From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 479 Date: 11/22/2005 9:00:30 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: R?f. : Re: KR> Civil unrest in Franc e?= (Robert L. Stone) 2. Re: Geared vs direct drive Turbo & my 2 cents (jeffyork40@qx.net) 3. Engines (JIM VANCE) 4. cutting sponge foam (Oscar Zuniga) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:15:02 -0600 From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: R?f. : Re: KR> Civil unrest in Franc e?= To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003701c5efc2$f30b8700$5d817646@yourat5qgaac3z> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Dear James, You are 100 percent correct in saying the KRNet should be confined to questions and answers concerning the building and flying of KR aircraft. I agree with you, the exception being when a tragedy such as the death of one of our group occurs. The primary reason the KRNet was established was for the exchange of ideas and advice on how to do something during the building process making it a very valuable resource for builders. The plans leave a lot of detail up to the builder and if he or she cannot figure out how to do it, there are 600 plus members who will have the answer. Anyway welcome to the net. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx, USA rstone4@hot.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES DUFF" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Réf. : Re: KR> Civil unrest in Franc e?= I'm fairly new to this group. Infact, this is my first post using the group email. With regards to this and also other posts I've read I'd like to offer a newcomer's opinion, and I expect it to be treated as such too. If this group used an online forum eg: www.cougarforum.co.uk of which I'm also a member I'd be all for such discussions. Such sites cost money however and KRNet uses this email group. Some of us are primarily interested in the aircraft and issues related to building and operating it (issues such as the tragic death of Steve Jones excepted) but not interested in sifting through 400 emails in our inboxes trying to identify something relevant and something that isn't. So in my personal opinion, and as a new builder who doesn't get time to access this email account often, I would prefer to keep posts on topic rather than covering issues I can read about in the news papers etc. Another topic which filled a page in my inbox was one on hypothetically building a KR using steel tube. Whilst this may be of interest to some, it definately isn't of interest to all members. I feel it must be remembered that with this being an email group, everyone receives every post whether they care or not. I must reiterate that if this were an online forum we could post off-topic issues all day and those who didn't care to read them could chose to ignore them. As it stands however, we are all hit with many emails which sometimes are not relevant and will enevitably be unwelcome to some members. With respect, Jamie Duff Aberdeen, Scotland billstarrs@peoplepc.com wrote: Serge any thing you have to say about your situation is sufficiently unique and interesting to justify sending to all of us . Thank you very much. Bill Starrs (KR1 completed) Clarkdale AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serge VIDAL" To: ; "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:04 AM Subject: Réf. : Re: KR> Civil unrest in France Hi, Isaac, and welcome. 300 jumps? Hmm... puts you well ahead of me, with my 30-odd static line ones. Maybe I should try and brag about the rest of the training I got in Saint-Cyr (that's the French equivalent of West Point)? Nah! Any position has it's counter, and here is not the place! Don't you agree? ;-) Don't worry. Nobody intends to turn the KR List into a political forum. But whenever one list member happens to be in a place that makes the news (like New Orleans recently), well, news and enlightened opinions tend to be welcome. Heated debates would be promptly censored by our zealous moderator anyway, so they happen off list. Around the world, the news media have grossly exagerated the extent of this rioting, and misinterpreted the causes, too. So, I just tried to explain what really happens here, from an insider's point of view. Funny, for as long as I can emember, you're the first builder to introduce himself by ethnicity (Incidentally, I just realized made the mistake of revealing my 25% of Moroccan blood myself in that post, which will probably attract a lot of prejudice, since brown is not exactly a color in fashion!) OK, case closed my side. Back to business. What are you building? How far are you? Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France isaac milton Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 2005-11-15 04:37 Veuillez répondre à rousedabout; Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-11-15 04:37 Pour : KRnet cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : Re: KR> Civil unrest in France Hi guys, I'm building in Boise Idaho, am African American by ethniticy, and was Army Special Forces for nearly 10 years... wounded in Panama in 89, relatively new pilot, but have taken off 300 more times than I've landed, so I feel comfortable with you guys. I enjoy the threads, it's helped me a lot, and I spend most of my evenings soaking it up. I'd appreciate, respectfully, if you leave the political opinions elsewhere, as any position has it's counter, and here is not the place. Don't you agree? Isaac Milton KR-2 ROUSEDABOUT Boise Idaho, USA --- Serge VIDAL wrote: > Hi, Phil, and all. > > Yep, I'm OK, the "civil unrest" is definitely not in > my street. Pity, > though, 'cause it would be a rare opportunity at > taking potshots at the > rioters! ;-) > > More seriously, the situation in France is quite > simple: around all large > cities, we have suburbs full of young Arabs and > Africans, whose fathers > came to France long ago when jobs were aplenty. > There are also lots of > illegal immigrants there, too. These guys probably > represent more than 10% > of the population now, although nobody knows for > sure, because the law > forbids to make statistics on an ethnic basis. > > In general, these populations failed to succeed, > despite the faboulous > help you get from the state (education is free, and > of good quality; > parents get monthly child education grants; > unemployed people get generous > pensions, and when these dry out, you get a "minimum > income" grant which > is about two thirds of minimum wages; public > transports are heavily > subsidised; and so on; the list is endless, as is > the list of taxes to > finance all that). > > These guys are simply not interested in becoming > "normal" citizens, and > blame everybody else for their failure. You don't > let them do whatever > they want? You're a racist, period! > > When France went under attack by Algerian > terrorists, each time the police > arrested or killed one, these guys would riot, in > support. For the past > ten years or so, they have celebrated on New Year's > Eve by burning cars > (about 500 a year). This time, the unrest has been > triggered by the fact > that two robbers ran away the police, hid inside an electrical > converter post, and killed themselves. > > Make no mistake. France is not an ethnically based > nation. We believe in > equal citizenship and common values, and our model > puts the state well > above communities. Religion and race are considered > private matters, and > don't get special statuses. We have always had lots > of migrants here. Just > look at me: father was half Spanish, half Moroccan; > mother is Swiss. The > guy sitting in front of me at the office is from > Italian origin. My > assistant is from South East Asia. > > But smooth integration does not seem to work with > these guys. > > In short, France now houses a large hostile and > useless population, and no > government will have the balls to deal with the > issue, for fear of being > branded racists, or insensitive, or whatever. They > will simply dump more > money into these suburbs, and raise more taxes to > pay for it. Their > subsidized housing will probably be repainted and > overhauled for the > umptenth time, so that they can vandalize it again. > > I'm afraid this country is doomed, because we seem > not to know the > difference between being human and being stupid. > > Serge Vidal > KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" > Paris, France > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:39:02 -0500 From: Subject: Re: KR> Geared vs direct drive Turbo & my 2 cents To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <012301c5efc6$5f703780$6464a8c0@server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Never had a 1835 so I can not make the comparison. I am going to open a can of worms with this statement, but here goes. I will start out by saying that I am completely intrigued with the Corvair power. I love Corvairs anyway but what the WW group has done is awesome. Sure wish I could have gotten a ride in one at the gathering. But aside from that my mind keeps going back to the extensive experience the VW conversion has in aircraft and the fact that I already have one. Here comes the trouble I am going to get myself into. With the VW I just feel that there is a lot more reliable power that should be available. I make that statement partly because of all the auto racing ( I know auto racing is not flying) experience the VW conversions have. There are companies like SCAT and others that are able to get lots more out of these engines (VW) and the availability of parts are so extensive for the VW engines that there should be a little more that can be gained by this experience. I know there are big differences in engine RPM's configurations and so on between the SCAT conversions and the VW engines we use,. But I believe that there is also a lot that can be applied to the VW engines from these types of VW engine conversions. Take for example the fact that my last several certified engines ( Cont and LYC) all used very tried and true , but very old technologies in fuel systems and so on. FADAC and several new to aircraft technologies are now being implemented. These seem very similar to systems that have been in automotive use for many years. To me the AERO VEE engine looks a little like the marriage of newer technologies to the older VW engine platform. Ok, I am kinda drifting off here but I am curious as to if a marriage of some of the older tried and true VW can be joined to the newer SCAT and AERO VEE to produce a reliable more powerful engine along the lines of the WW Corvair stuff. Thus giving greater performance with greater parts availability. Now, can I still throw in there that I think what Steve and Linda Bennet have done for the VW engine is absolutely awesome Jeff York KR-2 Flying N839BG Home page http://web.qx.net/jeffyork40/ My KR-2 http://web.qx.net/jeffyork40/Airplane/ to see my KR-2 Email jeffyork40@qx.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil brookman" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: Re: KR> Geared vs direct drive Turbo & my 2 cents > hi jeff did you upgrade from a 1835 by any chance just wondered how > much extra power you gained p > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:35 PM > Subject: Re: KR> Geared vs direct drive Turbo & my 2 cents > > > > I love this subject and have contemplated turbo charging my 2180 for quite > > some time. I feel I have extensive knowledge of turbo charging > > systems as > I > > have done extensive amounts of turbo and turbo engine work on > > automobile applications. > > > > However, and not to slight anyone here, I don't think I would ever > consider > > taking a turbo from one application and believe I could bolt it to > > my VW 2180 or a Corvair engine and expect success. > > > > I cut my teeth in turbo experimenting with automobiles. I will also credit > > much of the knowledge I gained came from many individuals involved > > in the > > Shelby Dodge Auto Clubs. Here is what I learned. Or, I could just > > cut to > the > > finish and suggest that if you want to turbo your airplane, start > > with a > > proven turbo and engine application and then make minor > > modifications as > you > > need. But back to what I learned. > > > > With a turbo several things are critical to it's success. > > I would say that the most important is proper air fuel ratio > > delivery and > > the ability to monitor that. In an aircraft , this would be highly > critical. > > I think more engines blow up ( turbo or normally aspirated) because > > they > get > > to a lean mixture condition. Adding a turbo makes this even more of > > an issue. For that matter, anything that increases horsepower makes > > fuel delivery very important. So, fuel injection would be my choice > > over a carb > > on this subject. I would also install an air fuel meter. > > > > You would also need to deal with the great deal of increased heat > > that a turbo creates. Both to your oil and probably even your air > > fuel mixture. Cooling the air fuel mixture can be done with and > > intercooler. The > increase > > in oil temps would be a challenge to your oil cooler and oil > > delivery system. You may also need to deal with the fact that when > > you shut off the > > engine, all that hot oil from your turbo will drain down to your > > engine , > > thus increasing oil temps after shut down. The most reliable > > automotive turbo's use both oil and engine coolant to keep the turbo > > cool. > > > > You also need a reliable way to regulate the waste gate. Or in other words > > you have to be able to keep the turbo from overboosting. Again, I believe > > you need to monitor this with a guage. If not you will never be able > > to > keep > > head gaskets on your engine. You would also burn holes in the tops > > of your > > pistons, burn valves and so on and so on. Speaking of valves, my > experience > > leads me to believe that you would need to change the exhaust valves > > on > your > > engine as well , in order to deal with the increased temps of combustion. > > This goes back to the idea of starting with a reliable engine turbo > > combination. > > > > I could go on and on with the subject of turbo charging. I would > > also say > > that I think it is the cheapest and best way to get more ponies and torque > > out of an engine. I also would guess that there are people on this > > list > that > > know 10 times more then me on turbo charging. But I qualify my information > > with the years I spent experimenting with turbo in automobiles and > > that I > > was able to take a 2.2 four cylinder engine of 140 horsepower and develop > a > > reliable dyno tested 360 HP with incredible amounts of torque. But, > > I did > > this using a tried and tested engine and turbo combination. I was > > able to > > take advantage of computerized controls for fuel delivery and waste > > gate controls. I was able to write my own computerized fuel tables > > and timing curves to assure air fuel mixture at various RPM ranges. > > This was all done > > via Engine ECU and interfacing a laptop computer. And the whole > > system > seems > > a little complex for a KR2. I also need to mention that I struggled > > with > all > > the items mentioned above. No big deal when on the ground ( ok maybe > > a few > > towing bills and head gaskets and parts and such) but I sure > > wouldn't want > > to have those issues in the air. > > > > I would still like to turbo an engine for my KR2. I am still unsure > > of the > > best, lightest and most reliable way to do it. Maybe I will start > > with > some > > Rev Master turbo parts and go from there. > > > > Jeff York > > KR-2 Flying > > N839BG > > Home page http://web.qx.net/jeffyork40/ > > My KR-2 http://web.qx.net/jeffyork40/Airplane/ to see my KR-2 > > Email jeffyork40@qx.net > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "hussein nagy" > > To: ; "KRnet" > > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 7:40 PM > > Subject: Re: KR> Geared vs direct drive > > > > > > > Hello, Colin, > > > I always enjoy you comments on subjects, I am an observer to the KRnet > > , I bought a KR2 Boat with retractable gear and tail dragger, I > > have no > > experience of building A/C but opinion of experienced folks count, > > Now > let > > ask you , I have the wing center Old aerfoil RAF48, Do you think > > the new > > aerofoil is woth it at this stage of the built, and changing to > > fixed > gear > > better than the retract fo KR2, when the new aerfoil instaaled do > > you > think > > that the elevator and the rudder will be resized. would like to > > know > your > > opinion, > > > Best regards > > > Nagy > > > Jacksinville, Florida > > > 904-543-8183 > > > > > > Colin Rainey wrote: Netters This > > > debate about best engines for experimentals, and whether to turbo, > > whether to Gear drive/PSRU or direct drive has been going on for a while > > now, and I suspect will probably continue, kind like the Ford/Chevy > debate > > (Chevy is best, LOL ). I am NOT going to take sides of whether a builder > > should choose auto or aircraft engine, normally aspirated or turbo, > > or direct drive or PSRU. All these things are in the archives, and > > found in > > literal volumes in other writings, both Internet and books like, > > "Auto Engines for Experimental Airplanes" by Robert Finch, just to > > sight one example. There are many others. > > > > > > What all Netters, especially you new members need to take to > > > heart is > > that engine selection is VERY important. Looking at certified > > aircraft, > you > > will see that it it the single most important factor when > > considering an > > aircraft's present value, how many hours on the engine. Of all the > expense > > of owning an aircraft, once it is completed, the most money you > > will > spend > > will be for the engine, and its up keep/maintenance. Turbo charging > > is > the > > cats meow for cheap horsepower, but just ask Orma Robbins about how this > > "enhancement" comes with its own unique set of problems to deal > > with and > > overcome. Also, the article sighted states that turbo charging generally > > adds at least 50% more power. This is out right fiction! The best > > that I > > have seen proven by dyno runs is approximately 40%, and this is > > with associated engine modifications, AND the use of an inter > > cooler, which is > > not mentioned in the article at all. B&M, Vortech, Banks Turbo-charging, > > and Paxton all report similar > > > values for their "bolt-on" systems. I am not saying that a turbo > > > or > > supercharger cannot add 50% or more power, but that rather that > > bolt on systems do not give that kind of increase, and do not want > > builders > running > > out and buying a turbo for their engine expecting to get a 50% > > increase > in > > power and torque by just hacking the exhaust in order to add the > > turbo. > > > > > > The same rules hold true for direct drive vs PSRU. There are > > > definite > > benefits to a PSRU, but to set one up on a 2.2 to 1 reduction, just > > to achieve maximum horsepower from an engine from a dyno run, and > > say that > is > > best does not take into account all phases of flight for the > > engine, only > > take off. That is the only time you will use max power. This amount > > of reduction although it makes the max power available according to > > the > dyno, > > it does not allow for a reasonable rpm for cruise. This is because > > the > prop > > will be slowed to 2000 to 2100 rpm, which begins putting it below > > its cruise efficiency speed. Just compare certified props that are > > made to > run > > in this range of rpms. They produce max thrust at near redline, and > produce > > best cruise thrust at 75 to 80% engine power. This puts the prop at > around > > 2300 to 2400 rpms on a 2750 redline. This puts the engine in the re drive > > at 5060 rpms for the 2300, and 5280 rpms for the 2400 rpms at the > > prop. > Now > > your engine is running > > > just like the Rotax family of engines and can expect the same > > > life, or > > simply 50 to 100 hour maintenance intervals with a major a max of > > 500 > hours > > out. It also makes the combination "peaky", where basically you > > spend literally all your time at or near peak rpm. > > > > > > Robert Finch's book details a lot of engines that have been > successfully > > used in direct drive configuration; the Buick V8, the VW family, > > the Corvairs, and several others mentioned in his book. In larger > > aircraft > that > > have more generous weight allowances for the engine, the more complicated > > and heavier engines have a good appeal. BUT for our applications, > > in > order > > to stay in the RECOMMENDED weight range of engines AND their > > output, > direct > > drive offers the best answers, and air cooled the simplest installation. > > Above all, it takes research and study to decide and engine install, and > > talking to other actual pilots of those engines. Don't get sucked > > into > the > > trap of some fancy numbers calculations and good advertising on one > > web page where one engine is presented as the experimental > > airplanes dream engine. There are a lot of "assumptions" and over > > generalizations made at > > the expense of the builder. No quick answers here. It takes years > > to > build > > a KR, take enough time to > > > study your engine completely BEFORE spending any money. > > > > > > > > > Colin Rainey > > > brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net > > > EarthLink Revolves Around You. > > > _______________________________________ > > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nagy hussein > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > > _______________________________________ > > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/176 - Release Date: 20/11/2005 > > > > ---------------------------------------- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has > removed 24549 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this > message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/176 - Release Date: 20/11/2005 > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:11:04 -0600 From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: KR> Engines To: "krnet" Message-ID: <001901c5efd3$289ad1e0$6a88f53f@Vance> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have been following the threads on engine modifications, and I want to add my two cents worth. You can boost the horsepower considerably--consider the 700 horsepower that dragsters get out of conventional blocks--for a few seconds. However, it is NOT a one way deal without a tradeoff. I have driven air-cooled bugs several hundred thousand miles. If you keep the valves adjusted and change oil whenever it feels gritty on the dipstick, you can safely expect 80 to 100 thousand miles out of the engine. However, if you put a supercharger on the engine (as I did), you quickly find out that the valves are the weakest link. You get them fixed, then you find that number three piston is quick to melt down. My point is that a standard engine is good for 2000+ hours. Each time you raise the horsepower 10%, you halve the life. You can quickly get to the point that you may get to your destination faster---maybe. I would rather take a little more time and KNOW that I am going to arrive. Jim Vance Vance@hbcomm.net ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:37:14 -0600 From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR> cutting sponge foam To: krnet@mylist.net, pietenpol-list@matronics.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just working on repairing the seat back on the Pietenpol and thought I'd post a tip that has been mentioned before but it works so well it's worth repeating. When cutting sponge foam such as is used for upholstery and cushions, use an electric knife. The one I use is one that came with a bread slicing setup, but most any electric knife will work. It cuts straight and clean through foams, unlike trying to use a knife or scissors. Mark your line on the foam with a Sharpie and just let the knife ease through. It'll cut as straight as you can mark a line with a ruler, or follow curves as needed. Be sure to rinse off the knife blades before you put the knife away, or your whole wheat bread will be "fortified" with foam dust next time you slice some ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 479 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================