'm not seeing it? I assume that carb ice is not a problem on injected birds since there is no venturi? Scott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:04:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: KR> intake heat To: brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net, KRnet Message-ID: <20050928120442.83508.qmail@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- Colin Rainey wrote: > A quick look > in any certified aircraft cockpit will reveal an > "alternate air" control that is the same as carb > heat, heated air applied at the throttle plate area. Ok, I missed this. I was looking in a new Cessna that is fuel injected, and I was looking for "carb heat", then I realized it was injected and assumed that it didn't need it. So here I am, looking at the panel, and I see a red nob that says, "Alt Static Air Pull On". Is that what you are referring to? So, would that then pull intake air from inside the cowling instead of the outside? So, here's my point: I am thinking about developing a home made injection system for my motor. The throttle bodies will be located on the top of the engine. My air would be pulled from an air duct in the cowling, and since most of my flying would be in Florida, and it does get very humid sometime on cold days, icing would be a concern, I would think. SO, that being said, would I need to have carb heat pulled from the manifold, or would "alt static air" from inside the cowling suffice? Your opinion? Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: KR> Control tube test To: kr2cooper@earthlink.net, KRnet Message-ID: <20050928121107.99003.qmail@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ok, here's just a dumb thought, so don't laugh at me too hard, ok? :-) Applying a force at the stick to measure how much bend you get is ok, but I would think you would want to measure how much force it took for catastrophic failure, where ever that point may be. Also, what about vibration and it's long term affect on a tube as opposed to a cable? Also, what about the integrity of the connection on the elevator end should you experience sudden pressure from turbulence? Ok, laugh now.....but when it comes to safety, I like to question everything, including whether or not you should wear boxers of briefs while flying. Scott --- Jack Cooper wrote: > Jim Mullen and others have questioned my elevator > control tube system especially the bent tube from > the stick to the bell crank just behind the aft > spar. To satisfy my and others curiosity I conducted > a test of the system tonight. see my test at > http://jackandsandycooper.com/controltest.html . Your comments are > welcomed. > > > Jack Cooper > kr2cooper@earthlink.net _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 8:19:53 -0400 From: Steven Phillabaum Subject: Re: Re: KR> intake heat To: KRnet Message-ID: <48vi84$1akkpom@mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > So here I am, looking at the panel, and I see a red > nob that says, "Alt Static Air Pull On". Is that what > you are referring to? > > So, would that then pull intake air from inside the > cowling instead of the outside? > Scott Alt Static air is for your pitot static system. If your static ports get blocked. Some use heated air from the cowling as carb heat and or intake manifold heat. I agree with Colin that SOMETHING needs to be there for heat to the intake. Steven Phillabaum KR2S; 5048; corvair; Auburn, Alabama ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:06:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: Re: KR> intake heat To: KRnet Message-ID: <20050928130602.17136.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- Steven Phillabaum wrote: > > Scott Alt Static air is for your pitot static > system. If your static ports get blocked. Ok...so where is the intake heat on this new Cessna? There has to be something, and I don't see it. Anybody have any ideas to solve my blindness? :-) > > Some use heated air from the cowling as carb heat > and or intake manifold heat. I agree with Colin > that SOMETHING needs to be there for heat to the > intake. But do ya think that cowling air is warm enough to melt the ice as quickly as it should be? Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:15:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: Re: KR> intake heat To: KRnet Message-ID: <20050928131517.14059.qmail@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 CARB ICE VERSUS CARBURETOR HEAT The REAL Cause of Many Unexplained Accidents? A topic we tend to dismiss in hot weather is carburetor icing. Humid air is plentiful in the summer, and temperatures inside the carburetor can drop 30 to 40 degrees. Summer or early fall are not the times to forget "carb ice." No matter how many hours we have logged, that "carb ice" gremlin can sneak up and catch us by surprise. Engine runup on the ground is by far a better place to discover it than during flight. But many times it is during flight that carb ice rears its ugly head. And when it happens it may have progressed to the point where the only way is down; that is, an immediate landing with little or no available engine power. But first, let's review this ever-present problem, look at means of detection, and share some timely methods for staying ahead of engine icing problems. What is Carb Ice and What Causes it? There is always some degree of moisture (humidity) in the air that flows into and through an aircraft engine for every unit of fuel burned. A carburetor provides the explosive air/fuel mixture to each cylinder in the engine, where your power is generated. As air is drawn into the small throat of a carburetor, the venturi effect accelerates the air and cools it. It cools even further when mixed with vaporized fuel. When this moist air reaches the freezing level of 32°F, the ice particles that begin to form deposit themselves on the throttle plate. The carburetor can then become choked up by this ice to the point that the engine receives less air than is required for full power. The once-explosive air/fuel mixture becomes so rich from excess fuel that the engine ceases to fire. What Conditions are Conducive to Carb Icing? Basically: Whenever the cooling effect of the air flowing through the carburetor is sufficient to bring the temperature of the carburetor throat down to 32¼F or colder AND there is sufficient moisture in the air. Specifically: If the outside air temperature (OAT) is between about 20¼F and 30¼F with visible moisture or high humidity If the relative humidity of the outside air is high, even in a cloudless sky, with an OAT as low at 15¼F and as high as 100¼F In the spring and fall, especially just after a rain In other words, carbureted engines are susceptible to icing almost anytime. Are All Internal Combustion Engines Prone to Carb Ice? No. In pressure carburetors, fuel is admitted at a point past the throttle plate and downstream from the air inlet throat. It is well on its way to the hot engine before ice can form. In fuel- injected engines, the air/fuel mixture sprayed into the engine cylinders is metered into the hot cylinder at temperatures near that of a volcano. So, there is no potential for carb ice on either of these types. Our concern is the mixture of evaporating fuel and moist air before it gets near the heat of the running engine, and this only occurs in the float-type carburetors found on most light aircraft. Detecting Carb Ice There are two opportunities to detect the subtle indication of developing carb ice. The subtlety is a gradual, small drop in RPM on a fixed-pitch prop aircraft, even though the pilot did not retard the throttle. On a constant-speed prop aircraft, carb ice is manifested by a gradual, small drop in manifold pressure (MP) while in flight. If detected early and dealt with correctly you can easily prevent an untimely engine stoppage. During Pre-flight Engine Run-up On the ground during engine run-up, ice is easy to identify positively and remove. On a Cessna, for example, at 1,700 rpm the carburetor heat control is pulled out fully to the hottest position. Because air entering the carburetor after application of carb heat is warm (from the engine compartment) and less dense, you will notice an rpm decrease of 100 to 300 rpm, and the rpm should remain low until the carburetor heat control is pushed all the way back in. However, if the 100 to 200 rpm decrease is noted but slowly begins to increase so that when the carb heat control is pushed back in the rpm reads more than the original 1,700 rpm, you had carb ice. If it happened on the ground, it can happen again during takeoff. While lined up on the centerline, just before takeoff, I heartily recommend another carburetor heat check. In Flight At Constant Cruise Throttle Setting An often asked student question during their ground school training is, "If the engine fails in flight because of carb ice, why not just apply carburetor heat to melt the ice?" That is a reasonable question, but let's look at why that action is more than likely too late to help. Carburetor heat is obtained essentially from within the engine compartment (rather than directly from the intake air filter on the front of the aircraft). If the engine has cooled sufficiently because of an excessively rich air/fuel mixture, there may not be sufficient hot air in the engine compartment to melt the accumulation of carb ice even with the carb heat control to full "hot." That is the point when the engine will cease developing enough power to keep your airborne. It is of the utmost importance to keep a sharp eye on engine performance at all times. At the slightest hint of deteriorating power (from decreasing rpm or MP) use carburetor heat for at east eight to 10 seconds or for however long the aircraft's manual recommends. The Explanation Many accidents and off-airport landings may have occurred because unsuspecting pilots-having noted decreasing engine power during cruise--pulled on carburetor heat. Their engine immediately began running very roughly and/or backfiring. In response to such noise, they removed carburetor heat and continued on their way. Continued, that is, until the engine continued to slow and eventually quit. What happened? When the pilot applied carburetor heat at the first sign of decreasing power, the warm air from the engine compartment did just what it was supposed to do. It melted the ice from the carburetor throat and throttle plate. Where did the melted ice (now water) go? Right into the engine that wants to burn gasoline, not water; hence, a momentarily rough and perhaps backfiring engine. If carburetor heat had been kept on long, the hot engine and warm carburetor heat air would have kept the carburetor ice-free. How to Fly Safely in Carb Ice Conditions When icing conditions exist, apply carburetor heat often at your cruise throttle setting. Never use partial carburetor heat unless the aircraft is equipped with a carburetor temperature gauge, ice light, or similar instrumentation. Partial heat can possibly make matters worse, unless you know exact carburetor temperatures. Remember, full heat or nothing. When below the green band on the rpm or MP gauge, apply carburetor heat. It is good practice to use it on any descent where you have reduced power. Use that carburetor heat control on any aircraft at reduced power settings and especially for landing. In conditions conducive to icing or if ice was noted during engine run-up, perform another carburetor heat check immediately before takeoff. DO NOT leave carburetor heat on for the actual takeoff. Check your POH or aircraft manual for general guidance. To be totally knowledgeable, I recommend that everyone read FAA Advisory Circular 20-113 concerning precautions and procedures for preventing induction and fuel system icing. Final Reminder Carburetor heat will keep carb ice from forming if applied early enough, often enough, and long enough. AC 20-113, Pilot Precautions and Procedures to be taken in Preventing Aircraft Reciprocating Engine Induction System and Fuel System Icing Problems, is free from U.S. Department of Transportation, Subsequent Distribution Office, Ardmore East Business Center, 3341 Q 75th Avenue, Landover, MD 20785. by Pete Humphrey Mr. Humphrey is from Hagerstown, MD and is an Aviation Safety Counselor for the FAA's Baltimore Flight Standards District Office. This article originally appeared in the Baltimore FSDO's Aviation Safety Program newsletter, Mid-Atlantic Flight Safety Monitor. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:24:55 -0500 From: "L. D. Mueller" Subject: KR> More carb ice? To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003701c5c430$05769920$6500a8c0@LDM0D330DFBAF> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here's an article from flycorvair's site on carb ice. More good reading. http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html L. D. Mueller ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:27:03 GMT From: "Jeff Scott" Subject: Re: KR> Control tube test To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050928.062805.14562.619779@webmail24.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain Somehow I doubt that Jack feels the need to destroy his control system to satisfy the curiosity. If you ever need anywhere close to 50# of force on the stick of a KR, you're already toast. FWIW, my KR has a much lighter control rod assembly than Jacks and has 525 hours of vibration testing, moderate to heavy turbulence, hot passes, and bad landings. In the last month I have had every single piece of the control system out on the bench for adjustments and a close inspection. I can tell you that you are beating a dead horse here. Jeff Scott N1213W -- Scott William wrote: Ok, here's just a dumb thought, so don't laugh at me too hard, ok? :-) Applying a force at the stick to measure how much bend you get is ok, but I would think you would want to measure how much force it took for catastrophic failure, where ever that point may be. Also, what about vibration and it's long term affect on a tube as opposed to a cable? Also, what about the integrity of the connection on the elevator end should you experience sudden pressure from turbulence? Ok, laugh now.....but when it comes to safety, I like to question everything, including whether or not you should wear boxers of briefs while flying. Scott --- Jack Cooper wrote: > Jim Mullen and others have questioned my elevator > control tube system especially the bent tube from > the stick to the bell crank just behind the aft > spar. To satisfy my and others curiosity I conducted > a test of the system tonight. see my test at > http://jackandsandycooper.com/controltest.html . > Your comments are welcomed. > > > Jack Cooper > kr2cooper@earthlink.net > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:30:38 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : Re: Re: KR> intake heat To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Makes me feel better. I KNEW I had never seen any kind of "carb heat" equivalent on the handful of fuel-injected aircraft I have flown. Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:44:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: KR> Control tube test To: KRnet Message-ID: <20050928134401.22341.qmail@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ok...I'll stop beating. But input like yours is exactly what I look for...guys with experience. Jack designs control tube assemblies.... And it looks like you have tested one. Good information gentlemen. Scott --- Jeff Scott wrote: > Somehow I doubt that Jack feels the need to destroy > his control system to satisfy the curiosity. If you > ever need anywhere close to 50# of force on the > stick of a KR, you're already toast. FWIW, my KR > has a much lighter control rod assembly than Jacks > and has 525 hours of vibration testing, moderate to > heavy turbulence, hot passes, and bad landings. In > the last month I have had every single piece of the > control system out on the bench for adjustments and > a close inspection. I can tell you that you are > beating a dead horse here. > > Jeff Scott > N1213W > > > -- Scott William wrote: > Ok, here's just a dumb thought, so don't laugh at me > too hard, ok? :-) > > Applying a force at the stick to measure how much > bend > you get is ok, but I would think you would want to > measure how much force it took for catastrophic > failure, where ever that point may be. > > Also, what about vibration and it's long term affect > on a tube as opposed to a cable? > > Also, what about the integrity of the connection on > the elevator end should you experience sudden > pressure > from turbulence? > > > Ok, laugh now.....but when it comes to safety, I > like > to question everything, including whether or not you > should wear boxers of briefs while flying. > > > Scott > > --- Jack Cooper wrote: > > > Jim Mullen and others have questioned my elevator > > control tube system especially the bent tube from > > the stick to the bell crank just behind the aft > > spar. To satisfy my and others curiosity I > conducted > > a test of the system tonight. see my test at > > http://jackandsandycooper.com/controltest.html . > > Your comments are welcomed. > > > > > > Jack Cooper > > kr2cooper@earthlink.net > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at > > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:45:05 -0400 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY Subject: Re: KR> intake heat To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050928.094746.3736.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ALTERNATE AIR is referring to a different STATIC air source, Virg On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Scott William writes: > > > --- Colin Rainey > wrote: > > > A quick look > > in any certified aircraft cockpit will reveal an > > "alternate air" control that is the same as carb > > heat, heated air applied at the throttle plate area. > > Ok, I missed this. I was looking in a new Cessna that > is fuel injected, and I was looking for "carb heat", > then I realized it was injected and assumed that it > didn't need it. > > So here I am, looking at the panel, and I see a red > nob that says, "Alt Static Air Pull On". Is that what > you are referring to? > > So, would that then pull intake air from inside the > cowling instead of the outside? > > So, here's my point: I am thinking about developing a > home made injection system for my motor. The throttle > bodies will be located on the top of the engine. My > air would be pulled from an air duct in the cowling, > and since most of my flying would be in Florida, and > it does get very humid sometime on cold days, icing > would be a concern, I would think. SO, that being > said, would I need to have carb heat pulled from the > manifold, or would "alt static air" from inside the > cowling suffice? Your opinion? > > > Scott > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:47:46 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050928084746.0084c920@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Living in hot and sunny South Africa, where carb icing altogether is a >pretty rare occurrence, I felt happy with the answer, and I forgot about >it.. >Serge Vidal +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lycombing suggest the range of 20 to 90 degrees F for the possibility of carb icing. You could be getting a temp drop through the carb of 40+ degrees. Also mentioned was the fact that certified engines must be capable of raising the carb intake temp by 90 degrees F at 75% power. Your best chance for ice to form is on a warm (60 to 90 degree F) and humid day. Your carb may not have a venturi but the fuel vaporizing will cause a big temp drop and could contribute to carb ice. Do a google search for carb ice. Lots of info there. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:47:27 -0400 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY Subject: Re: KR> Control tube test To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050928.094746.3736.1.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Ok, laugh now.....but when it comes to safety, I like > to question everything, including whether or not you > should wear boxers of briefs while flying. > > > Scott DEPENDS, Virg ( so it ain't Friday ) > > > kr2cooper@earthlink.net > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at > > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:48:24 GMT From: "Jeff Scott" Subject: Re: Re: KR> intake heat To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050928.064918.14562.620120@webmail24.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain I know people use heated air from within the cowling in place of carb heat and some get away with it. While it is warmer than outside air, it is insufficient and not nearly as warm as air drawn off from an exhaust manifold. Marty Roberts had his O-200 powered KR configured to pull warm air off the oil tank from inside the cowling. I've seen him dead stick it in after the engine quit due to carb ice. Yeah, 99.9% of the time you don't need carb heat. It's that .1% of the time that the engine quits that makes things exciting. As for the Zenith carb not icing... That's a myth. The Zenith I had on my Avid Flyer would ice up just like any other carb. Alternate air source on a fuel injected engine is typically there for the case of impact icing over the outside of the air intake. It takes the mildly warmed air from inside the cowl as there will be no impact icing there to block the intake. Because of the heat transfer within the aluminum cylinder head, the fuel injection system will not ice at that point. As Colin points out, accelerated air at the throttle plate can cause intake icing under extremely adverse conditions, but without the fuel there to supercool the intake, the mildly warmed air from the alternate air source is usually sufficient to address it. And as was also pointed out, not all planes with injected engines have an alternate air source. To summarize, use exhaust manifold heated air for a carburetor. Cowling air can be used as an alternate source for a fuel injected engine. Jeff Scott -- Steven Phillabaum wrote: Some use heated air from the cowling as carb heat and or intake manifold heat. I agree with Colin that SOMETHING needs to be there for heat to the intake. Steven Phillabaum KR2S; 5048; corvair; Auburn, Alabama _ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:50:57 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: KR> Turnbuckles To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a couple of control turnbuckles on my KR2 that are bright metal (stainless steel? chrome plated?). I would like to buy a couple more, to use the barrels as aileron pushrods. Now, all I can find in Aircraft Spruce's catalogue is brass turnbucles. Any ideas? Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Coud" Paris, France ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:58:52 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yeah, I knew that too. But I also read carefully all available statistics on aircraft accidents in South Africa, and I saw that carb heat was almost never mentioned as a cause or even a contributing factor. What I just figured out now is why the Zenith/Stromberg does not ice easily. Because it hasn't got a Ventury. Simple. Serge Vidal larry flesner Envoyé par : krnet-bounces+serge.vidal=sagem.com@mylist.net 2005-09-28 15:47 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-09-28 15:50 Pour : KRnet cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : KR> Carb Heat/Carb ice > >Living in hot and sunny South Africa, where carb icing altogether is a >pretty rare occurrence, I felt happy with the answer, and I forgot about >it.. >Serge Vidal +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lycombing suggest the range of 20 to 90 degrees F for the possibility of carb icing. You could be getting a temp drop through the carb of 40+ degrees. Also mentioned was the fact that certified engines must be capable of raising the carb intake temp by 90 degrees F at 75% power. Your best chance for ice to form is on a warm (60 to 90 degree F) and humid day. Your carb may not have a venturi but the fuel vaporizing will cause a big temp drop and could contribute to carb ice. Do a google search for carb ice. Lots of info there. Larry Flesner _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:00:36 -0400 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY Subject: Re: KR> More carb ice? To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050928.100132.3736.2.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carb Ice forms when the Dew Point and OAT are close together, And vivible moisture is present, Virg On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:24:55 -0500 "L. D. Mueller" writes: > Here's an article from flycorvair's site on carb ice. More good > reading. > > http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html > > > L. D. Mueller > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 383 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================